From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #395 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, October 13 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 395 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- pin me ["Kate Bennett" ] music downloads [catman ] Re: Fwd: Joni Set Lists [Steven Barton ] Re: Blue ["Hell" ] Re: Pin Me Up & Benefits [MGVal@aol.com] Re: pin me [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Fwd: Joni Set Lists [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Blue [Steve Dulson ] RE: Conversation ["Susan" ] Re: Blue [Don Rowe ] RE: Pin Me Up & Benefits ["Wally Kairuz" ] MTV and Popizing Joni ["william" ] The Top Prize ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: MTV and Popizing Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: The Top Prize ["Eric Wilcox" ] Re: The Top Prize [Jerry Notaro ] Re: MTV and Popizing Joni [Don Rowe ] Joni's Visual Work ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: The Top Prize ~~ Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell? ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: The Top Prize [Seulbzzaj@aol.com] Re: The Top Prize [Scott Price ] Re: The Top Prize [Don Rowe ] Re: The Top Prize [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Fwd: Re: to be a pin on some map, my vicarious thrill [Susan McNamara] RE: Conversation [Scott Price ] Fwd: Re: "I went looking for a cause..." [Susan McNamara ] re: The Top Prize ["c Karma" ] RE: Conversation [Susan McNamara ] Fwd: The Top Prize [Susan McNamara ] Anthems ["Michael Paz" ] RE: Conversation [Scott Price ] the top prize ["Stephen Epstein" ] Re: Conversation ["Susan" ] Fred Simon -Green Mill ["Susan" ] Re: Blue ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: The Big Prize ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: The Tip Top Prize [B Merrill ] Re: Fwd: Re: to be a pin on some map, my vicarious thrill [pat holden ] Another Joni cover...maybe [Mark Domyancich ] Re: The Big Prize ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: The Top Prize [MGVal@aol.com] RE: The Tip Top Prize sjc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: The Top Prize [Ricw1217@aol.com] Apples and Cheeses and songs to play [Michael Paz Subject: pin me I was born a Jersey girl (Chatham, near Morristown) & now I live in Santa Barbara, CA where I have lived for a very long time. I plan to live here for the rest of my life! However, I would like to visit the spot on the Jersey shore where I used to spend my summers (Bay Head). Rose promised me some manicotti if I do. ******************************************** Kate Bennett featured this month at Taylor Guitars www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/ www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:16:14 +0100 From: catman Subject: music downloads looks like music downloads, those you pay for, are becoming a reality. You can download Carlys whol album, The Bedroom Tapes, for $14.98. I'd still want the real cd! - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:42:00 -0700 From: Steven Barton Subject: Re: Fwd: Joni Set Lists > Wasn't this a tape tree? #3 maybe? I also have copies of this, but > on dirty cassettes. sue Has there been any effort to master the JMDL cassette trees to CD-R, since there is currently such a shift in that direction? Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:12:31 +1300 From: "Hell" Subject: Re: Blue Kakki wrote: > I would have never guessed it was about Graham, either - and also think that > on the surface it seems more to fit James Taylor or Crosby. But thinking > about it, it does make sense to me now and also confirms a few intutions > I've had, but which I hesitate to say on the list because I'm weary of the > offlist flames I've been getting for daring to discuss Joni's lyrics as if > she is a real person. Let me get this straight? Someone is flaming you for discussing the lyrics of a Joni Mitchell song, on the Joni Mitchell Discussion List? Does that strike anyone else as being ridiculous!? Don't take any notice Kakki - personally I always love your posts! And I love the discussion on this song - it's one of my favourites, and although it's always been said that it was about David Blue, the lyrics always seemed to me, to be too intimate and personal. I think Graham Nash fits the bill perfectly. Of course the only one who REALLY knows is Joni, and she doesn't appear to be here - unless of course she's the one doing the flaming! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 06:45:40 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Pin Me Up & Benefits In a message dated 10/11/00 10:33:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, leslie@torchsongs.com writes: << I believe Joni has also supported the animal rights movement - wasn't her "Wolves" artwork used for a poster several years back? >> Yep. This is absolutely right. At the first JoniFest, old time list member Bill Dollinger brought copies of this poster for giveaways. The artwork was from her Dog Eat Taylor's Ham album and had the quote: "coyotes respect humans, why can't humans respect coyotes" or "coyotes will eat your Taylor's ham, so hurry up and eat it first." I can't remember which. MG - wondering if it's too early for breakfast..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:39:58 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: pin me In a message dated 10/12/00 3:18:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: << However, I would like to visit the spot on the Jersey shore where I used to spend my summers (Bay Head). Rose promised me some manicotti if I do. ******************************************** >> Absolutely Kate, you got it... just let me know when you're gonna visit and have some "real" Italian home cooking. My grandma Assunta taught me how. (Di Napoli) Rosalita in NJ NP in her head: Mandy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:38:32 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Joni Set Lists <> Not formally, Steven, but I'm about 90% of the way there... Bob NP: Patti Smith, "death singing" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:51:48 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Blue >>I also hear it in way she sings "I Love You" in Blue. >Makes this song much more poignant to me now, hearing it is about Graham. Kakki, unless I hear it from the mouth of Siquomb herself, you (or Kate!) will never convince me that the song was not inspired directly by her relationship with David Blue. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.... :) - -- ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:31:12 -0500 From: "Susan" Subject: RE: Conversation > Wally wrote:yeah, where did i read that conversation IS about stephen stills? why > would stephen stills constantly bring joni mitchell apples and cheeses, though? > I have seen several posts in the past that have mentioned this. I should add that since I bought LOTC, soon after I bought Blue, I have always felt it was about Stephen Stills. The people I knew back then that were Joni fans also seemed to have information that "Conversation" was about Judy Collins/Stephen Stills. You wonder how these things get started and stick! I also think the line you refer to (apples & cheeses) may not need to be taken so literal, it is a convenient rhyme. Also I would guess Joni may have included a a bottle of German wine (with the apples & cheeses) as well, making all the more sense, but unable to work it into this piece! Peace Susan P.S. Hi Jody, more on the Fred Simon Show later! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:46:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Blue - --- Hell wrote: > Kakki wrote: > > > I would have never guessed it was about Graham, > either - and also think > that > > on the surface it seems more to fit James Taylor > or Crosby. But thinking > > about it, it does make sense to me now and also > confirms a few intutions > > I've had, but which I hesitate to say on the list > because I'm weary of the > > offlist flames I've been getting for daring to > discuss Joni's lyrics as if > > she is a real person. I'm going to jump in on this one. Whoever's flaming Kakki ... KNOCK IT OFF! Flame me instead, if you must, but do so at your peril, I assure you I can give out twice as hot as I get. On the issue of "Blue", I'll take the cheap writer's compromise. Since the song seems to fit any number of Joni's "d'affairs du coeur", I think it quite possible - -- and likely even -- that the song is, in fact, a whole greater than the sum of it's parts. And therein lies it's power ... that Joni's drawn from her most powerful feelings from a number of affairs, and woven them together into this timeless fabric. Now that may not be as satisfying as saying, "Blue's about _________", but I agree with Kakki that Joni's a flesh and blood human being. A god awfully creative and brilliant human being -- and as such -- certainly capable of synthesizing her emotions from different times, places and people, into an incredible organic single song. Don Rowe ===== My debut CD "Closer Now" is now available at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:52:21 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Pin Me Up & Benefits mary grace!!!!!! you're making me so hungry! now it's imperative that i try some of that sinful meat you've been so shamelessly advertising! expect me next saturday for brunch. wallyk, a ham man >"coyotes will eat your Taylor's ham, so hurry up and eat it > first." I can't remember which. > > MG - wondering if it's too early for breakfast..... > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 00:17:32 +0700 From: "william" Subject: MTV and Popizing Joni I don't know what the current fare of pop is elsewhere, but here in Indonesia ........... aaaaaaaaaargh we get a selection of what's happening videolly in the West. I hope it's the worst of a bad bunch. Maybe I'm getting older (of course I am, isn't everyone?). Today I watched with particular disbelief the eMTVness of the music. Even Madonna's Music left me in dismay of how shallow/forgettable it all was. Sorry, I missed the self parody/piss-take as was explained to me. But then Madonna speaks highly of my career. Joni ain't no video queen either. The bland regurgitations of old songs i.e. Five doing We Will Rock You floored me. Maybe I need another holiday, to relax, let things slide/be. I picked up my guitar as an antidote and determined to play a difficult Joni song I'd never played before. Otis and Marlena was reduced to E F# B and C#7. It's possible and sounded jolly acceptable too. I had no idea it could be so simple and in standard tuning. I started thinking of pop-py accompaniments etc. A cover version. I played it until the little green taxi arrived. I don't know if it would be a good thing to "popize" Joni, but a cover here and there wouldn't go wrong, or would it? Are any of Joni's songs better than We Will Rock You? Current flavours doing what, I think might be a tall order to the imagination. A handful of artists doing a handful of Joni songs. Who doing What? There ain't a lot there alas. Willy the Shake N about to P - Otis & Marlena - come for fun and sun PS - What does "while muslims stick up Washington" mean? I like to have a fair idea of what I'm singing about. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:49:20 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: The Top Prize Clearly the race for 'best singer-songwriter' is between Bobby and Joni. Did Dylan ever write ANYTHING as good as the "Last Time I Saw Richard"? I don't think so. I know Bob was more Influential by far. I also think that sometimes the Student (Joni) surpasses the skills of the Teacher (Bob Dylan). For me, Joni is THE best. Others? All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:58:42 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: MTV and Popizing Joni <> There are some GREAT Pop covers of Joni's music...Jason Falkner's "Both Sides Now" is irresistably good, as is Pinhead Gunpowder's "Big Yellow Taxi". Lots of others, just depends on how one defines the parameters of "Pop"... <>> Yes, all of them...except Dancin' Clown! ;~) Bob NP: Smoking Popes, "On The Shoulder" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:01:33 -0500 From: "Eric Wilcox" Subject: RE: The Top Prize Well, I think Joni may have the upper hand because she's got a singing voice. Some of Dylan's songs are genius-- but I always hated his voice. Joni writes amazing songs and has a darn good voice to go along with it. I'd have to concur with Jim's declaration: Joni is THE best. ;) eric - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Jim L'Hommedieu Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 12:49 PM To: _JMDL - June 98 Subject: The Top Prize Clearly the race for 'best singer-songwriter' is between Bobby and Joni. Did Dylan ever write ANYTHING as good as the "Last Time I Saw Richard"? I don't think so. I know Bob was more Influential by far. I also think that sometimes the Student (Joni) surpasses the skills of the Teacher (Bob Dylan). For me, Joni is THE best. Others? All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:09:15 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: The Top Prize Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Clearly the race for 'best singer-songwriter' is between Bobby and Joni. > Did Dylan ever write ANYTHING as good as the "Last Time I Saw Richard"? I > don't think so. I know Bob was more Influential by far. I also think that > sometimes the Student (Joni) surpasses the skills of the Teacher (Bob > Dylan). For me, Joni is THE best. Others? Not quite a fair comparison. Both are the best at what they do. The Last Time I Saw Richard is as intimate and emotional and involving as I Shall Be Released is universal. Both are brilliant and works of unquestioned genuis. Jerry Charlie Mingus - Goodbye Pork Pie Hat (so heartbreaking beautiful) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:09:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: MTV and Popizing Joni > Yes, all of them...except Dancin' Clown! ;~) > Sorry, but that's more correctly: "Yes, all of them ... *especially* Dancin' Clown!" ;-) Don Rowe ===== My debut CD "Closer Now" is now available at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:10:03 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Joni's Visual Work The Mendel Art Gallery in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan is still selling the poster and catalog of Joni's 'voices' show, eh? You can see the poster at http://www.mendel.saskatoon.sk.ca/shop/ You can buy on line or call them. When I called today, they had the poster in stock ($17 American including shipping - a BARGAIN!!) but the catalog is on re-order. They expect more catalogs in 4-6 weeks. They ship once per week. Mendel Art Gallery's phone: (306) 975-7616 All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu PS- I'm thinking of buying a catalog for my birthday- would someone please describe the catalog? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:17:09 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: The Top Prize ~~ Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell? Joni has shown a real facility on piano too where Bob hasn't. (For The Roses is a MUST for every Joni collection!!) And her ability with melody is superior- I'll leave that proof for everyone else. And Joni's guitar playing is just WAY more beautiful especially in the open-tuned Martin phase. (Again- For The Roses is a MUST for every Joni collection. And it sounds so beautiful on vinyl that I've never bought a copy on CD.) And she actually produces herself (mostly) and gets lots of colors that way. Bobby hires great producers- no doubt- but it's not the same thing is it? I'm open for discussion but man, in my mind, the contest is not even close! Anyway...... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:20:34 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: The Top Prize Jerry- Yah, the Universal aspect of "I Shall Be Released" is undeniable! Joni hasn't really made something suitable to close JoniFests with, for example. You know- the moment where the theatrical intuition tells you that everyone should get up and sing one song together- an anthem with many verses that brings everyone together. "I Shall Be Released" is certainly that. Great point. Lama - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Notaro" To: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Cc: "_JMDL - June 98" Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 2:08 PM Subject: Re: The Top Prize > > > Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > > > Clearly the race for 'best singer-songwriter' is between Bobby and Joni. > > Did Dylan ever write ANYTHING as good as the "Last Time I Saw Richard"? I > > don't think so. I know Bob was more Influential by far. I also think that > > sometimes the Student (Joni) surpasses the skills of the Teacher (Bob > > Dylan). For me, Joni is THE best. Others? > > Not quite a fair comparison. Both are the best at what they do. The Last Time > I Saw Richard is as intimate and emotional and involving as I Shall Be > Released is universal. Both are brilliant and works of unquestioned genuis. > > Jerry > > Charlie Mingus - Goodbye Pork Pie Hat (so heartbreaking beautiful) > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:33:59 EDT From: Seulbzzaj@aol.com Subject: Re: The Top Prize Lama writes: Yah, the Universal aspect of "I Shall Be Released" is undeniable! Joni hasn't really made something suitable to close JoniFests with, for example.You know- the moment where the theatrical intuition tells you that everyone should get up and sing one song together- an anthem with many verses that brings everyone together. How about The Circle Game? That should be suitable for a singalong to close a JoniFest. Overall, I don't see the point saying Dylan is better than Joni or vice-versa. They are clearly both great artists, and have made different contributions to music. - Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:45:44 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: The Top Prize At 02:20 PM 10/12/00 -0400, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: >Joni hasn't really made something suitable to close JoniFests with, >for example. You know- the moment where the theatrical intuition >tells you that everyone should get up and sing one song together- >an anthem with many verses that brings everyone together. For me, "Woodstock" fills this bill. Joni has used it many times to close out various live performances. It's uplifting yet is usually done in a haunting tone. She did spice it up with a band a few times but the versions I like best are solo Joni and guitar or Joni and piano. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:49:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: The Top Prize To quote from "Barfly" -- "Ah, the eternal question. The eternal answer ... I dunno!" Okay, so with the exception of CG, Joni's not exactly your sing-along songwriter. Maybe a cool cover of "Big Rock Candy Mountain" in DADGAD, with some polite drumming, Klein Jaco impersonation, pedal steel and muted trumpet might get us there ... I'm being silly. Here's why Joni gets my vote over Dylan, as I'm being forced into a comparison. With the Dylan catalog, there's a lot of 'filler' you have to put up with catch the gems. In Joni's catalog, there's a density of gems you have to get through to even spot the 'filler.' Don Rowe ===== My debut CD "Closer Now" is now available at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:07:29 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: The Top Prize In a message dated 10/12/00 2:59:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: << Here's why Joni gets my vote over Dylan, as I'm being forced into a comparison. With the Dylan catalog, there's a lot of 'filler' you have to put up with catch the gems. In Joni's catalog, there's a density of gems you have to get through to even spot the 'filler.' Don Rowe >> Gee, what a surprise. Members of the Joni Mitchell Discussion List Declaring they like Joni's music better than Dylan's and anyone else's. Talk about preaching to the choir. What's the point? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:26:53 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: to be a pin on some map, my vicarious thrill The bumper sticker around town says "ITHACA IS GORGES" and it certainly is!! We are not at peak yet...probably sometime next week. sue At 8:33 PM -0400 10/11/00, Heather wrote: >Ithaca is a beautiful place! It must be psychedelic right now with >the leaves changing! > >Heather (from Binghamton) ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:42:09 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: RE: Conversation At 10:31 AM 10/12/00 -0500, Susan wrote: >I also think the line you refer to (apples & cheeses) may not >need to be taken so literal, it is a convenient rhyme. In an early (before the studio album was released) live performance of this song Joni sang "grapes and cheeses." I think "apples" with two syllables instead of one ("grapes") fits the musical structure better and was, as you wrote, more "convenient." Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:35:30 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Fwd: Re: "I went looking for a cause..." I wonder if our old friend Bill Dollinger is still lurking out there? Joni did a beautiful photo shoot during Dog Eat Dog days for FRIENDS OF ANIMALS. Joni in her best/worst perm hugging wolves. Bill sent me a great glossy of that promotion. You can see a picture here: http://www.friendsofanimals.org/pred/wolf/joni.htm Hey Bill -- delurk!! :-) Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:17:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: The Top Prize - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > Gee, what a surprise. Members of the Joni Mitchell > Discussion List Declaring > they like Joni's music better than Dylan's and > anyone else's. > Talk about preaching to the choir. > What's the point? > The point is this. Reciprocation ... we of the Joni Mitchell clergy find the choir's singing particularly appealing. In the hopes that we might return the favor, and by extension, the exhuberant joy of their joined voices, we decided to prepare a sermon specifically for them. We pondered in council for hours, in and out of nights, and almost over a year, searching for a subject of clarity and illumination. But it was for nought. That is, until one evening, driving past the Choirmaster's house, what to our wondering ears should arrive but a 47-part masacree of "Rainy Day Women #12 & 35". At first, it all seemed a bit tipsy, honestly -- but nonetheless profound -- in an 'in vino veritas' sort of a way. It was settled, we would preach comparisons betwixt Mr. Dylan and Ms. Mitchell. Hope this clears up the issue for you. Rev. Rowe ===== My debut CD "Closer Now" is now available at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:42:21 GMT From: "c Karma" Subject: re: The Top Prize As far as closing JoniFests, "Shadows and Light" is as good an anthem as any, especially if given the spiritual treatment. Got gospel? CC "Like the millions of lost and lonely ones, I called out to be released." -- JM _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:56:04 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: Conversation Ok, archive experts. What is the date of the performance on the tape trees where she sings Conversation with the rudimentary 4th verse? I'm assuming at this performance the song was possibly days old. Is that in 1967? Had she met Stills and Collins yet? Explain it to me like I'm a three-year old! I was under the impression that she had not officially met Stills until she went out to California with Crosby (i know that she knew Collins earlier). It's not that I disagree, I'm just wondering if the dates mesh. sue--a chronic believer in the fact that even Joni doesn't know who these songs are about!! :-) At 12:42 PM -0700 10/12/00, Scott Price wrote: >At 10:31 AM 10/12/00 -0500, Susan wrote: > >I also think the line you refer to (apples & cheeses) may not > >need to be taken so literal, it is a convenient rhyme. > > >In an early (before the studio album was released) live performance of this >song Joni sang "grapes and cheeses." I think "apples" with two syllables >instead of one ("grapes") fits the musical structure better and was, as you >wrote, more "convenient." > >Scott ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:00:58 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Fwd: The Top Prize Whoa, Nellie!! This is like Solomon and the baby. You can have it Jim, I don't want my Bobby sliced in two. He wrote "If You See Her Say Hello" which could be a contender with "The Last Time I Saw Richard" which I don't even think is Joni's best song (a great one but it didn't make it on my 15 list). I gratefully decline this sticky-wicket!! luvya, sue >Clearly the race for 'best singer-songwriter' is between Bobby and Joni. >Did Dylan ever write ANYTHING as good as the "Last Time I Saw Richard"? I >don't think so. I know Bob was more Influential by far. I also think that >sometimes the Student (Joni) surpasses the skills of the Teacher (Bob >Dylan). For me, Joni is THE best. Others? >All the best, >Jim L'Hommedieu ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:20:53 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Anthems Lama wrote: "Yah, the Universal aspect of "I Shall Be Released" is undeniable! Joni hasn't really made something suitable to close JoniFests with, for example. You know- the moment where the theatrical intuition tells you that everyone should get up and sing one song together- an anthem with many verses that brings everyone together. "I Shall Be Released" is certainly that. Great point." Jim- I shall Be Released has it's place as an anthem for us all, but I find that Circle Game has the same qualities, as does the anthem for the greatest generation of all time, Woodstock. Just because more lemmings bought the Dylan anthem, doesn't make it mo betta. Paz NP-Forget Me Not-John Waite Demo Tape ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:26:03 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: RE: Conversation At 05:56 PM 10/12/00 -0400, Susan McNamara wrote: > What is the date of the performance on the tape >trees where she sings Conversation with the rudimentary 4th verse? >I'm assuming at this performance the song was possibly days old. Is >that in 1967? Hi Sue, The performance I was referring to was the "Club 47" or "By the Banks of the River Charles" recording which is listed as Cambridge, Mass., January 4, 1968. I don't know how this relates to the timetable you were asking about with Stephen Stills and Judy Collins...perhaps someone else can give the chronology. This has been posted here before, but for newbies, the verse that never made it to the studio version of the song, "Conversation," went like this: - --------------------------------------------------------------- He's acted down all evening Maybe it's over now Maybe she's finally leaving I'd like to show her now But friends are friends forever So hard to change their role Laugh with him, cry together A friend feels so old But you keep your feelings deep inside You talk of them and think of pride Now is the wrong time But maybe if a dozen days are warm and right You'll hear him say "I've wanted you baby for such a long time" - --------------------------------------------------------------- Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:36:54 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: the top prize Not meaning to sound pretentious, but I feel this type of comparison- Dylan/Mitchell, Rickie Lee Jones/Mitchell- are futile. Though it creates interesting discussion, in my opinion one is not better than the other. When asked what my favourite movie of all time is, I don't have an answer- so many good ones! Favourite painter- Picasso, Van Gogh, Rauschenberg...... I don't know, all brilliant. Favourite singer/songwriter- Joni, Fred Neil, Laura Nyro...... too many choices of artistic genius- in all of these categories. It is such a personal feeling- the moment, the way something "hits"you, affects one. And it's forever changing- by one's mood, time of day, day of the week, the weather... And when queries like this are proposed to such a uniquely gifted, intelligent, and artistic group of individuals- we'll never agree!! But, it does make for an interesting read! Regards all, Stephen in Vancouver NP: Chucho Valdes- Live @ the Village Vanguard. P.S. To Bob M- you were listening the other day to Ron Sexsmith. I know that you too, are a big Elvis Costello fan. Elvis has mentioned numerous times in print, that he thinks Ron is one of the best songwriters in the world! High praise, indeed! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:51:46 -0500 From: "Susan" Subject: Re: Conversation Susan McNamara wrote: > Ok, archive experts. What is the date of the performance on the tape > trees where she sings Conversation with the rudimentary 4th verse? > > sue--a chronic believer in the fact that even Joni doesn't know who > these songs are about!! :-) Susan, I don't know if my mind is able to recreate that whole period chronologically anymore. But you certainly make a good case, that window of opportunity is smaller than I realized. BUT I shant give up my stand that it is about Judy & Stephen. LOTC came out in 1970. All parties definitely knew each other by 68. They all had either recorded on one or the others albums or had covered each other on an album. But did they know each other in 67- -AHA! How long before that year (68) did they know each other ... And how intimately? Stay tuned I know some will climb through that window, but I have nothing in the way of proof. Although I fully intend on going on believing that Conversation is about Stills & Collins. Finally Susan, your last comment, I will ponder further, and dare I say you may have a point, I think sometimes it may be the mood or the brooding that inspires lyrics and any one song may not be traced to an absolute one person. But more times than not I think with Joni it does. Peace Susan Guzzi P. S. Scott can you help? > > > At 12:42 PM -0700 10/12/00, Scott Price wrote: > >At 10:31 AM 10/12/00 -0500, Susan wrote: > > >I also think the line you refer to (apples & cheeses) may not > > >need to be taken so literal, it is a convenient rhyme. > > > > > >In an early (before the studio album was released) live performance of this > >song Joni sang "grapes and cheeses." I think "apples" with two syllables > >instead of one ("grapes") fits the musical structure better and was, as you > >wrote, more "convenient." > > > >Scott > > ____________________ > /____________________\ > ||-------------------|| > || Sue McNamara || > || sem8@cornell.edu || > ||___________________|| > || O etch-a-sketch O || > \___________________/ > > > > "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:15:59 -0500 From: "Susan" Subject: Fred Simon -Green Mill First of all I met in person my first JMDLer last night! It was great to meet you Jody! Also former JMDLer Doug . Thanks to both of you for making me feel so comfortable and welcome. But of course being the rookie, Jody dropped the bomb that I would have to post on the event. So here goes ... Chicago's Green Mill lounge, featuring The Fred Simon Trio" As I walked through the doors and glided to my seat I heard the first notes as the trio had just begun their first set. I suddenly recalled a review of a Joni show at Ravinia, Il back in 74 I believe. "Her voice fluttered like a butterfly across the crowd" I am paraphrasing a bit. This was much the same, except here in this lounge, I would say like Fred's piano was more like fireflies dancing across the room and through the circles of smoke. Fred's wife Sarah played the drums so effortlessly, but with so much mood. While Kelly Sill was innovative and intimate on his bass. The whole night could have been a scene in a movie, as the old speakeasy seem to come to life with the tones set by Fred and his trio. While Jody, Duane and I got to know each other ... neither one bothered to introduce me to Fred! I just realized that. "Hi Fred, I lent you a pen, remember?" Anyway, I am not sure if the music floated or if it had us floating on a Fred Simon Trio Kinda High. Fred's new cd is "Dream House." Any opportunities to catch their shows here in the Chicagoland area should not be missed. Thank you Fred for a wonderful evening! And thanks again Jody & Duane -you are both sweeties! Peace Susan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:20:37 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Blue > On the issue of "Blue", I'll take the cheap writer's > compromise. Since the song seems to fit any number of > Joni's "d'affairs du coeur", I think it quite possible > -- and likely even -- that the song is, in fact, a > whole greater than the sum of it's parts. And therein > lies it's power ... that Joni's drawn from her most > powerful feelings from a number of affairs, and woven > them together into this timeless fabric. Songs are not necessarily written about one person. Quite often they are made up of a myriad of emotions. And writing a song is not as simple a process as it would seem. I was reading an interview with Joni from this month's issue of Inside Connection and she said quite often a long time may go by before she actually writes about a certain experience, relationship etc...so you can't chronologically match up affairs and songs necessarily. And as a songwriter, when I write a new song, it becomes this dynamic thing that grows and evolves and I may develop different ideas about what inspired the song even though I'm the one who wrote it. There is always that element of songwriting that lends itself to mystery, working in this medium of music and words that seems to transcend itself. Victor NP: John Coltrane -Live at the Village Vanguard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:26:33 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: The Big Prize Paul, You are in flame mode here. C'mon. Would you have us return to our astrology, geography and Madonna threads _in place of_ discussing Joni's strengths as a singer-songwriter? I hope there's room for both. What's the harm of re-affirming our faith? Of testifying once again? Jews and Christians go to temple/church to affirm their belief on a _regular_ basis, right? Be a joiner for once- I won't tell anyone- what's your opinion on this admittedly silly question? > Gee, what a surprise. Members of the Joni Mitchell Discussion List Declaring > they like Joni's music better than Dylan's and anyone else's. > Talk about preaching to the choir. > What's the point? > Paul I All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:24:32 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: The Tip Top Prize When you consider her quantity, quality, variety, and consistency, Joni is, by far, the greatest singer-songwriter of her generation, our era. (And of all her virtues, the most consistent is her lyrical facility, imagination, poignancy. Right?) While Dylan may outdo her as to quantity, too many of Dylan's arrangements and melodies and chord progressions are simply perfunctory. Too many droning ballads. He doesn't have her range or imagination. No contest. (For that matter, it's not obvious to me that Dylan is #2. Dylan himself said once that Smokey Robinson was the greatest, and I'd certainly rather listen to Smokey's tunes than Bob's.) Also, from my particular standpoint, another big feather in Joni's cap, along with the case that she is the greatest singer-songwriter of our era, is the accomplishment of having created the greatest "concept album" of our time: Hissing of Summer Lawns. There's nothing that touches it in terms of musical variation, thematic complexity, and coherence. (Nothing that I've ever come upon.) It's really a marvel... I submit that, 30 years from now, this will be come to be recognized as one of the great creations of our generation-- just as we now look back in reverence to Renoir's Rules of the Game, Armstrong's Hot Fives, Picasso's blue period, etc. (I kid you not.) Let's all get together in 30 years, and see how it's doing, OK? If I'm wrong, you can dance on my grave. Bruce M. PS NP: My 7 & 11 year old sons are listening to EMINEM in the kitchen! The "clean" version. Stone the crows and Gimme shelter!! "What have I done to deserve this??" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:53:31 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: to be a pin on some map, my vicarious thrill Susan McNamara wrote: > The bumper sticker around town says "ITHACA IS GORGES" and it > certainly is!! We are not at peak yet...probably sometime next week. > sue > > At 8:33 PM -0400 10/11/00, Heather wrote: > >Ithaca is a beautiful place! It must be psychedelic right now with > >the leaves changing! > > > >Heather (from Binghamton) hey sue...we've got some gorgeous leaves happening up here too...the land of the maple leaf and all that....the progression of colours is actually a bit slower this year, which I love love love!!! I live near the escarpment and the Bruce Trail system so its fantastic..only a short drive to miles and miles of hiking. looking forward to my hiking partner joining me soon ;) Mags.... np: Ben Harper....Mimi's choice ;) > > > ____________________ > /____________________\ > ||-------------------|| > || Sue McNamara || > || sem8@cornell.edu || > ||___________________|| > || O etch-a-sketch O || > \___________________/ > > > > "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:07:05 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: The Big Prize In a message dated 10/12/00 7:27:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jlamadoo@one.net writes: << Paul, You are in flame mode here. C'mon. Would you have us return to our astrology, geography and Madonna threads _in place of_ discussing Joni's strengths as a singer-songwriter? I hope there's room for both. What's the harm of re-affirming our faith? Of testifying once again? Jews and Christians go to temple/church to affirm their belief on a _regular_ basis, right? Be a joiner for once- I won't tell anyone- what's your opinion on this admittedly silly question? >> I think it is like comparing apples and cheeses. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:15:29 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: The Tip Top Prize > Also, from my particular standpoint, another big feather in Joni's cap, > along with the case that she is the greatest singer-songwriter of our era, > is the accomplishment of having created the greatest "concept album" of our > time: Hissing of Summer Lawns. There's nothing that touches it in terms of > musical variation, thematic complexity, and coherence. (Nothing that I've > ever come upon.) There's nothing that touches Jethro Tull "Thick as a Brick" in my opinion. But as soon as I label anything as the "greatest" something else immediately comes to mind. I can't play this game. There's just too much wonderful, breathtakingly beautiful music out there. I agree though, that in 30 years it will all seem even more beautiful. That's one reason I've made it a point these past couple of years to go see people like Joni, James Taylor, CSNY, Neil Young, etc...while I still can. Victor NP: Big Fish Ensemble State Bird of Big Fish Ensemble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:26:28 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Another Joni cover...maybe Well this just may be a cover that I would actually enjoy. According to the Pharmer's Almanac Vol. 3 (which is a book full of various Phish factoids, setlists, tour stories, covers, etc) Phish covered Help Me on April 10, 1993 along with Sugar Blue (I don't know who he/she is) who sang and played the harmonica. Now I was told a couple of years ago that Help Me is also the title of an old blues song, but until I hear it I still think it's Joni's song, although it's really unlikely. If I get my hands on it, I'll send Bob a copy of it. NP-The Slip, 6/7/96-Invisible Man - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:35:04 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: The Big Prize Ahh, a clever turn of a phrase! There is much more behind it though, isn't there? What's the album version of your post? There's no reason to distill it to a sound bite! Be verbose, man! Is Dylan the apple or the cheese? I contend that Bobby is the apple and Joni is the cheese. Cheese often improves with age. While apples, well, they forget to write melodies and tour endlessly, barking mono-syllables over power chords don't they? :) I love 'em both though. Now, where's the long version, Paul? "C'mon now, you've got ta try." > I think it is like comparing apples and cheeses. > > Paul I > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:38:49 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: The Top Prize In a message dated 10/12/00 11:23:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, edwilcox@students.wisc.edu writes: << Joni writes amazing songs and has a darn good voice to go along with it. I'd have to concur with Jim's declaration: Joni is THE best. ;) >> But you know what? Since Rose mentioned the Leonard Cohen website, I've been re-listening to his works and he really stands out beyond Joni. She may have moved into more complicated and sophisticated works, but she doesn't always come that close to Cohen's writings in many ways. At least that's what I'm thinking today, right now, here in Davis, CA. MG np: the ducks quacking from the backyard of Davis' ONLY home daycare and petting zoo. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:04:08 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: The Tip Top Prize sjc i can't help but make this confession yet once again: the first time i heard a dylan song was during the last jonifest, barely a few weeks ago!!!! or was it neil young all the time? the great authority on dylan is marian, so i should talk to her and get really started on dylan. but his catalogue is SO huge, i just don't have the energy or the inclination for another joni mitchell in my life. i devoted twenty years to the exclusive study of joni mitchell. when i think about dylan, i feel like an 80-year-old engineer who is told all of a sudden that he needs to get a degree in medicine too. call it narrow-mindedness, but with joni, wagner, strauss, rickie, and the rest of the artists that wrote and/or performed the music on my more than three thousand cd's i have quite enough yet to discover and study. i believe that on the verge of my forties, i'm already too late to change majors. wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:16:18 EDT From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: Re: The Top Prize In a message dated 10/12/00 9:48:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: << I've been re-listening to his works and he really stands out beyond Joni. She may have moved into more complicated and sophisticated works, but she doesn't always come that close to Cohen's writings in many ways. >> i gotta agree with mg here. musically there is probably no comparison, and joni is a true singer, where leonard is more of a stylist, but lyrically? leonard cohen is the songwriter who brought poetry to the pop song! his debut album, a masterpiece by anyone's estimation, "songs" opened the door with a wall banging swing that dylan had only unlocked. joni followed, and so did paul simon, and all the rest. but it was leonard cohen who elevated lyrics to poetry...real poetry...the kind that stands by itself, with or without accompaniment. listen to me! like i know what i am talking about! there should be a "in my humble opinion" in there somewhere... but for any of you unfamiliar with "songs"...give a listen. or, to prove my point, give a read. "he was just some joseph looking for a manger..." but overall, joni is still the best of her generation. a true mapmaker of the human heart. no doubt about it. peace, ric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:53:32 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Apples and Cheeses and songs to play Scott wrote: >"In an early (before the studio album was released) live performance of this >song Joni sang "grapes and cheeses." I think "apples" with two syllables >instead of one ("grapes") fits the musical structure better and was, as you >wrote, more "convenient."" Scott- I remember apples and cheeses being very in with the hippie chicks back in the day. Along with tea and certain wines. I know Joni did alot of good for the marketing of a certain German white rhine wine. I consumed a few bottles or so and I do recall being served apples and cheeses whilst I played songs of joy and peace and some Blue Nun to swash it all down with. which brings me to, I saw (seemingly) the film of the Year tonight Almost Famous and I too loved it very much. There was SO much there yet I felt it was lacking too and I would have liked to see other bands besides Stillwater (altho liked them plenty). I was teary eyed thru the whole thing laughing and choking up and so many of the scenes. Dear old mom was my fave and I think I want to have Kate Hudsons children, my gawd what a babe, and she did a damn fine job as head band aid. Hope everyone is well Michael NP-Lulaby of Birdland-Tito Puente Live at Birdland NYC Dancemania '99 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 02:02:34 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Apples, Cheeses and Liebfraumilch In a message dated 10/13/00 1:03:33 AM, jmichaelpaz@telocity.com writes: << Along with tea and certain wines. I know Joni did alot of good for the marketing of a certain German white rhine wine. >> Joni sang: Seventeen glasses Rhine wine Milk of the Madonna Clandestine And she also sang: Well I've got this berth and this roll down blind I've got this fold up sink And these rocks and these cactuses going by And a bottle of German wine to drink That "certain German wine" Michael mentions was Liebfraumilch, I believe, which was big in the '70s and '80s. It's a sweet white wine that goes with things like apples and cheeses. I've been told that Liebfraumilch means, surprise surprise, virgin's milk, or, as Joni says, milk of the Madonna. --Bob ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #395 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?