From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #92 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, March 21 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 092 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Amelia [Yael Harlap ] False Alarms [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Amelia [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Amelia corrected [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Living in and Understanding Communities [Michael Paz ] Re: Shadows and Light DVD [Randy Remote ] Re: Amelia [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Songs To Aging Children Come [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: *Joni and smoking ["Kathryn Herrity" ] Re: Songs To Aging Children Come ["Kathryn Herrity" ] Re: Edith and the Kingpin ["hell" ] Re: *Joni and smoking [FWSCHNAUZERMOM@aol.com] Fwd: *Joni and smoking [Kammass@aol.com] RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #132 ["Kate Bennett" ] Amelia ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:37:52 -0500 From: Yael Harlap Subject: Amelia Bob suggested... re Amelia" > a lot of us old-timers here hav batted this one around pretty good. I > would challenge some of you newbies & recent de-lurkers to examine the > lyrics and give us your take. I for one would love to read it! :~) This I think is my favorite Joni song of all (along with All I Want) and on my less lucid days I think about it fairly simple, and interpret the false alarm as referring to true love - this was the relationship that she thought of as The One and yet it wasn't - it sounded like it was, she responded as if it were, and yet, it fell short, ended. On my more lucid days I think that is way too simplistic and I am boggled by the different layers of Amelia - there must be deeper relationships between Joni's description of relationship and Amelia Earhardt than just the use of a metaphor. Today I am not very lucid though, so I'll leave it at that. - -Yael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:59:54 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: False Alarms << OK here goes: I don't have a clue! I'm serious, I'm totally stumped. And I always can figure out SOMEthing. But not on this. >> LOL! I didn't mean that YOU had to answer your own question, silly...I just wanted to let you know that your question has been discussed at length in the past and maybe some new voices could take a stab at it...and thanks to thise that did! Bob NP: Lisa Yves, "The Dry Cleaner From Des Moines" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:41:00 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Amelia The lyrics end with Joni alone in a motel room - alone, in a place one goes to on a journey, alone in a place where one goes with a lover, she is alone. Dreams, dreams, and false alarms... whatever Joni had hoped for, whatever her dream was, it was crashed, it had crashed (see penultimate verse), just as Amelia Earhart had a dream, a journey she wished to make, she flew in the icy altitutdes, and her dream crashed and she was alone - and dead. Amelia was the pioneer woman who had a dream in man's world, Joni has her dreams in an induistry also male dominated and they both pushed the limits of doing it their war. I see the song "Amelia" as an elergy, as an evocation of a place that Joni is in, an emotional or psychological place, where seeing the ending of a dream. The dream may have been, for Joni, a happy relationship. Whatever it was, it had crashed and Joni's dream, like Amelia's, ended in futility. A related, somewhat opposite, image appears in the movie The Great Waldo Pepper, made about the same time, where in the end Waldo has accomplished his dream and flies off in his bi-plane into a cloud, alone, never to land; his bi-plane lost its landing gear, but the crash that is to come (and kill him) is meaningless as Waldo has accomplised his dreams and flies off, alone, in the cloud. The above: all IMHO. Greg Kot of the Chicago Tribune has written of that song as if it is the one that moves him the most. Even my very obtuse former partner, who said when we were halfway through the S&L video, "have we had enough Joni?," was caught by the poignancy of that song. Amelia, whether we understand the words, we all understand what she feels, what she is saying beyond the mere words with her music, with the entire sound. Like an opera, we don't need to understand the words to relate to the emotion. That is why IMHO "Amelia" is one of Joni's most moving songs. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:50:41 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Amelia corrected A bad typo. The correct paragraph is below. Sorry, I am stupid and am signing off for tonight. Amelia was the pioneer woman who had a dream in man's world, Joni has her dreams in an induistry also male dominated and they both pushed the limits of doing it their I see the song "Amelia" as an elergy, as an evocation of a place that Joni is in, an emotional or psychological place, where seeing the ending of a dream. The dream may have been, for Joni, a happy relationship. Whatever it was, it had crashed and Joni's dream, like Amelia's, ended in futility. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:38:54 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Living in and Understanding Communities I enjoyed this post very much, but having been here since Feb 16, 1998 I am painfully aware of the syndrome. Where were you last night? We had a hell of a party in the chat room. I got hit in the head with a bottle of Tequila and didn't wake up till this morning and I was naked and had on some mardi gras beads and a funny hat. Peace Michael (obviously feeling better tonight, but sleepy) on 3/20/01 3:08 AM, Gordon Mackie at gordon.mackie@strath.ac.uk wrote: > I was thinking about 'communities' whilst reading the latest posting, > especially the IVPAUL / Murphycopy exchange. Obviously I've missed > some previous correspondence between these two , but I couldn't > understand the strength of Bob's response to what seemed to me like a > relatively minor point made by Paul. I feel very uneasy about > stepping into this particular fray but what one person thinks as > positive is another persons negative. Joan Anderson has made that > point on a number of occasions 'Amelia' (People will tell you where > they've gone, they'll tell you where to go, but till you get there > yourself you never really know) or 'Shadows and Light' (The perils of > benefactors, the blessings of parasites) to name two. To me it > doesn't matter if the bottle is half empty or half full but more > about whose owns and controls the bottle factory. > > Our wee community is no different from any other. Different views, > different expressions, difference. Diversity. Self-determination. > > Pass the bottle.... I'll drink to that..(hic) > > Gordon > (Ok, ok, I overdosed on the 19th century liberalism but you get the > point. Long live the Republic!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:43:01 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Songs To Aging Children Come One of our cats has developed the less-than-endearing habit of yelling to be let out on weekday mornings at about 5:00 AM. This is about 30 minutes before my alarm goes off. Well anyway, this morning after performing my duties as door opener for His Feline Majesty, I got back in bed and while trying to drift off to catch another half hour's worth of zz's, I got to thinking about the recent thread about Songs To Aging Children Come. The thread may be dead but not in my head. I think this song is Joni's answer to the question: Where do your songs come from? Joni replies that they come from the wells of her imagination (I think they're windless for the sake of alliteration) and might be inspired by a light show at a rock concert (with or without chemical stimulation.) Or maybe a song arises from watching a fortune teller read her tea leaves (she thinks of Rose - her heart begins to tremble) or if you're a famous songwriter or maybe a musician in a Renaissance royal court, maybe your work is commissioned or ordered by the King and Queen for a royal marriage or birth or some other fete or holiday. From these sources and by these sometimes mystical & mysterious avenues, songs (to aging children) come. In the next verse she wonders why everyone else doesn't hear all the music that she does. After all, being the musical genius that she is, she hears songs outside her window & the traffic writes the words. This is the woman who tunes her guitar to bird song. Maybe people are just going too fast to hear all the music in the world that Joni hears in all that chiming & clicking & laughing. Some of the melodies that come to her are not happy ones. Some come with sad & melancholic images attached to them. Listening to these melodies inspires words that fill the eyes with tears and the heart with sorrow (but with Joni they always end up making us feel better somehow.) And of course the natural world makes many contributions to Joni's songbook. The scent of dying roses yield up a perfumed rhapsody (but will they bequeath it to her?) The moon serenades her with it's songs (all of them silver?) as it strums the strings of stars that stretch across the galaxy. And by describing in poetic language how her muse inspires her, a song (to aging children) comes. Mark in Seattle (who will leave 'False Alarms' to others who haven't already thrashed it out) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:45:01 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Shadows and Light DVD Thanks for the review, I think that is the first one I have seen. What did you mean by: The picture is excellent and I give the sound a B plus- only because it is just going through a stereo. The DVD is in stereo, not 5.1 surround, right? Why wouldn't the sound be great if it's going through a stereo? I don't understand. Anyway, thanks for the review, I'll be dropping by.... RR Steve Polifka wrote: > Hi all! > I just recieved the S&L DVD from and ebay auction. It is so cool! It has > the 15 minutes of extra footage not in the original video release. > The picture is excellent and I give the sound a B plus- only because it is > just going through a stereo. > To one interesting note that I need to share is that they have a 'bio' > section on JM. It is the first 3 paragraphs that Wally wrote about her on his > website! (I just checked...) How did that happen? > The DVD is c 2000 by Panorama video out of Hong Kong. Looks like an > official release. I belive it is a region 1, but the seller said it was an all > region disc- doesn't matter- I like it. > I paid 35 for it- considering I spent 50 for the S&L Japan release a few > years ago, not bad. Highly recomend it! > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:01:53 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Amelia Yes, Vince I agree: understanding can exist independent of a capacity to paraphrase perfectly. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:11:24 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Songs To Aging Children Come In a message dated 3/20/2001 10:55:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << I think this song is Joni's answer to the question: Where do your songs come from? >> This makes more sense to me than any other interpretation I've seen. Thanks. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:06:45 -0800 From: "Kathryn Herrity" Subject: Re: *Joni and smoking colin and MG, O.K. I know I am biased on this subject being a rather defiant (but hopefully never rude) smoker myself. I see how she broke the rules in Saskatoon and at the Tribute but how grevious was the effect in reality? She lit up one or two in the gallery - I don't think Gilles, who was close to her could have cared less, and the amount of smoke was not enough to ruin the gallery environment. Smoke can affect paintings, but in this case, they were her own, and no doubt subjected to years of her smoke anyway. Maybe it was rude to the reporters? Most of them were international and most countries outside the U.S. don't make as big a deal about secondhand smoke that we do. She was probably anxious about the show, she is admittedly quite addicted, and it was her big day, so in that perspective, I don't think I would call her out on it. As for the Tribute, again I don't think one cigarette up in her balcony with Donald and friends was so egregious. Last I knew smoking inside was allowed in New York (although perhaps not in that venue). I'm not trying to excuse her and say she is above the rules, but I have seen so many people go way over the top in their zealotry against smokers. One can smoke outside in downtown L.A. 50 feet away from the nearest human being, and there is bound to be a person who will start loudly coughing and complaining. This is where I agree with colin - why aren't they more concerned with the general air pollution in downtown L.A., which is equivalent to smoking a pack and a half a day, or worse yet, the particulate matter emissions from cars that everyone commuting to work is subjected to on the freeways and streets every day? Some people are so hypocritcal. I've had some people who I know to regularly smoke pot start coughing around me smoking OUTSIDE, complaining about their lung and bronchial problems. I've known others who are selective with whom they reprimand like an ex-snoker woman I know who only goes after the easy mark to make a big scene about their smoking but who will also have one herself if it's with a new guy she is attracted to. I would bet Joni has either experienced or witnessed some of these same situations and I think it does stoke her defiance a bit. Bottom line is people should be so zealous about tackling the more important big issues, IMHO. ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:15:58 -0800 From: "Kathryn Herrity" Subject: Re: Songs To Aging Children Come WOW Mark, once again you get the platinum star. This is perfect and I will now appreciate the song in a much greater way. Kakki > And by describing in poetic language how her muse inspires her, a song > (to aging children) comes. > > Mark in Seattle > (who will leave 'False Alarms' to others who haven't already thrashed > it out) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:18:15 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Edith and the Kingpin Rose wrote: > She died of cancer at the young age of 48, but yes she had a problem with > alcohol and morphine. I believe that Joni was paying homage to Piaf. I found > this interesting tidbit in my research: > . At the age of nineteen, she was discovered by nightclub impressario Louis > Lepli e, and because she had been singing a song about a sparrow, he > christened her La Mt me Piaf, street slang for "Kid Sparrow." Patrons of > Lepli e's club Gerny's were astonished by the power and richness of her > voice, and by her diminutive size for she was only four feet ten inches tall > and weighed probably not much more than eighty pounds. But, her initial > success at Gerny's was cut short when Lepli e was murdered, probably over > money and probably by some young toughs to whom he had been introduced by > Piaf. Although she was cleared of any complicity in the murder, the scandal, > and her reputation as a friend of most of Paris' pimps, prostitutes, and > petty criminals, drove her out of Paris for a time and forced her to perform > in provincial movie houses and bistros to keep from starving once again. > > He would often stay in houses of ill repute to stay warm. > You can read a brief biography as well as sound clips > here: http://soundprint.org/documentaries/more_info/piaf.phtml Wow, thanks for sharing that Rose. And it pretty much makes me think that she was Joni's inspiration for this song - the lyrics certainly fit the story. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:20:53 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Edith and the Kingpin Rose wrote: > Very interesting Bob. Are there any recordings of these interviews. I'd be > interested in hearing them. In my research on Piaf, I learned she often > dressed in black. > She rose every day at dusk and sang, rehearsed, performed, ate and drank > until dawn, then slept all day and began to create and unravel again as the > sun went down. Nearly every song Piaf sang was a moment of her life from the > streets of Paris. She would tell her composer and musician lovers a story, or > describe a feeling or show them a gesture. And they would put music and words > to her pain and passion, giving her back her own musical autobiography. Again it sounds like Joni here. Doesn't she sleep until mid-afternoon, and stay up all night?! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:21:50 EST From: FWSCHNAUZERMOM@aol.com Subject: Re: *Joni and smoking Oh get over yourself! If you were actually lucky enough to be graced by the presence of one of the greatest artists of our time you'd call her on smoking! Go sit in your own smoke free room without Joni in it! (This may seem harsh, but enough already of this smoking police crap! And I don't even smoke!) F in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:08:12 EST From: Kammass@aol.com Subject: Fwd: *Joni and smoking yes, i totally agree about this smoking thread! Everyone lite up, sit back, and read some posts! kammy np-smoke soundtrack-smoke gets in your eyes-the jerry garcia band (inhale.....exhale...ahhhhh) Return-Path: Received: from rly-xb05.mx.aol.com (rly-xb05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.106]) by air-xb05.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:45:16 -0500 Received: from smoe.org (jane.smoe.org [216.200.102.14]) by rly-xb05.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.21) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:45:03 -0500 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id AAA26204; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:23:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:23:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id AAA26188 for joni-outgoing; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:22:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-r14.mx.aol.com (imo-r14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-jane) with ESMTP id AAA26179 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:22:31 -0500 (EST) From: FWSCHNAUZERMOM@aol.com Received: from FWSCHNAUZERMOM@aol.com by imo-r14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id p.e1.11f18358 (25105); Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:21:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:21:50 EST Subject: Re: *Joni and smoking To: MGVal@aol.com, joni@smoe.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 116 Sender: owner-joni@jmdl.com Reply-To: FWSCHNAUZERMOM@aol.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Precedence: bulk Oh get over yourself! If you were actually lucky enough to be graced by the presence of one of the greatest artists of our time you'd call her on smoking! Go sit in your own smoke free room without Joni in it! (This may seem harsh, but enough already of this smoking police crap! And I don't even smoke!) F in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:46:48 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #132 Absolutely Beautiful Mark. >>>>And by describing in poetic language how her muse inspires her, a song (to aging children) comes.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:46:47 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Amelia Thank you Vince for that beautiful description of what i think is my most favorite Joni song >>>That is why IMHO "Amelia" is one of Joni's most moving songs. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #92 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?