From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #463 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, December 13 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 463 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- JMDL Digest V2000 #650 ( -Reply) ["Craig Waltress" ] Joni Mitchell site in crisis ["At Home Accnt" ] RE: saving jm.com ["Deb Messling" ] Re: saving jm.com [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Joni piano music for "Blue" at jmdl.com [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: saving jm.com [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: The '83 Milan Joni Riots (For Free?) [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] saving jm.com [Anne Sandstrom ] RE: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com ["Garret" ] Re: full moon and wolves [Catherine McKay ] Today in Joni History - December 12 [Today in Joni History ] Re: jm.com woes [Catherine McKay ] JMDLnet ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: JMDLnet ["Lori R. Fye" ] JMDL auction for jm.com ["Eric Wilcox" ] RE: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com [Don Rowe ] carly simon/jm.com ["BRIAN SYMES" ] LJC -- Story of a Randaholic--LONG [Al Date ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 02:13:05 -0600 From: "Craig Waltress" Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #650 ( -Reply) **************************************************************** Please Note The information in this E-mail message is legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute, or forward this E-mail message. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender. Thank you ***************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 05:31:50 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2000 #650 ( -Reply) aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! craig waltress: i'm warning you!!!!!!! wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Craig Waltress Enviado el: Martes, 12 de Diciembre de 2000 05:13 a.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: JMDL Digest V2000 #650 ( -Reply) **************************************************************** Please Note The information in this E-mail message is legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute, or forward this E-mail message. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender. Thank you ***************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:06:51 -0500 From: "At Home Accnt" Subject: jm.com woes Hi Les, What do you think about moving jm.com to smoe. Is this their type of thing or is smoe just for lists? All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:24:13 -0500 From: "At Home Accnt" Subject: Joni Mitchell site in crisis Hi Foggy, My friend Jim Johanson over at jonimitchell.com has been thrown out of his hosting relationship without any notice. They just kicked the plug out of the socket, so to speak. Whom do you use? How can I get a rate for JJ? What are the alternatives? Thanks! All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu "Someone's got it in for me. They're planting stories in the the press. Who ever it is better cut it out quick. When they will I can only guess." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:36:35 -0500 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: saving jm.com Surely jonimitchell.com is not lost, just temporarily unavailable, right? I'm sure Jim has backups of all the files. It's a matter of finding a new home for them. Deb Messling - ------------------------------------ "I like cats. They give the home a heartbeat." ~Joni Mitchell - ------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:11:58 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: saving jm.com In a message dated 12/12/00 6:38:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, messling@enter.net writes: << Surely jonimitchell.com is not lost, just temporarily unavailable, right? I'm sure Jim has backups of all the files. It's a matter of finding a new home for them. >> Yes, that is correct. Jim has backup for all the files. He would never trust anyone with those files. - -Rose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:19:24 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni piano music for "Blue" at jmdl.com In a message dated 12/11/00 6:04:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, howard@souzoukakia.netscapeonline.co.uk writes: << Calling all piano players! I've just added the piano music for "Blue" to the jmdl.com site, so if you're interested to try it, >> Thanks so much for adding piano music Howard. Since I can't play the guitar, I've never gone to the tablature site in my entire 3 yrs. on the JMDL. I can't play the piano either, but I do have one sitting in my living room. Maybe now I'll learn to play. Thanks again for all your wonderful contributions. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:21:41 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: saving jm.com In a message dated 12/12/00 2:09:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, wallykai@fibertel.com.ar writes: << I have an original program book of the refuge of the roads tour. would that be worth anything? >> Absolutely, anything Joni is worth something. - -Rose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:56:54 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: The '83 Milan Joni Riots (For Free?) <> Hi Robert! Thanks for the explanation on that ruckus. When I first heard the show, I assumed there was some disturbance outside the hall that had little to do with the show. Does that also have any correlation with her coming back on for her encore and leading the audience in that "call-and-response" chant? To me, that's the highlight of the show! Bob NP: XTC, "All Along The Watchtower" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:10:52 -0500 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: saving jm.com I'm still catching up on the last couple of days of digests, so forgive me if I'm asking questions that have already been answered. Jim, I assume you have the info you used to upload files. If the physical machine still exists, and they haven't actually erased all files, we can get them back. (Or do you have a backup of the files?) Les, I'm sure you've probably already given Jim advice on this, so I'm sorry if I'm being repetitive. I'll be more than willing to help restore the site, find a new ISP, contribute funds, etc. Jim, I write books on how to create Web sites. Actually, I wrote the manual for the product that Les uses to create JMDL.COM. So, between us, I think we can get jm.com back up and running... lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:12:15 -0000 From: "Garret" Subject: RE: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com Just like alison i too recently bid for the first time on Ebay. i was outbid (by "professional" bidders probably:-) on the first few items i went for. but tehn i found a really obscure piece of memorabilia that a friend of mine would love, and i "won". it should arrive any day soon. at first i was a little reluctant to bid but i heard some good things from JMDLers and i went for it trusting their instincts. there is a lot of really impressive things up for sale there, so i'm just afraid i'll get a case of ebay frenzy and end up pawning all my clothes and selling my soul:-) in light of the all this ebay talk i think Roses suggestion for our own joni auction is great. this could be a fun way to raise any necessary funds couldn't it? but who would oversee it and set up the rules/system? How about a Bob Muller sigend copy of the latest covers and contributions cd??? and JMDLers own cds with a signature would be interesting too!! even if it doesnt take that to save jm.com it would be a great way to raise funds for jm.com/jmdl.com in general, whattya say Ashara?? GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:46:55 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: RE: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com <> Well, my signature is not going to add any value to anything, that's for sure! :~) But I'll be glad to donate some stuff if the "auction" project is a go. I've accumulated a lot of things over the last couple of years, a lot of it things that I would never part with, but some things I could duplicate or that I have extra copies of, or would just be willing to pass along. And here's some cool stuff I just got yesterday, (which will remain in my private collection): an autographed photo of John Kelly in full Hejira garb, and a Turbulent Indigo matchbook, with some of the matches missing (maybe used by Joni to light those American Spirits?) Plus a brand new Joni tape which is also VERY cool! ;~) Bob NP: Yes, "Siberian Khatru" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:04:27 EST From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com In a message dated 12/12/00 11:01:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluor.com writes: << Well, my signature is not going to add any value to anything, that's for sure! :~) >> Oh Bob, don't be modest--surely it adds some value to those personal checks :-) Stephen--who only accepts cash from Bob :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:39:22 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #649 - --- BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: > Jim --- re the missing jm.com site/files. If this > is copyrighted material, > then notify them (whoever it is) that your lawyer is > preparing to sue their > ass unless you get access to it right away. This is > a national tragedy, > almost as bad as the probable Bush presidency. God > help us all. > > Bryan Is there anything we can do to help? Anyone we can nag, cajole, bribe or threaten? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:53:15 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: full moon and wolves - --- Garret wrote: >ideally i would have loved to do > psychology with anthropology. i > changed my mind so many times and finally said > "thats it". does social > anthropology make for good studying? my friends and > relatives thought i was > mad when i wanted to pursue this subject because a > teacher of mine told my > parents that there are few careet options in Ireland > for an anthropolgy > graduate. I read somewhere not too long ago that a good place for social anthropologists was to work in Human Resources departments of big biz - it sounds to me kind of like the dark side of social anthropology, but it's a living. When all is said and done, do what you love - if you go into something strictly for the job opps and the $, you'll never be happy, but if you go for what you love to do, the jobs opps will present themselves. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 03:48:00 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - December 12 1995: Joni appears on the Tonight Show - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:29:08 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: jm.com woes - --- At Home Accnt wrote: > Hi Les, > What do you think about moving jm.com to smoe. Is > this their type of thing or > is smoe just for lists? > > All the best, > Jim L'Hommedieu I don't know anything about websites, how they work and so on, but here's some questions: - - how much does it cost, on average, to run a website? Presumbly it depends on how big they are? How much would it cost per year to run this particular website? and some ideas (maybe naive, but what the heck?) - - What about corporate sponsorship? You may be plagued with a lot of ads, but it's easy enough to disregard them. What about Joni's recording company? (downside - I presume they'd want to exercise some kind of control over the content and there goes freedom of speech). What about internet CD companies? If, for example, CD-Now and others are willing to kick back some of the profits to the jmdl and jonimitchell.com, could they perhaps be persuaded to provide more, in return for more plugging of them as *the* source for all sounds Joni? - - Or how about a pledge drive similar to what PBS and others do? (Again, how much does it cost to run these things? I'm guessing Jim and Les provide their time at no cost (?) Is the cost of administering a trust fund of some kind to collect funds going to be too great to support the idea of people donating? And, of course, everyone's financial situation is different, so ability to pay would not influence whether or not someone was able to get access - it would have to be strictly voluntary. - - How about if those who provide the CDs/tapetrees added a surcharge of say $1 or $2 and that amount would go to the websites? Is that feasible? Finally, is there someone we could e-mail to register our extreme discontent with their arbitary decision to simply pull the plug on what is an amazing and award-winning website? Let me tell you, I'd really like to give these people a piece of my mind! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:37:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: JMDLnet Everyone, Just for holiday kicks I've created a new Sonicnet station: http://radio.sonicnet.com/mymusiclisten.asp?name=jmdlnet where all the JMDL members can partipate in tailoring the songs. You have to sign in to do this. Go to: radio.sonicnet.com Member name: jmdlnet Password: joni (all lower case) I began the station with the category "Contemporary Folk" and changed Joni's rating to 5 stars. Beyond that, it's up to Sonicnet and YOU! Play on! Lori in DC NP: Little Green Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:15:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: JMDLnet Anyone who wants/needs the "Welcome" email that contains instructions for using Sonicnet, email me privately and I'll be happy to pass it on. Lori in DC http://radio.sonicnet.com/mymusiclisten.asp?name=jmdlnet Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:22:56 -0600 From: "Eric Wilcox" Subject: JMDL auction for jm.com Well, conceivably we could hold the auction on Ebay-- that way the memorabilia could receive higher bids by virtue of the fact that it was more than just JMDL'ers bidding. Then, someone could put up a web-page-- perhaps on jmdl.com-- that had a list of all the items for bid. I think this is a great idea-- I'm willing to help however I can. eric - --- eric wilcox edwilcox@students.wisc.edu "It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious." -Oscar Wilde - --- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:41:50 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: RE: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com In a message dated Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:58:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluor.com writes: << <> Well, my signature is not going to add any value to anything, that's for sure! :~) Not even on one of your checks? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:41:53 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: RE: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com In a message dated Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:58:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluor.com writes: << <> Well, my signature is not going to add any value to anything, that's for sure! :~) Not even on one of your checks? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:57:35 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: RE: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com > Not even on one of your checks? If Bob's bank is anything like mine, the giant financial creature considers checks in much the same way as a Florida undervote ballot. As long as they can determine my "intention" in writing the thing, it matters little whether or not my John Hancock's on it or not! ;-) Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:55:51 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com <> Not true! I only pay with Jonistuff!! ;~) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:01:49 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: RE: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com Isn't the problem just finding a new home for jm.com? What's this all about selling stuff? To raise cash to find a new web server? There's plenty of web servers out there that don't cost very much. NP-The Slip, 6/2/96-Shy - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:24:11 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Frustration With Ebay...and saving jm.com Isn't the problem that the content of JM.com was residing on the server's computer, and is now missing in action? Mark Domyancich wrote: > Isn't the problem just finding a new home for jm.com? What's this all > about selling stuff? To raise cash to find a new web server? There's > plenty of web servers out there that don't cost very much. > > NP-The Slip, 6/2/96-Shy > > -- > Mark Domyancich > Harpua@revealed.net > tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:08:34 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: JMDL SITE IS BACK UP! That baby is back up and running! WOO HOO, sorry for shouting, I can't control myself :~) Text is smaller, but she's there. Jim tell us, what's happening? Now let's keep her up. I think fundraising is still a great idea to keep her resources strong. Rose in NJ This is the best ever ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:41:28 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL SITE IS BACK UP! In all my excitement, I referenced JMDL instead of JM.com. Sorry Jim and Les. - -Rose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:10:37 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Happy Birthday David! Best Wishes for a Wonderful Birthday David! - -Rose in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:20:37 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Happy Birthday David- Hope you have a very happy birthday and many many more. I hope you are warm up there in the frigid north tonight. Love Michael (Rasing my martini glass towards the north) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:49:28 -0800 From: "BRIAN SYMES" Subject: carly simon/jm.com Ben Taylor does back up vocals for his mom on "the bedroom tapes" her most current cd its an ok collection of confessional songs i think her strong suit is this kind of song writing that might make a "hit" or not. she will never rock in my opinion like Emmy Lou Harris does like on her spyboy cd. I remember seeing her first on a public tv show american dream machine on wgbh singing her first big hit and then in 1972 at a theatre in downtown chicago designed by Louis Sullivan, with JT in was great. A step closer to net sainthood for those who got jm.com back up thanks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:35:41 -0500 (EST) From: Al Date Subject: LJC -- Story of a Randaholic--LONG Is there a 12-step program for recovering Randaholics? Unfortunately, I let myself be totally consumed by Ayn Rand's philosophy Objectivism at an early age (15). I guess I was looking for answers in all the wrong places. As other have alluded to, this had a high cost. In my case, it led to personal feelings of inadequacy and alienation. For 4 years, I dutifully argued Objectivism's conclusions, built on all those airtight premises--and felt more and more the intellectually-isolated teenager. But all the while, I loved music passionately, from an even earlier age, and so I finally fell off the Objectivist Fence, and fell into indulging myself in a non-stop emotional orgy of "love," marijuana, guitar-playing and song-writing--and tried to forget philosophy entirely. I actually got decent at guitar, but my vocal range was limited. I found that it was more prudent to play songs like "Blackbird" and "Here Comes the Sun" publicly. My career peaked with a solo rendition of "Matty Groves" down at a local coffee shop in Burlingame CA (1972). When I discovered Joni Mitchell, i was dumb-struck! I realized that I did not have what it takes to be a successful song-writer in the "self-introspective lyric and voice category." This was a bitter pill to swallow, but I had seen plenty of burned out musicians who should've known when to quit-- and I did not want to go there. So, rather than torture myself with original song-writing, I fell more into playing JM songs--but I needed a vocalist, as her vocal range was too much for me. It was very hard to find anyone who could do JM! Meanwhile, economic necessity drove me into a job as a technician in Silicon Valley. I swore I would save up a few thousand bucks and quit after six months and just go traveling. That was almost 30 years ago and I am still a name on a door. But I eventually made the fortune that surely would've eluded me in music. And I found deep purpose in my wife and family. The pollution of early Silicon Valley made me an ecologist. Eventually, I felt that I had to reconcile my personal philosophy, which was like an overgrown skeletal closet. I discovered Prodigy (1986) and went wild with online discussions. This led to the internet where I became a regular on alt.philosophy.objectivism (1990) and met wonderful people who had fully recovered from Objectivism. A year later I was able to see Objectivism fairly objectively. I wrote my own refutation of Objectivism: I have no problem with the idea that reality exists, independent of any consciousness. I begin to diverge with Objectivists when they claim that all knowledge is objective, and that not only is everything know-able, but that they in particular know all the facts of a certain matter. (!) As if believing in one's mental prowess makes it so! Of course, human knowledge is often a very close approximation to reality, close enough to allow prediction, close enough to allow survival and prospering. But it is never exactly the same as reality. As another poster has stated, it is a *model* of reality. As it goes with models, it is never 100% complete: the quest for knowledge by humans is endless and ongoing. And there has never yet been a model of some aspect of physical reality which has not been challenged at some later date, and replaced by a new and improved one. So, facts may be facts, but whether we know them at any given point in time, is problematical. It would seem that humans can and do *approach* an objective understanding of reality, but can never quite get to it. None the less, I am willing to concede that this is "good enough;" that facts are close enough to being objectively known that we can ignore the dividing line between that and absolute certainty, at least for purposes of this discussion. VALUES AND VOLITION So, even if humans could objectively know facts, would this put facts on the same level as values? Not hardly. Values are inextricably linked to human volition, each shaping the other. As growing beings, our volition is shaped by three major forces over the course of our lives: nature, nurture, and self-direction, assuming that each previous force was "successful." If we are born severely retarded, no amount of nurturing will make us capable of complete self-direction. If our nurturing is incomplete or dysfunctional, it is unlikely that we will be able to achieve a state of rational self interest (ie victim's mentality). So, rationality is a PRODUCT of a successful birth and a successful upbringing, including the learning of language, with the inculcation of certain values, including "conscience." It is NOT an innate feature of man. (Some of the most interesting data regarding this is that of "feral children" who are raised by animals.) Rationality is a capability which we exercise in self-directness, assuming that everything else went "right" in our lives up until then. Rationality is akin to the blossoming of the flower of volition. *The ability to exercise volition is what defines us as fully human, and what gives meaning to our lives. * MAN'S PREMISES So what does this have to do with values? Values are the "stuff" that gives shape to volition in its early stages, and what volition produces in its later stages. Long before we are able to self-direct with any confidence, we are learning values from our parents/peers. Before that, we are picking up "innate" values like sexual preference. Rand calls these values "man's premises." She was mistaken to think that these premises are solely rationally chosen. The values which are rationally chosen are those which are done by the mature healthy adult (although many children are also capable of this to some degree). The basic values, like wanting to be loved, and not wanting to hurt (or to be hurt) by others, are already "in there," shaping volition in lieu of rationality. Society successfully transmits many basic values through the parents to the child, long before the child is able to make up her mind on such matters (assuming a functional family environment). So, facts are facts, but values are a complex combination of ideas which reside in the minds of each individual, and are unique to each individual, just as each person's volition is unique to that individual. Values may be so deeply held that they are not even known by intense self-introspection. Values represent a combination of physiological programming, cultural programming, and finally, on top of all the rest, the rationally self-chosen ideas, such as the idea that he who dies with the most toys wins. (8^) Therefore, 99.9% of values are entirely, ineluctably subjective, belonging to each individual. ONE OBJECTIVE VALUE The only truly objective value (according to my ethics) is that *people should not destroy or abrogate the volition of others.* This is transparently similar to many other commonly held and ancient credos, which may not mean much, but it is comforting that my conclusion would be easily accepted by most people, even if they didnt follow the underlying reasoning. However, unlike the simple libertarian dictum against the initiation of force, my ethics strongly implies that there is a parental obligation to children. - --Al Date - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #463 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?