From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #147 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, May 11 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 147 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Confessions and Joni's Best Albums ["Mike Hicks" ] Re: Confessions and Joni's Best Albums ["Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Confessions and Joni's Best Albums > From: Bobsart48@aol.com > Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 01:43:43 EDT > Subject: Re: Confessions and Joni's Best Albums > To: joni@smoe.org > Reply-to: Bobsart48@aol.com > There was a lesson in humility I learned there, that I hope to share with the > JMDL'er who asserted (as I recall - I deleted the digest, and have forgotten > his name - nothing personal) that he did not think that Blue was among Joni's > best albums, and that he has played it at most 5 times (perhaps that was an > exaggeration, but even so...) Based on my experience above, it is possible > that 5 times is not enough of a try. And if he considers that so many of her > real fans (note the album poll here) and her casual fans (note the VH1 all > time greatest album poll) rank it so highly, it is possible that exercising > the virtue of humility by listening to it a few more times will prove > rewarding for him. It certainly has been for me, as now I have been enjoying > THOSL, DJRD, S&L and all of her 90's stuff. Only 4 more to really explore > (Mingus and the 80's triad). Lucky me. > This must describe me. I confess. Blue has not done it for me. I continue to gather Joni albums on cd except for this one. (I only have a cassette for this) I will give it another try and another, but I think it's the fullness in musicianship that I really started liking with her music. I'm not a Joan Baez fan, and I like Judy Collins some. I need the fullness of surrounding musicianship with a group-sounding effort in most cases. This doesn't explain my passionate love for For the Roses. This was a pretty simple album musically compared to her stuff after this. This is a big exception. There are others. Karla Bonhoff comes to mind. Simple and beautiful music as does Nanci Griffith. I think maybe I wasn't into previous folk style music early on. I'm and old rock and roller so this may also have some bearing on my taste. However, I will give Blue some more time now that I have read your deal. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:47:32 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: Confessions and Joni's Best Albums In a message dated 5/10/01 1:54:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobsart48@aol.com writes: << I listened to it while riding a stationary bike. Nothing worked. I had disliked THOSL, and now this one seemed to leave me cold >> The thing I find sinful is that you disliked THOSL.I think it's fantastic.Have you given it another chance? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 08:13:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence You know, I never for a moment thought that our break-up was anything but my fault. Hindsight is 20/20, and here's, at least, what I see ... Joni's right. Always. Even when she's not. If she wants to go and make a less-than-sonically perfect record, then that's what she's going to do. My only mistake was trying to get in the way of that. But just for the record, I was well down the producing road long before I stuck my nose in where my ex-wife may or may not have thought it belonged -- I was just trying to act as the little angel on her right shoulder. Which wound up making me a colossal pain in her ass ... I should've known better. That I wound up a close friend is probably better than I deserve. That there are some folks out there, like my good ole pal Don (whom I've actually never met, but Peter Erskine tells me he's cool), who dig what I did for Joni remains my greatest, and sometimes, only solace. Larry Klein ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:51:12 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Sawdust in a Tube David Letterman made another reference to Joni last night. During a segment featuring 12 and 13 year old students and their science projects, one girl's experiment involved sawdust being shot from a tube. "Sawdust in a Tube," Letterman said, "Isn't that an old Joni Mitchell album?" I posted here a few months ago that during an earlier segment with students and their science projects, Letterman said, "'Liver in a Blender,' isn't that an old Joni Mitchell song?" I guess science projects make him think of Joni. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:07:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence - --- Kakki wrote: > For some surprising comments from Joni on Larry's > producer role in her > albums, you should read the Border Crossings article > at > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/0102bc.cfm (Don > Larry Klein Rowe should > cover his eyes and ears from this, though ; .... > the Joni collaboration doesn't > work for me. Maybe they > were too close to each other. This is really an excellent article. Joni makes a comparison between a producer interfering in the recording artist's vision of how their own work should be, comparing it to people interfering with a visual artist doing a painting. I think I can understand that - who wants kibbitzers standing around saying, you should do it *this* way; why are you using that colour? that sound? I'd be telling them where to go. By contrast, my husband, who is a painter, is always asking me for my opinion on what he's doing - which I don't like to give because a) I'm not an artist myself, so I can judge only what I like and not what is "right" b) to me art is more the process than the product - from what little experience I have had in art training (which consisted of a nightschool drawing class at the local high school and I had fun), the artist immerses themself in the work. I don't mind a little creative criticism from people whose opinion I respect, but the whole thing is so subjective anyway. I like colour and texture and I don't care if the product is realistic-looking or just blobs of colour, but for some people, that's important - what do I know? I've got lousy eyesight, so give me something colourful and textural and I'm happy! My husband always wants me to tell him what looks "more realistic, this one, or that one?" and I say, to a person with eyesight like mine, impressionism looks like reality when I'm not wearing my glasses, so don't even ask! When it comes to writing, an editor friend of mine once told me that a good editor shouldn't leave any footprints - that is, the editor should provide insight into making the writer's work better or easier to understand (and correct spelling, grammar mistakes), but they shouldn't rewrite it - the writer's voice needs to stay intact. There's a real art to being an editor. As anyone who has ever done any writing for a living can tell you, everyone's an editor - at least, they *think* they are! I can't imagine anyone of Joni's calibre being too happy with someone telling her how to "improve" her work. > I was thinking some more about the Spanish Steps in > "Only Joy in Town" - the > song is probably about the Roman Spanish Steps but > the lyrics really fit > with the scene in downtown L.A. I found a photo of > the L.A. steps at this > link for any interested > http://www.usc.edu/dept/geography/losangeles/lawalk/new/tower.html You've convinced me - now that I know about this, I think it's LA, rather than Rome. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:21:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Confessions and Joni's Best Albums Well, Bob, you are a brave one! Good for you! Confession is good for the soul and all that. For my part, I find it REFRESHING that someone admits to not liking Hejira. Most people seem reluctant to say anything bad about it, and many people almost worship it. Not that I dislike it - I don't dislike any of Joni's stuff, although some of it does take me a while to get into. But it goes to show you how diverse people's tastes are and, as far as I'm concerned, that's to everyone's betterment. (Although I have no idea why - something about learning something new everyday or some goofy thing like that.) I have my favourites (which change from day to day, month to month, year to year.) I rarely listen to any of the old stuff anymore. (Depending on your definition of old stuff.) OF the very early stuff, I listen most to Blue and Song to a seagull, but I don't listen to Clouds, and I keep forgetting that Ladies of the Canyon exists. Clouds doesn't do much for me anymore, although I loved it at the time; LOTC? I don't know why I keep forgetting it - it's a lovely album, but for some reason, when I try to do a Joni chronology in my head, I just forget this one. Hejira isn't one I listen to a lot because I think it's one of those where you probably have to devote your entire attention to it (or subconscious attention, maybe?) And I have a short attention span. Like Willy Loman, this one must be paid attention to! If I had heard Mingus when it first came out, I wonder what I would have thought? That's hard to say many years later, but I was kind of out of Joni-touch at the time, and only picked up Mingus a year or so ago. And I love it to pieces! Same with Don Juan which, again, I only got a short while ago. And Shadows and Light. These 3 are my Joni favourites right now - maybe because they're still new to me. Good for you - don't ever be afraid to state your opinion! - --- Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > > > Well, the Rev Vince didn't say anything about > absolution, but he promised > that there would be no penance.......so, here goes. > > I quit on what was then Joni's 'newer' stuff in the > late-70"s when I couldn't > "get into" Hejira (even after listening to it about > 50 times). I really > wanted to like the album. I listened to it in the > dark; I listened to it > while riding a stationary bike. Nothing worked. I > had disliked THOSL, and now > this one seemed to leave me cold. So I quit - after > Hejira, of all albums. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:27:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence - --- Don Rowe wrote: > You know, I never for a moment thought that our > break-up was anything but my fault. Hindsight is > 20/20, and here's, at least, what I see ... > > Joni's right. Always. Even when she's not. Larry. Baby. You crazy Russian, you. Take another Prozac and chill. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:29:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Sawdust in a Tube - vljc - --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > David Letterman made another reference to Joni last > night. > > During a segment featuring 12 and 13 year old > students and their science > projects, one girl's experiment involved sawdust > being shot from a tube. > "Sawdust in a Tube," Letterman said, "Isn't that an > old Joni Mitchell album?" I wonder if the writer who first wrote that gag gets residuals. If so s/he is probably rich by now. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:58:39 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Confessions and Joni's Best Albums > I quit on what was then Joni's 'newer' stuff in the late-70"s when I couldn't > "get into" Hejira (even after listening to it about 50 times). I really > wanted to like the album. I listened to it in the dark; I listened to it > while riding a stationary bike. Nothing worked. I had disliked THOSL, and now > this one seemed to leave me cold. So I quit - after Hejira, of all albums. > Ugh. I think THOSL was a watershed for a lot of people. I remember it took me a *long* time to finally 'get it'. It was so different, even from Court & Spark and miles away from STAS. If the concept of Joni being an 'artist' and the whole concept of 'artistic growth' hadn't just been put into my head, I think I might have said 'What is this weird shit? This isn't Joni!' and given up on her too. I actually knew somebody who was a big fan of Joni's who I played THOSL for and she said 'It's just not Joni!' But at that time I was learning that musicians, artists, creative people need to stretch their boundaries in order to remain vital & interesting. Joni wasn't about to stand still to please an audience or sell record. Not with Blue. Not with Court & Spark. Not even with Hejira. Not with Turbulent Indigo either. If she continues to produce music, it will go on changing & growing in new ways. Otherwise, she would stop. I don't think she's finished yet. I hope not, anyway. Blue was primarily an album of Heart and Soul (every song on the > album is passionate and romantic, pure emotion), whereas Hejira was primarily > one of Mind and Soul I love what you say here & agree 100% To me Blue is almost completely visceral and Hejira is cerebral. Blue is pure emotion. Hejira has the emotion plus almost relentless analysis of it. I must say that I have come to a greater appreciation of the musicality of Hejira because of all the 'fanatics' on this list. I still refuse to say it's her best! I am still a Taurus, after all! Even so, the proponents of one can (and more > often than not do) acknowledge the greatness of the other. > > For they are both "masterpieces" by my definition and standards. Both works > of a type that had never really been done before. Applause, applause! Great post! Mark in Seattle taking a couple of badly needed vacation days ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:27:16 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Confessions and Joni's Best Albums This doesn't explain my > passionate love for For the Roses. This was a pretty simple album > musically compared to her stuff after this. It's taken me a long time to fully appreciate For the Roses but now I'm convinced it's a hugely important record in Joni's output. Musically I think it's the bridge between Blue and Court & Spark and all of the incredible 70s albums that followed. I also think it's a clear indication that Joni had reached a new place in her personal growth. I was talking about FTR with my friend Melanie last weekend and we both agreed that Joni had just come into her full adult womanhood when she made it. There is a new strength & confidence in For the Roses. She would still have deep feelings, deep hurts, great joy but nothing was going to make her fall apart. She has no more illusions but she still 'will try to be there for you when your spirits start to sink.' She's strong but she's not made of stone. She still has compassion and a lot of love to give. I think it's very significant that one of the songs on FTR is called 'Lesson in Survival' (wish I'd thought of that before I wrote that damn essay!) The title and the song 'Woman of Heart and Mind' are also very significant. There you have Blue & Hejira summed up in 5 words. Melanie also said that the title is an indication that Joni has made up her mind that she's going to stay in the business and that she has realized that she has the courage and stamina to be her true self, follow her own vision, be competitive and 'run for the roses'. The Mama Lion has emerged. From here on she would be fearless. By all means, listen to Blue some more. It may not be rock & roll but it's an amazingly honest expression of a complex soul's emotions. Plus it has those incredibly beautiful melodies. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:34:40 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence <> Catherine, A good Producer is MILES away from a "kibbitzer"...they do what they do because they know what they know! They have a talent for bringing a more focused vision to a project. Some of my favorite producers: Daniel Lanois, Ted Templeman, Steve Lillywhite, Todd Rundgren (!!)Mitchell Froom, and Mitch Easter. Joni's painting analogy doesn't work because painting is a solitary effort. Making a record is a group effort, for the most part. Think of a film without a director, keeping the project's statement focused. Without the director, you'd have egotistical actors battling back and forth about how a scene should be acted out! That being said, Joni is one of a handful of artists that CAN produce themselves and be successful. BUT to think that nobody else could bring something better to a project is pretty arrogant, I think. TTT had great songs, and gets off to a grand start with the sonic contrasts of Harlem in Havana and MFM (although the piano version *IS* better). But after that, the great songs all start to SOUND the same. IMO, a producer could have brought a fresher perspective and turned out a more varied and a more successful (depending on how you measure 'success') project. One of the reasons that FTR works so well, as does C&S and HOSL, is the variance of the sonics of the record. Guitar songs, piano songs, orchestral sounds, it's like each song sounds so fresh, whereas with TTT you hear a song and think "didn't I just hear this one?" Don't get me wrong - I don't dislike TTT, I just think that (like DED) the right producer (working WITH Joni, if that's possible) could have made it more interesting. Bob NP: Me'Shell, "Sincerity" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:37:55 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: Confessions and Joni's Best Albums > Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 01:43:43 EDT > From: Bobsart48@aol.com > Subject: Re: Confessions and Joni's Best Albums Bob said.. > I quit on what was then Joni's 'newer' stuff in the late-70"s when I couldn't > "get into" Hejira (even after listening to it about 50 times). I really > wanted to like the album. I listened to it in the dark; I listened to it > while riding a stationary bike. Nothing worked. I had disliked THOSL, and now > this one seemed to leave me cold. So I quit - after Hejira, of all albums. > Ugh. ( I expect to hear the gasps in the distance, breaking the silence in my > office, when I 'send' these posted words). Wow Bob. G a s p . I'm choking here. Help me! > Then, a few years ago I picked up TI and liked it. That > got me to re-visit Hejira again. Lo and behold, I started to like it. Then > the tribute concert charged me up some more, and all of a sudden - I get it. > After almost 25 years, I finally came to the realization that it is one of > her (two ?) masterpieces (a defined term in my lexicon, to be sure). Phew. Thank God for that! > > There was a lesson in humility I learned there, that I hope to share with the > JMDL'er who asserted (as I recall - I deleted the digest, and have forgotten > his name - nothing personal) that he did not think that Blue was among Joni's > best albums, and that he has played it at most 5 times (perhaps that was an > exaggeration, but even so...) I was sharing a house in Clapham (London) when I got into Blue. I already liked S&L and Hejira, but hadn't heard much else of her music - certainly not early, 'high pitched' stuff like Blue. Someone moved into the room next to mine and had an album on constant rotation, featuring a very young Joni. I didn't really like her voice or all the soaring lines, but I heard it in the background so often that I got completely familiar with all the tunes, and after a while didn't mind the singing style so much. Then one evening, I was in the room when The Last Time I Saw Richard came on and I heard the words, and suddenly I was completely hooked. I listened to A Case Of You and fell further in love, and went out and bought the album. The lyrics to the title track got me next, and then all the rest in quick succession. Like I said, I was already into Hejira and S&L, but realised that I was really just listening to the music. I went back and for the first time, listened to the words on Heijra and fell in love with the album all over again. And then Wally, in another post said.. > i am bored by joni's chord progressions, > especially after CMIARS. And my confession is a 'me too' I'm afraid. But that doesn't mean I might not some day have a blinding revelation and come to love her later albums too. >bluehejira is the cornerstone. the beginning and > end. alpha/omega. anything else is literature. in my opinion, of course. > wallyK True. atb, Martin. In London. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:05:41 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Fwd: The Pompitous of Love Personality Test http://www.brunching.com/toys/toy-jokersmoker.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:52:04 -0500 From: mags Subject: Re: California now with Joni/Stan Rogers content Yael Harlap wrote: > > > <<< I once thought it would be really cool to make a mix that had all > California songs on it. (And I don't mean COVERS! :) > The ones I can think of right off the top of my head are: > Joni's "California" > Robert Bradley's Blackwater Surprise "California" (I really like this song > - it was on the soundtrack to Tubleweeds. which was a great little movie) > California Girls > California Dreamin' > Hotel California > > I know there are many more. If you can think of any, let me know!>>>> > Yael..... Stan Rogers, a wonderful Canadian singer/songwriter, wrote a song called "California" which is the last song on his album Northwest Passage. If you haven't heard this gentle giant's soulful, heartwarming voice...please do yourself a favour. Seems to me there are a few of Stan's fans, along with Brian and I, on our Joni list. He is precious beyond words. Beyond imaginings. Stan was an icon in the Canadian folk music scene, and still is for that matter. In the book, "An Unfinished Conversation, The Life and Music of Stan Rogers" a beautifully written tribute to Stan, Chris Gudgeon mentions Joni three times. I would like to quote one of the little passages: from p. 83: "So Blue" is an unabashed tribute to Canadian Joni Mitchell, whose jazz-influenced songwriting style had a tremendous impact on Stan." lots of love Mags now listening with Brian to: California, Stan Rogers. - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:17:55 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence > That being said, Joni is one of a handful of artists that CAN produce themselves and be successful. BUT to think that nobody else could bring something better to a project is pretty arrogant, I think. In Joni's case I don't think it is arrogant. Joni is one of the few people in the music business who has a complete vision of what she wants her records to sound like and knows how to get it. If she lets someone else tamper with it, it becomes less her own vision and begins to become partly someone else's work. Arrogant or not, I admire her for sticking to her guns & insisting on having things her own way. Although the idea of Joni working with Daniel Lanois is intriguing, I hope she never does it. I want to hear whatever ideas she wants to present in whatever way she chooses to present them. I may not always go hog wild over them, but I will always listen with respect to what she has to say. TTT had great songs, and gets off to a grand start with the sonic contrasts of Harlem in Havana and MFM (although the piano version *IS* better). But after that, the great songs all start to SOUND the same. IMO, a producer could have brought a fresher perspective and turned out a more varied and a more successful (depending on how you measure 'success') project. I don't think TTT was supposed to have a lot of variation in mood & color. In that respect it's a lot like Hejira, imo. It does have a couple of songs that jolt you out of that kind of laid back mood, Harlem in Havana & the infamous 'Lead Balloon'. But I don't think the rest of it all sounds completely the same. There are subtle variations in mood & color from one song to the next. Just like there are on Hejira. I really don't understand why people think this is a 'weak' album. I think it's gorgeous and I was a bit disappointed when she said she wasn't going to do any more original stuff for awhile after she released TTT. Maybe in another 20 years people will begin to appreciate TTT the way they do Hejira. I really wonder if there is a prejudice against electronic music here, at least when Joni does it. WTRF , DED, CMIARS and TTT seem to get the most criticism from people on this list. TTT at least (imo anyway) doesn't deserve it. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 21:11:22 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence Larry wrote: > You know, I never for a moment thought that our > break-up was anything but my fault. Hindsight is > 20/20, and here's, at least, what I see ... Oh now, this is sad. Cheer up - she did her best paintings during your time together - see, it all worked out afterall. ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 06:03:52 From: "William Waddell" Subject: JMDLers and Joni "on" Letterman Hi y'all! Back from the hardships of travelling from Indonesia to Texas via Judy's Chelsea. Catching Rose, Alison, Lori, Debra, Patrick and Lahm himself made the trek worth it. Also Paz, Julius and Diane in New Orleans for the Jazz Fest. I'm a happier person for having met you all. Anyway, did anyone catch Letterman's "witty" reference to Joni? Willy the Shake _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #147 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?