From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #369 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, September 17 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 369 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter there is? ["gene mock" ] Re: A Joni Moment [Deb Messling ] Re: Pre-quel in Richard's house [B Merrill ] RE: Pre-quel in Richard's house [B Merrill ] Re: A Joni Moment [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Neil Diamond tribute band [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re:Joni tatoo's [FMYFL@aol.com] Harry's couch [B Merrill ] JCC [m.harmssen@t-online.de (m.harmssen)] Re: Re:Joni tatoo's [Murphycopy@aol.com] RE: Prequel in Richard's house ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: Re:Joni tatoo's ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Joni tatoo's [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni tatoo's [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Joni tatoo's [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Pre-quel in Richard's house [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni tatoo's [FMYFL@aol.com] RE: Pre-quel in Richard's house ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Yellow Checkers and The Yellow Wallpaper [Frances Liccione ] Re: Yellow Checkers and The Yellow Wallpaper [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Pre-quel in Richard's house [MGVal@aol.com] Re: A Joni Moment ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni tatoo's [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: Joni tatoo's (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: A Joni Moment ["mags woman" ] Re: A Joni Moment [Siresorrow@aol.com] Foni Mitchell - UK Joni tribute band [Fonimitchell@aol.com] Nietzche's nickname ["Patrick Willoughby" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 00:21:13 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter there is? that's why i'm on this list. not only that, she has the best looking and the most erudite fans in this dimension. have a good day folks. gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 10:45 PM Subject: Is Joni the best singer/songwriter there is? > > > Does everyone here think that Joni is THE best singer/songwriter there > is and ever has been?I know she herself thinks she's among the best in the > world.I only wish she wrote less love songs and more songs about other > subjects. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 05:44:32 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Pre-quel to Harry's House What about Cherokee Louise? She meets all three criteria. >--- Anne Sandstrom wrote: > > I can't think > > of any song of hers about a woman who's living in > > poverty, a woman who's > > abused, or a woman who is vastly different in age > > from Joni at the time she > > wrote the song/created the character. Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~I like cats. They give the home a heartbeat. / Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 05:50:32 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: A Joni Moment I heard "Circle Game" in the supermarket yesterday. Whenever I hear Joni in the supermarket, I always feel compelled to sing along, in hopes of drawing attention to the fact that hey, that's Joni Mitchell they're playing! But no one ever notices Joni, they just look at me like I'm strange. Is it just me, or do other people act this weird? Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~I like cats. They give the home a heartbeat. / Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:06:14 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: Pre-quel in Richard's house Jamie Z. says: >But The Arrangement and Harry's House and THOSL are all of a similar theme: >a successful man, living the high life and having personal problems with >their wives. The Arrangement was written for a film of the same name >starring Kirk Douglas. Is it on the soundtrack?? And according to Chaka Khan, THOSL is about Jose >Feliciano... apparently. Wow! Can you tell us anymore about that attribution? - --But then how could Jose patrol his borders? Or am I being too picky? Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:52:25 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: RE: Pre-quel in Richard's house Well that's interesting, Mary. You assume that what Harry can do with his take home pay is to "shove it." I'd assumed that what she wants to do with the house and $ is to upgrade her living room, for the nth time. To fight her anger over the feeling that nothing's any good," with more materialism. If she were beyond materialism, then she wouldn't be yelling: "Get off of that thing!" She still loves her things...., and she doesn't understand her situation. Whereas you find that she has broken free, at least in attitude, even if she isn't out the door. And please see my comment below... >And back to MG's original post for a moment: my reading of "Harry's House" >is just the opposite of hers. That song, as a perceptive lister whose name >I can't recall once pointed out, is in some ways the mirror opposite of "The >Hissing of Summer Lawns." The wife in HH may have started out looking for >"climbing ivy for the bath" and combing _House and Garden_ for decorating >ideas, but by the end of the song, she's seen the light, renounced shallow >materialism, and told Harry "just what he could do with Harry's house and >Harry's take-home pay." > >Mary P. >--Agreeing with MG, though, insofar as Joni's portrayal of women as greedy, >materialistic, and demanding has been fairly consistent over the years, and >has made me feel uneasy. But Joni is herself materialistic, in her own Joni way! She may not be married, but she loves her LA bijou house and her big pool! Even if she doesn't have a trophy husband, as Harry scooped up his sexy "trophy wife," shining as she came out of the pool, Joni's got her trophy house. And I bet you won't find her yelling "Nothing's any good!" in her living room. Isn't that her house on the cover, on display? She shows it off to us. I'm jungle green with envy. Bruce M ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:02:25 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A Joni Moment << But no one ever notices Joni, they just look at me like I'm strange. Is it just me, or do other people act this weird? >> It's certainly not just you, Deb...I sing Joni all the time, in the supermarket, or especially at work in fron of the copy machine...I'm sure people think I'm weird, but so what? We ARE weird, but it's a great kind of weird! :~) Bob NP: Steely Dan, "Monkey In Your Soul" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:13:46 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Neil Diamond tribute band << It's terrible the critisism Neil Diamond and the "Sound of music" recieve. >> Well, I've never heard The Sound of Music get trashed (and it certainly never happened in my childhood home where the Holy Trinity was Rodgers, Hart, & Hammerstein with the Archangel Gershwin), but now Neil Diamond...different story. The guy wrote a couple good songs and a bunch of really crappy ones. Who can forget his spell-binding lyrics: "No one heard at all not even the chair" "Songs she sang to me, songs she brang to me" Anyway, I don't want to get too offensive about him, Relayer...he's not my cup of tea, but you obviously dig him and that's very cool indeed. Besides, he wrote one of my fave pop songs, "I'm A Believer"... And, also in Neil's favor, he loves Joni! He's covered Both Sides Now, Chelsea Morning, Free Man In Paris, all in his over-the-top dramatic style. Plus, he was invited to The Band's historic "Last Waltz" show, so he gets some "uber-cool" points for that as well, even if he stood out like a throbbing bloody thumb...;~) Bob NP: The Dan, "Peg" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:24:12 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re:Joni tatoo's Bob writes : << Hey, there's an idea! If you were going to get a Joni tatoo (or maybe some of you have one already), what would it be & where? >> If I were to get a Joni tatoo, it would be "Willy" but I'm not going to tell you where I'd put it :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:47:49 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Harry's couch >> The real reason he >> took off is because Joni tossed him out the door after he'd sprayed her >> couch one too many times. Joni loves her couch almost as much as Mrs. Harry loves hers. In fact, wasn't her bijou interior featured in "Architectural Digest"? So let's not suppose that Joni is beyond materialism. But she also has other interests as well, thank goodness. She tells us this duality in "Boho Dance." Bruce (whose house interior might be featured in "Architectural Indigestibles") ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:45:41 +0200 From: m.harmssen@t-online.de (m.harmssen) Subject: JCC which means the first "c" of course stands for cats................. so finally here I am on the other side of the pond in good ol'Germany getting the hot news on JONI's cats, isn't it romantic ? so it's the JONIMITCHELLCATSDISCUSSIONLIST awrite - it gives my home a heartbeat indeed yesssssss sssssirayyyyyyyyyy :-) catloving michael m.harmssen@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:01:18 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re:Joni tatoo's In a message dated 9/16/00 10:29:39 AM, FMYFL@aol.com writes: << If I were to get a Joni tatoo, it would be "Willy" but I'm not going to tell you where I'd put it :~) >> If your tattoo is going where I think it is, Jimmy, have you considered a one with the word "pachyderm" instead? Or is that too many letters? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:04:48 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: Prequel in Richard's house Jamie Zoob wrote: "I have always seen TLTISR as really quite autobiographical. She saw Richard in a cafe in Detroit and he had turned cynical and bitter while she was 'full of moon' and romance. And she saw him as someone who was domesticated and has taken the easy life. Easy but by comparison, a little mundane. His life is now full of percolators and dish-washers. Hers is still full of moon. But in an interesting twist to the tale, she admits herself that she is just a hopeless romantic and is doing exactly what he has just accused her of being - a sad romantic sitting in cafes, drinking her sorrows away. But The Arrangement and Harry's House and THOSL are all of a similar theme: a successful man, living the high life and having personal problems with their wives." Jamie: I don't disagree with any of this. In fact, I remember reading somewhere, perhaps even on this list, that the original for "Richard" was none other than Chuck Mitchell. Still, I do see links between Richard's "domestication" and opting for a life that isn't truly alive emotionally and the behavior of the men in the other songs you mention. And his material gifts to his wife, regardless of whether she is demanding them or he simply feels compelled to give them, seem closely related to his empty life in Joni's recounting of the tale. Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:13:50 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Re:Joni tatoo's > << Hey, there's an idea! If you were going to get a Joni tatoo (or maybe some > of > you have one already), what would it be & where? >> We could all get J-O-N-I tattooed on the tops of our fingers on one hand, just like the old O-Z-Z-Y one that Ozzy Osbourne always had. Then people would really think we were weird! Victor NP: grumbling stomach that just woke up not long and needs to be fed but still remembers how delicious that homemade granola was at Ashara's house along with Martinelli sparkling apple cider. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:56:25 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni tatoo's << If I were to get a Joni tatoo, it would be "Willy" but I'm not going to tell you where I'd put it :~) >> You may want to pick "Little Green" instead, Jimmy! :~D Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:13:55 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni tatoo's Hey, I never had any of the martinelli apple cider :~(. shucks But I did have one of Kakki's martinis, and I have to admit that I couldn't finish it. Simon managed to finish his though. fast too. eweee.... Rose in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:45:15 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni tatoo's I previously wrote: << << If I were to get a Joni tatoo, it would be "Willy" but I'm not going to tell you where I'd put it :~) >> and the Smurf Bob wrote: < If your tattoo is going where I think it is, Jimmy, have you considered a one with the word "pachyderm" instead? Or is that too many letters? > No Mr. Murphy, if I was going that route I would have to use the greek term of "pachydermus" in all CAPS :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:45:16 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Pre-quel in Richard's house In a message dated 09/16/2000 8:58:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, merrillb@crisny.org writes: << Well that's interesting, Mary. You assume that what Harry can do with his take home pay is to "shove it." I'd assumed that what she wants to do with the house and $ is to upgrade her living room, for the nth time. To fight her anger over the feeling that nothing's any good," with more materialism. >> My interpretation, similarly, is that Harry's wife thinks his "take home pay" is not enough for her to put up with being closed in with the home, the kids and only her memories of better days. "Nothin's any good" means to me she wishes he was more successful so she could replace the sofa, hire a maid and a nanny and get out of the house, probably to have an affair. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:51:16 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni tatoo's << << If I were to get a Joni tatoo, it would be "Willy" but I'm not going to tell you where I'd put it :~) >> and the smart ass Bob wrote: > That's only because at Jonifest you snuck in my hotel room Mr. Muller, and I caught "A Case of You" :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:14:50 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: Pre-quel in Richard's house Paul I writes, responding to Bruce: "My interpretation, similarly, is that Harry's wife thinks his "take home pay" is not enough for her to put up with being closed in with the home, the kids and only her memories of better days. "Nothin's any good" means to me she wishes he was more successful so she could replace the sofa, hire a maid and a nanny and get out of the house, probably to have an affair. Paul I" Well, I'm looking at this song in a whole new way now! I admit that I never interpreted the wife's attitude as anything other than "take this job and shove it--I'm leaving." I can see how the other interpretations are possible. But then, what do you do with the confrontrative nature of the wife's message to Harry: "Shining hair and shining skin, Shining as she reeled him in, To tell him as she did today, Just what he could do with Harry's house And Harry's take-home pay." First, If she's been deciding all along how the paycheck should be put into the house, why would today be any different? Why would the line read "just what *he* could do"? Second, while the most literal reading of "reeled him in" is that he's being lured into something he doesn't want, the phrase also suggests "reeling," as from an unexpected and unpleasant confrontation. Third, the "nothing's any good"/"get down offa there" juxtaposition of the previous verse expresses frustration, and perhaps the growing realization that the picture-perfect surroundings are not a nurturing environment for growing kids, or for the wife herself, either. You can't explore your environment or take much of a risk if you're "paper[ing] the wall to keep your gut reactions hid," or worrying about messing up the sofa. Finally, to me, the phrasing "just what he could do" does most strongly suggest the "shove it" interpretation. Mary P. - - ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 00 12:03:02 PDT From: Frances Liccione Subject: Yellow Checkers and The Yellow Wallpaper Was reading a previous post and thought I'd offer my opinion on that lyric: "Yellow checkers for the kitchen Climbing ivy for the bath She is lost in House and Gardens He's caught up in chief of staff" In college I read Charlotte Perkins Gilman's "The Yellow Wallpaper", put out by an independent feminist press. This book immediately comes to mind when I hear this song. It's about a woman who suffers severe depression because she is trapped in her home, a housewife, not by her own choosing, however. She has yellow wallpaper and the book is about that...in that, she studies the paper and describes her depression using the paper as a metaphor. It is quite good and I think represents the theme of the song. What do you think? ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:12:06 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: A Joni Moment > I heard "Circle Game" in the supermarket yesterday. Whenever I hear Joni > in the supermarket, I always feel compelled to sing along, in hopes of > drawing attention to the fact that hey, that's Joni Mitchell they're > playing! But no one ever notices Joni, they just look at me like I'm > strange. Is it just me, or do other people act this weird? > I do this all the time. And no, it doesn't work. People don't seem to notice at all. I say 'Joni moment' to Travis. He says 'What?' I say 'They're playing Joni!' He says, 'That's nice dear. Be sure and tell the Joni people about it.' And then I always forget to post about it! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:44:47 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Yellow Checkers and The Yellow Wallpaper In a message dated 09/16/2000 3:07:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, teltrans@netscape.net writes: << t's about a woman who suffers severe depression because she is trapped in her home, a housewife, not by her own choosing, however. She has yellow wallpaper and the book is about that...in that, she studies the paper and describes her depression using the paper as a metaphor. It is quite good and I think represents the theme of the song. What do you think? >> I think it's a cop-out to say it wasn't of her own choosing. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:00:13 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Pre-quel in Richard's house From Mary after a bunch o' views: << Well, I'm looking at this song in a whole new way now! >> 1. That's one thing that I like about this list. It's not only the songs that I end up looking at in a whole new way, often it's ideas and people as well. 2. For me, this song has always reminded me of that book: "Diary of a Mad Housewife," with the roles reversed and the female being the pusher for keeping up with the bones....er....ahhh... I mean Jones. (stuck too long reading the Bob's tattoo quipping...) 3. And going back to the female role thing in Joni's songs, although she does do a lot more, I think that she tends to cast the men as victims or guys who WANT to be better, but are push, molded or otherwise led astray by the conniving female. That's it for now. My turn for weekend fun..... MG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:01:59 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: A Joni Moment One night last year in Trader Joe's here they were playing the actual WTRF album on an excellent sound system. I noticed at least two other people in the store besides myself start singing along in a sort of mumbling, shy way. I had another cute Joni moment in a small, artsy soul food/Cajun restaurant here right after Joni's L.A. show. I was trying to explain to my non-Joni exposed friend how awesome the show was when two guys came in with guitars and some small amps and mics. They set up and the first song they played was Both Sides Now. Even my non-Joni friend caught that one. Of course, I was like going "see it's a sign!" However, the rest of the music they played was a very Muzak-ish kind of jazzy pop - elevator music. Nonetheless, as we were leaving I went over and thanked them for the Joni content. They stopped in their tracks and raved on about Joni. As we were going out the door, they were striking up Big Yellow Taxi ;-) Kakki, permanently tatoo-less but has been known to braid flowers in her hair NP: Stephen Bishop - Little Italy (with help from Larry Carlton, Vic Feldman, Chaka Khan, John Guerin and Max Bennett) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:27:14 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni tatoo's In a message dated 9/16/00 1:55:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FMYFL@aol.com writes: << That's only because at Jonifest you snuck in my hotel room Mr. Muller, and I caught "A Case of You" :~) >> so bob....how many people did you actually touch tongues with on that trip? or is this about drinking too much and ...well....turning green? i'm confused how a boom boom pachyderm falls into the category of little green. or....would y'all rather keep it a secret? patrick np. court and spark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:00:56 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni tatoo's (md) OK I guess I have to rat on ol Bob....when we were in New Orleans Bob revealed a personal secret to me that at one point in his life he was in the army and got real drunk and went to a tatoo parlor and had the words "Welcome to Puerto Vallarta and Have a Nice Day" put on his private parts. So I guess that clears that up. marcel np. "Duets" Marylin Manson and Placido Domingo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:27:52 EDT From: "mags woman" Subject: Re: A Joni Moment yea we ARE weird and thats a good thing!!! I am proud of it...thats why 'we' are we... Mags... home from a much toooo long day at work. np: 45 Years Stan Roger, Home in Halifax ;) >From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com >Reply-To: SCJoniGuy@aol.com >To: messling@enter.net, joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: A Joni Moment >Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:02:25 EDT > ><< But no one ever notices Joni, they just look at me like I'm > strange. Is it just me, or do other people act this weird? >> > >It's certainly not just you, Deb...I sing Joni all the time, in the >supermarket, or especially at work in fron of the copy machine...I'm sure >people think I'm weird, but so what? We ARE weird, but it's a great kind of >weird! :~) > >Bob > >NP: Steely Dan, "Monkey In Your Soul" _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:32:15 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: A Joni Moment In a message dated 9/16/00 3:17:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << I say 'Joni moment' to Travis. He says 'What?' I say 'They're playing Joni!' >> i had one the other day in CVS. it was a little surreal in that i heard the song but couldn't recognize what it was...only that i knew it was out of place in a cvs and that it was something i listen to in my office. so i stopped and told my son, do you hear that...and he said....yes...it's joni mitchell. and the song was....shit i forget the exact title, but that doesn't mean i don't know the song...anyway it was...why don't you stop or why don't we stop...or something with STOP in it. it is interesting to hear something out of it's natural place and not fully recognize it. like seeing someone you know in a foreign land. it's like...hey...i know you...what are you doing here? patrick np. dogs barking. woowoowoo...woof... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:16:33 EDT From: Fonimitchell@aol.com Subject: Foni Mitchell - UK Joni tribute band Hi everybody. I'd like to tell you all about our band - "Foni Mitchell." We are a 5 piece band based in Birmingham, England. We play exclusively Joni songs, mostly her earlier work, and our aims are (i) to keep her music alive on this side of the Atlantic (ii) to give people a chance to spend an evening listening to Joni music played live and (iii) to have lots of fun doing it. Our line-up is : Jo Rafferty lead vocals, guitar Ella Wright vocals, keyboards Paul Witcomb guitars, mandola Clive Witcomb bass guitar, acoustic guitar Tony Dwyer drums, percussion We would love to hear from you at fonimitchell@aol.com with any thoughts, suggestions, or just encouragement from like-Joni-minded people. Please get in touch - especially if we could come and play for you! Very best wishes, Foni Mitchell. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:58:25 -0700 From: "Patrick Willoughby" Subject: Nietzche's nickname My understanding is that "Man from Mars" is Don Freed's nickname for Nietzche. Jeez, I should get a life, I remember too many of these little details, although I often get them wrong Patrick in Vancouver (as opposed to the other Patrick from I don't know where...) ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #369 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?