From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #130 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, April 24 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 130 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- under the covers ["shane mattison" ] Re: Walk on By and misc. [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: COYOTE & Renaldo and Clara [RoseMJoy@aol.com] RV: Coyote/djrd coincidence [or is it???] ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: RV: Coyote/djrd coincidence [or is it???] [Mark Domyancich ] Duncan Sheik covers Joni [Steve Dulson ] Re: the album form(ljc) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: the album form(ljc) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Coyote mystery [MP123A321@aol.com] Re: QuadHissing on EBay/ Rolling Thunder/renaldo and clara [MP123A321@aol] Re: the album form [Randy Remote ] Re: the album form ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: Duncan Sheik covers Joni [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: the album form [catman ] Down with TLAs! [Doug Brode ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 [Doug Brode ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 [Doug Brode ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 [catman ] Coyote [Steve Dulson ] Duncan Shiek covers Joni ["Sue Cameron" ] Re: Duncan Shiek covers Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 ["Deb Messling" ] Fw: 1972 McGovern Campaign trail ["janine sherman" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: the album form [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: the album form [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Japanese Joni Import Cd & Video ["Christopher J. Treacy" ] Re: the album form ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: the album form ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: the album form/fair use and libraries... ["Brenda J. Walker" Subject: under the covers well, i was thinkin' covers...surprise...and i was thinkin', annie lennox should do joni....and then what do you know, i found annie's cover for 'ladies of the canyon', bought it on cd...and loved every inch of it...annie lennox is a real fav of mine, so listening to her sultry rendition was a joy... ....an' i think its cool the whole sam the man thing...to mi mind he's a great playwrite...he did win the pu...won't try to spell that one...but some of his images and symbols fit in nicely with some of joni's....deserts, coyotes, L.A., rockn'roll,....many others....eagles...hawks...sam is an student of the archetypes of the west...and the frustrations in finding satisfying union.......it isn't too cliche to say that love hurts like hell....damn, does it ever... ....and when you're dry as a lizards crotch in tucson in trying to find the right words for a song...it kinda did me good to listen to you cats at 2 in the morning... thanx, shane no blame http://www.angelfire.com/art/cactussong ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:31:39 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Walk on By and misc. > Does BBC2 release these series on video at a later date? I would love to be > able to buy a copy of this segment. > Kakki, I can make you a copy of all the series so far. But then we'll have the usual problem of getting it converted to that inferior NTSC system you have in the states. Our friend Rob from the UK used to be good at video conversions, I wonder where he went. But I'm sure we can work something out. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:38:47 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: COYOTE & Renaldo and Clara You all have me convinced it's Sam Shepard. Which leads me to Dylan, does anyone have a decent copy of Renaldo and Clara? - -Rose in NJ rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:21:10 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RV: Coyote/djrd coincidence [or is it???] Very interesting stuff, guys. One thing though: I'm pretty sure Joni was *performing* Coyote on the Rolling Thunder Revue. It was on the radio. It must have been written before the Revue, not during. Wally said: you know how coyote and djrd [the song] seem to be so intimately related [because of some of the chords and stuff]. well i've just realized that DJRD could be about ... sam shepard!!!! ''i'm don juan's reckless daughter, i came out two days on your tail...''. joni was born on november 7, 1943 and sam shepard on november 5, 1943. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:43:13 -0500 From: James Leahy Subject: Coyote This Sam Shepard/Coyote connection is interesting. Recall that in the Cameron Crowe interview, Joni was very mysterious explaining why she didn't want to appear in the Renaldo and Clara film: "I preferred to be invisible. [Laughs nervously] I've got my own reasons why." She was breaking up with her then-boyfriend (John Guerin?) and was in physical pain during the tour. Also, when she sang "Coyote" during the tour, she said that it was a work in progress and there were still verses to be written. This was December 1975. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:50:15 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: RV: Coyote/djrd coincidence [or is it???] On the Boston Music Hall show from 1976, Joni says before the Coyote>DJRD medley that Coyote was written when she passed through there last November. Any guesses on when DJRD was written? December maybe? Interesting footnote: Furry Sings The Blues was also written on that tour. Mark At 8:21 AM -0400 4/23/01, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: >Very interesting stuff, guys. One thing though: I'm pretty sure Joni was >*performing* Coyote on the Rolling Thunder Revue. It was on the radio. It >must have been written before the Revue, not during. > > >Wally said: >you know how coyote and djrd [the song] seem to be so intimately related >[because of some of the chords and stuff]. >well i've just realized that DJRD could be about ... sam shepard!!!! >''i'm don juan's reckless daughter, i came out two days on your tail...''. >joni was born on november 7, 1943 and sam shepard on november 5, 1943. > > >Lama ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:28:09 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: RV: Coyote/djrd coincidence [or is it???] <> Wonder if she wrote "Talk To Me" at the same time as it too popped up on that tour? Bob NP: David Lindley, "Catfoot Sandwiches" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:35:50 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: RV: Coyote/djrd coincidence [or is it???] I once heard it was a b-side to one of the HOSL singles, so it might have been recorded during those sessions. Her voice, to me, sounds younger on DJRD compared to the other songs on that album. Of course Bob, we both know it was still in development when I think about the St. Louis '76 show! :) NP-Joni, Webley '83-Free Man In Paris At 11:28 AM -0400 4/23/01, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: ><> > >Wonder if she wrote "Talk To Me" at the same time as it too popped >up on that tour? > >Bob > >NP: David Lindley, "Catfoot Sandwiches" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:58:31 -0400 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Re: the album form(ljc) The problem with music today is that it is no longer about creating a quality product and saying something meaningful. It is about cracking the top 10 and making money, which is why the likes of Britney, Christina, and NSuck have taken over the airwaves. Rock bands are few and far between, most of them never have more than one hit single and the songs on the album are mainly filler material. Bands, I believe, used to be about changing and shaping their music into something meaningful and real. Growing and experimenting. There are still exceptions but the shit that is out there is overwhelming. I cringe when I watch MTV because I am either (a) inundated with extremely sexual innuendo which is totally unappropriate for 4pm (cinemax is more tame) or (b) bubblegummed to death by the likes of anorexic women with no clothing and no talent. Radio only reiterates this because most of the stations play the same 10 songs, even if they are not your typical "hit radio station". The music industry has become somewhat of an arm of the celebrity machine and marketing has everything to do with how successful this crap becomes. It is no longer about liking a band and eagerly awaiting their next album, it is more like waiting for the "Next Big Thing". When you ask most 22 year olds about Joni Mitchell they have no idea who she is, and that has happened to me before so I am not just saying that. It is disheartening to realize that most kids who grow up in this country are subjected to such mindless shit, and they don't even realize it. >From: Bruce Kimerer >Reply-To: Bruce Kimerer >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: the album form >Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 18:25:51 -0400 > >Jim, your comments on the album form are so true. > > > From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" > > Subject: Joni's popularity in the 70's, SJC > > > > > > By then "Rock" was an Album Oriented Radio format and it was just about > > custom made for the Singer-Songwriters. So, no, Joni didn't have to >sell 45 > > rpm singles because she was selling the higher-priced LPs. (If I >remember > > right, the "single" market _was_ the 45rpm singles's sales market. I > > believe that the Billboard pop "singles chart" was not based on radio >play > > then, but only on reported sales of 45s. (There was no music video >channel > > then.) > > > >Many of the most major bands at the time never had hit singles, yet were >considered very commercially successful. (I don't think CSNY charted in the >top 40.) Today, it's a singles world again, with MTV and now Napster. Music >is >consumed one song at a time. The huge appeal of Napster is largely based on >the fact that young people don't want to bother with all the 'extra' stuff >an album contains. Too much trouble. Too much concentration. Too much time. >That's also why artists today have such short shelf lives. There is no >sustained 'band loyalty,' where fans eagerly follow an artist from one >record to the next because they are interested in whatever new things >he/she has to say. >(Of course, this is as true for people my age -- 48 -- as it is true for >people half my age.) I think I read that Paul Simon has sold less than >100,000 copies of his most recent album, a fine -- and entertaining -- >piece of work. > >Bruce _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:47:26 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: the album form Bruce Kimerer wrote: > Today, it's a singles world again, with MTV and now Napster. Music is > consumed one song at a time. The huge appeal of Napster is largely based on the fact that young people don't want to bother with all the 'extra' stuff an album contains. Too much trouble. Too much concentration. Too much time. > That's also why artists today have such short shelf lives. There is no sustained 'band loyalty,' where fans eagerly follow an artist from one record to the next because they are interested in whatever new things he/she has to say. I couldn't disagree more. Napster isn't about singles. It's about sampling. It's one great big listening station. It's about not waiting for the radio to play things that you might like. Instead you check it out when you want to, as often as you want to and then go for more if you like it. There have been two recent notable cases where bands allowed their singles to be shared on Napster prior to release and they subsequently charted at number one on the album chart - Radiohead and Dave Matthews. Both of these bands have album careers. Radiohead fans absolutely cared about getting the hidden booklet under the tray of the jewel box - despite having downloaded all of the songs (and alternate live versions) using Napster. There have always been artists with "singles" careers who couldn't garner album loyalty. One look at the Billboard singles chart from the 60's to now will demonstrate the point. The top 10, week by week, will contain plenty of names that no one heard of after that song. I'm willing to bet that the numbers today don't look all that unusual by comparison. Despite the radio dominance of Backstreet, N'Sync, etc. young music lovers do show their loyalty through album buying and going to shows - take Tool, Phish, the Roots or Ben Harper. They all sell albums, pack venues and get insubstantial commercial airplay. If you've never been to a Ben Harper show, I suggest checking it out ... you'll see wannabe hippie teenagers who own every CD, trade set lists and don't need to hear a single to buy the album. And to relate this to Joni...do you know how many young people (from all over the world) are pulling down Joni tunes? I've chatted with some who hotlisted me after downloading Beth Orton or Tribe Called Quest and went for the Joni stuff just cuz...those kids go out and buy records. They're real music fans. The bystanders who are swapping Baja Men or J Lo (or whatever she calls herself these days) were never interested in albums. And more than likely, they never will be. I think the industry wants to kill Napster because the cat gets out of the bag and they can't control it. If you love music and you don't want to spend for music that makes you want to get a refund, then Napster is your friend. Music buyers get to hear everything and decide for themselves before they drop $16. So if a record is crap, then Napster will show it to be so. If it's good and the fans dig it, then they will go buy it. And the industry wide sales numbers for last year and the first quarter this year back that up. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:16:33 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Duncan Sheik covers Joni This was in KCRW's e-newsletter, which I just looked at. :( Wonder if anyone recorded it??? * "Ground Zero," Saturdays 12 to 2p ** - - Sat, April 21 * Singer/songwriter Duncan Sheik is the featured guest on this week's "Ground Zero." Hear Duncan perform several exclusive new songs, including his entrancing version of the Joni Mitchell gem "Court and Spark." Duncan also discusses his new album "Phantom Moon," the sources of his material, and his recent musical collaboration with playwright Stephen Sater. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://www.cpmusic.com/scdh "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:36:51 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: the album form(ljc) In a message dated 4/23/01 1:04:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, blondeinthebleachers@hotmail.com writes: << The problem with music today is that it is no longer about creating a quality product and saying something meaningful. It is about cracking the top 10 and making money, which is why the likes of Britney, Christina, and NSuck have taken over the airwaves. Rock bands are few and far between, most of them never have more than one hit single and the songs on the album are mainly filler material. Bands, I believe, used to be about changing and shaping their music into something meaningful and real. Growing and experimenting. There are still exceptions but the shit that is out there is overwhelming. >> I disagree with this. Then and now there have always been those musicians, pushed by their record companies, who've only been about making hits and making money; and similarly there have always been a small minority of artists who are into "changing and shaping their music into something meaningful and real," and for the most part the latter group doesn't make so much money nor get much airplay, even if they are favored by the so-called critical media. And every once in a great while there is someone or a band, such as the Beatles, who begins in the frist group but is able to evolve into the second. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:44:09 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: the album form(ljc) While I couldnt agree more with your point and hasten to add i have voiced the very same opinion only to be told I was an old fuddy duddy stuck in my ways about music. In the interest of adding some perspective I would like to suggest a couple things. (1) It isnt the fault of the musicians who are doing what they are told they have to do to get ahead. Actually this battle has gone through several phases. Before the era you reference which was waiting for the next fave bands album (I will call Pre-Elvis) you had people like Pat Boone and Annete Funicello who were celebrities doing pre-packaged "hits". The music sucked but they were the only ones allowed in the door. Then came Elvis, early R&R and finally the Beatles and they changed all that and music became art so to speak. Joni speaks to the next change in her songs in which accountants and attorneys took over the decision making including content of albums. Meanwhile the "live" performance thing ran ITS course all the way u! p to ridiculous stadium "Days on the Green" which culminated in seeing the band better on a jumbotron than you could on the stage. We then began the slow descent into the hell you have described which is back to the "one hit wonders" with no substance to the music although its hard to beat the production values. The economics have changed alot but the "get in the door" thing hasnt. We are in essence back to square one. (2) When we weere here the last time our parents made all the same claims that you have. How many Rudy Valee albums do you have. Early R&R was called "jungle music" and "it will never last" was frequently heard. Can anything change this. Well yes and no. What changed everything was multi-tracking of recording because it became possible for recording artists to only work in studios and not to have to perform live like MiliVanilli. Video did kill the radio Star but i didnt hear many complaints along the way. Of course video has killed alot more than music as we knew it. Instead of someones ideas! deciding whether they are fit t o run our lives it now is such that if they dont look good on TV then they shouldnt run for political office and thats a huge point. The good news is that music like acting is best bred in a live venue. the death of the outdoor stadium shows has beguin to chase the acts back to the smaller venues while the micro evolution of the recording industry to digital multitracking has enabled bands to produce their own stuff and Napster now affords an unthinkable distribution system if the economic stuff can be refined. So all is not lost. Lastly what is missing in so much of the music is quality content. Meaningless meandering nonsensical lyric lines (with the appropriate crotch grab and dance move) will never in my opinion be anything more than fluff. But then again so many great songs arent encyclopedic statements which are better left to certain people tallented enough to pull it off like Joni. A song after all is many times a simple groove with a hook. And lets face it some of the! dumbest sounding songs we remem ber fondly not because of the song but because of what we were doing when it was on the radio. My final remark is that one of my all time favorite songs is Radio GaGa by Queen. That song says it all Thw soul of music itself will never die it just gets drowned out from time to time but it will return and as always be better than ever. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:48:01 EDT From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: Coyote mystery I'll second that, great work, that convinces me also... Maurice << Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 01:06:56 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Coyote Mystery Solved I'm convinced of the Sam Shepard connection. Thanks and kudos to all you coyote sleuths. - -Julius >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:10:37 EDT From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: Re: QuadHissing on EBay/ Rolling Thunder/renaldo and clara << Subject: There's a Quadraphonic Hissing on EBay >> I was also a bidder on this item. It has been circulated via tape and Cdr. before. I personally believe the mix is more noticeable different from Court and SparK Quad. a different way to listen to a familiar LP. Worth picking up, not worth more than 25.00 as it is somewhat common and an easy Quad to obtain. A note about Rolling Thunder and Renaldo and Clara movie. The original cut is reportedly over 4 hrs. The abbreviated 3 + hour version I've seen has some weird footage of Joan Baez, Sarah Dylan? and some others in a motel room "acting" like prostitutes. The music playing in the background sounds a lot like Joni on the piano playing some Hissing related instrumental music. There is also some scenes including her from a visit to Hurricane's prison concert although I recall no Joni dialogue. Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:06:22 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: the album form The problem isn't just about music, it's about centralized media. Television, film and music are now owned by a tiny handful of corporations that are mainly interested in offering mass-marketed, highly profitable product. They don't care if it is meaningless bubblegum or offensive blatant hate-music, as long as it jumps off the shelves. Sell less than 100k units and you are dropped. The problem and the salvation are the same: seek out and support the independant artists that are not part of the accountant-driven corporate crap merchants. These megaliths don't have a clue, and are, like some lumbering dinosaur, thrashing blindly, sinking under their own stupid weight. People are watching Sopranos and Sex and the City (and check out the Chris Issak Show on Showtime Mon nights) because they are choking on the tired commercial drivel shoveled at them. They are listening to Ani and Ben Harper, etc, etc,. The revolution will not be televised, so don't expect the corporate media to be doing anything real or meaningful unless it just happens by accident because it sells. Brenda- Napster is seen by many (and certainly defended by it's owners) as a marketing tool that is helping the industry sell more music, and helping the consumer sample before buying. Others, however, feel that it is an illegal distribution system infringing on the intellectual property of artists and composers. Probably it is both. I feel strongly that, regardless of the rationale for it's existence, it is wrong to use someone's creation without their permission. If Napster were simply a money machine for the music industry, I think you could convince Don Henley and others to back off-I mean his band was charging $100 per seat on their last "rake in the bucks" tour. There is nothing in the copyright statutes that allows someone to read a book or see a movie for free before deciding to buy it. A consumer with a modem can readily sample most any new release now before buying on CDNow or Amazon. I think the record industry is consumed by it's own greed. They don't oppose Napster because it rips off the artists-they've been happily doing that since they started (witness the recent work-for-hire fiasco)- they are worried about their BMW's and summer homes. It looks like a subscription service will soon be in place. The industry's own idea is to charge you 3 bucks to download one song-that is pure greed when you consider that a $14 10-song CD costs you $1.40 per song, and online distribution has virtually no physical reproduction cost to the company. They should be charging 50 or 75 cents per song-it would at least make them seem a little more credible. RR Brenda wrote: I couldn't disagree more. Napster isn't about singles. It's about sampling. It's one great big listening station. It's about not waiting for the radio to play things that you might like. Instead you check it out when you want to, as often as you want to and then go for more if you like it. There have been two recent notable cases where bands allowed their singles to be shared on Napster prior to release and they subsequently charted at number one on the album chart - Radiohead and Dave Matthews. Both of these bands have album careers. Radiohead fans absolutely cared about getting the hidden booklet under the tray of the jewel box - despite having downloaded all of the songs (and alternate live versions) using Napster. There have always been artists with "singles" careers who couldn't garner album loyalty. One look at the Billboard singles chart from the 60's to now will demonstrate the point. The top 10, week by week, will contain plenty of names that no one heard of after that song. I'm willing to bet that the numbers today don't look all that unusual by comparison. Despite the radio dominance of Backstreet, N'Sync, etc. young music lovers do show their loyalty through album buying and going to shows - take Tool, Phish, the Roots or Ben Harper. They all sell albums, pack venues and get insubstantial commercial airplay. If you've never been to a Ben Harper show, I suggest checking it out ... you'll see wannabe hippie teenagers who own every CD, trade set lists and don't need to hear a single to buy the album. And to relate this to Joni...do you know how many young people (from all over the world) are pulling down Joni tunes? I've chatted with some who hotlisted me after downloading Beth Orton or Tribe Called Quest and went for the Joni stuff just cuz...those kids go out and buy records. They're real music fans. The bystanders who are swapping Baja Men or J Lo (or whatever she calls herself these days) were never interested in albums. And more than likely, they never will be. I think the industry wants to kill Napster because the cat gets out of the bag and they can't control it. If you love music and you don't want to spend for music that makes you want to get a refund, then Napster is your friend. Music buyers get to hear everything and decide for themselves before they drop $16. So if a record is crap, then Napster will show it to be so. If it's good and the fans dig it, then they will go buy it. And the industry wide sales numbers for last year and the first quarter this year back that up. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:17:53 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: the album form Randy Remote wrote: > I feel strongly that, regardless of > the rationale for it's existence, it is wrong to use someone's > creation without their permission. I don't disagree that violating copyright is wrong. (Not that it has been proven that that is what Napster has done. Or Napster users for that matter. It's a technicality, but it's true. The case has not been tried yet.) And if the labels weren't so hell bent on control, it would not be happening. The simple fact is that Napster tried to make deals with them for licenses before the thing took off - more than a year ago. I know; I was there. And instead of seeing the benefit for artists and for themselves, the labels set about trying to kill it instead. And I've watched this happen with other companies as well (MP3.com to name one other that I can name because they are not a client) who went to the labels in good faith to negotiate and had their arms twisted and were strung out while the RIAA was gathering information to sue them. Or they made a deal (that had to be exclusive) for a huge equity stake in the company (try 35-45%) and then withheld the gold of their catalog (Beatles, Sinatra, etc.) So the service sucks; the label sells their stock at IPO cleaning up on all the cash and leaving the company out to dry. And to top it all off, they would make the deal under a blanket license which means that they are not paying the artist ONE RED CENT. I can point to an example of a major label that did just this very thing and collected $40 million of which NONE was paid to a single artist or publisher. The majors want to kill innovation because they don't understand it. They have a history of doing this and each time the new innovation has always led to MORE profits for them - like the CD and the LP. And as much as I think it is not right to violate copyright, if the holders will not make deals with you (waiting to be forcibly compelled to by Congress by virtue of a statutory rate) then you should not halt your innovation because of it. Napster and P2P has led to networks of people sharing info over P2P networks regarding cancer research and other important work. I'm glad that P2P was not stopped. (Check some of the stuff that Intel is supporting. And all of the collective work that comes from it will not be owned by Intel; it will belong to the primary research university.) All of this will inevitably lead to sharing going to decentralized services and the RIAA will have to sue fans. Right now they're going after ISP's. Individuals will be next. We all know how that's going to go down. > There is nothing in the copyright statutes that allows > someone to read a book or see a movie for free before > deciding to buy it. Actually, there is. It's called fair use. It's the reason why you can check CD's and videos out at the library. And guess what? You're not breaking the law if you make one copy for you own personal use. Because copyright isn't about protecting owners for ever. It's origin stems from the belief that "useful arts" belong to the public, for the public good. The creators are afforded a period of time (life plus some odd years) to benefit from that work and then it belongs in the public domain. As far as subscription services go, they are going to fail because the major labels won't join together to do it, nor will they give the rights to one or more companies in a reasonable business partnership. So you'll end up having to subscribe to more than one service to have access to just all major label content. This all stems from the majors fear based on MTV. They felt that they built a beast with MTV because they did not own it. This myopia is leading to building services that no one will really like because none of them will have everything and you will only be able to use the files on certain players or for certain periods of time. And your fair use rights will be limited. Don't get me wrong; there are injustices on both sides - with tech companies and with labels. But I think we should keep this in full perspective. At the end of the day, there is an overwhelming effort here to limit consumer rights and to close the loops on things that major conglomerates have never wanted to exist - like fair use and buyer freedom. Rant over, Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:53:46 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Duncan Sheik covers Joni In a message dated 4/23/2001 2:28:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steve@psitech.com writes: << t, April 21 * Singer/songwriter Duncan Sheik is the featured guest on this week's "Ground Zero." Hear Duncan perform several exclusive new songs, including his entrancing version of the Joni Mitchell gem "Court and Spark." Duncan also discusses his new album "Phantom Moon," the sources of his material, and his recent musical collaboration with playwright Stephen Sater. -- >> I'd kill to hear Duncan's cover of Court and Spark! The Phantom Moon CD is breathtaking--gorgeous, sumptuous music. It's been on my player almost exclusively (along with Shawn Colvin) since it's release! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:01:43 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: the album form > Actually, there is. It's called fair use. It's the reason why you can > check CD's and videos out at the library. And guess what? You're not > breaking the law if you make one copy for you own personal use. I often have wondered why one can get cd's/video's and libraries. It didn't make sense to me regarding copywrite. Thanks for this info. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:38:46 -0400 From: Doug Brode Subject: Down with TLAs! And I never want to see another FLA here either. No TLAs or FLAs!! Do you hear me?! (TLA -- Three Letter Acronym) (FLA -- Four letter Acronym) OK. I'll shut up now. What are the Joni acronyms? I just figured out that HOSL is Hissing of Summer Lawns. WAB! ICSIAM!!! Is there a list of JMAs?! TAL. CYA. HAGD Doug LIABATYD, as Willie Nelson once said. OK, I'll really shut up now. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:41:39 -0400 From: Doug Brode Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 Greetings, >I love all the JONI threads and willingly admit that's what I'm on this list >to hear!! Thanks for all the recent tidbits (esp. on Coyote and FTR). >We'll be seeing JT in concert here at Hershey on July 11. I know that James Taylor wrote "Something in the Way She Moves" about his relationship with Joni Mitchell. Did Joni write a song about James? Cheers, Doug ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:47:08 -0400 From: Doug Brode Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 Hi Janine, >From: "janine sherman" >Subject: FTR/ 1972 McGovern Tour question > >I love all the JONI threads and willingly admit that's what I'm on this list >to hear!! Thanks for all the recent tidbits (esp. on Coyote and FTR). >We'll be seeing JT in concert here at Hershey on July 11. > > "The last time I saw James was Canton in '72 " > >w/ Joni and P. Simon on the McGovern tour. I am trying to put together how >that 1972 tour plays into their break-up and the material on FTR. Anybody >willing to speculate or contribute on that one? The picture I located of the >three of them from that tour shows her sorta glaring. Many thanks for all the >insights. Tell me more! Who are we talking about? Joni, James, and Paul Simon? What's up with that? I'd heard Joni's line, "He makes good omelets and stews." Was a reference to James Taylor. What do you think? Cheers, Doug ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:32:43 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 > I know that James Taylor wrote "Something in the Way She Moves" Is this the same song as the very well known song? from the sixties? Covered by loads and loads o fpeople, Birley Shassey being just one of them? colin BRO GC, 950i, 864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:37:30 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Coyote Julius wrote: > I'm convinced of the Sam Shepard connection. Thanks and kudos to all you > coyote sleuths. Well, mutter, mutter, it DOES look pretty convincing, even to me, the Peter Coyote champion... :) - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://www.cpmusic.com/scdh "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:09:23 -0400 From: "Sue Cameron" Subject: Duncan Shiek covers Joni Steve, I love Duncan's work and think that he could really do justice to Court and Spark. Is there a chance that this will be recorded? Thanks. Sue Cameron N.P. cat again choking up hairball in tune with Taming the Tiger's "nice, kitty kitty" Me thinks it is time to get some hairball remover! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:34:02 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Duncan Shiek covers Joni << I love Duncan's work and think that he could really do justice to Court and Spark. Is there a chance that this will be recorded? >> Sue...this HAS BEEN RECORDED. It will be one of the featured tracks on "A Case of Joni"...here is the lineup: PM Dawn, bNight in the Cityb Annie Lennox, bLadies of the Canyonb Stevie Wonder, bWoodstockb Janet Jackson, bBeat of Black Wingsb Duncan Sheik, bCourt and Sparkb kd lang, bHelp Meb Sarah McLachlan, bBlueb Elvis Costello, bEdith and the Kingpinb Chaka Khan, bHejirab Etta James, bAmeliab Elton John, bFree Man In Parisb Bjork, bBoho Danceb Lindsey Buckingham with Mick Fleetwood, bBig Yellow Taxi Hope that helps...and I hope his vocal isn't as horrid as it was on Joni's Jazz! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:09:22 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 That's the first time I've heard that "Something in the Way She Moves" was written about Joni. That song appeared on James's 1968 Apple release. Did Joni and James know each other then? > I know that James Taylor wrote "Something in the Way She Moves" about his > relationship with Joni Mitchell. Did Joni write a song about James? > Cheers, > Doug > - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling "I like cats. They give the home a heartbeat." ~Joni Mitchell - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:28:41 -0400 From: "janine sherman" Subject: Fw: 1972 McGovern Campaign trail - -----Original Message----- From: janine sherman To: dbrode1@home.com Date: Monday, April 23, 2001 10:28 PM Subject: 1972 McGovern Campaign trail Hi Doug, In the summer of 1972, yes, those three: Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, and Paul Simon toured for George McGovern who ran against Tricky Dick and lost. I saw them in Canton, Ohio near where I grew up. I remember George McGovern coming out on the stage at the end and holding hands with them; raising arms in the air. So it'll be almost 30 years since I saw JT, but will on July 11 in Hershey, PA. There was talk on here about the For the Roses album being influenced by her break- up with James Taylor and I was asking for input on here on how that summer 1972 tour fit into their break-up , before or after? I know she did some work with him on MudSlide Slim in the winter of 1971 and FTR release date is 1972 so?????? I agree that much on it seems to be influenced by him and his subsequent success in the music industry i.e. See You Sometime- "Pack your suspenders..." Blonde in the Bleachers-her? Cold Blue Steel is supposed to be about his heroin addiction and, of course, the title track - For the Roses, is about the music industry perhaps as a warning to him??? So I am trying to put the timeline together. Lots of great input on the Coyote/DJRD connection to Sam Shepard...... so here's hoping someone or two will help me out here. "He makes good omelets and stews." I think this refers to her time in Europe and living in the caves and this may be "Carey" a red-headed guy from the caves. Anybody?? Thanks, Janine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:31:40 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 In a message dated 4/23/01 7:37:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: << > I know that James Taylor wrote "Something in the Way She Moves" Is this the same song as the very well known song? from the sixties? Covered by loads and loads o fpeople, Birley Shassey being just one of them? >> No, I think you are confusing the James Taylor song with the George Harrison song "Something," which is the one that has been covered by hundreds of artists. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:32:25 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #187 In a message dated 4/23/01 6:53:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dbrode1@home.com writes: << I know that James Taylor wrote "Something in the Way She Moves" about his relationship with Joni Mitchell. Cheers, Doug >> Doug, How do you know this? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:35:00 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: the album form In a message dated 4/23/01 5:22:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, brenda@killinggoliath.com writes: << I don't disagree that violating copyright is wrong. (Not that it has been proven that that is what Napster has done. Or Napster users for that matter. It's a technicality, but it's true. The case has not been tried yet.) >> I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that the case will never have to go to trial because the judge already has ruled as a matter of law that Napster has and is violating copyrights, which is why the judge strongly encouraged Napster to try to reach a settlement because is Napster does not, Napster could not print enough money to pay the court's award, including penalties and coutr costs. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:37:09 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: the album form In a message dated 4/23/01 6:03:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: << Actually, there is. It's called fair use. It's the reason why you can > check CD's and videos out at the library. And guess what? You're not > breaking the law if you make one copy for you own personal use. >> Fair use does NOT include copying something you checked out of the library, whether it is for personal use or not. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:46:00 -0400 From: "Christopher J. Treacy" Subject: Japanese Joni Import Cd & Video Who knows about this "An Evening With Joni Mitchell" CD & Video import from Japan? I vaguely remember somebody (Catman?) mentioning it a while back. Obviously, I'm not going to order anything until I know more - it's quite expensive! Thoughts? -Chris NP: That 2nd Amanda Marshall CD that evryone ignored - quite good, actually. Getting ready to go wait on line @ Tower for the New Janet (yay!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:36:51 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: the album form The ruling was for an injunction to shut down the service while the case was being adjudicated. Napster still has the option of going to trial and pursuing other defenses, even though the judge ruled against them (in a limited way) with the injunction. Also Patel encouraged both sides to settle (just as the judge did with the MP3.com case) because the labels are looking really bad from the fair use perspective. The other thing is that if a statutory rate is set before this thing goes the distance, then Napster's damages won't be some pie in the sky number that sends everyone home from work. This is particularly so because the major label content is now, for the most part, being blocked (even though it is hurting indie artists in the process who have given permission for their songs to be shared). IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/23/01 5:22:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > brenda@killinggoliath.com writes: > > << I don't disagree that violating copyright is wrong. (Not that it has been > proven that that is what Napster has done. Or Napster users for that > matter. It's a technicality, but it's true. The case has not been tried > yet.) >> > I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that the case will never have > to go to trial because the judge already has ruled as a matter of law that > Napster has and is violating copyrights, which is why the judge strongly > encouraged Napster to try to reach a settlement because is Napster does not, > Napster could not print enough money to pay the court's award, including > penalties and coutr costs. > > Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:38:58 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: the album form One thing that I misstated was personal use....it should be noncommercial use. IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/23/01 6:03:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: > > << Actually, there is. It's called fair use. It's the reason why you can > > check CD's and videos out at the library. And guess what? You're not > > breaking the law if you make one copy for you own personal use. > > >> > > Fair use does NOT include copying something you checked out of the library, > whether it is for personal use or not. > > Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:38:12 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: the album form Um ...yes it does. When I get back to my home computer, I'll give you the exact wording and the interpretation that shows it to be so. IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/23/01 6:03:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: > > << Actually, there is. It's called fair use. It's the reason why you can > > check CD's and videos out at the library. And guess what? You're not > > breaking the law if you make one copy for you own personal use. > > >> > > Fair use does NOT include copying something you checked out of the library, > whether it is for personal use or not. > > Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:57:57 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: the album form/fair use and libraries... Everyone - this may be a snooze for you so....delete now. I did not label it as NJC because I think everyone can benefit from a dialogue about the real intentions of copyright - not the property notions that are pushed by multinational corporations (the ones in the music biz are affectionately called the Cartel). I don't have my bookmarks with me which provide the simple analysis without all the code language. So: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/index.html Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 108 http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/108.html (f) Nothing in this section - (1) shall be construed to impose liability for copyright infringement upon a library or archives or its employees for the unsupervised use of reproducing equipment located on its premises: Provided, That such equipment displays a notice that the making of a copy may be subject to the copyright law; (2) excuses a person who uses such reproducing equipment or who requests a copy or phonorecord under subsection (d) from liability for copyright infringement for any such act, or for any later use of such copy or phonorecord, if it exceeds fair use as provided by section 107; (3) shall be construed to limit the reproduction and distribution by lending of a limited number of copies and excerpts by a library or archives of an audiovisual news program, subject to clauses (1), (2), and (3) of subsection (a); or (4) in any way affects the right of fair use as provided by section 107, or any contractual obligations assumed at any time by the library or archives when it obtained a copy or phonorecord of a work in its collections. And here is a fairly decent analysis of the fair use section, 107 along with some supporting case law. http://www.eff.org/pub/Intellectual_property/fair_use_and_copyright.excerpt "The defense 'permits and requires courts to avoid rigid application of the copyright statute when, on occasion, it would stifle the very creativity which that law is designed to foster.'" I am admittedly not a lawyer, but can you honestly tell me that I would be charged with infringement and that I could not prevail using the fair use doctrine, if I made one copy for my own noncommercial use? I know that libraries set their own rules, some stating no copying and others posting the rules for copying relative to fair use. If there is precedent that shows an individual being charged with infringement, I'd welcome seeing it. (I think I've posted more today than all year! ; ) Brenda n.p. - Cotton Avenue FYI- Music companies are paid a royalty for each blank cassette, each blank music CD-R and each audio recording device sold. (Now the data CD-R's....that's another story!) "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: > Um ...yes it does. When I get back to my home computer, I'll give you the > exact wording and the interpretation that shows it to be so. > > IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/23/01 6:03:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: > > > > << Actually, there is. It's called fair use. It's the reason why you can > > > check CD's and videos out at the library. And guess what? You're not > > > breaking the law if you make one copy for you own personal use. > > > > >> > > > > Fair use does NOT include copying something you checked out of the library, > > whether it is for personal use or not. > > > > Paul I ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #130 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?