From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #28 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, January 25 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 028 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Threefer Madness, 100% Joni Content ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] RE: Threefer Madness, 100% Joni Content ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #37 ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Larry Klein ["Bill Pearson" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #39 [RK1THXguy@aol.com] Re: Steely Dan & Joni - common title [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Threefer Madness and New York, New York [Emily Kirk Gray ] Joni/Juno [Steve Dulson ] threefer madnes ["J.David Sapp" ] #13 ["Stephen Epstein" ] Re: "Just Ice" ? [Phyliss Ward ] Memorial Day in New York [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: "Just Ice" ? [mintagli@email.ypf.com.ar] Re: #13 [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "Just Ice" ? ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: "Just Ice" ? ["Patricia O'Connor" ] Re: "Just Ice" ? ["cassy" ] Re: Justice is Just ice (long) ["Duane J. Corpis" ] Toronto,early days [greenstudio@sympatico.ca] Re: "Just Ice" ? ["Blair Fraipont" ] "Just Ice" and "Slouching" [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: "Just Ice" and "Slouching" [Jerry Notaro ] Re: "Just Ice" [Kate & CJ ] RE: "Just Ice" and "Slouching" ["Wally Kairuz" ] Joni and ... Batman?? (VLJC) [Lindsay Moon ] Re: "Just Ice" ? [catman ] Re: Justice is Just ice (long) [catman ] Re: Justice is Just ice (long) [catman ] Re: "Just Ice" ? [catman ] Fwd: Happy Birthday Jodi!!!!!!!!! [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Joni and ... Batman?? (VLJC) ["Victor Johnson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 03:11:30 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Threefer Madness, 100% Joni Content Did anyone get this trilogy of threefers? "three... oranges three... lemons three... plums" BTW, I'm reading photocopies made by the late Wally B. for a friend of spirit. (Thanks! I'll take good care of them and return them safely!) (Les-meister: I'll be checking with you to see if I can start typing from this stack but so far, Wally already beat me to the punch.) ANYWAY!! It seems that the "Mingus" project wasn't panned by everyone. Maybe the most important Jazz magazine of all is "down beat". Out of a possible 5 stars for excellent, downbeat rated "Mingus"....... (wait for it)..... five stars. The review by Leonard Feather begins, "This is a wonderful piece of work." Mr. Feather recognized (of course) that Joni's is perfectly channeling Annie Ross's "Farmer's Market" when she wrote "Dry Cleaner From Des Moines". Of "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" Mister Feather says, "Joni's lyrics, quite frankly, are profound: in the first five words, she manages to weave the song's original subject (Lester Young) and its composer into an epic framework of great emotional power: 'When Charlie speaks of Lester/You know someone great has gone/the sweetest swinging music man/had a porky-pig hat on/A bright star in a dark age/when the bandstands had a thousand ways of refusing a black man/admission./ Black musicians/In those days they put him in an underdog position/Cellars and chitlins.' " There's more of course, and the late Wally B. already posted it, so go to: www.jonimitchell.com/downbeat79.html If you don't have time, rest assured that down beat "got" Mingus even if Joni doesn't REMEMBER it that way!! You go girl! We love you!! Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 03:26:55 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: From the dancing dulcimerator.. Hi Steve, So, in Joni's song about a Greek man, she used a rhythm that she found in his country! Dave Brubeck would approve! Lama PS- This is certainly Joni Content Steve and a cool nugget at that! npimh: Blue Rondo Ala Turk from tonight's "Jazz" episode. - ------------------------------ Steve said, Carey is written in a Greek "syrtos" rhythm - the same as Cat Stevens' Rubylove - so you can dance a syrtos to those songs. Michele and I met doing this stuff.... - - -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 05:41:21 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Threefer Madness, 100% Joni Content of but it's a fourster ''3 oranges, 3 lemons, 3 cherries, 3 plums''. in any case they add up to 12 pieces of fruit and that's a multiple of 3. besides, the digits add 3 too!!!! so it's still very threeferly, jim. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Jim L'Hommedieu Enviado el: Jueves, 25 de Enero de 2001 05:12 a.m. Para: _JMDL - June 98 Asunto: Re: Threefer Madness, 100% Joni Content Did anyone get this trilogy of threefers? "three... oranges three... lemons three... plums" Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 04:00:46 -0500 From: Jason Long Subject: 'Blue' I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who answered my question about the HDCD version of _Blue_ a couple of days ago. I'm now torn on whether to buy the gold edition or the HDCD -- either one would be higher quality than the standard issue, but I get the feeling the HDCD would be easier to find. Also, while I have a fairly decent component system, it's probably not high-end enough to really distinguish much of a difference between the two. Ultimately, what I'll likely end up doing is buying whatever one I'm able to find when I go shopping for it tomorrow -- if both editions are in stock, I'll probably go for the gold one. Thanks again, Jase NP: "Don't Interrupt the Sorrow" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 04:00:19 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: Threefer Madness, 100% Joni Content Great catch Wally! I read the (incomplete) lyric in the down beat review and quoted it right off the page. I should have sung it out loud as a check! Anyway, thanks. And keep up the good work, birthday fairie! Lama > From: Wally Kairuz > of but it's a fourster > ''3 oranges, 3 lemons, 3 cherries, 3 plums''. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 05:18:21 -0500 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #37 Rob wrote: >Tori Amos poured her heart out on 'Little Earthquakes' and then had nothing >much to say on 'Under the Pink'. It took the end of her long relationships >with Eric ending to create the wonderful 'Boys for Pele' and her miscarriage >to bring about the very dark 'From the Choirgirl Hotel'. It seems that for >an artist to please their fans (and critics) they have to go through a >personal hell. I personally find this topic very interesting. It gets kicked around quite often on the Liz Phair list, especially at the time _whitechocolatespaceegg_ was released. Although that album does contain a couple of songs that are more personal than any others she's written (I'm thinking of "Go On Ahead" in particular), it does feel like she's keeping the listener at arms' length through much of the album. The songs are still great, but they just don't have the same impact -- they're more like character sketches of other people, whereas the songs on Liz's first two albums felt more like these revealing narratives about herself. A lot of her fans do chalk this up to the changes between her previous album four years earlier and that one -- she was now happily married, a new mother, and more sure of herself than she'd ever been. Gone was a lot of the turmoil and vulnerability of her earlier recordings. I sometimes wonder how Aimee Mann is going to fare on her next album. She's obviously a very gifted songwriter, but a lot of the material on her solo albums does seem fueled by the dysfunctional relationships she's had in the past and all of her record label battles. Now that she's married, happy, and in full control of her career, she doesn't have the same demons to draw upon. Of course, "Ghost World," one of the most fabulous songs on her new record, has nothing to do with any of the aforementioned subjects, and was in fact inspired by a graphic novel (sounds much better than comic book, no?) of the same name by Dan Clowes that she had read and loved. Stephen in Vancouver wrote: >Can't agree more w/you Jim!! I never purchased either Hits or Misses for >exactly that reason- the songs being out of context to the central theme. >I have often wondered why these were released- was it a JM decision, or the >record company's? It never really has made sense to me. You never purchased _Hits_? I hope you have "Urge For Going" in some other form then, because it would really be a shame if you haven't heard (and don't own) this song. I bought _Hits_ just for the express purpose of having that song on CD. I never did pick _Misses_ up myself, though, for the very reason you stated. I just didn't see the point, and it didn't contain any material I didn't already own. Cheers, Jase NP: Big Star, "September Gurls" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 07:23:57 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #37 jason!!! how many lists are you a member of?????? wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Jason Long Enviado el: Jueves, 25 de Enero de 2001 07:18 a.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #37 I personally find this topic very interesting. It gets kicked around quite often on the Liz Phair list ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:37:30 -0000 From: "Bill Pearson" Subject: Re: Larry Klein Hey Paz, I'm glad someone saw it :) For all that's been said, I was surprised that Joni was working on the new one so quickly. Bill > This is a very cool link! Thanks Bill > > Paz > > NP-It's A Given-Terri Hendrix > > > > on 1/18/01 5:12 AM, Bill Pearson at bill@l3r.com wrote: > > > Found this > > > > Bill > > > > http://www.worldsend.com/producers.html > > > > LARRY KLEIN is currently working on a new JONI MITCHELL album. He just > > completed touring with JONI MITCHELL as Musical Director. He recently > > completed tracks with ANNE McCUE for Relentless, JACKIE BRISTOW for > > Liberation and an orchestral album, "Both Sides Now" with JONI MITCHELL for > > Reprise. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 06:57:39 EST From: RK1THXguy@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #39 When I tried to download this, a message appeared stating "File Not Found". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:07:51 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Steely Dan & Joni - common title <> Correct-o-mundo, Sean...a song they recorded in the 60's for a film called "You Gotta Walk It Like You Talk It", and actually the only song on the soundtrack that has that trademark Steely Dan sound, imo... Bob NP: The Bluerunners, "Damaged Goods" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:20:14 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: Threefer Madness and New York, New York hi rose! um, as i wrote the second after i read david's email... i'm definitely in for the judy's extravaganza. - --emily (in brooklyn) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:43:27 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: HOSL demos Jack, If no one else has stepped up for you, I'll be glad to copy this CD for you. The balance of that CD tree is: Troubadour '72 Seattle '72 A Day In the Garden '98 4 CD's total, yours for the asking. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:46:36 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Shorter with Joni- live <> Ainoshi Festival – Todajiji Temple, Nara City, Japan 05/22/94 The music is on TT#6, Jim, you probably have the J-card. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:49:55 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Forward please? More Threefers These come courtesy of Cassy, she's experiencing technical difficulties...these are very cool, especially the last one from Lakota. ************************************************* A few more... Cassy Dog Eat Dog ~~~~~~~~~~ "Some downtown atmosphere... In the dance halls and the galleries or betting in the O.T.B." "No hearts of gold No nerves of steel No blame for what we can and cannot feel" "Fiction of the "buy me," "Watch me," "Listen to me" "Snakebite evangelists and racketeers and big wig financiers" "On and on the basic needs are defiled - good air - good water - good earth" "Wise guys, shy guys and sly lover boys with big bad bedroom eyes..." "Playboys, stray boys and "Say hey,hey" boys" "Cheaters, woman beaters and Huck Finn shucksters hopping parking meters" CMIARS ~~~~~~~~~ In the woodlands - footprints of a deer In the barrooms - poor drunk bastard falls In the courtrooms - deaf ears - sixty years. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:15:56 -0300 From: mintagli@email.ypf.com.ar Subject: Re: "Just Ice" ? Esteemed, patient List, since it weighs on my conscience, I wanted to share this feeling with you: "Sex kills" is the only Joni song I hate (so far). I cannot not hate a song that contains such a foolish line as this: "Is justice just ice?" What?! Am I missing something? Mariana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 07:41:38 -0800 From: "BRIAN SYMES" Subject: Sweet Sucker Dance3/3 Sweet Sucker Dance Some get broken some get mended some can't surrender Some get lucky some are blessed and some pretend Your such a sweet love Your a proud man you're a treasure Its only a dance! Morning Oregon Meditation The sun rises behind Mt Hood again before it slips above the coastal clouds all the trees are naked but the plums are budding out to show there first voilet flowers The earth is a naked this morning but slowly clothing herself in spring. Bye - ----------------------- Free Email Service provided to you by Office.com, a service from Winstar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 07:58:25 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Joni/Juno I just saw a list of the nominees for Canada's Juno awards. It includes: Best Vocal Jazz Album Joni Mitchell Both Sides Now - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:08:55 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: threefer madnes 1.Peridots and 2.periwinkle blue medallions 3.Gilded galleons spilled across the ocean floor The roll of the harbor wake The songs that the rigging makes The taste of the spray he takes Come down from the neon nights Come down from the tourist sights Run down till the rain delights you A dream that you love someone A dream that the wars are done A dream that you tell no one but the grey sea peace,david ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:03:07 -0500 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: #13 Thanks to Bob Muller, I am now enjoying Covers and Contributions Volume 13. Bob, where DO you find these people?? Shawn Colvin's "River" is sublime, but my faves are the 3 by Lydia Van Dam group- who is this gal? Tremendous jazz takes on Joni's classics. And David Hay- what a strong voice. I urge all of you to get this Volume, if it isn't already in your collection. And Bob, thanks again. Stephen in Vancouver ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:33:16 -0800 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: "Just Ice" ? Yes, you are missing something. But that's ok, hang around here for a while and you will soon have a PhD in Joni. She was inspired to think about Justice and then write the song after seeing a license plate that said "Just Ice"...the cadillac in the first line of the tune. Get a copy of the "Painting with Words and Music" video and she tells the rest of the story... mintagli@email.ypf.com.ar wrote: > Esteemed, patient List, > > since it weighs on my conscience, I wanted to share this feeling with you: "Sex > kills" is the only Joni song I hate (so far). I cannot not hate a song that > contains such a foolish line as this: "Is justice just ice?" What?! > > Am I missing something? > > Mariana - -- Phyliss mailto:pward@datacourse.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:50:27 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Memorial Day in New York I will do my very best to be there. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:07:05 -0300 From: mintagli@email.ypf.com.ar Subject: Re: "Just Ice" ? >She was inspired to think about Justice and then write the song after seeing a license plate that said "Just Ice"...the cadillac in the first line of the tune.> I know the story, I just think it's a silly line -a failed wordplay to express a thought that's not only unoriginal but untrue. Thanks anyway. Mariana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:06:32 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: #13 <> You and a bunch of others, Stephen! Lucky #13 has proven to be very popular, so if anyone missed it and is interested, let me know and we'll get you hooked up. <> My first and BEST resource is fellow JMDLer's...the great folks who scour the record stores, their own collections, even their own memories for inclusions. I dig through music websites too, they can be fun, although sometimes a little overwhelming. (Go to Amazon.com and do a sort on songs containing the word "River"!) ;~) Yesterday I found out that Queen does a version of (You're So Square) Baby, I Don't Care...cool! If you want to be a contributor, and earn a free copy of a Volume, just go to "Joni Undercover" at jmdl.com and take a look at what we're searching... <> I agree, Stephen! I had never heard of this collection until Monica sent me the CD. I was TOTALLY blown away by all 10 tracks. I e-mailed the record company in Holland to get info on how JMDLer's could pick up the disc. No reply. I asked again. No reply. I researched Lydia on the web, to see if the 1999 release was still in print. I located her management group and asked about ordering info and availability of the CD. No answer. Damn! So, I decided to go ahead and include the 10 tracks as part of our project. There are 3 on #13, and another will pop up on #14. (Her fab version of People's Parties which gets a Steely Dan piano treatment). Bob NP: Earl Bostic, "Twilight Time" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:06:58 -0500 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: "Just Ice" ? > >She was inspired to think about Justice and then > write the song after seeing a license plate that said "Just Ice"...the cadillac > in > the first line of the tune.> > > I know the story, I just think it's a silly line -a failed wordplay to express a > thought that's not only unoriginal but untrue. It seems to me in this song that she is asking a question, "Is Justice just ice? Governed by greed and lust?" So, I don't see how this can be untrue, when she is asking a question about justice, not stating a fact. Sex is a powerful thing if you think about it. The same thing that can give birth to something beautiful can destroy and tear people up. The same thing that can seem so soft and warm can also seem cold and hard like ice. I find it an interesting analogy because justice seems to be something that is cold and hard, without warmth. And although I watch a lot of television on Fox (Sunday nights from 7 till 10, Monday from 8 till 10, Tuesday at 9...not religously mind you but in general-that's not so bad is it?), I am somewhat disturbed that they have chosen to feature the show "Temptation Island" which makes a spectacle out of trying to rip two people apart by tempting them with sex? It seems like a sick idea to me that this is supposed to be entertainment. And if you've been watching the news you might have heard that 11 people have been brought up on charges of child prostitution in Atlanta involving girls around the age of 12 and 13. And apparently, pimping is not even a felony, it's only a misdemeanor! Where's the justice there? I don't find anything silly about this song. I think Joni hit something right on the nose. I don't think she could have penned it any better. It would be nice to imagine that such atrocities didn't exist but unfortunately they do. These girls are even tied up and beaten. It's really really scary to think that there are people who actually get a thrill from such things. And the oil spill that just happened in the Galagapus Islands. Please, please tell me what there is in this song that is not true because it seems way too vivid and so on the mark. Victor, who rarely participates in song analysis but felt inspired http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Just beyond the morning falls the river of your dreams, Escaping from the day these wild creatures run away." Victor Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:44:57 -0500 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Re: "Just Ice" ? Mariana wrote: > I know the story, I just think it's a silly line -a failed wordplay I agree with Mariana. "JUST-ICE" may be clever on a license plate but it's nearly meaningless in the song. To take it further: "Lawyers haven't been this popular, since Robespierre slaughtered half of France" would be a charming, sarcastic comment at a dinner party (unless of course the other guest were predominately lawyers:>) but does nothing for the lyric. Patricia O'Connor p.a.oconnor@att.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:44:39 -0500 From: "cassy" Subject: Re: "Just Ice" ? Mariana said: >>> since it weighs on my conscience, I wanted to share this feeling with you: "Sex kills" is the only Joni song I hate (so far). I cannot not hate a song that contains such a foolish line as this: "Is justice just ice?" What?! Am I missing something? <<< Is "justice just ice?" Some may consider it so, to me it means that justice is a cold unfeeling process and has no regard for the consideration of individuals. Ice is hard, without any warmth whatsoever much as our judicial system can be. Cassy NP: Bruce Hornsby "Mandolin Rain" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:00:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Duane J. Corpis" Subject: Re: Justice is Just ice (long) Just my 2 cents, I do not think that Joni is saying that greed and lust created HIV or AIDS. When I first heard this song, I was a little put off by it, and I consider myself a good ole progressive liberal sympathetic to the message that I think Joni is trying to convey. I just didn't like the execution of the message in the song. I think Joni has some really clever political songs ("Paved Paradise") and some moving social commentaries ("Cherokee Louise" or "Magdelane Laundries"), but this song really doesn't do it for me. As others have pointed out, it's too eclectic, though I think from Jim's lengthy analysis of the lyrics, he dislikes the eclectism b/c it is a list that sounds like a liberal mantra with little fact or reality behind it. I don't agree with his political interpretation, but I do agree that as an aesthetic matter, the political message is watered down and rendered absurd with its rapid fire laundry list of social, economic and political ills. Nevertheless, I think the line "Sex sells everything and sex kills" refers to the fact that in a post-AIDS society, we continue to use sex to sell products, we still valorize youth, beauty and sexuality -- the nubile body of a woman or the muscular body of a man -- to sell beer, cars, Hollywood, the music industry (the Backstreet Boys, Brittainy Spears), etc. etc. I think the song is saying that corporations use and manipulate images of sexuality to sell products, but they ignore the cultural messages that these images project. Do these images create unrealistic expectations about our bodies? About our sex lives? Are companies profiting off of the American public's lack of self-esteem, on the one hand, (most Americans are by medical standards out of shape and overweight), and at the same time are they making profits from our excessive body-image consciousness and encouraging us to neglect our minds and spirits? I think this is a long-standing critique that Joni has had about consumer society, and especially about the music industry. Furthermore, this lyric may be an attempt to question whether these images of sex and sexuality reproduce certain normative gender assumptions -- that women should look and act like the sexy vixens that they seem to be in beer ads, and that men should look and act like the macho studs they seem to be in the same ads. Sex sells everything -- but are the media images of sex and sexuality responsible images, especially in a post-AIDS world in which a whole new generation of gay and lesbian activists have come to see the political dimensions of sex and sexuality or in which unsafe sexual practices may have a link to an unthinking, uncritical assimilation of sexual images propagated by the media and advertising. Not a defense of the song, which I always have to skip on the cd player, but a possible interpretation of one of the lines that others have argued doesn't make any sense. Ciao, Duane ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2001 16:03:05 -0500 From: greenstudio@sympatico.ca Subject: Toronto,early days I'm up in Canada here, eh, just outside of the megacity -they actually call it that- Toronto, and I'm wondering if anyone who knew the Riverboat back in the old folkie days when it was rocking in the rain, remembers a tall (over six foot) girl named Barbara Bonnell, who used to frequent the coffeehouses and blues bars with her mother. The mother was shorter, kind of looked like Ma Kettle. Characters. They had a farm north of T.O. where they raised dogs, horses, had a Barbary goat......a big old house. Ian Tyson, Sylvia, Gordon Lightfoot, John Prine, Ronny Hawkins, Sonny Terry and Brownie Mcgee, that ilk used to party there.....I was too young. I missed it. I knew Barbara only the last twenty odd years. This does have a Joni connection. Bear with me. Barbara hated Joni Mitchell and her music with a passion that seemed unreasonable......more based on social crap in the little city that was Toronto not so very long ago. Joni's music was one of the few things Barb and I disagreed on in a long rather drunken friendship that meant the world to me. Barb passed away last year, in great style and surprisingly good humour....I 'm sorry if this is new sadness to anyone who knew her.....I ended up tidying her estate, sitting in an amazingly dirty house full of ghosts, finding jokes she'd written down -she was famous for her jokes here- among letters, poetry, photos, playing her guitar....it was worn down in open tunings and worn down with the blues....I could feel my thumb fall into place in the dark, on the third, on the seventh, on the fifth.....literally playing to ashes. They were in her mother's writing desk under the cowboy hat, beside the bottle of Jack for toasting her...A strange time. Like something from "Other Voices, Other Rooms". Barb's family were more embarrassed by her wildness than proud of it, shall we say. So there was an element of urgency in going through her letters, her memorabilia....there still is, for me. Anyway, for all her Joni- hating, at the bottom of a box Barb set aside for me I found an old, small, poster advertising a week at the Riverboat. There, with John Prine, and Oddetta, was a little picture of a very pretty, heartbreaker Joni....and a little further down in the box, under pictures of drunken celebrities, was an earlier item, a gestetner print on cheap stock advertising a beginner's songwriting workshop on a Wednesday night....conducted by newcomers Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell. Jeez...that's when I broke down. Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has memories of Barbara....I have some of her journals, Riding club stuff, a novel, some poetry, many pictures, and I'm putting together a memorial, slowly, carefully.... she knew so many folks and I'd like to be more comprehensive than I'm being. I'm too close to it. Sorry for being longwinded here, and for this being not really Joni-related, but I see occasionally people mention the old places in this forum, see names familiar from yellowed correspondence, and I'm fishing. Thankyou. This is my first participation here. I was rather isolated at the farm and you've all been company. Take care. rocky, greenstudio@sympatico.ca Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:13:20 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: "Just Ice" ? Great Statement! Sex can go both ways. To think of that, how many artist persist in praising sex and not many people take a stab at the other side. Inface all of turbulent Indigo is very Socio-Conscious album about the wrongs of society.When people sad it was her "new blue" or the best ablum since blue, i thought that was such a crock.. if you really listen to the album you should be shivering in your covers..thinking about what a twisted (and wonderful) world we live in. Another thing.. some people can say that an Artists work doesnt "speak" for a generation anymore.. i.e. People said that about Dylan in the 80's and eventhough some of his work was a bit mediocre, songs like "Jokerman" and "Union Sundown" say more about what was going on at that time than alot of other music.. and I feel the same for Joni.. with TI. But, also, It is scary, what people can get away with and what people are doing to others out there. blair F. > > >She was inspired to think about Justice and then > write the song after >seeing a license plate that said "Just Ice"...the cadillac > in > the first >line of the tune.> > > I know the story, I just think it's a silly line -a >failed wordplay to express a > thought that's not only unoriginal but >untrue. > >It seems to me in this song that she is asking a question, "Is Justice just >ice? Governed by greed and lust?" So, I don't see how this can be untrue, >when she is asking a question about justice, not stating a fact. > >Sex is a powerful thing if you think about it. The same thing that can give >birth to something beautiful can destroy and tear people up. The same thing >that can seem so soft and warm can also seem cold and hard like ice. I find >it an interesting analogy because justice seems to be something that is >cold and hard, without warmth. And although I watch a lot of television on >Fox (Sunday nights from 7 till 10, Monday from 8 till 10, Tuesday at >9...not religously mind you but in general-that's not so bad is it?), I am >somewhat disturbed that they have chosen to feature the show "Temptation >Island" which makes a spectacle out of trying to rip two people apart by >tempting them with sex? It seems like a sick idea to me that this is >supposed to be entertainment. And if you've been watching the news you >might have heard that 11 people have been brought up on charges of child >prostitution in Atlanta involving girls around the age of 12 and 13. And >apparently, pimping is not even a felony, it's only a misdemeanor! Where's >the justice there? I don't find anything silly about this song. I think >Joni hit something right on the nose. I don't think she could have penned >it any better. It would be nice to imagine that such atrocities didn't >exist but unfortunately they do. These girls are even tied up and beaten. >It's really really scary to think that there are people who actually get a >thrill from such things. And the oil spill that just happened in the >Galagapus Islands. Please, please tell me what there is in this song that >is not true because it seems way too vivid and so on the mark. > > >Victor, who rarely participates in song analysis but felt inspired > >http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson > >"Just beyond the morning falls the river of your dreams, Escaping from the >day these wild creatures run away." Victor Johnson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:18:42 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: "Just Ice" and "Slouching" In a message dated 1/25/01 9:46:46 AM, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << I think Mark was pretty accurate when he said that it was just Joni's statement that the world can be pretty fucked up and that "the balance is undone". >> Exactly. I think the thoughts expressed in this song make it a lot like a modern version of W. B. Yeats' poem "Slouching Toward Bethlehem," which, of course, Joni turned into a song. (I tried to find Yeats' poem, but I can't.) Joni's version is slightly different, but the mood is the same. Here are a few lines from the song: Things fall apart The center cannot hold And the blood dimmed tide Is loosed upon the world Nothing is sacred The ceremony sinks Innocence is drowned In anarchy The best lack conviction Given some time to think And the worst are full of passion Without mercy In any case, neither of these songs is a very good candidate for the happy songs thread! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:43:59 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: "Just Ice" and "Slouching" Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Exactly. I think the thoughts expressed in this song make it a lot like a > modern version of W. B. Yeats' poem "Slouching Toward Bethlehem," which, of > course, Joni turned into a song. (I tried to find Yeats' poem, but I can't.) > Joni's version is slightly different, but the mood is the same. Here are a > few lines from the song: > > Things fall apart > The center cannot hold > And the blood dimmed tide > Is loosed upon the world > > Nothing is sacred > The ceremony sinks > Innocence is drowned > In anarchy > The best lack conviction > Given some time to think > And the worst are full of passion > Without mercy The original: The Second Coming TURNING and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand. The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:45:09 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Old News?? (JC) Gang, First; sounds like a good time was had by all in LA. Did the shirts make it (via Nikki)? Second; (Sorry if this has been discussed before) the Joni Mitchell mention on Zappa's 'Billy the Mountain" Anyone heard this? Love, Russ the t-shirt guy - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:56:59 -0500 From: Kate & CJ Subject: Re: "Just Ice" > I agree with Mariana. "JUST-ICE" may be clever on a license plate but it's > nearly meaningless in the song. Delurking to add a "me too" on this one. I never really connected with this imagery to get to the "sex kills" thing, which I think is as strong as the opening is weak. I always despised that "is it sexy enough" crap. When I worked in video production for CARE (the international relief and development organization) the PR manager used to call for "sexy" in our stories about starvation, poverty, etc. Are we so shallow? So inured to suffering. Maybe, but I'm sick of the lowest common denominator. ME TOO, JONI! Back to the shadows, CJ (who is a very big Giants fan despite the fact that (american) football may appeal in a rather big way to the aforementioned LCD) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:28:47 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: "Just Ice" and "Slouching" here's the complete text of yeats' poem and some comments wallyK The Second Coming by William Butler Yeats - 1921 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Turning and turning Within the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer Things fall apart The center cannot hold And a blood dimmed tide Is loosed upon the world Nothing is sacred The ceremony sinks Innocence is drowned In anarchy The best lack conviction Given some time to think And the worst are full of passion Without mercy Surely some revelation is at hand Surely it's the second coming And wrath has finally taken form For what is this rough beast Its hour come at last Slouching towards Bethlehem to be born Slouching towards Bethlehem to be born Hoping and hoping As if by my weak faith The spirit of this world Would heal and rise Vast are the shadows That straddle and strafe And struggle in the darkness Troubling my eyes Shaped like a lion It has the head of a man With a gaze as blank And pitiless as the sun And it's moving its slow thighs Across the desert sands Through dark indignant Reeling falcons Surely some revelation is at hand Surely it's the second coming And the wrath has finally taken form For what is this rough beast Its hour come at last Slouching towards Bethlehem to be born Slouching towards Bethlehem to be born Raging and raging It rises from the deep Opening its eyes After twenty centuries Vexed to a nightmare Out of a stormy sleep By a rocking cradle By the Sea of Galilee Surely some revelation is at hand Surely it's the second coming And the wrath has finally taken form For what is this rough beast Its hour come at last Slouching towards Bethlehem to be born Slouching towards Bethlehem to be born written 1919, published 1920 Yeats moved from writing about a specific event to generalized notion of time in "Second Coming" From drafts (that his wife pulled out of the trash), we know that earlier versions "alluded to the overthrow of the Russian czar in 1917, to Russia having surrendered a large portion of Eastern Europe to Germany in 1918, and to the disintegration of the rule of law in Ireland during 1918 and 1919" (O'Donnell 83). He removed details and replaced with generalized description of his theory of 2000-yr cycles of history: "In those cycles, each successive civilization has values that are diametrically opposed to those of the preceding civilization, and the onset of each new civilization is announced by the sudden manifestation of an event, such as Helen of Troy or Christ" (O'Donnell 83). Yeats thought that after 20 centuries of Christianity, the world could expect a return to paganism, which would be "utterly alien and therefore shocking" (83). The cycles suggested by the gyre (spiral) of the falcon which is too far away from its handler to hear the commands, and is therefore out of control. back - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Murphycopy@aol.com Enviado el: Jueves, 25 de Enero de 2001 06:19 p.m. Para: SCJoniGuy@aol.com; jlamadoo@home.com CC: joni@smoe.org Asunto: "Just Ice" and "Slouching" In a message dated 1/25/01 9:46:46 AM, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << I think Mark was pretty accurate when he said that it was just Joni's statement that the world can be pretty fucked up and that "the balance is undone". >> Exactly. I think the thoughts expressed in this song make it a lot like a modern version of W. B. Yeats' poem "Slouching Toward Bethlehem," which, of course, Joni turned into a song. (I tried to find Yeats' poem, but I can't.) Joni's version is slightly different, but the mood is the same. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:39:12 -0800 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Joni and ... Batman?? (VLJC) My four-year-old boy is a Batman fanatic and has found at the library compilations of the original Batman cartoons from the 30's and 40's drawn by the originator, Bob Kane. Today we were reading an episode and look at the language I found ... "I do not wish to seem ungrateful ..." (For the Roses: "I know I seem ungrateful/with my teeth sunk in the hand ...") "To the victor belong the spoils .." (Number One: "To the victor go the spoils/honey, did you win or lose?") "Cohorts in crime, Weasel and his men gain entrance to the hospital singly and in pairs ..." (Song for Sharon: "Now there are 29 skaters on Wollman rink/circling singly and in pairs ...") Just seemed funny how the little turns of phrase seem to parallel with some of Joni's choices. I know she's said she was kind of a good-time Charlie in grade school and read lots of comic books ... hmmm. By the way, there is some language that, of course, is quite dated (like I have to explain to my son what war bonds are that they mention in some of the comics) but one thing I haven't figured out. Whenever they have a newspaper boy calling out the headlines to the passersby, he says, "Wuxtry! Wuxtry! Joker still alive! Wuxtry!" What does "wuxtry" mean and/or what is its origin? I don't find it in my dictionary and neither of my parents who would know are with us anymore. Just curious. Waiting to hear from you resourceful librarians ... Musing in San Diego, Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:42:31 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: "Just Ice" ? > And if you've been watching the news you might have heard > that 11 people have been brought up on charges of child prostitution in > Atlanta involving girls around the age of 12 and 13. And apparently, > pimping is not even a felony, it's only a misdemeanor! They should be being charged with child abuse and locked away permenantly. It is only very recently that child prositutes in this country are being treated as victims and not criminals. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:49:45 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Justice is Just ice (long) > Are companies profiting off of > the American public's lack of self-esteem, Adverts contribute to people's lack of self esteem by constantly telling people they are not good enough. Two ads that really piss me off: one is for McCain oven chips where it actually says that if you don't serve these to your kids, you anit a good mum! And thos awful 'because I'm worth it' Loreal ads. And the wrinkle cream ads. Not only do they show impossibly pretty women, who are young, but they also airbrush the wrinkles away! The creams cost a fortune. The sad thing is people fall for it all the time. They fall for the 'taking care of myself shows I have good esteem' crap! I find the whole business of ads sickening. Most prgrammes(oif not on BBC) I record so that I can whiz thru the ads! bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:49:48 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Justice is Just ice (long) > Are companies profiting off of > the American public's lack of self-esteem, Adverts contribute to people's lack of self esteem by constantly telling people they are not good enough. Two ads that really piss me off: one is for McCain oven chips where it actually says that if you don't serve these to your kids, you anit a good mum! And thos awful 'because I'm worth it' Loreal ads. And the wrinkle cream ads. Not only do they show impossibly pretty women, who are young, but they also airbrush the wrinkles away! The creams cost a fortune. The sad thing is people fall for it all the time. They fall for the 'taking care of myself shows I have good esteem' crap! I find the whole business of ads sickening. Most prgrammes(oif not on BBC) I record so that I can whiz thru the ads! bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:51:54 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: "Just Ice" ? > Is "justice just ice?" Some may consider it so, to me it means that > justice is a cold unfeeling process and has no regard for the > consideration of individuals. Ice is hard, without any warmth > whatsoever much as our judicial system can be. That is how I take it too, Cassy. i rank this song as one of my favourites. I particulalry like the drum ending. Sex killing people is not knew. Here in the UK, prior to penicillin, 64000 per year died of Syphillis. I am shocked to read that some people consider AIDS to be the result of lust and greed. So much for education! bw colin > > > Cassy > NP: Bruce Hornsby "Mandolin Rain" - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:07:03 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Happy Birthday Jodi!!!!!!!!! Return-path: From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Full-name: RoseMJoy Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:06:14 EST Subject: Happy Birthday Jodi!!!!!!!!! To: johnsonjs@earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 130 Happy F#@*ing Birthday Jodi!!!!!!!!!!! Hope you can make it to Judy's Chelsea too :~) - -Hugs Rose ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:41:32 -0500 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Joni and ... Batman?? (VLJC) > Wuxtry! Joker still alive! Wuxtry!" What does "wuxtry" mean and/or what > is its origin? I don't find it in my dictionary and neither of my parents > who would know are with us anymore. Just curious. Waiting to hear from > you resourceful librarians ... There's an independent record store called "Wuxtry" located in Atlanta and Athens. Maybe they know... Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Just beyond the morning falls the river of your dreams, Escaping from the day these wild creatures run away." Victor Johnson > > Musing in San Diego, > > Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:30:56 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and ... Batman?? (VLJC) << (For the Roses: "I know I seem ungrateful/with my teeth sunk in the hand ...")>> This one seems more closely tied to the "don't bite the hand that feeds" proverb... << "To the victor belong the spoils .." (Number One: "To the victor go the spoils/honey, did you win or lose?")>> I'm not sure where "To the victor belong the spoils .." originated...Aesop's Fables maybe? <<"Cohorts in crime, Weasel and his men gain entrance to the hospital singly and in pairs ..." (Song for Sharon: "Now there are 29 skaters on Wollman rink/circling singly and in pairs ...") >> LOL! I love this one, like a cross between Song For Sharon and Weasel & The White Boys Cool! Bob NP: Joshua Redman, "I Had A King" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:37:38 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Toronto,early days In a message dated 1/25/01 4:37:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, greenstudio@sympatico.ca writes: << Joni's music was one of the few things Barb and I disagreed on in a long rather drunken friendship that meant the world to me. Barb passed away last year, in great style and surprisingly good humour... >> Rocky, I'm so sorry to hear of your friends passing. It sounds like she left quite a legacy behind. Good luck in your fishing. Hope you snag something. Rose in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:53:51 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: Old News?? (JC) Yea, i think someone mentioned that before.. I think he poked fun at her for having many lovers. They both lived in Laurel Canyon at the same time, and she had dated a member of the Mothers of Invention. Someone also mentioned earlier last year about in the early 70's Joni got up on stage and read a Poem "Penelope"... or somethign like that about a woman wanting to fuck the sea. Blair >From: "Russell Bowden" >Reply-To: "Russell Bowden" >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Old News?? (JC) >Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:45:09 -0800 > >Gang, > >First; sounds like a good time was had by all in LA. Did the shirts make >it (via Nikki)? > >Second; (Sorry if this has been discussed before) the Joni Mitchell >mention on Zappa's 'Billy the Mountain" Anyone heard this? > >Love, > >Russ the t-shirt guy > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #28 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?