From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #146 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, May 10 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 146 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Elm Street for the masses ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Sus chords? ["Victor Johnson" ] Weekend Magazine Article 1969 "Mr. Peepers" [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Sus chords? [Don Rowe ] Re: Border Crossings interview [Catherine McKay ] Re: Sus chords? [Catherine McKay ] Re: Weekend Magazine Article 1969 "Mr. Peepers" [Catherine McKay ] Prince & Joni [farneddy@mindspring.com] Re: Prince & Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Sus chords? [FredNow@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence ["Kakki" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence ["cassy" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 05:57:39 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Elm Street for the masses i can see kerry and john!!!!! this is so exciting. which one are you rick? the guy with the glasses [i think] in the plaid shirt? wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de susan+rick Enviado el: Martes, 08 de Mayo de 2001 04:27 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Elm Street for the masses Plus on page 100 you can see me, John (behind a digital camera), and Kerry at the front of the crowd at the opening of the Mendel exhibit (Kerry and John are wearing Both Sides Now t-shirts and I'm holding a camera beside my head.) Ranger Rick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:42:26 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Sus chords? A sus chord simply means sustaining (playing) a note that wouldn't ordinarily be heard in the chord. For example, a Cmajor sus 2 would mean a C major chord with a D in it(D is the second note in the C scale), or a G minor sus6 would mean a G minor chord with an E. Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Just beyond the morning falls the river of your dreams, Escaping from the day these wild creatures run away." Victor Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:53:44 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Weekend Magazine Article 1969 "Mr. Peepers" When I read this article I laughed my ass off. My cat happens to be named Mr. Peepers. I still like Kakki's idea. We should try the trojan cat thing and lure Joni to JoniFest this year. After the show, a girl wearing a paisley jump suit comes up carrying a dove in a cage. "Joni, this is Mr. Peepers. He likes you. Won't you come away with Mr. Peepers and me. We love you Joni. Please come." Mr. Peepers strikes out as do all stage-door Johnnies on this kind of road. http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/690111wm.cfm - -Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:41:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Sus chords? - --- CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: > Can any of the musicians here > explain exactly what a sus > chord is? > Sus is shorthand for "suspension". It is a harmonic device where one note in a chord is held, while the notes of another are played. This creates a "dissonance" in the harmony, typically resolved by lowering the suspended note to a "consonant" position in the triad. For example, a Dsus4 chord would be d-G-a-d ... the "suspended" note is G (the 4th tone in the D Major scale). The dissonance would be resolved by lowering the "G" a halftone, to the standard D Major chord: d-F#-a-d. Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:09:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Border Crossings interview - --- Kakki wrote: > > Well, I have to make an admission here - when I > first heard the song and > read the lyrics I thought she was referring to the > Spanish Steps in downtown > L.A. where there used to be a black man who stood > nearby everyday with > flowers in his hair and who sometimes serenaded the > noontime lunch crowd > passing by on saxophone! Other times he would just > sing out something from > like Stevie Wonder. He was always joyful and > definitely drank in the crowd > like oxygen. Maybe it's Joni's duality at work > again. I definitely could > adapt the song to my own experiences ;-) > Kakki, are you serious? If so, that's probably it. I would have thought Rome too, but this sounds like the very guy Joni's singing about. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:13:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Sus chords? - --- CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: > This interview was absolutely extraordinary. I > could listen to Joni talk > all day. > > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/0102bc.cfm > > When my own music has been written out by others, > I've seen that I also use a > lot of sus chords. Can any of the musicians here > explain exactly what a sus > chord is? > There are more expert musicians and theory experts here who could probably explain this better than I, but a sus chord is a suspended chord - a suspended 2nd or a suspended 4th added to the 1, 3, 5 of the regular major or minor chord. It does provide a feeling of suspense because you're in suspense as you wait for it to resolve by moving back up (or down) to the 1-3-5 chord. I always think of it as kind of a breath in (as you wait for the resolution) followed by the "Ahhhh" of breath out (as the resolution is achieved.) I am very fond of sus chords as well. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:15:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Weekend Magazine Article 1969 "Mr. Peepers" - --- RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: > When I read this article I laughed my ass off. My > cat happens to be named Mr. > Peepers. I still like Kakki's idea. We should try > the trojan cat thing and > lure Joni to JoniFest this year. > > After the show, a girl wearing a paisley jump suit > comes up carrying a dove > in a cage. "Joni, this is Mr. Peepers. He likes you. > Won't you come away with > Mr. Peepers and me. We love you Joni. Please come." > Mr. Peepers strikes out > as do all stage-door Johnnies on this kind of road. > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/690111wm.cfm > Scary, ain't it? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:31:44 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Border Crossings interview > Kakki, are you serious? If so, that's probably it. I > would have thought Rome too, but this sounds like the > very guy Joni's singing about. Yes, I'm serious and it was another one of those Joni songs that hit a little too close (literally) to home for me - I remember wondering why Joni would be ever be over in downtown L.A. at lunchtime and then imagined she might have been visiting her lawyers ;-) The theme runs true - there is not much joy in downtown - just a lot of lawyers, bankers and those who work for them, who are always scurrying and under the pressure cooker. This man who greeted us and sang to us each day was like the "only joy in town" in a sense. I haven't seen him in a few years and wonder what happened to him. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:34:27 -0400 From: farneddy@mindspring.com Subject: Prince & Joni I havent posted in a long time, but the Prince and Joni thread got me interested in chiming in again. I was a Prince fan before I discovered Joni, and was always drawn to his songs with more interesting harmonic colors. My favorite Prince song is "Sometimes it Snows in April". When I got into Joni and got Court and Spark, I was immediatly struck by the similarities. There are string and vocal arrangments, particularly in Car on a Hill and Down to You, which made me exclaclaim "How very Prince circa Around the World in a Day & Parade", then I realized Court and Spark came out about 10 years before ATWIAD, meaning ATWIAD and Parade are very Joni circa Court and Spark. I also wonder how much this Joni connection has to do with Wendy & Lisa. W & L have been heavily influenced by Joni and contributed a lot of material, including arrangments to Around the World in a Day and Parade, which are my favorite and in my opinion his most Joni influenced work. I highly recommned thier solo! ! work, esp "Eroica" and thier most recent "Girl Bros" I am sure most of us have heard by now that Prince quotes "Help Me" in "The Ballad of Dorothy Parker" (...mind if I turn on the radio..and it was Joni singing "Help me I think I'm fallin" )I have heard so many more Joni influences in his work over the years, a good example is the string arrangments/chordal changes on the Batman album. (listen to the song Electric Chair, who else but Prince would write a line like "You took my mind out, like a G flat major with an E in the bass" and have the melody and bass in the arragment actually be a [GbMaj/E bass], and the word "flat" is sung by a seperate background voice, giving the chord a sense of "being flatted" at that moment). There are certain approaces to tome color and harmonization that Primce picked up on that I think are a big part of what draws me to both artists. This leads me to point out that Joni is often compared to people like Joan Baez & Bob Dylan and more recently people like Tracy Chapman and other (as much as I love them ) more traditional folk artists. Joni actually has a lot more in common with Stevie Wonder, Prince, jazz artists like Miles Davis & Cassandra Wilson, and Bjork and Ani Difranco (esp. her new double album)!! There are also colorings of Joni in the work of the Indigo Girls, particularly in Emily's choice of guitar chords. I almost forgot Jill Scott, Erykah Badu and Lauren Hill. When I think of who is like Joni, I dont think genre, which is why I think of people in jazz, neo-soul/hip-hop etc. what all these people have in common with Joni, is essentially "Painting with Words and Music". They all reach for interesting colors to paint with, colors of emotions, sounda ! ! of landscapes, cityscapes, icelandic glaciers,and other environments, words which evoke images, smells, etc. These are people who tend to create a world, a stylization all thier own. This is the common thread of artists like Joni. I think one of the reasons Joni is so influential is that she was the first to do this kind of thing in a "pop" framework, saying that popular music could be so much more than 3 minute excuses for the chorus to get stuck in your head. - --my $1 and 50 cents Frederick D. Freeman Hear my music at www.mp3.com/freddyfreeman My homepage http://farneddy.home.mindspring.com/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:23:45 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Prince & Joni <> On the acoustic CD that was a part of his "Crystal Ball" project, there's a song called "Circle De Amour" that not only sounds like a Joni song, but talks about the girls growing up and getting 'caught up in The Circle Game'... Probably more if you do an analysis of his musical structure. His 90's output gets razzed a lot, but I think it stands with the best of what he did in the 80's. "Emancipation" in particular may be the most underrated release of the 90's! Thanks for a great post! Bob NP: Bob Mould, "Hair Stew" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 17:31:22 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Sus chords? In a message dated 5/9/01 2:27:13 AM, CarltonCT@aol.com writes: >When my own music has been written out by others, I've seen that I also >use a lot of sus chords. Can any of the musicians here explain exactly what >a sus chord is? "Sus" is short for "suspended." Sus chords have neither major nor minor tonality. Tonality is determined by the third degree of the scale, which is either major (four half-steps above the root) or minor (three half-steps above the root). In a sus chord, the fourth or second (or both) degree of the scale is suspended without resolving to the third degree, so their tonality hangs in the balance. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 20:04:40 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence Larry's influence on Joni's 80s/90s work is clear, but I'm not sure it's safe to say he he had a negative effect on the quality. It would be hard to pin this all down anyway. One could hardly compare WTRF and DED favorably to the 70's classics. On the other hand, Klein clearly was closely involved in TI, and it stands as one of her better works. He was less involved in TTT and it is one of her weaker works. As for what's next: my vote is for a straight-ahead jazz album, recorded with a quartet or quintet. But I don't think that's likely to happen. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 18:58:21 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence Brian wrote: > Larry's influence on Joni's 80s/90s work is clear, but I'm not sure it's safe to say he he had a negative effect on the quality. >It would be hard to pin this all down anyway. One could hardly compare WTRF and DED >favorably to the 70's classics. >On the other hand, Klein clearly was closely involved in TI, and it stands as one of her better works. He was less involved in >TTT and it is one of her weaker works. For some surprising comments from Joni on Larry's producer role in her albums, you should read the Border Crossings article at http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/0102bc.cfm (Don Larry Klein Rowe should cover his eyes and ears from this, though ;-) I think Klein is an incredible musician and great producer on other's albums like Shawn, Julia Fordham, etc., but the Joni collaboration doesn't work for me. Maybe they were too close to each other. I was thinking some more about the Spanish Steps in "Only Joy in Town" - the song is probably about the Roman Spanish Steps but the lyrics really fit with the scene in downtown L.A. I found a photo of the L.A. steps at this link for any interested http://www.usc.edu/dept/geography/losangeles/lawalk/new/tower.html This must be an early shot because it's much more pretty around there now and there are several wonderful sculptures by Robert Graham (Anjelica Huston's) husband around the area. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 23:22:16 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Prince & Joni I agree with Frederick on just about all of these musical similarities between Prince and Joni. I discovered Prince after hearing he was influenced by Joni, and I found these influences particularly evidient on Around the World in a Day. The piano intro to Condition of the Heart is very joni-esque. And, is the Mr. McGee in Raspberry Beret--"I was working part time at a five and dime, my boss was Mr. McGee" the same McGee in Paprika Plains--"With their tassled teams they came to McGee's General Store." ? I think this may be another of Prince's tip o' the hat to our Joan. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 20:30:13 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Prince & Joni farneddy@mindspring.com wrote: > I also wonder how much this Joni connection has to do with Wendy & Lisa. W & L have been heavily influenced by Joni Prince has declared his admiration for Joni publicly, and Joni in turn has said that she remembers this "birdlike" (she had some more apt description, I forget) guy in the front row at one of her shows that was concentrating intensely on her performance, so she sang the rest of the show right to him. This would have been before he became known. RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 23:41:52 -0500 From: "cassy" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence From: BRYAN8847@aol.com >>> Larry's influence on Joni's 80s/90s work is clear, but I'm not sure it's safe to say he he had a negative effect on the quality. It would be hard to pin this all down anyway. One could hardly compare WTRF and DED favorably to the 70's classics. On the other hand, Klein clearly was closely involved in TI, and it stands as one of her better works. He was less involved in TTT and it is one of her weaker works. As for what's next: my vote is for a straight-ahead jazz album, recorded with a quartet or quintet. But I don't think that's likely to happen. <<< It's just my opinion, but I always felt that Larry Klein thought so highly of Joni's composing that he, like us, couldn't understand her lack of commercial success... (read record sales). I believe that it was his intention to direct her into a more commercial appeal to the masses and may have influenced her approach to her music in that light. Joni strikes me as a woman who gives her all to her music, her man, life in general and I am convinced Larry greatly influenced her approach to her music during their time as "lovers" but that his motives were to make her appeal to a broader audience. I realize that Mr. Klein is still involved in her life and music and that he undoubtedly gives his opinions and offers advice... I suspect she takes a little less of that advice now that they are no longer involved romantically. By the timed Turbulent Indigo came about, I think Larry had realized that Joni knew what she was doing and while he could offer some suggestions, she was going to, ultimately, do it her way regardless of his input. Cassy N.P. Willy Porter "Boab Tree" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 20:58:57 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #212 -- LK influence Cassy wrote: > It's just my opinion, but I always felt that Larry Klein thought so > highly of Joni's composing that he, like us, couldn't understand her > lack of commercial success... (read record sales). I believe that it > was his intention to direct her into a more commercial appeal to the > masses and may have influenced her approach to her music in that > light. Joni strikes me as a woman who gives her all to her music, her > man, life in general and I am convinced Larry greatly influenced her > approach to her music during their time as "lovers" but that his > motives were to make her appeal to a broader audience. I agree and think his motives were very well-intentioned. And to be fair to him, I think he/they succeeded on many levels because there are a number of people on the list who absolutely love the 80s Joni music. I love most of the songs from the 80s albums myself, but each one as a totality didn't knock me away in like most of her others did on the first or fifitieth listen. I always felt like a part of her was being "diluted" or "altered" or something on them - guess I'm just a purist or maybe a Joni provincialist ;-) I think she's just too unique for attempts at a new "packaging" by others. Geffen's lack of real promotion didn't help the situation, either. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 01:43:43 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Confessions and Joni's Best Albums On Sunday, May 6, I wrote: "I am a stupid................Oops - no time now for the other confession - by the way, when one posts a confession on the list, does the Reverand Vince mete out the penance ? I need to know, cause the next sin's pretty bad. :-) " Well, the Rev Vince didn't say anything about absolution, but he promised that there would be no penance.......so, here goes. I quit on what was then Joni's 'newer' stuff in the late-70"s when I couldn't "get into" Hejira (even after listening to it about 50 times). I really wanted to like the album. I listened to it in the dark; I listened to it while riding a stationary bike. Nothing worked. I had disliked THOSL, and now this one seemed to leave me cold. So I quit - after Hejira, of all albums. Ugh. ( I expect to hear the gasps in the distance, breaking the silence in my office, when I 'send' these posted words). I stopped buying her albums (I did end up buying WTRF, but that did nothing to dissuade me from my previous analysis). So for 20 years I played only her first 6 albums (listening to the other three named above once a year or so to convince myself I was "right"). All the while, mind you, I still considered her "the one", and how could the world not see that? Then, a few years ago I picked up TI and liked it. That got me to re-visit Hejira again. Lo and behold, I started to like it. Then the tribute concert charged me up some more, and all of a sudden - I get it. After almost 25 years, I finally came to the realization that it is one of her (two ?) masterpieces (a defined term in my lexicon, to be sure). There was a lesson in humility I learned there, that I hope to share with the JMDL'er who asserted (as I recall - I deleted the digest, and have forgotten his name - nothing personal) that he did not think that Blue was among Joni's best albums, and that he has played it at most 5 times (perhaps that was an exaggeration, but even so...) Based on my experience above, it is possible that 5 times is not enough of a try. And if he considers that so many of her real fans (note the album poll here) and her casual fans (note the VH1 all time greatest album poll) rank it so highly, it is possible that exercising the virtue of humility by listening to it a few more times will prove rewarding for him. It certainly has been for me, as now I have been enjoying THOSL, DJRD, S&L and all of her 90's stuff. Only 4 more to really explore (Mingus and the 80's triad). Lucky me. Of course, it is possible I suppose to not come to love (or even like) Blue. I have a theory about that. In between Blue and Hejira, Joni sang herself to be a "Woman of Heart and Mind". To that I think we would all agree to add "Soul". Blue was primarily an album of Heart and Soul (every song on the album is passionate and romantic, pure emotion), whereas Hejira was primarily one of Mind and Soul (to paraphrase Joni in her "Painting With Words and Music" video, in the intro to one of the songs from Hejira, 'we're still on the road, but we're thinking, we're thinking"). Many (perhaps most) of us have had one or two periods in our lives where romance and passion dominated our thoughts and dreams. If one encountered Blue during such a period (particularly at or around the time Blue was released), it would have been virtually impossible IMHO to not come under its spell. And for those of us who are no longer in that mode, listening to Blue helps us remember (if not recapture) the precious feelings of such times. Some may have encountered Blue after that period in their lives had come and gone, and/or after having immersed themselves in Hejira (which is clearly the more sophisticated work musically, Joni having had the benefit of five additional years of growth as a musician as well as amazing support from her world class back-up musicians). In such cases, I can understand Blue appearing to be of lesser stature in some respects (although the melody lines in Blue are unparalleled, and the spare musicianship so tasteful and consonant with the songs). Finally, for those who prefer jazz sounds to more classical ones, the preference must be to Hejira. Even so, the proponents of one can (and more often than not do) acknowledge the greatness of the other. For they are both "masterpieces" by my definition and standards. Both works of a type that had never really been done before. Both works of incredible excellence and consistency (not a bad cut on either album - although I was ambivalent about Little Green until I found out what it was about - that sure changed my view). Both albums of integrated themes and perspectives - individual songs that belong together in a collection, masterfully sequenced. Both albums featuring wonderful melodies, lyrics, singing, arrangements and musicianship. Then there are the other 15 JM albums that most other artists would have considered their masterpieces had they produced them. :-) PS: In the Welcome to the JMDL it is written "We are generally a mature, thoughtful bunch who are mostly supportive of Joni and her work. However, that does not mean we are a bunch of starry-eyed fanatics, either". In my case, Les, I am afraid I must demur on all accounts. As for the group as a whole, I will go along with the mature and thoughtful part, but whom do we think we are kidding about not being "fans" (short, in the parlance, for SEF's) ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 03:15:55 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: that thing called bluehejira my time to confess. however much i try, i could never choose between blue and hejira. i can do the top 10 thing with all the others. but to me blue and hejira are two incarnations of the same soul. i am not making a statement here, i am just telling you how it is for me. i have never understood why or how come so many people around the world say that court and spark is their favorite album. everything i know about life i learned form that entity called bluehejira. if your life has been different, then i can't explain this to you. i have been cursed with many disabilities, among which is my lack of interest in most things joni did after mingus. i sincerely apologize but i don't like TTT, NRH, TI, BSN, and S&L. i am amused by WTRF and CMIARS. i dislike joni's voice nowadays. i am bored by joni's chord progressions, especially after CMIARS. it happened like this. i liked mingus at once. i thought S&L was very shrill but i liked a couple of tracks. after that, i was doomed. i started LIKING, i stopped believing. i could always find a couple of tracks that justified having bought the album, but no more satori. mind you: i think that i'm very spoiled because joni got me used to expecting only revelations and wisdom. i still consider any ''bad'' joni mitchell song better than many ''good'' songs by many other artists. but between you and me, bluehejira is the cornerstone. the beginning and end. alpha/omega. anything else is literature. in my opinion, of course. wallyK ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #146 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?