From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #378 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, September 26 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 378 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: What song, please? [mr_lovesaint@webtv.net] Diana Krall VLJC ["Hell" ] Re: What song, please? [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Uh Oh... (long) [FMYFL@aol.com] New Release Questions ["Christopher J. Treacy" ] Re: Man from Mars [Howard Wright ] a joni moment and a goodbye. [cristen@starwhores.org] Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #513 [SBardMusic@aol.com] What song, please? [TanyerSCO@aol.com] Re: What song, please? [JRMCo1@aol.com] Joni Does Album Art for Rea [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Uh Oh... (long) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Joni in RS [Steve Dulson ] Joni PBS Profile in the Works [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Joni Does Album Art for Rea ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni Does Album Art for Rea [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re, Tom Rush's discovery ? ["Steve" ] Responding to several (VLJC) ["Susan" ] Re: What song, please? [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: What song, please? ["Eric Wilcox" ] Re: What song, please? [TanyerSCO@aol.com] Re: What song, please? [Andy Baio ] Re: What song, please? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: What song, please? [Mark Domyancich ] Re: What song, please? [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Metaphors be with you. [Andy Baio ] Re: What song, please? [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: What song, please? [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: What song, please? ["cassy" ] The Arbutus Story [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] "For The Roses" Lyrics [WirlyPearl@aol.com] Re: The Arbutus Story ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: What song, please? [MGVal@aol.com] Re: The Arbutus Story [MGVal@aol.com] pearl!!!!!!!!!!!!! ["Wally Kairuz" ] hammers, boards and nails ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics ["Kakki" ] Re: Chicago Concert [Nancy ] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics ["Kakki" ] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: "For The Roses" Lyrics ["Eric Wilcox" ] Re: Joni Does Album Art for Rea ["Kakki" ] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: What song, please? [jan gyn ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 04:07:28 -0400 (EDT) From: mr_lovesaint@webtv.net Subject: Re: What song, please? << - - -Julius >> this is from the song " from the roses " on the album of the same name . do i win ?! i so love prizes. ~jessfromatlanta by the way i missed the further fest for the first time ( stupid work strikes again ) but im glad victor got to go on his birthday weekend. and a very happy B'day to all those past and future. NP- talking heads - slippery people ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ heres the whole verse , sing along if you wish : I guess I seem ungrateful With my teeth sunk in the hand That brings me things I really can't give up just yet Now i sit up here The critic! And they introduce some band But they seem so much confetti looking at them on my TV set Oh the power and the glory Just when you're getting a taste for the worship They start bringing out the hammers And the boards And the nails ~joni mitchell- for the roses 1972 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:25:12 -0700 From: "Hell" Subject: Diana Krall VLJC Diana Krall had a concert in Auckland this weekend with the Auckland Philharmonia - I couldn't go due to a serious lack of funds (I state I'm very familiar with) but thought a few people might be interested in the review from The New Zealand Herald: Here's the link (and the story in full for those without web access): http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=152591&thesection=enterta inment&thesubsection=onShow Review: Auckland Philharmonia/ Diana Krall 25.09.2000 - By HEATH LEES What Diana Krall can do with a song has to be heard to be believed. From the merest, caressing whisper to a sassy, up-tempo punch, she roams over tunes that you once knew from way-back, craftily updates them, then finally steals them to become her own. Krall's greatest partner in this affectionate crime is her pianism, alternating a tight and hard-edged sound with a soft sheen that can dissolve into nostalgic shreds, as in the tribute to Nat "King" Cole's I'll String Along With You, where her piano sighed to a close with a fragment of Cole's first hit song Mona Lisa. Alongside the piano on Saturday night there was Dan Faehnie, with a huge guitar and the skill to match. Ben Wolfe's bass-playing drew a big response from the audience, while Rodney Green discreetly animated the combo on drums. But it was Krall's show. Perfectly at ease, never trying to hype up the audience, she simply gave them what they had come to hear. Before Kralling her way through I've Got You Under My Skin, she admitted that she had come to know the song through the mid-60s LP Sinatra at the Sands with Count Basie. Oddly, the arrangement came out sounding lush and broad, more like his treatment 10 years earlier on the Capitol label with Nelson Riddle. But who cared about the details? After giving the song a new quality of dreamy infatuation, she bounced into Let's Face the Music and Dance and then suddenly it all changed again, and she was alone with the piano in a wistful little love-song called A Case of You. Change and transformation all the way, every song a pearl on a long and generous thread. In such classy, self-contained company, there was little for the Auckland Philharmonia to do except sprinkle a few string chords here and there, and look on admiringly. Still, the earlier, very short, first half featured orchestral music by Gershwin and Bernstein - not memorably played, but setting the right mood. Me now: A wistful little love song? I thought Joni might get a better mention than that! I'll have to educate these ignorant NZ journalists! Hell _____________________________________ "Great poets require great audiences" Walt Whitman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 06:44:21 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: What song, please? In a message dated 9/24/00 11:33:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, JRMCo1@aol.com writes: << >> The lovely, lovely "For the Roses." What did I win? MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 06:58:01 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Uh Oh... (long) Julius quotes from the article on David Chapman: << Chapman also plays guitar. "I'm working on some Joni Mitchell stuff," he says. I like what you call folk rock now: Joni Mitchell, America, Don McLean. I've mellowed. The music soothes me." >> I don't know if Joni would be frightened that a psycho killer is playing her music OR if she would be pissed that he places her in the "folk" category. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 08:04:29 -0400 From: "Christopher J. Treacy" Subject: New Release Questions Has anyone gotten any further info about the tribute album? Is there a release date yet? Also, does anyone know what the fate of the long-in-the-discussion-phase Joni Box Set? I recall Wally mentioning it as far back as 1995, and he was to contribute a few rather precious recordings for it, including "Day After Day", which he had an acetate demo of from 1965. Thoughts? ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:04:12 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Re: Man from Mars James Phillips wrote: >I was listening to Taming the Tiger earlier, and was curious as to what >tuning was used for the guitar on Man from Mars, as there is a guitar >listed in the instrumental credits....... I'd like to know this guitar tuning too! This was the only song on the album where I couldn't figure out the tuning. I was hoping that the TTT songbook would have it, but it didn't. I *think* that all of the "orchestration" that was done on this track (all the parts that sound like horns/saxes etc) was played on the VG8 in standard tuning. I think I've heard Joni say that all the "colouring" for the whole album was done in standard tuning, as this was the only way she could access all the different timbres (horns, trumpet etc etc). The main guitar part for MFM sounds like it is in an alternative tuning, but I havn't figured out which one! Howard ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 2000 13:36:02 -0000 From: cristen@starwhores.org Subject: a joni moment and a goodbye. This weekend I picked up a Playbill for the PaperMill Playhouse's version of Pippin at a local theatre flea market. I'm reading the cast list and one name jumps out at me. Joni Mitchell. I look at the playbill again. Ohhhh: Joni Michelle. Oops. Then while waiting to be seated at the Olive Garden, I'm reading the playbill and I do the same exact thing again. Joni on the brain I say. I love to fall asleep to Joni, namely Blue, it's like being immersed in warm, soft water. ;) But about the goodbye. It seems I'm going to have to cut my access here at work, since my co-workers have been reading my private e-mail. And since work is the only place I really have time to read messages, I need to cut down the influx. Otherwise everything will pile up before I can get to read my webmail again. Take care of each other guys, I'll miss you and hopefully I'll be back soon. Cristen starwhores.org home of the genius of the week page Automate and monetize your customer support with BN3 eService, http://www.bn3.com/ ! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:38:27 EDT From: SBardMusic@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #513 i am upset that this man is even allowed to be heard from at all. and it is the sick downside of celebrity that allows sweet joni to even be mentioned by the enemy. be safe and well, joni. thanks for the post. it was very frightening. sb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:39:21 EDT From: TanyerSCO@aol.com Subject: What song, please? Hi Julius! That quote is from "For the Roses". : ) tanya ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:55:11 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: What song, please? Thanks, all, for the info. It's "For the Roses." I saw the quote in the press and couldn't place it off the top o' my head. Interesting that the lyrics are apropos of this time of the year. Synchro again it seems: <...I guess I seem ungrateful With my teeth sunk in the hand That brings me things I really can't give up just yet Now I sit up here The critic! And they introduce some band But they seem so much confetti Looking at them on my TV set Oh the power and the glory Just when you're getting a taste for worship They start bringing out the hammers And the boards And the nails I heard it in the wind last night It sounded like applause Chilly now End of summer No more shiny hot nights It was just the arbutus rustling And the bumping of the logs And the moon swept down black water Like an empty spotlight> - -Julius NP: "For the Roses" so I won't get fooled again. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:58:47 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Joni Does Album Art for Rea It's just a drawing, in the CSNY _So Far_ cover art vein, but just thought you guys would want to know. Link below: - -Julius <> See it at: http://www.chiefseattle.com/david/albums/x7/x7_front_sml.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:52:05 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Uh Oh... (long) <> If she DOES get pissed at him, I hope she contains her feelings about it! Bob, who's liberal in general but has no problem with the death penalty and would have loved to have seen this guy put out of our misery...thanks Julius (I guess) for a very disturbing piece...it scares me, and makes it all the more amazing that Joni is as open to her fans as she is... NP: Red House Painters, "Japanese To English" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:16:29 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Joni in RS Good news/bad news. Penny has located the edition of Rolling Stone containing the infamous chart of Joni's love life - it is issue number 101, Feb 3 1972, page(s) (26 &) 27. The bad news - it does not appear to be one of the issues I have. (Neither do those other two you are looking for, Philip.) This sort-of suggests I must have another box of RS some place, so I will keep looking. So Penny - can you see about getting it scanned? - -- ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:17:50 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Joni PBS Profile in the Works I'll shut up for a while after this one, gang, I swear. - -Julius <> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:45:26 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni Does Album Art for Rea Wow Julius, what a find! I went to his main home page and clicked on "new CD" and you can also see the back of the CD which has another Joni watercolor and ink painting that is fantastic! Very much in the style of Song to a Seagull with lots of flowers and roses and an elfin figure in the midst of all of it. Thanks for sharing - I'm going to pick this one up! Kakki > It's just a drawing, in the CSNY _So Far_ cover art vein, but >just thought you guys would want to know. Link below: > > -Julius > See it at: http://www.chiefseattle.com/david/albums/x7/x7_front_sml.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:26:22 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Does Album Art for Rea Thanks for pointing the back cover out, Kakki. I wasn't sure if Joni had done that part, but I noticed her signature at bottom right upon second glance. I checked out the liner notes too. It says: "The portrait on the cover, by his dear friend Joni Mitchell, was done at the age of three-times-seven." That's about circa STAS, isn't it? - -Julius Kakki writes: << Wow Julius, what a find! I went to his main home page and clicked on "new CD" and you can also see the back of the CD which has another Joni watercolor and ink painting that is fantastic! Very much in the style of Song to a Seagull with lots of flowers and roses and an elfin figure in the midst of all of it. Thanks for sharing - I'm going to pick this one up! Kakki > It's just a drawing, in the CSNY _So Far_ cover art vein, but just thought you guys would want to know. Link below: > > -Julius > See it at: http://www.chiefseattle.com/david/albums/x7/x7_front_sml.htm >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:46:31 +0100 From: "Steve" Subject: Re, Tom Rush's discovery ? Clark wrote I've got a tape of a BBC Tribute Radio Show from 1980 that I recorded as it was broadcast by American DJ Paul Gambaccini here's what he says of the Joni/ Tom Rush discovery........ "Joni moved to Toronto where she met short time husband Chuck Mitchell, Chuck and Joni moved to Detroit where they worked as a duo. It was in the motor city that they met New Hampshire folk singer Tom Rush a major figure in the Boston folk scene and a recording artist of national stature. Rush had the uncanny ability to identify major songwriters before they had experienced success, he recorded James Taylor and Jackson Browne songs before they were well known. In 1966 he took one of Joni Mitchell's songs to Judy Collins but she didn't want to do it so Tom recorded Urge for Going himself and scored a Top Ten Hit in New England it was Joni Mitchell's breakthrough as a songwriter..........Rush then included two more Joni songs on his next LP......The Circle Game ........." Looks like Tom has got a claim there. I'm no historian but I'll be happy to copy the Gambaccini tape for those that want one. STEVE.......NP. Sweet Joni by Neil Young ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:17:17 -0500 From: "Susan" Subject: Responding to several (VLJC) Hello All! It has been sometime since I have posted, but I do this from work right now and that has been crazed! But coming back down to earth now and preparing for my trip this week to Phoenix - actually Mesa, AZ. for a long weekend of rest relaxation and powerful beverages. I just want to say one thing (or many), I like when we argue, - not fight but debate! So what if we don't always agree, I think part of becoming a better fuller person is to except or learn about people who are different or think different. You make friends, by first finding a common thread and then celebrating them and some of their differences. This is how we learn, experience and become the wise old people we will be one day ... far far in the future! We all associate arguing I think, as I do, with our dysfunctional family pasts and we sometimes think we can't get beyond the anger and get to the meat of an issue. We can! New rules people - we can do anything we want, so let's make it all better. I too have noticed some people trying to quickly move on when the subject is gay ... I say - just keep talking if you have something to say. I too know that when a prominent gay/lesbian couple is in the public eye, especially as Melissa and Ellen have been in the past few months, I must answer for them. And that's an easy one to respond to, how many Hetero-celebraties have a clean slate when it comes to divorce, infidelity, child -abuse (Ms. Crawford?) etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I am trying to catch up and contribute from all the posts I have just read but I think it's best to stick with the most recent and declare never to fall so far behind again! By the way quickies to my White Sox friends Vince, Scott Jody! Go Go White Sox and congratulations on winning the Central Division! Hooray! I never met Wally. I don't know that he knew how important and how much he touched all of our lives. I envy those of you who knew him and know from my own losses in life, how good it is to keep people and love alive by keeping their legacy going. I think it was Leslie, who mentioned how she and Wally used to play with Joni lines fitting into an everyday situation and kind of dueling with Joni words. It might be fun to somehow incorporate that as a new thread in some way. I'm just kind of thinking out loud, so please somebody help if you have any ideas. Happy Birthday to All , Welcome to all Newbies, Glad to be back! Most of all ... Peace Susan - Guz P. S. Why do I always get so serious here, I am the silliest person I know ... well except for ... never mind! NP - Steely Dan - Do It Again ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:26:06 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: What song, please? In a message dated 9/25/00 2:57:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TanyerSCO@aol.com writes: << >> Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to make a coffin? That's always been my interpretation, but with so many others on this list, I'm sure there are some other ideas. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:30:45 -0500 From: "Eric Wilcox" Subject: RE: What song, please? Maybe this reference is to crucifiction? Hammering Jesus to the cross? just an idea- eric - --- eric wilcox edwilcox@students.wisc.edu "It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious." -Oscar Wilde - --- - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of IVPAUL42@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 6:26 PM To: TanyerSCO@aol.com; joni@smoe.org Cc: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: What song, please? In a message dated 9/25/00 2:57:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TanyerSCO@aol.com writes: << >> Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to make a coffin? That's always been my interpretation, but with so many others on this list, I'm sure there are some other ideas. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:34:24 EDT From: TanyerSCO@aol.com Subject: Re: What song, please? In a message dated 9/25/00 7:26:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, IVPAUL42 writes: << << >> Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to make a coffin? That's always been my interpretation, but with so many others on this list, I'm sure there are some other ideas. Paul I >> I always thought it was reffering to a crucifix. "Just when you're getting the taste for worship". But I guess it could be a coffin. I never thought of it that way. : ) tanya ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:36:52 -0700 From: Andy Baio Subject: Re: What song, please? IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: >> "Just when you get a taste for worship, >> they start bringing out the boards and the nails." > Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is > to make a coffin? That's always been my interpretation, but with so many > others on this list, I'm sure there are some other ideas. Hmm, I don't think so... It seems pretty likely to me that she's talking about crucifixion, what with the "worship" context and all. -- Andy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:45:50 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: What song, please? << Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to make a coffin? That's always been my interpretation, but with so many others on this list, I'm sure there are some other ideas. >> I've always put that comment in the context of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, Paul. Your interpretation makes sense too, though. Bob NP: Cactus Tree ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:47:35 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: What song, please? I think it's always been about Jesus, when you get the taste for worship (hence, worshipping Jesus) and the boards and nails as his cross. I do like your interpretation though, Paul. I had never thought about it until now. NP-Jerry Garcia/David Grisman - 2/3/91: The Thrill Is Gone At 7:26 PM -0400 9/25/00, IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: >Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to >make a coffin? > That's always been my interpretation, but with so many others on this list, >I'm sure there are some other ideas. > >Paul I - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ "Close it yourself, shitty!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:50:34 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: What song, please? In a message dated 9/25/00 7:44:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edwilcox@students.wisc.edu writes: << Maybe this reference is to crucifiction? Hammering Jesus to the cross? just an idea- eric >> I guess that is not a reference I would think of. Some guy got nailed to a cross? How awful. When did that happen? I haven't seen anything about it in the papers. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:50:32 -0700 From: Andy Baio Subject: Metaphors be with you. > > Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is > > to make a coffin? That's always been my interpretation, but with so many > > others on this list, I'm sure there are some other ideas. This thread reminds me of Tom Hanks' character in 'You've Got Mail': "I could never be with someone who likes Joni Mitchell. 'It's clouds' illusions I recall. I really don't know clouds at all.' What does that mean? Is she a pilot? Is she taking flying lessons? It must be a metaphor for something, but I don't know what it is." -- Andy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:03:57 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: What song, please? << << >> Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to make a coffin? >> That is an interesting interpretation Paul. I never thought of it that way. That's what so great about Joni's lyrics. As Joni says ""Who cares what I meant? What does it mean to you?" Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:06:47 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: What song, please? In a message dated 9/25/00 6:31:36 PM EST, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to make a coffin? >> i definately think it refers to a crucifixtion and more specifically, to the guilt driven nature of attonement christianity. and i think joni found that offensive because she knew too much beauty in the world to be driven by guilt. case in point, her story about getting booted from sunday school for asking where cain's wife came from in the bible...if it was only cain and able and cain killed able. so where did the wife come from? that question for joni at age like 12, is very consistant with a statement like..just when you start to see god...to worship god...other's screw it up with some guilt....nails and boards. just my own interpretation. patrick np. nsync...bye bye bye ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:30:43 -0400 From: "cassy" Subject: Re: What song, please? >IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: >>> Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to make a coffin? That's always been my interpretation, but with so many others on this list, I'm sure there are some other ideas.<<< others believed that: >>>It seems pretty likely that she's talking about crucifixion<<< I had yet another interpretation. When buildings are condemned they are boarded up, the windows and doors covered by hammering boards across them with nails. it never ceases to amaze me how we open each other's minds. Cassy N.P. City of Angels Soundtrack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:57:39 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: The Arbutus Story Since the topic was "For the Roses", I thought some of you might enjoy this story she introduces the song with in her 1974 Radio City Concert... I love her "stories"! Bob NP: "All my life I've had kind of a battle going, a running duality between the spiritual & the sensual, you know, and I decided it was time the spiritual won out, at least for a little while...I looked around and my place had gotten kinda Tchoctky'ed up, over-opulent, and I thought that I had strayed off of some kind of path, like I was losing something, I don't know... So I trekked back up to Canada, bought myself a piece of land, decided to put my money where my mouth was, get myself genuinely back to the garden, or at least give it a try, you know? I've always been fascinated by the story of Adam & Eve, not because that was when women became a lower class of citizen, you know, I mean, (applause) No, no, the story never meant that to me, I thought that it was a beautiful poem written by a guy with a lot of future projection. You know, a lot of times it's interpreted by evangelists and different clerical people that I've talked to, as a place that existed a long time ago somewhere along the outskirts of the Nile or Jerusalem, something that disappeared, and I'd always thought it was kinda the story of the beginning of knowledge, you know? But I guess I'm side-tripping, running off at the mouth here, but... What it always kinda meant to me was, that, Man, the Beauty of Man, was his superiority while he still maintained his humility, which was before he *realized* that he had a virtue. Because as soon as you've got a virtue and you KNOW about it, it's gone, forget it...(laughter) So, he began as a tender of the creatures, not as a superior, he was sort of gentle with them, then one day he woke up and he looked at himself, and said 'Goddamn, they got better plumage, and furs, and everything', so he started to drape himself. Now I like to drape myself with those sort of things from time to time, but sometimes it makes me feel guilty, and that's what happened this particular morning. I woke up with a treacherous case of middle class guilt, so I decided to move myself to some deserted area, and grow myself a garden, and get back to it! Even an artichoke in a terrarium, anything...(laughter) My house was in the process of being built, I took a lot of hard furniture, it was like a house of correction I was building, everything was hard, you had to sit straight up in it, you know? I was sort of working on the Thoreau theory too, you know, like one chair for myself and one for society...no, three chairs, one for solitude, one for company, and one for society, that's right.... So I moved back up there and I was staying in this little cabin, and one night I heard what sounded to me like applause, it was like this clapping outside my door, you know, so I stepped out onto the steps, and....took a bow (Joni laughs)....(applause)....I stepped out and I looked up and right in front of my door was this tree called the Arbutus tree, which I think is really my favorite all-time tree...it's got a really smooth, orange bark, and really smooth rubbery kind of leaves, and it's a very independent tree, just has totally its own will, you can't...you can't tame it, you know? Like there's this street in Vancouver called Arbutus Street, and they tried to transplant a whole lot of Arbutus trees to line it, you know, just like Elm street's always lined with elms, and maple street's lined with maples...so they put in all these arbutus trees, and they just said 'forget it', you know, just kamikaze'd out......." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:55:01 EDT From: WirlyPearl@aol.com Subject: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/25/00 8:41:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cassysweet@email.msn.com writes: << >IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: >>> Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to make a coffin? That's always been my interpretation, but with so many others on this list, I'm sure there are some other ideas.<<< others believed that: >>>It seems pretty likely that she's talking about crucifixion<<< I had yet another interpretation. When buildings are condemned they are boarded up, the windows and doors covered by hammering boards across them with nails. it never ceases to amaze me how we open each other's minds. Cassy I agree more with Cassy's interpretation of those lines. I think "getting a taste for worship" has nothing at all to do with religion, crosses or Jesus. I think she means getting to really enjoy having people adore and worship HER. And just when she's at that point where she expects the worship, even craves it, it stops. Show's over. Suddenly she's not hot anymore, someone else becomes the new media darling, her 15 minutes are up. Hence, the reference to "bringing out the hammers and the boards and the nails....as in "this building is condemned". It especially seems appropriate in relation to the earlier line where she says "things I really can't give up just yet" followed by her criticism of the band that seems to be taking her place on TV. Actually, in context with the lyrics before "a taste for worship" it's hard for me be see it being interpreted any other way and have it make any sense. What I would like to hear are interpretations of the first lines below... " I guess I seem ungrateful With my teeth sunk in my hand...". For The Roses <...I guess I seem ungrateful With my teeth sunk in the hand That brings me things I really can't give up just yet Now I sit up here The critic! And they introduce some band But they seem so much confetti Looking at them on my TV set Oh the power and the glory Just when you're getting a taste for worship They start bringing out the hammers And the boards And the nails > Pearl (I think this is actually one of the first times in almost 3 years that I have actually analyzed a lyric out loud to the list. Hope I explained it OK.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:03:30 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Arbutus Story Like > there's this street in Vancouver called Arbutus Street, and they tried to > transplant a whole lot of Arbutus trees to line it, you know, just like Elm > street's always lined with elms, and maple street's lined with maples...so > they put in all these arbutus trees, and they just said 'forget it', you > know, just kamikaze'd out......." Great story! Thanks for the transcription, Bob! Arbutus grow all over Seattle. They call them madronas here. Apparently some of the early settlers of the area thought they were magnolias (there is some similarity in appearance) and named a hill that had a lot of madronas growing on it, Magnolia Bluff. There is also a section of Seattle called Madrona. But I don't think 'it was just the madronas rustling and the bumpin of the logs' sounds nearly as intriguing as 'it was just the arbutus rustling' (had to get some Joni content in there somewhere!) Siquomb knows best! Class dismissed! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:12:01 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics What I would like to hear > are interpretations of the first lines below... > > " I guess I seem ungrateful > With my teeth sunk in my hand...". > > For The Roses She's talking about being critical of the music business. She's biting the hand that feeds her. I have to go along with the crucifixion interpretation of the hammers & boards and nails line. The performer has been enjoying her success, the public adulation, the critical acclaim and then suddenly, no warning, no nothing (are you reading this Colin?) she's being metaphorically crucified by both the critics and the public. My two centavos Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:17:41 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/25/00 10:03:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, WirlyPearl@aol.com writes: << Suddenly she's not hot anymore, someone else becomes the new media darling, her 15 minutes are up. Hence, the reference to "bringing out the hammers and the boards and the nails....as in "this building is condemned". >> My interpretation is at least consistent with this in that a condemned building is ready for "burial." The crucifixion one seems more popular, but I suggest it's a leap of faith to get from boards to a cross, which is made of posts, not boards. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:53:45 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: What song, please? In a message dated 9/25/00 4:31:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << >> Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to make a coffin? >> Well, I always thought that what fit best was being crucified. Boards and nails to make the cross and then hang you up and leave you there. MG with her Catholic roots showing... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:02:56 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: The Arbutus Story In a message dated 9/25/00 6:07:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << ince the topic was "For the Roses", I thought some of you might enjoy this story she introduces the song with in her 1974 Radio City Concert... >> Wow. Thanks so much. Loved it. I have a few concert tapes, but it's next to impossible for me to "hear" and "understand" what she is saying. Thanks again, MG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:24:02 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: pearl!!!!!!!!!!!!! pearl, how great to hear from you!!!! where were you last laborday weekend, by the way, you bad bad bad girl???? we missed you! wallyk > > Pearl > > (I think this is actually one of the first times in almost 3 years that > I have actually analyzed a lyric out loud to the list. Hope I explained > it OK.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:19:25 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: hammers, boards and nails Yah, I agree- crucifixition makes lots of sense. I always saw a gallows being built on this line, but it's death too. Crucifixition makes more sense. Thanks to all for sharing. Getting back to a "tape" tree, who's in? Just Michael and me?? Who's in?? All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:33:07 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics >" The crucifixion one seems more popular, but >I suggest it's a leap of faith to get from boards to a cross, >which is made of posts, not boards. Well, actually the little gold crucifixes worn by Catholics and some other Christian denominations are flat and look like boards, not posts. So that is probably the reference point for Joni and a lot of the rest of us (not having been there to see they were actually posts). I also always saw it as a metaphor for the crucifixtion of Jesus. To remember the basic lesson from Sunday School ;-) Jesus was at the very height of his popularity and acclaim right before being put to death,. The Roman Emperor (I forget his name) got angry that Jesus was getting so much attention (and possible power) away from him. Rome had jurisdiction over Israel at the time and the emperor thought Jesus (who some were calling the "King of the Jews") could be a political threat to him and so ordered his death. I think Joni is identifying with this metaphorically - she was also reaching the peak of her commercial popularity and that's always a dangerous spot to be in because so much of our culture has a tendency to like to tear down the very thing they elevate after awhile. But the coffin and condemned building metaphors work along the same lines of thought, too. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:47:15 +0100 From: Nancy Subject: Re: Chicago Concert Hi Phyliss, Nope, that was *not* me!! Thanks for the clarification; I guess Amy was there! Nancy/IA Phyliss Ward wrote: > > Nancy wrote: > > > I can't help but wonder if my sister-in-law and I were two of the > > women you heard talking after the concert! LOL! > > Ha! I thought of that too but I doubt it seriously. Why? Well, I didn't want to share > this with the whole group but the woman was saying something like "the hell with Joni > Mitchell, I saw Amy Grant tonight". That wouldn't have been you would it???? Also, we > were walking into the hotel, Doubletree I think, to meet some JMDL members. > -- > Phyliss > mailto:pward@datacourse.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:51:16 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/26/00 12:46:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << Well, actually the little gold crucifixes worn by Catholics and some other Christian denominations are flat and look like boards, not posts. So that is probably the reference point for Joni and a lot of the rest of us (not having been there to see they were actually posts). >> I'm only going by recollections of Charleton Heston in the movies, but also think of boards as being cut by the kinds of saws they didn't have in the 1st century. Seems to me board wood is an invention of a period later than that. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:46:25 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics Paul wrote: > I'm only going by recollections of Charleton Heston in the >movies, but also think of boards as being cut by the kinds of >saws they didn't have in the 1st century. Seems to me board >wood is an invention of a period later than that. No, I don't think so. Remember Joseph was a carpenter. And didn't they build their boats and arks with board wood, rather than posts? ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:00:43 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/26/00 12:59:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << No, I don't think so. Remember Joseph was a carpenter. And didn't they build their boats and arks with board wood, rather than posts? ;-) Kakki >> Maybe. What's a cubit? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:06:06 -0500 From: "Eric Wilcox" Subject: RE: "For The Roses" Lyrics Indeed, the original cross was not made out of 2X4s-- it was probably more like the posts previously described. However, being an art history student-- I know a lot about religious subjects in art. Though the entire Passion occurred in the near east, artists, particularly after the 15th century, will comnly depict Christian occurances "in their own back yard." (as we art historians are inclined to say). The characters wear clothing that is related to the current fashion. The people look all pale and northern-European like or sun-tanned Italian, and the landscape or cityscape will be Bruges or Antwerp or Florence or Rome. It has traditionally been a custom of artist to portray religious figures in the most current time period; in the most current fashion. The cross is not immune. In our modern day, we've assumed that it was made of common boards. We don't even think that maybe there were no Menards stores in Jerusalem. Yet classically, you'll see the cross made of boards. Regardless of all of this banter-- the fact is when we talk about board and nails and pair that up with religion-- the connotation is that of the crucifiction of Christ. Of course there are other interpretations (I've been very impressed by those that shared other opinions)-- but that's why people make that association. eric - --- eric wilcox edwilcox@students.wisc.edu "It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious." -Oscar Wilde - --- - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of IVPAUL42@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 11:51 PM To: KakkiB@worldnet.att.net; Joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/26/00 12:46:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << Well, actually the little gold crucifixes worn by Catholics and some other Christian denominations are flat and look like boards, not posts. So that is probably the reference point for Joni and a lot of the rest of us (not having been there to see they were actually posts). >> I'm only going by recollections of Charleton Heston in the movies, but also think of boards as being cut by the kinds of saws they didn't have in the 1st century. Seems to me board wood is an invention of a period later than that. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:02:52 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni Does Album Art for Rea Julius wrote: > Thanks for pointing the back cover out, Kakki. I wasn't sure >if Joni had done that part, but I noticed her signature at >bottom right upon second glance. I checked out the liner >notes too. It says: "The portrait on the cover, by his dear >friend Joni Mitchell, was done at the age of three-times->seven." That's about circa STAS, isn't it? Yes! I looked this up again at work (where I have a better and bigger monitor) and it is dated '67. I love that back cover - it's better than the STAS art - and I saw two little fairies or elves with flower petal caps in the flowers. There were also some seagulls and other birds in the painting. I wonder if this may have been part of a "Gandalfian" series she was creating at the time. In the front portrait of Rea I noticed some more seagulls, a streetlight and some power transformers and electric lines. I think he should lend the works to the next "Voices" tour ;-) And hey Mark in Seattle, Scott in Port Angeles and Catherine T. soon to be in Seattle - I saw that David Rea lives on Bainbridge and is playing at the Main St. Ale House in Kingston almost every week through October. I'd loved to make a gathering there next time I come up! ;-) Kakki, over her posting limit for the day and saying goodnight . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:34:54 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/26/00 12:52:11 AM, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << The Roman Emperor (I forget his name) got angry that Jesus was getting so much attention (and possible power) away from him. >> According to The Life of Brian, that Emperor's name was Bigus Dickus. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:28:37 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: What song, please? >TanyerSCO@aol.com writes: ><< start bringing out the boards and the nails."> > >> >Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to >make a coffin? > That's always been my interpretation, but with so many others on this list, >I'm sure there are some other ideas. >Paul I I first thought it was for a crucifix. Then I thought emery boards for fingernails. - -jan ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #378 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?