From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #444 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com VideoTree sign-up: http://www.jmdl.com/trading Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, November 24 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 444 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Sign up for VideoTree #2 now: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- VLJC - Camus Connections ["Rob Ettridge" ] Songwriting [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Songwriting [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Songwriting (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] THE James Madison weighs in on The Fla. Supreme Court [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Songwriting [catman ] Thanksgiving Tale [Leslie Mixon ] Re: Songwriting [susan+rick ] Happy Birthday! ["Diane Evans" ] Re: Songwriting (md) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Joni on the cover! [RobSher50@aol.com] Re: Songwriting (md) ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Happy [Michael Paz ] Re: Songwriting (md) ["Stephen Epstein" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:19:32 -0000 From: "Rob Ettridge" Subject: VLJC - Camus Connections Joni's fellow Canadian kd lang also seems to be a Camus fan. The title of her brilliant new album, Invicible Summer, is lifted from a Camus quote. "In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." Rob _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:55:46 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Songwriting I have a question (and please don't flame me for asking): First, I cannot write a song/poem/lyric to save my life. So: Some of Joni's early songs were based on a certain pattern, of repeating the same theme. Both Sides Now: clouds, life, love (I looked at _______ from both sides now) Circle Game and Urge for Going follow a similar pattern. And these were all early in her career. The texts of her songs have become such works of extraordinary complexity and beauty that all patterns seem to be broken. Can anyone else today write a lyric like Joni? No... So when did you all first realize the growth/development of Joni's songwriting ability? And what struck you about her talent? For me it was the Blue album, and actually, "All I Want" because it picks up a theme and runs with it... and because it expressed a variety of emotions in such evocative words and yet said it not in some long tome but in the confines of a pop song. Just asking.... (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:51:30 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Songwriting In a message dated 11/23/00 7:53:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << So when did you all first realize the growth/development of Joni's songwriting ability? And what struck you about her talent? >> Well, I'm waiting for my chocolate torte to finish baking, so I may as well contribute. The Rev picks "Blue" for his first realization about Joni's songwriting ability. "Blue" is pretty darn close for me, but I started listening to Joni with my sister's copy of "For the Roses." At the time, I was just at the start of my teenaged "who am I" angst and "Lesson in Survival," (most specially "guru books, the Bible, only a reminder that you're just not good enough"), really turned on a light that lyrics could be more than the peppy "Last Train to Clarksville" stuff that was my usual diet. Not to show disrespect for those songs, but with FTR, it was my first real glimpse that songs could do more than provide a singalong feeling, the they could provide a road map for delving into yourself. Naturally, over time I've found other artists who also have provided that map for me, (and I've found that Leonard Cohen is vastly superior to Joni for this sort of stuff for me), but Joni remains the first and after "FTR" I knew that I could find a lot of solace within words. MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:33:21 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Songwriting (md) In a message dated 11/23/00 7:53:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << The texts of her songs have become such works of extraordinary complexity and beauty that all patterns seem to be broken. Can anyone else today write a lyric like Joni? No... >> For the last several weeks (months actually due to time constraints) I have been working on an album in my home studio of Joni covers. Some on the list have heard the first four songs. Doing this project has given me some insight into what Vince has said here. I recall when Susan Cowsil sang a Joni tune at the Pazfest in New Orleans and made on stage an interesting comment about how her (Joni's) songs sound easy to sing until you actually try to sing one. So to first address the melody part of writing the song. In some cases the vocal demands are difficult because her voice is so good and has such extraordinary abilities that to try to follow her exact line is to send your voice to its extremities. You get to points in the song where you can really see that there is this melody that is far more difficult to duplicate than the ear made it seem. As for the lyrics Joni in my humble opinion isnt writing lyrics, she is writing poetry. There is a big difference between the two. Lyrics are generally uniform in meter and rhyme. Poetry isnt. I know some will jump in with an anomolie here and there but by and large they are uniform and the meter and rhyme is repetitive. Not so with Joni. Poetry allows for sometimes completely unmatched word ensembles and almost anything goes. Take the song River which is one Im working on. I would record the guitar track and then go to see how the vocal worked with the playing and it wouldnt fit. So Id do it over again and the same thing happened. So i took Blue and listened to the song about ten time and in my listening separated the piano from the vocal and this pattern emerged. That I will try to explain. It is typical for song lines to have endings that rhyme in some way. I have found that Joni has a very unique way of doing this. For instance take the lines from the song: I wish I had a river so long I would teach my feet to fly I wish I had a river I could skate away on I made my baby cry You can see in this printed stanza that she has 'long' and 'on' and 'fly' and 'cry'. But if you listen to the song itself and the way she applies her melody and her vocal treatment you end up with what appears to be a completely different connection. The melody she sings actually connects the words "long and "fly" as if that is the complete stanza. But "long" and "fly" dont rhyme at all yet she lingers vocally on the word "fly" for a very long extended treatment so the listener is led to believe that she is trying to match two words that dont rhyme. (You need to listen carefully to this to see this example). Then when she does the third line in the stanza "I wish I had a river I could skate away on " she uses a melody line that for all intents and purposes completes the verse melody on the third line. So you are still hearing what appears to be the end of the verse because the melody matches even though the words dont. When she does the fourth line "I made my baby cry" it is with a completely different melody than the verse the words are supposed to be in. The melodic line of the fourth line is almost like what is called a coda or attachment (a musical hanging chad...Im kidding) .You can call this different or you can call this genius but I know of no other writer who does this. (I can surely be corrected by someone for sure but I dont know any and Ive been doing music all my life). This is what makes Jonis songwriting so special. I have found many such examples in her music. She is not bound by any rules. She uses whatever words she wants and does alot of things with her voice and melody line that can only come from pure inspiration. Somehow it fits or should I say she makes it fit. It may leave your ear and brain twisted but it absolutely works. This is why no one can imitate her. In short The Reverend is absolutely correct in his statement above. I hope I have provided some insight as to why or how. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:36:04 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: THE James Madison weighs in on The Fla. Supreme Court "The accumulation of all powers legislative, executive and judiciary in the same hands . . . may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny." - - James Madison, Federalist 47 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:48:44 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Songwriting > The texts of her songs have become such works of extraordinary > complexity and beauty that all patterns seem to be broken. Can anyone > else today write a lyric like Joni? No... > just because I am feeling devilish I will point out that you can't know if there is anyone out there who uses words the way Joni does because you can't possibly have heard everybody! Dar Williams reminds me very much of Joni in her use of wrods and music. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 09:56:24 -0800 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Thanksgiving Tale Thank you Joni - for all of the healing you have brought to our lives. I typed the following from an article that appeared in the San Jose Mercury News, May 18, 1998: The grinding car crash almost four years ago left one person dead and Scotts Valley artist Michael Cramer in a deep coma with serious brain injuries. "The doctors said he had only a 5% chance of recovery," recalls Cramer's mother Jody. But her son was a big Joni Mitchell fan - he'd collected all the singer's CDs and videos - so Jody brought a boom box into the hospital room and played Mitchell's music constantly. "We had to have some way to reach him," she explains. After two months, Michael slowly began to regain consciousness, a flickering eyelid here, a finger twitch there. Eventually, he was able to scribble a note - "I love Joni Mitchell" - but it took 22 more months of hospitalization before enough of his faculties had returned to allow him to return home. Now 26 and painting again, he'll be in his wheelchair in the front row Tuesday night at the San Jose Arena when Mitchell, Bob Dylan and Van Morrison perform. "He'd like to give her a painting in thanks," Jody says. "She might not realize the effect that music can have sometimes." Perhaps she does now. Leslie Mixon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:45:16 -0800 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: Songwriting Several years ago a Canadian Joni-tribute album was released (sorry, I can't remember the name) but I recall thinking how pedestrian all of the arrangements sounded. Shortly after that, I heard an interview with Joni where she said (something like) no one on the album understood that the chords, the melody and the lyrics of her songs are all separate and somewhat independent of each other. This concept perhaps helps to explain why I can sing her songs a capella and I can chord them just fine but when I try to put the two together, I get lost. (Or maybe I'm just an incompetent musician!) Ranger Rick > From: MDESTE1@aol.com > In a message dated 11/23/00 7:53:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, > revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: > > << The texts of her songs have become such works of extraordinary > complexity and beauty that all patterns seem to be broken. Can anyone > else today write a lyric like Joni? No... >> > I recall when Susan Cowsil sang a Joni tune at the Pazfest in New Orleans and > made on stage an interesting comment about how her (Joni's) songs sound easy > to sing until you actually try to sing one. > > So to first address the melody part of writing the song. In some cases the > vocal demands are difficult because her voice is so good and has such > extraordinary abilities that to try to follow her exact line is to send your > voice to its extremities. You get to points in the song where you can really > see that there is this melody that is far more difficult to duplicate than > the ear made it seem. > > As for the lyrics Joni in my humble opinion isnt writing lyrics, she is > writing poetry. There is a big difference between the two. Lyrics are > generally uniform in meter and rhyme. Poetry isnt. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:44:42 -0500 From: "Diane Evans" Subject: Happy Birthday! Emily, Lindsay, and Elaine: Happy F*cking Birthday! Love and drumsticks, Diane _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:13:36 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Songwriting (md) << So you are still hearing what appears to be the end of the verse because the melody matches even though the words dont. When she does the fourth line "I made my baby cry" it is with a completely different melody than the verse the words are supposed to be in. >> Great post, Marcel! Interesting to hear the take on Joni's writing from an actual writer of songs. And it's true that her songs are certainly WAY beyond the basic moon/June/spoon rhyme scheme. As an aside, the song "Moonlight In Vermont", a very pretty standard, has not a single rhyming line. So I think that's the point...Joni as a "composer", as opposed to a "songwriter ", doesn't comply with any 'prescribed standards'. And we're all the better for it! Now, if only she'd write some more! ;~) Bob NP: Rickie Lee Jones, "Up A Lazy River" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 22:03:56 EST From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Joni on the cover! Hi everyone! I looked at my December subscription to Los Angeles magazine yesterday, and who should be on the cover but a caricature of Joni sitting next to who else but...ET! It is the magazine's 50th anniversary and she graces the cover along with a host of other personalities, including jack Nicholson. I was very pleasantly surprised!!! Sherelle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:39:14 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Songwriting (md) Marcel, Did you notice that when jt did River at the TNT All Star Tribute Concert, he changed "so long" to "so wide"? So, suddenly, he created an almost-rhymn (wide/fly) exactly where you feel that Joni had suggested she was going to deliver one. What does this prove? I'm not sure except that you and JT noticed the same thing. This puts you in very good company indeed as a Joni scholar. :) No news to most of us I suppose..... [[I wish I had a river so long I would teach my feet to fly I wish I had a river I could skate away on I made my baby cry You can see in this printed stanza that she has 'long' and 'on' and 'fly' and 'cry'. But if you listen to the song itself and the way she applies her melody and her vocal treatment you end up with what appears to be a completely different connection. The melody she sings actually connects the words "long and "fly" as if that is the complete stanza.]] Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:00:57 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Happy Happy Thanksgiving to all and many blessings. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:10:06 -0500 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: Re: Songwriting (md) Jim, Marcel, and the Rev- This is a great thread, and I am impressed w/your musical ear w/respect to the whole rhyme/poetry /melody thing. It throws a whole new light on it for me. What a beautiful song- one of Ms. Mitchell's most lovely. My first Joni purchase was Ladies of the Canyon- I was 14. At the time, I was listening primarily to folk- Tim Hardin, Jerry Jeff Walker and Fred Neil. What struck me most about LOTC was the incredible unique sweetness of her voice and the poetry. What poetry. I still have the album, have not replaced it w/CD- it is scratchy but wonderful still! The emotion w/which she sings is still overwhelming. Next purchase was Blue. And what a transformation. Both in her and myself. I lost my virginity when I was 15- and Blue was the album d'jour. I think that's when I became a helpless romantic- to this day, my favourite love songs of all time are All I Want and A Case of You. Don't see how it can be expressed any better. I so wished I was able to put into words, my innermost feelings as Joni did. She seemed to capture the way I felt and thought about love and life. And I have agreed w/her ever since! Best regards, Stephen in Vancouver NP: Gary Burton- Whiz Kids PS Jim, how is the tape of the tribute concert coming along? So anxiously waiting! "Jim L'Hommedieu" on 11/23/2000 08:39:14 PM Please respond to "Jim L'Hommedieu" To: "Marcel&Soizic" , "JMDL" cc: (bcc: Stephen Epstein/Agmont) Subject: Re: Songwriting (md) Marcel, Did you notice that when jt did River at the TNT All Star Tribute Concert, he changed "so long" to "so wide"? So, suddenly, he created an almost-rhymn (wide/fly) exactly where you feel that Joni had suggested she was going to deliver one. What does this prove? I'm not sure except that you and JT noticed the same thing. This puts you in very good company indeed as a Joni scholar. :) No news to most of us I suppose..... [[I wish I had a river so long I would teach my feet to fly I wish I had a river I could skate away on I made my baby cry You can see in this printed stanza that she has 'long' and 'on' and 'fly' and 'cry'. But if you listen to the song itself and the way she applies her melody and her vocal treatment you end up with what appears to be a completely different connection. The melody she sings actually connects the words "long and "fly" as if that is the complete stanza.]] Jim ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #444 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?