From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #82 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, March 12 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 082 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #80 [Nancy ] Re: She don't like my grammar ["John van Tiel" ] Re: the klan (forgive the rant) ["P. Henry Boland" ] Re: She don't like my grammar [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: She don't like my grammar [Catherine McKay ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #115 [Catherine McKay ] Joni's granddaughter in the middle of divorce from hell ["Louise" ] Re: the klan (forgive the rant) [Michael Paz ] Re: She don't like my grammar ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: She don't like my grammar [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: She don't like my grammar [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Welcome ["Sue Cameron" ] Grammar (VLJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Grammar (VLJC) [Dflahm@aol.com] RE: She don't like my grammar ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #116 [RPWieloh@cs.com] Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: She don't like my grammar [Catherine McKay ] Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) [Michael Paz ] Re: Grammar (VLJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #116 [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) ["Louis Lynch" ] Re: the klan (forgive the rant) [Randy Remote ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 01:56:34 -0600 From: Nancy Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #80 I only got the beginning of the digest, it says it is truncated. Not able to access rest of message. Can you attempt to resend it? Thank you! Nancy-IA onlyJMDL Digest wrote: > > onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, March 10 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 080 > > The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be > found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, > a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. > > The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains > interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > preganant Joni Dream [catman ] > The 2-book set "Crosby, Stills, Nash and sometimes Young" ["Francesco L] > Re: Jonifest [FMYFL@aol.com] > Attention UK JMDLers! [Gertus@aol.com] > Tower Records [Jerry Notaro ] > Re: Joni's Most Underrated? ["Mike Hicks" ] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:35:52 +0100 From: "John van Tiel" Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar Trey writes: >> My friends call me the GRAMMAR POLICE! LOL I've had many debates about it. It annoys me when it's gratuitous -- like nudity. << and plays: >> np - Longing Town, Duncan Sheik (I'm loving this record - a lot of the arrangements remind me of the great stuff on Court and Spark and For the Roses -- lots of strings and flutes and such... I really like it!! << and I think: What a pity the record has flutes instead of saxes ... no gratuitous nudity, but lots of gratuitous sax & senseless violins. ;-) Into words and suffering from an attitude today ... pissy prose and a prissy pose, that's where I'm at. From the coast of Holland, John NP: Bob's Joni Covers Project, Vol. 14 (Any Europeans who'd like a copy of this volume or any of the others, just contact me) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 01:53:59 +1000 From: "P. Henry Boland" Subject: Re: the klan (forgive the rant) hi mike, I'm sorry if I somehow gave the impression that I wrote that... no, it was probably written somewhere between selma and mongomery... maybe by the same person who wrote 'hey nelly, nelly' (same type of song... driving and in your face) I don't know who the author is but Gil Scott Heron put it on his 1980 album, 'Real Eyes': http://www.gilscottheron.com/REAL.htm (that is floating around on napster if you want to hear how he did it... I haven't heard it) and there is a link there to the lyrics the way he does it. (different from mine some) if you look at the joni ad in the gallery at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1502641&a=11682876&p=41512516&Sequence=0&res=high you can see that the next week's performer that december in '66 was a guy named Ron Coden... well, Ron was the house performer and king at the best coffeehouse around, the Raven and the first 'pro' folk oriented artist I ever met, about 2yrs before I knew Joni when I was just 15 and playing in my first coffeehouse to a bunch of college kids. it was Ron who taught me that song along with 'early mornin' rain', 'hey nelly, nelly' and my signature songs, 'you know my name' and 'if I had wings' as well as lots of others. that was me, bro... pickin' up licks from the pros... I was really a mockingbird who couldn't write a song to save my life... and that was my downfall... *ranting off topic now*..: it may sound strange but if you've ever stopped to wonder just why I gave up music when I had everything going for me, a really decent voice, a sufficient guitar style that people liked, a *recording contract with reprise* in the bag if I just wanted to sign the papers and go make a record, that just dropped in my lap way out in the sticks when I'd never so much as sent out a demo tape! (hell, I coulda blown away a LOT of the major acts that made big money & fame around that time!) well, you're the only one I've ever really explained this to but the answer to just what was it that cause me to give up my music is that *it was Joni herself*! ...like I said, it may sound strange... but it's true. see, I really really worked on my licks and my sound and my stage presence and my look and everything for 2 solid yrs before she came to town... and I was, IMO, really getting good... but what I was good at was presenting what others had created or arranged... and ya see, (this is hard to explain) Joni and I became really tight... and, tho I love her like crazy, it's just not a good idea for someone so UNcreative to get so close to the heat of someone like her. I mean, it's not a pride thing... that could never be an issue with her; it was just like 'what's the point?'... like I got better and better and didn't really know how far I could go... and then Joni came along and showed me undeniably just how far I *couldn't* go! oh geez, I hope this makes *some* sense! the ironic thing is that Joni really seemed to do all she could to encourage me, and, as you may have read before, I strongly suspect that it was a word from her that prompted that record contract offer... (it had to be something to drag this company agent so far off the beaten path when he coulda been in phily, toronto, detroit, chicago, etc, where there was SO much more happening... anyway, it was just like 'standing next to her fire' took all the wind out of my sails... my fault not hers... my head/heart was screwed up ever since my dad passed away when I was 12... anybody else would have had to flourish in such a lush environment... and I think a lot did... (Rush, Anderson, Crosby, Stills, Nash, Young... in fact, I might be nuts but I think CSNY never woulda happened were it not for Joni... just my opinion...) she's a muse, man, she's a muse! ;o) anyway, (wot a rant! LoL!) I really don't have much of a voice left anymore... I AM getting a mic for my puter and, if I can figure out how, maybe I'll do something... but I don't think I could ever do the Klan again... that one takes a *lot* of voice! we'll see, ok? :o) btw, thanks for a really encouraging ltr, mike... that was nice of ya... :) I mean yer alright! I don't CARE what kakki says about ya! when she starts, I just don't lissen! ;o)))) cheers, pat NP; Refuge VHS - Woodstock (nice!) - --- "A liar never believes anyone and a thief always locks his doors." On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:13:13 Michael Paz wrote: >Hey Pat- >i meant to write you back and tell you hoe much i really liked your work. I >would love to hear you play it. Are there recordings of this in exsistence?? >It would be neat to put together and cd project of original songs from list >members as a project (even a tree). I have hear so many agreat originals >since I have been on this list. > >best > >Paz > >NP-Dog Dreams-The Story > >on 3/3/01 6:38 AM, P. Henry at badwolff@angelfire.com wrote: > >> (song I used to do) >> >> the country side was cold and still >> there was a cross upon a hill >> this cold cross wore a burning hood >> to hide it's ugly heart of wood >> >> father... I hear the iron sound >> of hoofbeats on the frozen ground >> >> down from the hill the riders came >> Lord it was a cryin' shame >> To see the blood upon their whips >> and hear the snarlin' of their lips >> >> mother... I feel a stabbing pain >> my blood runs down like summers rain >> >> now each one wore a mask of white >> to hide his cruel face from sight >> and each one sucked a hungry breath >> out from the empty lungs of death >> >> sister, come hod my bloody head >> it's so lonely to be dead >> >> now he who travels with the klan >> he's a devil and not a man >> and underneath that white disguise >> I have looked into his eyes >> >> brother... will you stand by me >> it's not easy to be free >> >> >> >> Who needs Cupid? Matchmaker.com is the place to meet somebody. >> FREE Two-week Trial Membership at http://www.matchmaker.com/home?rs=200015 >> > > Who needs Cupid? Matchmaker.com is the place to meet somebody. FREE Two-week Trial Membership at http://www.matchmaker.com/home?rs=200015 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:19:04 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #115 Hi Mike in Boston! > I am new to this listserve, actually have been a lurker for a long time. >> First of all, WELCOME!!! Glad you are coming out of lurkdom!! < did not go to Topsfield, I was a little to new at that > point, but I would love to take part this year. Can someone tell me about > the singing that goes on? Is there a band? Does anyone get up and do > something, or do you have to be asked? >> All the info about Jonifest, including the music sign-ups are at this address: jmdl.com - New England JoniFest 2001: The bottom line is...as long as all the requirements are met, (info, checks, etc.) everyone is welcome to come to Jonifest and participate in all areas. The music is more structured on Saturday, with time slots of about 20 minutes or so for each performer from noon until the evening. These slots must be signed up for in advance. All other music is very loose jamming from Friday evening until Sunday. There are many people that accompany each other both lossely and during the time slots. There are also ample "whole-group sing-a-longs" happening often. It is a LOT of fun, and since you are so close, you should make every effort to be there. I'm sure others will give their views on the music as well. As for your next buy, I would vote for For the Roses, but Ladies of the Canyon is also a good bet! Hugs, Ashara P.S. It's good idea not to copy the whole digest when replying, just the pertinent parts is a better idea. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:10:11 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: She don't like my grammar - --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > i'm sure that the lyrics say ''i'm drawn to those > ones that ain't AFRAID'', > which would supply the predicative. > my comment on this is that ''ones'' after ''those'' > is superfluous because > ''those'' is not a demonstrative pronoun in this > sentence. and, yes, > ''ain't'' sounds kind of terrible, ''don't'' it? > wallyK You're right, Wally. The "ones" in "those ones" is superfluous. The one thing I can never figure out is why so many popular songwriters, who speak perfectly good English, seem to lapse into this grammatically incorrect kind of English. I can't imagine Joni (or countless other popular songwriters) *saying* "ain't" but there it is in the song. Where's that at? ;) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:29:31 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar I was listening to the JT-Joni concert this morning, and this line jumped out at me from "The Gallery" "Then you began to hang up me You studied to portray me " It SHOULD be "you began to hang me up", right? Not that I'm fussing, mind you, Joni is brilliant in every way. I just thought since we're talking grammar, I'd throw this one to see what y'all thought...is she invoking the expression "Hang-up" like she was with "Where's that at"? Bob, off to the gym NP: Joni, "Carey" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:34:06 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > I was listening to the JT-Joni concert this morning, > and this line jumped out > at me from "The Gallery" > > "Then you began to hang up me > You studied to portray me " > > It SHOULD be "you began to hang me up", right? Not > that I'm fussing, mind > you, Joni is brilliant in every way. I just thought > since we're talking > grammar, I'd throw this one to see what y'all > thought...is she invoking the > expression "Hang-up" like she was with "Where's that > at"? > I think it's Joni being dual again (dualous? dualistic?) In other words, putting several different meanings into one little phrase. It could mean "hang up [as a painting]; or it could mean she's "hung-up" on the guy; or that he's holding her back. I'd go with all of the above (and maybe more.) Envying Bob going to the gym. Now I've got pneumonia and pleurisy and my ribs are killing me - I'm afraid to breathe, but if I don't, I'm dead, ain't I? Waiting for the antibiotics to really start kicking in... Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:38:04 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #115 - --- "Sally A. Bowers" wrote: > I have bought Turbulant > Indigo now, for the 4th time. I always seem to > "loose track" of this album, or someone takes it! My > next Joni album are down to these three, any votes > on which: > For The Roses > Ladies Of The Canyon > Taming The Tiger > I am leaning towards Ladies Of The Canyon, what do > you all think of this album? I hate to offer advice on this because everyone's taste is so different and it all depends on what you like. I love all of Joni's stuff, so that makes it doubly hard. If you're choosing from only those three, and you love "TI", I'd go for "TTT" because it's a bit like it (though not *that* much like it) - it dates from the same time and so would be a logical follow-up. If you like sweet and laid-back, kind of "hippy" music, go for LOTC. One of my personal favourites (among so many!) happens to be "FTR" and I don't think anyone could go wrong with that... ever! Is it all clear now? No? I thought not - why don't you just go for it and buy all of 'em? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:27:24 -0600 From: "Louise" Subject: Joni's granddaughter in the middle of divorce from hell NP-And OUr Faces, My Heart, Brief As Photos-The Story on 3/4/01 12:07 AM, Robert Holliston at rhollis@home.com wrote: > Yeah, I read this, too. I was appalled to think that this poor young woman is > having her dirty linen aired because she is the daughter of a celebrity. I > beg all of you not to go there. > Among all Canadian rags, I hate the National Post. It's like the [American] > National Review, except stupider. > Kilauren Gibb is obviously enduring some tough times. So have we all: let's > let her deal with them in privacy and in her own time, the way we all did. > That said, I hate to emerge from lurkdom to say something which may be > construed as negative. Joni's giving up her daughter for adoption was > selfless and wise. Her wish to contact her daughter thirty years later was > understandable. Her claim that she now has a family complete with > grandchildren has always struck me as self-absorbed and fraught with > potential difficulty. When you give a child up to adoption, surely you yield > parenthood to the adoptive parents. > Yuck! I'm disgusting even myself - this is a private matter and should be > treated as such. > > Ashamed of our Canadian media, and not for the first time, > Roberto I just have to respond to Roberto, because I fail to understand why he objects to the exposure of the serious problem in Canada of false allegations in the family courts. If he thinks that 20 month old children should be exposed to multiple allegations of child abuse without substantiating evidence, and should have their entire paternal family eliminated as a result, then I just have to disagree with him. The National Post did not cover most of the more controversial and lurid details of this case, but the family courts of Canada are sick, and they destroy infant children like Joni's granddaughter on a daily basis. The reason why they got so sick in the first place is because the media does not hold the court accountable for its bad decisions. As for being ashamed of the National Post, it is the leading national newspaper in the country after less than three years of publishing in this country. It would seem that very little of the Canadian public agrees with Roberto. I also feel a great compassion for Joni Mitchell, as she has had to deal with a very disturbed situation and with no end in sight. I think she has every right to be falling in love with her beautiful granddaughter, who looks just like her, and that does not take away from the adoptive grandparents at all. I don't mean to be rude, but Roberto doesn't know the whole picture here, and it is not pretty. Louise ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:12:17 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar Bob wrote: > > It SHOULD be "you began to hang me up", right? > > and then Catherine wrote: > > I think it's Joni being dual again (dualous? > dualistic?) In other words, putting several different > meanings into one little phrase. It could mean "hang > up [as a painting]; or it could mean she's "hung-up" > on the guy; or that he's holding her back. I hadn't thought of Catherine's interpretation but I think it's a good one. Entirely possible that Joni would come up with a clever way of saying more than one thing with a single phrase. But as far as the sequencing of the words 'hang up me' goes, setting the double entendre aside, I think she's emphasizing 'me'. In other words, you painted all of those other women and then you started to paint *me*. I don't think you would get quite the same meaning from 'you began to hang me up'. I don't think grammar is necessarily important in writing the lyrics to a song. Not that I'm a songwriter but it seems to me there are a lot of elements to writing a good lyric. It has to have some kind of rhythmic structure, to be really effective it has to convey some emotion and if you're really good, the words - images, combination of sounds, meter - will sound musical on their own. Joni often speaks in one character or another and sometimes those characters don't use perfect grammar. And sometimes re-arranging one or two words or phrases puts a whole new spin on the meaning as Bob's example illustrates. Also the choice of one word over another or sequencing the words in a different way just makes the thing flow and sound better. We're talking about writing songs here, not doctoral theses, right? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:22:11 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: the klan (forgive the rant) Pat- Thanks for the reply. I really understand where you are coming from. I have NEVER considered myself a songwriter (although I do write), I feel like the stuff I have written is not so hot. Most of the time I write from a very personal level and am not willing to put them out there for the world to chew on. I do however love to sing and play and there are so many wonderful songs out there, well you know. I had my taste of fortune and fame as well in Honduras from 1975 and 1983. It is probably more "big fish in small pond" syndrome, but it was so much fun. Your name and face in the paper all the time and people recognizing you in the street and saying hi or whatever. Being invited to play at all the important fests and stuff. I even sang the US National Anthem for the President of Honduras one time. It was all fun. I played in from of crowds of 10,000 people or in bars with just a few drunks that weren't listening anyways and I loved it all. My mom came to so many of my shows especially the large ones and one day during a gig at an american bar down there called the Last Chance Saloon she told me, that she thought I gave as much in all my performances no matter who many people were there. I use to play a little game while I was playing the club scenes. I had a knack for being able to sing and play but still listen to peoples conversations in the area of the stage. When I would take a break I would walk by and say hi or something and then make a comment about something they had been talking about, and then walk off. Out of the corner of my eye I got quite a few shocked looks, but I also got more attention or a quieter venue to play in. LOL. Oh thanks for taking me down memory lane. I have alway considered myself a pretty good singer, but my guitar playing is pretty so so. It was always more of a struggle for me than singing, but I always tried hard. I feel like what she said about Joni I had sort of the opposite thing happen to me with really good and talented people. I feel like they made me play better cause I felt like I had to. My long time friend (36 years) Dan and I had a jam yesterday from 3pm till 8:30 pm non stop. We played everythingfrom original instrumental fusion type stuff, to Joni, to Dave, to all the harmony groups of the 60's and 70's. I don't play out much that more but when I do I really have fun. Now it's mostly playing for and with the kids at home and hoping my musical taste will rub off on them like my parents did me. I was just in Honduras for a few days and had the chance to stop into a club and sit in with some old friends and play some of the oldies. I just love that. Thanks again Paz NP-If I Had It All-DMB on 3/11/01 7:53 AM, P. Henry Boland at badwolff@angelfire.com wrote: > hi mike, > I'm sorry if I somehow gave the impression > that I wrote that... no, it was probably > written somewhere between selma and > mongomery... maybe by the same person who wrote 'hey nelly, nelly' (same type > of song... driving and in your face) I don't > know who the author is but Gil Scott Heron > put it on his 1980 album, 'Real Eyes': > http://www.gilscottheron.com/REAL.htm (that > is floating around on napster if you want to > hear how he did it... I haven't heard it) and > there is a link there to the lyrics the way > he does it. (different from mine some) > if you look at the joni ad in the gallery > at: > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1502641&a=11682876&p=41512516&Sequence=0 > &res=high > you can see that the next week's performer > that december in '66 was a guy named Ron > Coden... well, Ron was the house performer and king at the best coffeehouse > around, the Raven and the first 'pro' folk oriented > artist I ever met, about 2yrs before I knew > Joni when I was just 15 and playing in my > first coffeehouse to a bunch of college kids. > it was Ron who taught me that song along with > 'early mornin' rain', 'hey nelly, nelly' and > my signature songs, 'you know my name' and 'if I had wings' as well as lots of > others. that was me, bro... pickin' up licks from the pros... I was really a > mockingbird who couldn't write a song to save my life... and that was my > downfall... > *ranting off topic now*..: > it may sound strange but if you've ever > stopped to wonder just why I gave up music > when I had everything going for me, a really > decent voice, a sufficient guitar style that > people liked, a *recording contract with > reprise* in the bag if I just wanted to sign > the papers and go make a record, that just > dropped in my lap way out in the sticks when > I'd never so much as sent out a demo tape! > (hell, I coulda blown away a LOT of the major > acts that made big money & fame around that > time!) well, you're the only one I've ever > really explained this to but the answer to > just what was it that cause me to give up my > music is that *it was Joni herself*! ...like > I said, it may sound strange... but it's > true. > see, I really really worked on my licks and > my sound and my stage presence and my look > and everything for 2 solid yrs before she > came to town... and I was, IMO, really > getting good... but what I was good at was > presenting what others had created or > arranged... and ya see, (this is hard to > explain) Joni and I became really tight... > and, tho I love her like crazy, it's just not > a good idea for someone so UNcreative to get > so close to the heat of someone like her. I > mean, it's not a pride thing... that could > never be an issue with her; it was just like > 'what's the point?'... like I got better and > better and didn't really know how far I could > go... and then Joni came along and showed me > undeniably just how far I *couldn't* go! > oh geez, I hope this makes *some* sense! the > ironic thing is that Joni really seemed to do > all she could to encourage me, and, as you > may have read before, I strongly suspect that > it was a word from her that prompted that > record contract offer... (it had to be > something to drag this company agent so far > off the beaten path when he coulda been in > phily, toronto, detroit, chicago, etc, where > there was SO much more happening... anyway, > it was just like 'standing next to her fire' > took all the wind out of my sails... my fault > not hers... my head/heart was screwed up ever > since my dad passed away when I was 12... > anybody else would have had to flourish in > such a lush environment... and I think a lot > did... (Rush, Anderson, Crosby, Stills, Nash, > Young... in fact, I might be nuts but I think > CSNY never woulda happened were it not for > Joni... just my opinion...) she's a muse, > man, she's a muse! ;o) > anyway, (wot a rant! LoL!) I really don't > have much of a voice left anymore... I AM > getting a mic for my puter and, if I can > figure out how, maybe I'll do something... > but I don't think I could ever do the Klan > again... that one takes a *lot* of voice! > we'll see, ok? :o) > btw, thanks for a really encouraging ltr, > mike... that was nice of ya... :) I mean yer > alright! I don't CARE what kakki says about > ya! when she starts, I just don't lissen! ;o)))) > > cheers, > pat > > NP; Refuge VHS - Woodstock (nice!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:31:20 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar Muller, part-time sex symbol, full-time Joni hater objected to: > "Then you began to hang up me > You studied to portray me " In addition to what Catherine said, (get WELL Catherine!) I'm thinking that * Using 'me' at the end of the line gives the following line, which also ends in "me" some symmetry. * She avoids the dangling prepositional. * Now that I see the two lines on a page, it even implies that the boyfriend is _examining_ the narrator, by placing her on the wall for examination, to use her as fodder for a new portrait. I know it's a stretch but if you hold this idea for just a second and re-read the couplet, you get. First line: He began to study me as a model. Second line: In order to portray me. I honestly don't think this was her *primary* meaning, but we all know that SIQUOMB works in mysterious and multiple ways. (Joni, I love your work.) And it does work very well that way. However I disagree that invoking "hang up" means that she's infatuated with him. I think she talking about "hang ups". As in, "I just can't enjoy hip-hop. It totally hangs me up." By reversing "me" and "up", she's breaking Michael Yarbourgh's "Stevie Wonder" rule. He objected to this (paraphrased) "When I was a little, nappy-headed boy, when my only worry, was what for Christmas what would be my toy." I stated when Michael put forth his law, that it didn't hang up me. :) As long as it doesn't result in a sing-song type of rhyme. My two cents. Lama np: a brown tabby cat in my lap, purring. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:23:03 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar << We're talking about writing songs here, not doctoral theses, right? >> I agree 100%, Mark...my purpose was just trying to provide examples of (possibly) awkward grammar for the guy who uses Joni songs in the classroom. When I taught 11th-12th grade Sunday School, I used lots of songs to make a point, and lots of Joni songs at that. I knew that Joni's lyrics would be unfathomable for a lot of these kids but if nothing else I was exposing them to her music. So I appreciate what an English Teacher is attempting to do and was just supporting his project... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:27:33 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar << Muller, part-time sex symbol, full-time Joni hater objected to: >> The only thing I object to is your description of me in this line. Please don't refer to me in this way again. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:45:11 -0500 From: "Sue Cameron" Subject: Welcome Hello Laurent, The list is a fun place to be. Best thing is that all of your questions will be answered....but not by me . Do not recognize the lyrics you mentioned as Joni's but I am sure that someone will pull through. Welcome! Sue Cameron N.P. dryer tumbling ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:14:40 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Grammar (VLJC) Hi folks, As a self-confessed English pedant (now there's a hostage to fortune), I am still puzzling over why the following line is being held to be incorrect in any way: "I didn't know I drank such a lot" If anyone was being mega-picky, you could insert the word "that" between "know" and "I", but is there something more obvious I've missed? As for "ain't", it could be argued that it's not so much grammatically wrong as sloppy - or just colloquial - English One of my favourite grammatical howlers is in Paul McCartney's Live & Let Die, which contains the immortal line "But in this ever-changing world in which we live in" Azeem in London, thinking of holding a memorial service for the correct use of the apostrophe... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:19:46 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Grammar (VLJC) Someone might think that the reference was to just one occasion, in which case the correct tense would have been "I didn't know I had drunk such a lot." "I didn't know I drank such a lot" sounds ironic...i.e., "so you really think I drink a lot, eh?" and refers to ongoing behavior. DAVID LAHM npimh Mr Murphy, my 5th grade English teacher ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:28:52 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: She don't like my grammar uhh... sure thing Bob. > -----Original Message----- > From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com [mailto:SCJoniGuy@aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 5:28 PM > To: jlamadoo@home.com; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar > > > << Muller, part-time sex symbol, full-time Joni hater objected to: >> > > The only thing I object to is your description of me in this line. Please > don't refer to me in this way again. > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:42:01 EST From: RPWieloh@cs.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #116 Hi to all, IM a new guy here and have been enjoying all the great information and exchange that is going on, thanks for welcoming me to your list. I feel that I should contribute some information concerning Jonatha Brooke I got this from WYEP's web site, its a local radio station that is filling a music void in our area of the world,Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania.Jonatha will appear locally at a place called "M" formally Metropool. "M" is located in a section of town known as the Strip District, the club is fine but tends to get very crowded and has very little seating, and in particular some lousy sight lines. I hope my first contribution is accepted in the spirit that it is intended and I hope for future input, Thanks again.Rich ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:46:11 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) 1) How does "Papa ooh mao mao" fit into all this. 2) Is "Rama lama ding dong" in any way grammatically correct? 3) What is past tense of "Bomp she bomp she bomp" 4) Shouldnt "Hey Joe where you goin' with that gun in yo hand" actually be "Where ARE you going with that gun in YOUR hand..." 5) Is "dip dadip dadip" in any tense at all. I have alot more questions but these are just for starters. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:12:40 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > Bob wrote: > > > > It SHOULD be "you began to hang me up", right? > > > > > But as far as the sequencing of the words 'hang up > me' goes, setting > the double entendre aside, I think she's emphasizing > 'me'. In other > words, you painted all of those other women and then > you started to > paint *me*. I don't think you would get quite the > same meaning from > 'you began to hang me up'. I agree with your point and also what you said about grammar. Songs are more like conversational speech and conversational speech isn't always grammatically or semantically correct - but people usually understand you anyway. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:45:38 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) I was always partial to BOOM shakalakalaka Boom shakalakalaka & tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit ah..... Paz NP-Wooden Ships-CSNPR/Walecki Benefit on 3/11/01 6:46 PM, MDESTE1@aol.com at MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > 1) How does "Papa ooh mao mao" fit into all this. > 2) Is "Rama lama ding dong" in any way grammatically correct? > 3) What is past tense of "Bomp she bomp she bomp" > 4) Shouldnt "Hey Joe where you goin' with that gun in yo hand" actually be > "Where ARE you going with that gun in YOUR hand..." > 5) Is "dip dadip dadip" in any tense at all. > > I have alot more questions but these are just for starters. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:55:21 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Grammar (VLJC) In a message dated 3/11/01 7:25:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, AzeemAK@aol.com writes: << As a self-confessed English pedant (now there's a hostage to fortune), I am still puzzling over why the following line is being held to be incorrect in any way: "I didn't know I drank such a lot" >> The "such a lot" could be considered awkward phrasing compared with "I didn't know I drank so much." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:13:47 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #116 Rich P Wieloh said: > I hope my first contribution is accepted in the spirit that it is > intended and I hope for future input, Thanks again.Rich Welcome Rich! Trust us, we are loving people! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:13:50 -0500 From: "Louis Lynch" Subject: Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) OK, Marcel, someone finally lured me into this thread. Joni uses bad grammar in her songs, especially when she's referring to conversation or writing in dialect. As Marcel's "rama dama ding dong" so cogently exemplified... Grammar and poetry are circles that intersect but do not overlap. Poetry simply doesn't follow the rules of grammar, and it never did. Bad grammar has been used in song for centuries: Is You Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby? Ain't No Mountain High Enough Twas a Lover and His Lass (Shakespearean, Dowland?) Poets have always twisted words around. Lewis Carroll and ee cummings were particularly brilliant at doing it. Even Homer did it, plus he was foolhardy enough to do it in ancient Greek! Naturally Joni would want to write with bad grammar sometimes -- she's writing about rock and roll people and modern times. She's also one of this century's best wordsmiths, so if Shakespeare and Homer and T. S. Eliot used bad grammar, then we have to be fair and let Joni Mitchell use it as much as she wants (as long as she doesn't overdo it and the commas are in the right places). [Thanks, Marcel, you make me laugh... And the past tense of Bomp She Bomp is "Had Bomped" and the subjunctive past is "She Bomp a Loo La."] It's fun to find these little nuances of poetic license in anyone's work. But... "She don't like my kick-pleat skirt, she don't like my eyelids painted green...." Just couldn't be written any better, I think. Musingly, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:26:09 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: the klan (forgive the rant) Pat, thanks for sharing this. I find it very interesting. "P. Henry Boland" wrote: > hi mike, > true. > see, I really really worked on my licks and > my sound and my stage presence and my look > and everything for 2 solid yrs before she > came to town... and I was, IMO, really > getting good... but what I was good at was > p ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #82 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?