From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #371 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, September 19 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 371 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Yellow Wallpaper - Cop Out? [B Merrill ] Re: Yellow Wallpaper - Cop Out? [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: Pre-quel in Richard's house ["Patricia O'Connor" ] Re: SJC, the song "come love" from Both Sides Now ["Brenda J. Walker" ] re: Mendel "voices" gate ["c Karma" ] Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter there is? [quiff@earthling.co.uk] re: Prequel to Harry's House/HOSL ["Stephen Epstein" ] Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter there is? [Don Rowe ] RE: A Joni moment....(or two) ["Garret" ] Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter of our time? [B Merrill ] odd joni musical trivia question ["Michael Bird" ] SJC - Van Gogh at the piano [Steve Mixon ] Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter of our time? ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter of our time? ["Kakki" ] Re: is joni the best song writer?? ["Blair Fraipont" > Welcome out of lurkdom, Tammi...I'd love to hear more about your experiences at the Mendel! >> Over the period of the exhibition I have had a chance to meet many of you as I was one of the two animators for the exhibition. >> I'll plead ignorance on this statement...do you mean there's a cartoon coming out with Joni in it? Will she have special powers? :~D Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:52:17 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: Yellow Wallpaper - Cop Out? MG said: >And while this is all true, Joni's portraits are still very relevant and >timeless. Women AND men STILL give up spiritual growth and adult maturity to >compete in suburban materialism. The woman can have her career, but recent >surveys show that the burden for home and children still fall mainly on her >shoulders. Whereas the options for women (esp. for middle class women) have improved greatly since the 60's, the problem of materialism (as a seduction, an obsession) is just as much with us, isn't it? Maybe it's even more with us, with this gung ho economy of the past decade and all this new wealth. And it's something that applies to both sexes, just as both Harry and Mrs. Harry are focused on it, in their own way. Bruce M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:38:26 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Yellow Wallpaper - Cop Out? In a message dated 9/17/00 1:21:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << women found themselves approaching middle age with no sense of their own identity. Some returned to college or to pursuing their own original interests in order to "find" themselves again after putting themselves second to their husbands and children for so many years. >> the exact scenario in my parents home. my mother was in nursing school when she met my father and dropped out, had 8 kids, moved to the city, he worked his career in insurance and eventually had a series of heart attacks that left him disabled at the age 47. she went back to college at age 43 and ended up working as a teacher for almost 20 years. my father died at 58 and i highly doubt they'd have made it if he had not gotten sick. their roles reversed and he became the cook and she became the bread earner. toward the end of his life, he told me he loved going to the grocery store because of all the colors he saw there. this from a man who drank beefeater martini's ...silver bullets...for lunch every day. only last thought i have is that my emotions definately come from my very italian mother who was known to fling food in the midst of heated arguments. chili, pizza, and even a handfull of spagetti on one occasion. as kids, if they started to argue, we knew to keep a very low profile and to slip under the table if the going got rough. to this day, my brother still ducks if he hears a loud voice in a restraunt. in their later years, they laughed about it all. patrick np. rt. pharoah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:36:42 -0400 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Re: Pre-quel in Richard's house From: Kakki > I agree that a reading of the lyrics makes the Jose Feliciano connection > very plausible. I don't know whether Hissing was inspired by Jose Feliciano, maybe Chaka was making a joke, albeit a bad one, because of the references to darkness and blindness in the lyric, but it occurs to me, that since a blind man can't enjoy the view of the valley barbeques and the blue pools in the squinting sun from his suburban "dream" house, what he would notice is the hiss of the lawn sprinklers. Maybe he brought that sound to Joni's attention? > However, the darkness alluded to could > also be to more than his lack of sight. And almost certainly is, besides"darkness" has that nice hiS-S-S ending. Patricia O'Connor p.a.oconnor@att.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:17:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Bird Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2000 #501 >>>>>>>>Wow! Can you tell us anymore about that attribution? Unfortunately I can't. On the Jazz On A Summersday tapes Chaka introduces this song with something like, 'Joni went to visit Jose Feliciano and wrote this song after the visit.' My impression of this event, however dimmed by my notoriously faulty memory, supports the idea that Chaka's attribution was correct. After Chaka said Jose's name, I looked over at Joni (I was a couple of rows back) and she was madly gesticulating to Chaka -- a combination of a "sshh!" gesture with a waving of hands indicating, "shut up!" Chaka couldn't cover her tracks after that. Then again, Joni might have done the same thing no matter what name Chaka tossed out, to prevent giving the rich blind man of HOSL any name at all. For what it's worth, I picture Jose in that song when I hear it now, and I still have my little Canada Day flag from the event. Nickel Chief ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:58:41 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: SJC, the song "come love" from Both Sides Now Dianne Reeves also does a great version on "Quiet After The Storm." James O Phillips wrote: > On her album Both Sides Now, Joni does a wonderful version of the song > "Come Love" (the one where it goes, comes love, nothing can be done) > > Anyways, for fans of that song, on her album "Speak Love" Ella Fitzgerald > does a wonderful reading of that song, accompanied only by guitarist Joe > Pass. I highly recommend checking that version out of that wonderfuls > song. > > James Phillips > > Visit my updated web page > http://homestead.juno.com/jamespatrick7556/JamesthePage.html I've added > links to my JamesthePage2 and GCAP towards the bottom of the page. > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:01:46 GMT From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Prequel to Harry's House/HOSL Yeah, Chaka spilled the beans on HOSL being about Jose Feliciano's domescile at the Joni's Jazz tribute in Central Park last year, making remarks about the song before she sang it. Looking right at Joni, she said something like, "this is the song you told me you wrote after visiting Jose Feliciano." I seem to remember reports of a mortified, wide-eyed Joni placing a finger to her lips, attempting damage control. I couldn't see from my seat next to the sound board. Chaka noted Joni's reaction but it didn't slow her down one bit. Be careful what you tell this girl! I think that the lines using analogies to television picture tubes are especially clever knowing this association, "Tube's gone darkness darkness, no color, no contrast." "He gave her his darkness to regret and good reason to quit him." CC "I'm not above gossip, but I'll sit on a secret where honor is at stake." -- JM _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:46:34 GMT From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Mendel "voices" gate Tammi, Thanks for the update on the success of "voices." I'm sure that Gilles Hebert and the whole Mendel staff must be very happy with that figure (not to mention a few smiles on the faces over at the Chamber of Commerce). 80,000 visitors? Congratulations, Joni! I'm very happy to have been one of them. With a gate that large, I can't imagine we've seen the last of "voices" or another showing of Joni's visual art. CC "I'd like to call back summertime and have her stay for just another month or so." -- JM _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:51:37 +0100 (GMT+01:00) From: quiff@earthling.co.uk Subject: Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter there is? - --4819655.969299497339.JavaMail.nobody@www-a24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Relayer wrote: > >>>Does everyone here think that Joni is THE best >>>singer/songwriter there is and ever has been? I know >>>she herself thinks she's among the best in the world. I think she's probably *among* the best, for her sheer integrity alone. I find it very reassuring when singer/songwriters have faith and pride in their work, rather than their image or back-catalogue. That said, it would surprise me if her more recent material endured and matured as well as earlier stuff has done. I think that *today* there are singer/songwriters with new things to say and new ways to say what they want to, eg Fiona Apple, David Sylvian, Morrissey, etc. To completely mess with an Oscar Wilde quote: Performers of today have Joni's work to build on - that's their blessing. Joni had nobody like that - and that's hers. Nick (with apologies to Oscar) - -"Each woman grows up to be her mother, that's their tragedy. No man does. That's his." (Fair's fair, eh?) "This will require a special blend of psychology and extreme violence"-The Young Ones Be whoever you want to be with another.com Just click here: http://another.com/jump.jsp?destDesc=another.com/login.jsp?sig=390 - --4819655.969299497339.JavaMail.nobody@www-a24-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:01:26 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: re: Prequel to Harry's House/HOSL - ---------------------- Forwarded by Stephen Epstein/Agmont on 09/18/2000 10:45 AM --------------------------- Stephen Epstein 09/18/2000 11:00 AM To: "c Karma" cc: joni@smorg.com Subject: re: Prequel to Harry's House/HOSL (Document link not converted) I'm puzzled as to why Ms. Mitchell would have reacted so. Would she have been embarrased in any way? Or just not wanting the audience to know the "secret" or inspiration for a song? Protecting Jose? Can anyone shed a little light? Regards, Stephen in Vancouver NP: Natalie Merchant- Ophelia "c Karma" on 09/18/2000 10:01:46 AM Please respond to "c Karma" To: merrillb@crisny.org, joni@smoe.org cc: (bcc: Stephen Epstein/Agmont) Subject: re: Prequel to Harry's House/HOSL Yeah, Chaka spilled the beans on HOSL being about Jose Feliciano's domescile at the Joni's Jazz tribute in Central Park last year, making remarks about the song before she sang it. Looking right at Joni, she said something like, "this is the song you told me you wrote after visiting Jose Feliciano." I seem to remember reports of a mortified, wide-eyed Joni placing a finger to her lips, attempting damage control. I couldn't see from my seat next to the sound board. Chaka noted Joni's reaction but it didn't slow her down one bit. Be careful what you tell this girl! I think that the lines using analogies to television picture tubes are especially clever knowing this association, "Tube's gone darkness darkness, no color, no contrast." "He gave her his darkness to regret and good reason to quit him." CC "I'm not above gossip, but I'll sit on a secret where honor is at stake." - -- JM _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:19:44 EDT From: "claud 9" Subject: [none] Where to start? I have been wanting to write about JoniFest since I left Boston but words just aren't easy to come by at times to adequately describe all my wonderful impressions. However, seeing the fest page today and reading the incredibly funny captions, I just have to at least steal Paz's ... OH MY GAWD ... and tell all of you....What another extremely wonderful JoniFest experience this was for me!!!!! Everyone was so enjoyable and easy going and totally open to having a great time... to sing and play and listen to music together. When I walked into Ashara's house, it WAS like returning to a place that felt like home... I had the pleasure of being there in 98 (as a list newbie), had to skip 99 ;-(, and felt a rush of joy simply to be there again in 2000. Ashara, you and your team (Chuck, Maggie, and Heather) are amazing! My hat's off to all of you!!!!!!!!!!! Ashara your willingness to have 40 some people traipse around your house is awesome ... thank you soooooo very much for your vision, your organization, and for dealing with the tedious details which make it all work...simply for making it possible for all of us to gather once again on Labor Day!. How happy I was to be there really hit home when many of the N'awlins festers arrived on Friday... Les, Kakki, Paz, Jimmy, Steve, Leslie, Victor and Bob etc... and when I recognized familiar faces from 98 ... Maggie, Heather, Kenny, Patrick, .... (I am bound to forget someone, sorry ;-)...). And, putting many new faces with familiar list names was especially exciting. I wish so much I had time to acknowledge each and everyone in this note at length.. but time is almost non-existent because of a post-vacation work frenzy. Ashara --- you are a powerhouse of a woman; Jimmy --love your hugs...you and I and John are a sandwich made in heaven; Nikki --- how great of you to jump in and share your enthusiasm for Joni and great music! I will stay in touch since we are pretty much neighbors;-); Kakki -- I missed sipping Martini's with you but the mosquitoes obviously didn't miss sipping on either one of us...I was so sorry though to hear about you getting so sick after the Fest. What a drag. Hope you are feeling better now and can enjoy pleasant memories ;-); Leslie --- so very wonderful to sing with you again! ... and this time we have some of it on tape thanks to you, Steve! Your little minidisk recorder is fabulous... I can't wait to hear us sing the Gallery; Bob --- you are one rockin' dude ;-) your renditions, your voice, your rock-'n-roll moves...how many more talents are you keeping to yourself? Don't hold out on us any longer; Les -- what a pleasure to have been there when you heard Eva Cassidy for the first time... anyone who appreciates her as well as John Martyn as well as Joni has a special place in my heart :-) It was so good to see you again!!!; Paz -- king of the shrimp and the V8 juice... yes, Cold blue... that's how I felt Saturday night ... sorry I was feeling rotten and missed playing with you...but we did have a few wonderful musical moments and there will be many more ;-) ... next time I'll just quit my job a month before the next JoniFest and polish my Sarah and Joni chops so I can keep up with you! Really loved seeing you again; Alison -- thanks so much for coming up and singing Big Yellow Taxi with me... it was one of those special musical moments. Let's do it again next time!; Anne -- so glad I could hear you play and sing and put a face to your name and your posts... you are amazing and an inspiration. If you get anything recorded make sure to let me know! I would love to have you in my CD player. Oh, I could go on and on, ... Wally--thanks for the earrings and your wonderful voice; Jody -- you DO have beautiful eyes... and a great sense of humor; Victor-- thanks for your musical enthusiasm and all those songs; Rose - -- thanks for the pictures, they are great; Mags, Brian, Maggie' Heather, Patrick, Chuck, Bob Murphy, Evie, Julius, MG, Jenny, Joe, Simon ...and everybody else...it was really nice to spend time with you. Wish I had time to write more, but I don't want to wait another two weeks before this gets out ;-)))... I sure hope to see you again!!!! My best to all of you, claud9 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:44:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter there is? For me, this question begs the vacuum in which it is asked. Call it the Clinton in me, but what exactly does "best" mean? And this, of course, is where it gets interesting. If we mean a comparison to the works of others, who do we select? Who writes songs like Joni? If we get technical, and judge it from a musical standpoint of interesting chord progressions and voicings ... again, who writes songs like Joni? If we get literary, and judge on some purely academic critical theory ... well, what do you know ... no one writes songs like Joni! I'll trust that you get my point by now. There are singer songwriters who play the guitar, even those who play in alternate tunings. There are those who write introspective, confessional lyrics. There are those who draw heavily from jazz influences. Those who color their songs with synthesizers. But put it together the way Joni Mitchell does? There's no one even close. So I'll say only that Joni Mitchell is certainly the most "unique" singer/songwriter there is. And in many ways, I think Ms. Mitchell herself might consider that the higher compliment. Don Rowe ===== My debut CD "Closer Now" is now available at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:35:33 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: s Joni the best singer/songwriter there is? Relayer211@aol.com wrote: >Does everyone here think that Joni is THE best singer/songwriter >there is and ever has been?I know she herself thinks she's among the best in >the world. Joni is correct: she's among the best. There can never be a single "best" ... and why should there be? - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:39:40 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: Hiya!! Hi Clive Great stuff. I'm sure we can arrange a Joni get together. You might know that several of us got together about a month ago in Cambridgeshire at Chris Marshall's place for a weekend of wine BBQ and song. Last January Jamie Zubairi organised an evening at a place in Earl's Court called the Troubadour when he, Chris and Marian Russell seranaded us with Joni all evening. Perhaps we can do another get together, and you guys could head the bill? I got a mail from m.harmssen in Frankfurt who's suggesting a Euro Jonifest. I'm not too sure how many mainland Eurolisters we have, but it could be a great meet and greet say in a chalet in the Austrian Alps over shnapps!! (Marian, are you reading this??) You said in your first post that you do mainly 'early Joni'. What does that include? Hejira? Don Juan's Reckless Daughter? I love those two albums, especially Hejira, which is probably my favourite album of anyone's. Another album I'm pretty fanatical about is Blue. How many gigs have you done so far? And are there many Jonifans 'round your parts' ?? atb, Martin. In London. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 11:55 PM Subject: Re: Hiya!! > Hi Martin, and thanks for the message. > We are new to this list, but as musicians we've been around a while. We > formed Foni Mitchell earlier this year, and after some local gigs we are > planning to travel around looking for Joni fans to play to - and hopefully to > convert a few in the process. > We've had e-mail from a number of people who have travelled to the USA to see > Joni, and if we can provide a live (and cheaper!) alternative then hopefully > we can make some people happy. Please do keep in touch, and we hope to come > to London soon - there seems to be a high concentration of JM fans down the > good old M1 ! > Very best wishes, > Clive. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:26:58 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: RE: A Joni moment....(or two) I'm probably a little late on this thread..When i was in the United States this summer i had one or two interesting Joni moments myself. firstly, i actually heard Joni on teh radio numerous times; Big Yellow Taxi, You Turn me on Im a radio, Help Me, Free Man in Paris and Cherokee Louise. i had only ever heard BYT on the radio here in Ireland! i got for myself a little job in Borders bookshop in Hyannis. the folks there like to give one weeks training to all new staff. on my very first morning training, before the store opened my friend Donna and i went into the store only to hear Joni singing At Last on the in-store system. i made it my business to make this CD the last i heard on my last day there too. sort of corny, but it seemed to fit somehow. next Joni moment: i was abusing my Borders discount on my day off, and was purchasing some of the Joni cds i did not have- Shadows and Light, LOTC, STAS, and Mingus. i was standing at one of the info desks talking to a friend when a customer picked up LOTC and asked me if we were stocking this CD, i was more than happy to show her to hte section. i laughed to myself when her son (about eight or nine years old) said "oh god mother, what's that??". "that" seh replied "is the album that made my youth. it's fantastic" "well" he said" i bet she's no eminem"!! that was the first of many times taht i sold Joni Cds......hell, it even got to the point where i was suggesting Joni to people and they were actually buying the albums! and i have one other tale: aimee, a girl i had been living with, came rushing into our house one day and was terribly excited. "thank god for you and taht Joni one" she called "we were in a taxi home from the mall and BYT came in the radio and we were all singing along" i laughed "the driver said to us- you don't know who it is, do yoou now?" well, Aimee was thinking "its that one that Garret's always talkiing about.....but who is it? Fiona Apple, Patti Smith, or Joni MItchell" amd then it came to her"it wouldn't be Miss Joni Mitchell would it?" well, later that day another friend of mine got the same driver and he excitedly told him all about the girl that knew Joni Mitchell. sorry to fill up the bandwidth with so many silly tales:-) GARRET np- Stevie Nicks "Silver Spring" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:29:26 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter of our time? I assumed that the orginal question was rhetorical. But I've been thinking about this topic. So let me re-phrase it along the lines of: Which singer-songwriters of our time, Joni's time (the last 35-40 years, since the revolution in pop-rock-folk songwriting brought about by the "British Invasion," etc) are the most impressive, in terms of both the quality and quantity of their output? I'd like to underline the quantity aspect, since what is especially impressive about Joni is her SUSTAINED creative powers-- and I suspect, most of all, most consistently, her sustained lyrical powers. She has not exhausted herself, or burned out. (Whether she has peaked is another question. Time will tell...) Before answering the question, it might be useful to locate Joni among some of the other major singer-songwriters of her time. Among the contenders might be, off the top of my head, and in no order: The Ladies: Laura Nyro Joni Ricky Lee J Kate Bush The Guys: Dylan Smokey Robinson Willy Dixon Paul Simon Curtis Mayfield Who else? This is not a list of my favorites, what I like most of all. I'm just trying to list the generally venerated singer-songwriters, with a *sustained* track record. And when you emphasize the quantity part, then I suspect that the only songwriters here who might be more prolific than Joni (while keeping up an adequate quality control) would be Dylan and Smokey Robinson. Does that sound right? Please note that I'm ruling out Bachrach because he is not a lyricist, and Sondheim because he is not a singer. I'm also setting aside composing pairs, such as Lennon & McCartney, Becker & Fagen. Apologies if that seems too arbitrary. ciao, Bruce Relayer211@aol.com wrote: > Does everyone here think that Joni is THE best singer/songwriter there >is and ever has been? I know she herself thinks she's among the best in the >world. I only wish she wrote less love songs and more songs about other >subjects. I *think* I agree on this last point.... But But But maybe I don't... 'Cause hasn't she written a great deal on topics outside of her romance de jour? Who else might write a song about, say, Ethiopia? What subjects did you have in mind? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:55:55 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter of our time? For the guys, I think you must include Van Morrisson, And Elvis Costello, though he hasn't been around quite so long. Not sure if I could add to the girls list. Stephen in Vancouver B Merrill on 09/18/2000 11:29:26 AM Please respond to B Merrill To: Joni@smoe.org cc: (bcc: Stephen Epstein/Agmont) Subject: Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter of our time? I assumed that the orginal question was rhetorical. But I've been thinking about this topic. So let me re-phrase it along the lines of: Which singer-songwriters of our time, Joni's time (the last 35-40 years, since the revolution in pop-rock-folk songwriting brought about by the "British Invasion," etc) are the most impressive, in terms of both the quality and quantity of their output? I'd like to underline the quantity aspect, since what is especially impressive about Joni is her SUSTAINED creative powers-- and I suspect, most of all, most consistently, her sustained lyrical powers. She has not exhausted herself, or burned out. (Whether she has peaked is another question. Time will tell...) Before answering the question, it might be useful to locate Joni among some of the other major singer-songwriters of her time. Among the contenders might be, off the top of my head, and in no order: The Ladies: Laura Nyro Joni Ricky Lee J Kate Bush The Guys: Dylan Smokey Robinson Willy Dixon Paul Simon Curtis Mayfield Who else? This is not a list of my favorites, what I like most of all. I'm just trying to list the generally venerated singer-songwriters, with a *sustained* track record. And when you emphasize the quantity part, then I suspect that the only songwriters here who might be more prolific than Joni (while keeping up an adequate quality control) would be Dylan and Smokey Robinson. Does that sound right? Please note that I'm ruling out Bachrach because he is not a lyricist, and Sondheim because he is not a singer. I'm also setting aside composing pairs, such as Lennon & McCartney, Becker & Fagen. Apologies if that seems too arbitrary. ciao, Bruce Relayer211@aol.com wrote: > Does everyone here think that Joni is THE best singer/songwriter there >is and ever has been? I know she herself thinks she's among the best in the >world. I only wish she wrote less love songs and more songs about other >subjects. I *think* I agree on this last point.... But But But maybe I don't... 'Cause hasn't she written a great deal on topics outside of her romance de jour? Who else might write a song about, say, Ethiopia? What subjects did you have in mind? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:57:48 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter of our time? Bruce wrote: > Among the contenders might be, off the top of my head, and in no order: > > The Ladies: > > Laura Nyro > Joni > Ricky Lee J > Kate Bush > > The Guys: > > Dylan > Smokey Robinson > Willy Dixon > Paul Simon > Curtis Mayfield Most worthy contenders, of course. As much as I love Ricky, I do think she's just a tad out of her league here, but I know many would disagree. (I do question the need to break them down by gender, however. Race and genre are at least as important factors in each of these artists' work as gender, and none of the three is as significant as a million intangibles.) To this list I would add, off the top of my head, Prince, Willy Nelson, and the most glaring omission from your list, Neil Young. I strongly suspect that PJ Harvey and Bjork will earn their own places here after a few years as well. If Stevie Wonder's lyrics didn't suck so badly he'd be here, too. But then again, Stevie's lyrics vs. Dylan's music: is one really distractingly poor to a greater degree than the other? As for the arc of Joni's work, while she clearly puts out some great stuff still, I'd say the quality control on her songwriting (thought NOT her singing) has weakened just a bit over the past ten years or so. I say that not to diminish Joni so much as to remind us to be a bit kind to other artists in their later years whom we are now comparing to her. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:21:51 PDT From: "Tim Jordan" Subject: Re: relayer at the white house: a plea Relayer211@aol.com wrote: >....they DO know it (I've heard each one refer to it as a Joni Mitchell >song on tv-Hillary on the Joni tribute special,Bill on a music program on >MTV >),in their hearts they think of it as a Judy Collins song.I think that's >the >way it always shall be... At least she doesn't have to go by Nathan La Franeer. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 20:33:12 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter of our time? << The Ladies: Laura Nyro Joni Ricky Lee J Kate Bush The Guys: Dylan Smokey Robinson Willy Dixon Paul Simon Curtis Mayfield >> Stephen already said Elvis Costello, but I'll second that vote. Probably THE most prolific songwriter of the last 20 years and master of every genre there is, just about. I'd also include Bruce Springsteen, our generation's Woody Guthrie, who explores a consistent theme but does it with such brilliance much like Joni can write love song after love song and never duplicate herself...and thanks for including Curtis Mayfield. And the Willie Dixon choice is inspired but odd...many bluesmen would also be eligible (John Le Hooker, Muddy Waters), including most obviously Chuck Berry. Also, I know you have that Kate Bush thing going on, but I wouldn't include her in this group. She's not very prolific, is she? I would name Carole King before RLJ OR Kate... Obviously, these kinds of lists are always subjective, but they are a lot of fun as well! Thanks for the thought-provoking post... Bob NP: Fleetwood Mac, "Over My Head" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:05:22 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Prequel to Harry's House/HOSL > Yeah, Chaka spilled the beans on HOSL being about Jose Feliciano's domescile > at the Joni's Jazz tribute in Central Park last year, making remarks about > the song before she sang it. Looking right at Joni, she said something > like, "this is the song you told me you wrote after visiting Jose > Feliciano." snip> I think that the lines using analogies to television picture tubes are > especially clever knowing this association, "Tube's gone darkness darkness, > no color, no contrast." "He gave her his darkness to regret and good reason > to quit him." Well I can see how it fits if it is true, but personally I would prefer to believe that it isn't. Or if it is true that Jose's home life inspired the song, I would hope that Joni was trying to convey something more than the image of a wealthy blind man and his wife living a suburban life style. The references to darkness and the tube always seemed to be referring to the stagnant, colorless routine of this woman's life. The darkness he gives her to regret is his own dissatisfaction & anger - all that baggage that material success has never managed to dispel. I see the woman as a trophy wife that this man has built a show case for. The diamond for her throat is like a collar. Fences & security systems seem to imprison more than they protect. The man has succeeded, however, in keeping 'out the unknown'. Nothing new or challenging can get in. I've always felt the blindness was metaphorical, representing an inability to see what is wrong with the situation or perceive that there is a world of alternative possibilities waiting just outside. Both the man and the woman are blind to these possibilities, so she stays with a love of some kind... Somehow giving the references to blindness a literal meaning just ruins the song for me. Chaka should have kept her mouth shut. Maybe it's some kind of running joke that the two of them have about the song. I prefer to be in denial on this subject! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:06:05 -0500 From: "Michael Bird" Subject: odd joni musical trivia question does anybody know, offhand, what Joni's widest vocal leap is? meaning, the notes within one phrase with the widest spread on the scale. just curious. this came to mind while chirping to myself the line "i came in as bright as a neon light and i burned out right there before him" and couldn't get as high as "came in" nor as low as "him" and realized she does that wack note-jumpin' all the time. i had a similar problem this weekend after a few bourbons warbling the first verse of "I Heard it Through the Grapevine" at a party. "some other GUY you knew before." forget it! Nickel Chief ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:06:11 -0700 From: Steve Mixon Subject: SJC - Van Gogh at the piano Hi, folks, A much delayed and pondered communication from il mandolinisto. I'll start with the SJC. Leslie and I went to Boston for a day after we left Ashara's, and before heading back West. While there, we went to the Van Gogh exhibit of portraits. These were paintings to be felt as well as seen. Vincent's love for these simple folk illuminated the canvases and charcoal sketches. And the self portraits - the piercing look that was always in his eye, and the swirls of energy all around his head...whew! I bought a cd called "Van Gogh Face to Face - A Portrait in Music" in the museum gift shop so that I'd have something to listen to on my cd player in the plane. This had a number of Dutch classical works and folk music, then French dance hall and Impressionistic music, to reflect musically the time and sensations of Vincent's roots and later full flowering. I wanted to share with you folks some of the liner notes, without too much comment, as I think you'll understand the intent in regards to Joni. "After the death of his father in 1885, van Gogh went to Antwerp, where he studied the bright color of Rubens in the city's museums and churches. He went so far as to try to establish a direct relationship between color and music - and even took piano lessons, crying out Prussian blue! or chrome yellow! as he struck each chord." Later, after awhile in Paris, visiting studios and cafes "Vincent and Theo went to several concerts in those early days"..van Gogh noted, "In a picture I want to say something comforting in a way that music is comforting. In the end we shall have had enough of cynicism and skepticism and humbug, and we shall want to live more musically...By intensifying all the colors, one arrives again at quietude and harmony" I really wonder what he'd think of Turbulent Indigo, now ;=) A final excerpt that neatly mirrors something Joni said at a concert - I think on Miles of Aisles? He wrote "We painters are always asked to 'compose' ourselves and be nothing but composers...in the music it isn't like that, and if some person or other plays Beethoven, he adds his personal interpretation; in music and especially singing, the interpretation of a composer is something, and it is not a hard and fast rule that only a composer should play his own composition" Anyway, (NJC from here on) I want to thank you folks for your playing and singing, and for letting me sit in with so much of your fine musician-ing at Topsfield. I've gotten a lot of nice comments on my mando playing, and that can be a great ego stroke for one so much in awe of ...(BillMonroeDavidGrismanSamBushDaveAppolonJethroBurnsPeterOstroushko... and oh yes that anonymous Russian balalaika player on that old 78 on the C.C.C.P. label)...so thanks for that too. It was a nice break with many special moments, before zooming back to my new job in yes, a high tech pre-IPO in the very guts of Silicon Vally, down the street from NetScape for chrissakes! Thinking of all of you, and especially hoping that those hit with that mosquito borne you-know-what are fully and happily recovered. Love Steve Mixon **Les, my first try at sending this didn't post for some reason. Ah, technology...* It's been a hectic couple of weeks since Topsfield. Started my new job in Silicon Valley (went to a fantastic Richard Thompson concert on the first day) - my days a blur of commuting to a faraway place where the money's greener. Went to a barbecue yesterday though, and got out the mando again, not having touched it since MA; played some hillbilly tunes with the band there. Couldn't help thinking of y'all and the nice times playing with you. And, I did want to say thank you kindly for your nice comments on my playing. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:11:32 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter of our time? > > The Guys: > > Dylan > Smokey Robinson > Willy Dixon > Paul Simon > Curtis Mayfield > > Who else? why definately, Neil Young who continues to put out incredible material even today... Victor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:22:51 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Ludwig's Tune I've been meaning to write this post since the "Both Sides Now" tour and am finally getting around to it. I noticed that during the performance of "Ludwig's Tune," (during the 2000 tour) Joni sang, "...like the feel of a warm, warm body, loving your touch." Any thoughts on why she changed the lyric from "like the song of a warm, warm body, loving your touch.?" At Topsfield I had the awesome pleasure of singing "Ludwig's Tune" with Victor Johnson on keyboard - a humbling experience to say the least - thank you Victor for inviting me to accompany you and for encouraging me to be spontaneous and conquer my fears. Victor, you are a talented gentleman and a friend of spirit. Leslie M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:25:38 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter of our time? > why definately, Neil Young who continues to put out >incredible material even today... > > Victor Victor, I'm convinced you ARE Neil Young ;-) Kakki, who adds Jimmy Webb and James Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:50:16 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Ludwig's Tune > At Topsfield I had the awesome pleasure of singing >"Ludwig's Tune" with Victor Johnson on keyboard - a >humbling experience to say the least - thank you Victor for >inviting me to accompany you and for encouraging me to be >spontaneous and conquer my fears. Leslie, you and Victor were awesome on this one. There was something truly magical happening during your performance. I'm glad I was there to experience it. > Victor, you are a talented gentleman and a friend of spirit. Amen and amen to that. Kakki, first president of Victor's SoCal Fan Club ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 02:29:00 EDT From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: is joni the best song writer?? I definitely think she is up to par with Dylan. No one else in my opinon can be so succinct and colorful in their lyrics. But not to undermine others. I think she isnt as recognized as Dylan because.. people relate Dylan to "rebellious rock 'n' roll" i.e. Newport Folk Festival '65, etc. And he has more Anthemic songs.. and I guess alot of people exposed mainly to male-dominated rock/folk, etc think that to be Great you have to be rebellious and anthemic.. but Joni IS both.. Paprika plains is anthemic in a way, also Both sides now, Big yellow taxi, Just some people dont understand. And when i say male-dominated rock, etc.. IN no way am i assuming that Joni is a female singer-songwriter.. because that is pure bullshit.. To say she is a female singer songwriter assumes that males are above females in that category.. it is also like saying the term "White trash" which proposes that all regular trash are those not white. But, in my opinon .. some of the great singer-songwriters in the last 50 or so years: Joni mitchell Bobby Dylan Leonard Cohen Frank Zappa Kate Bush Tom Waits Paul Simon Laura Nyro George Clinton and the list could go on forever and ever.. like Neil young has a plethora of great material.. and that is all i can think of ..at this late hour. take care all. Blair F NP:crickets chirping in the quiet Northern Delawarean nightscape _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 02:30:42 EDT From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: is joni the best songwriter..etc.. AANd damnit.. Marvin Gaye.. i forgot about him.. how i could.. i dont know how..but anywaysn.. :) blair _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #371 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?