From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #364 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, September 12 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 364 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Rose's JoniFest Pictures [Leslie Mixon ] Re: Nieteszche..(EN-JAY-CEE) (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] From Brett Code [AsharaJM@aol.com] (no subject) [Gardongurl@aol.com] Re: (no subject) [Mark Domyancich ] Freud, Jung, Marx (SJC) [CarltonCT@aol.com] Wonderful Jonifest & NEW ?? Joni Book ( no Freud Content) ["Steve" ] Re: happiness (EN-JAY-CEE) (md) [B Merrill ] Jonatha purchases.. ["Christopher J. Treacy" ] NYC consumer alert [PPeterson4@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 06:45:45 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Rose's JoniFest Pictures Rose, thank you for posting all those photos to Photo Island - it was great bringing back all those fine moments. One thought I had was selling the two group shots - Plum Island and inside the church, as a fundraiser. Maybe we can hire a sound person/roadie next year, so that Chuck E. and Michael don't have to work so hard... Any thoughts on this idea? By the way, I'm right there with Bob and Heather regarding a reluctance to say good-bye. The good-byes at Topsfield came much too soon after the hellos.... Leslie M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:07:15 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Nieteszche..(EN-JAY-CEE) (md) In a message dated 9/9/00 8:18:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: << I know a person who has spent considerable time in contemplative retreat as a Buddhist monk who still stumbles on in one of the worst passive-agressive relationships I have ever seen. I know others who haven't cracked open a book since high school and live lives of supreme love and content. >> Having hundreds of clients that you get to know personally if not intimately I can say for a fact that in my experience there are two simple commonalities that I see in the "happiest" people that I know. One is that they are realists. Unhappy people are almost always in some form of denial about themselves and the world. Some cause most if not all of their own problems with cockamamie ways of assuming the world works. From big things to little things. The unrealists genrally are utopian in nature in that they believe the world should work the way they think it should rather than the way it actually does. The second is that they dont sweat the small stuff, expect frustration in all the little things in life and are willing to change their thinking if presented better evidence than that which supports their original view. If there is a third thing it is that they never "retire" they continue to seek growth and fulfillment out of life. If there is a fourth it is that they trust in a spiritual being because they know as prehistoric man knew that something is needed to provide hope to control all those things that we are unable to control like luck and miracles. When I have had an unhappy friend or associate who is always unhappy I tell them to go to a church, any church and pray for wisdom, enlightenment, or luck. The ones that do invariably snap out of whatever they were in. The ones that dont, dont. When I was in college Neitsche was all the rage and virtually everyone who was really into him was depressed as hell., listened to Mahler, and contemplated suicide. Wow, how uplifting I said. Pass on that. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:22:35 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: From Brett Code Brett asked me to forward this message on to you. Brett, I will hold you to that "hope!" :-) - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [JoniMitchellfans] The Pictures are UP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 16:13:18 +0000 From: Brett Code To: JoniMitchellfans@egroups.com CC: joni@smoe.org, laborday2000@egroups.com References: <68.71d3717.26e91808@aol.com> >From Ghana, let me say, that the photos created great envy. I wish I could have been there. Having seen the pictures, I now want to hear the music that was causing the smiles, the dancing, the fun. You guys are really something! Since I am coming home soon, I hope to be at the next Jonifest. Your long lost friend, Brett Code ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:23:06 EDT From: Gardongurl@aol.com Subject: (no subject) For the third time, please remove my name from this list!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:17:07 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: (no subject) It says it all right here... From: Gardongurl@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:23:06 EDT Subject: (no subject) To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Reply-To: Gardongurl@aol.com Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com - ------>>>> Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe For the third time, please remove my name from this list!! At 11:23 AM -0400 9/11/00, Gardongurl@aol.com wrote: >For the third time, please remove my name from this list!! - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ "Close it yourself, shitty!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:27:55 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Freud, Jung, Marx (SJC) I wasn't living in Vienna in Freud's time and never knew him personally, but I've read several biographies of him. So what I offer is only what I've read which can certainly be erroneous. Freud was always viewed by his colleagues as highly disciplined, a faultless bourgeois. He was much loved by his family and his children considered him a good father. It is largely believed he was sexually faithful to his one and only wife, though Jung (never a monogamist himself) speculated that Freud's real emotional attachment was to his sister-in-law. I have never read any accounts of Freud which describe him as having anything less than a normal, stable childhood with parents who recognized their son had great mental gifts and a belief that he would have an impact on medical history. His father was a wool merchant and a non-religious Jew. The Freud's were a modern Viennese family who were fairly assimilated into Gentile society. Some of Freud's early writings reflect some resentment on the prejudices of the society he grew up in which had an institutionalized anti-Semitism which may have been the one thing that festered inside of him, quite understandably. As a child, he identified with the Semitic Hannibal in his brave attempt to invade and squash the Roman expansionists in their own capitol. Throughout his life, Freud would witness the rise and empowerment of anti-Semitic organizations which were the precursors to the Nazis who would force him to flee his own nation near the end of his life. In the face of so much unfair prejudice, Freud distinguished himself as a neurologist and under the influence of his mentor, Josef Breuer, he developed the "talking cure" which would lead to the development of modern psychoanalysis. One of his greatest gifts to the modern world was his courageous uncovering of what hadeud's discussion of taboo matters, particularly sexual subject matter, makes him one of the great liberators of human history. He was not incorrect in his assumption that most of what was called "hysteria" at the turn of the century was the outward manifestation of repressed sexual impulses. Though Freud cannot be credited with the theory of the unconscious (often erroneously referred to as the subconscious) he elaborated and expanded upon this idea. Sigmund Freud was one of the four great geniuses of the last two centuries, the other three being Einstein, Darwin and Marx. The Sexual Revolution and the Women's Liberation movement would never have happened without Freud. He paved the way for open discussion of homosexuality which previously "did not dare to speak its name." Some of the psychoanalysts he trained were women, including his daughter and Lou Andreas-Salome. Though women were a mystery to him (as they are to most men) he had a firm belief in their intellectual equality and he also made an honest attempt to understand them. I believe it very likely that Freud was in error when he assumed that the accounts of incestuous abuse by some of his female patients were only fantasies as we know the sad truth today, but I think Freud could not personally imagine himself doing something so damaging and so he was blinded to this terrible inclination in others. Sigmund was just a human who apparently wrote under the influence of cocaine, and in the end he couldn't possibly be right about everything. I am very skeptical about the merits of formal psychotherapy and psychoanalysis in particular, but Freud was one of the great thinkers and discoverers of this or any century and we are indebted to him for bringing us out of the Victorian dark on so many, many matters. Jung's thinking used to be of greater interest to me, but it was precisely his weakness for mysticism which diminished him as a genuine scientist. At first Jung was more interested in the psychological root of occult systems like astrology, the Tarot and the I Ching, but later he was actually casting horoscopes for his patients and evolving a belief system which came to be more like a new religion. Regardless, he made a great contribution in his recognition of the universal unconscious and its archetypes. Much of his psychology concerning dream theory and personality formation still have some scientific or theoretical validity. He was all too silent about the rise of the Nazis in the Thirties and Forties and only criticized them after the War was over. We should all thank Karl Marx for his invaluable contributions to advances in human society. Tyrants like Stalin and Mao Zedong may have outwardly embraced Marxism in order to indulge their own power lusts and justify their horrendous genocides, but Marx and other critics essentially promoted the idea of common-ism which has the same ideals as those of religious elders like Jesus Christ, St. Francis or Mohammed. Without Marx, industrialists would still be exploiting child labor for 12 hours a day. Without Marx, there wouldn't have been the modern labor movement in America which essentially demanded fair pay for fair work. Don't forget that American labor unions were formed by Marxists and originally attacked for being un-American. Communism was not something which imposed an unfair, totalitarian state on Russians. Only a decade before the Communists rise to power, most of the Russian people were living as unliberated serfs. Russia was a corrupt, chaotic place before the Communists, it was corrupt and chaotic under the Communists, and it remains corrupt and chaotic after the Communists. As Orwell pointed out, the systems didn't really change in Russia or China, just the faces of those in power. At the moment, Putin is little more than an elected monarch still ruling a ridiculously vast country in an ill-adapted central government just as the Czar was doing a hundred years ago. Marx probably was a total shit to his family, but there is nothing evil in his essential call for fairness in labor practices. His recognition of the idea that all men are equal is quintessentially American. More importantly, Marx's real message is forgotten. His greater complaint about the capitalist system was the reduction of laborers into something less than human -- as mere components in the mechanism of manufacturing, people reduced from full expressions of humanity into cogs, springs, hammers. Much of what Marx had to teach us has been absorbed and that's why American laborers get to drive their own cars to work from decent housing, and get to take vacations and send their own children to college. Capitalism in the West wouldn't have been modified and humanized if an alternate system were not attempted and offered as a competing system. And as for Marcel's accusation that Clinton is a rapist, please.... This man would not be president if that were the case. Yes, he is a sexual philanderer but it apparently all happened between himself and some very consenting adults. Marcel, that's just more of your Libertarian sensationalism. Clinton is one of the greatest presidents we have ever had, a great manager who has thoughtfully presided over eight years of economic expansion, world peace, declining crime, rising test scores in school, etc. etc. He is a skillful politician who made the kinds of compromises which largely have the welfare of the majority in mind. It's always a mistake to expect perfection in the behavior of any human being - -- it's seldom a justification for discrediting their thoughts and ideas and accomplishments. Should we reject all of Joni Mitchell's music because of her chain smoking and her inability to sustain a happy, healthy long term relationship? Stirring things up, Clark NP: Beck - Odelay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:09:59 +0100 From: "Steve" Subject: Wonderful Jonifest & NEW ?? Joni Book ( no Freud Content) Hi Jonilovers, I am green with envy ! The photos of Ashara's Jonifest are wonderful, but the individual posts are so personal and speak of many collective memories and private moments caught, and remembered for the benefit of sharing with us all. It is amazing that almost 10% of the list members managed to attend, it speaks volumes for the important role that Joni's music has played in all our lives. On behalf af all of us out here in Joniland A BIG THANK YOU ONE AND ALL I've mentioned to a few Joniphiles offlist about a book I picked up recently ( assuming that everyone knew about it) and they have suggested I post the details as it may not be widely available or known to the Joni-community. The book is titled "Paved Paradise" by Paul Barrera It was first published Oct 1998 by Agenda Ltd, UK It is a 128page paperback which appears to be part of a series on other artists. It comprises a very short introduction( 3 pages) and then a Chapter per Album breakdown of Joni's musical releases from "Seagull" to " Taming the Tiger". Although I personally don't like the concept of reading someone elses interpretations of Joni's work. In the abscence of much else I took it at face value .................. After all I thought the dreaded Hinton book was a good read. The publishers print on the back page that the book is available for £6.99 direct from "Agenda Limited, Units 1 & 2, Ludgershall Business Park, New Drove, Ludgershall, Andover, Hampshire, UK, SP11 9RN. Payment by Cheques-Eurocheques-Bank Drafts and registered cash, only in pounds Sterling. Postage Free in the UK/EEC, for ROW add £1.50 for each copy. Cheques payable to Agenda Ltd, sorry no credit cards." If anyone outwith the UK who wants a copy has difficulty getting one, drop me a line offlist and I'm sure I'll organise something. Steve.......the Impossible Dreamer NP Hejira...August 15th 1998 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:58:21 EDT From: Jamurphymusic@aol.com Subject: Re: unsubscribe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:03:26 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Wonderful Jonifest & NEW ?? Joni Book ( no Freud Content) <> Steve, that book was at Ashara's, and I managed to thumb through it a bit on Saturday morning. It's certainly not any kind of definitive authority, but it's always fun to read anything about trivia or interpretations of Joni's songs. I'll pick up a copy sometime... Bob NP: P.M. Dawn, "Soncheynne" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:24:44 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Freud, Jung, Marx (SJC) > I have never read any accounts of Freud > which describe him as having anything less than a normal, stable childhood > with parents I can't imagine why he would write to Fliess about his father abusing him if it wasn't true. > > > I believe it very likely that Freud was in error when he assumed that the > accounts of incestuous abuse by some of his female patients were only > fantasies as we know the sad truth today, but I think Freud could not > personally imagine himself doing something so damaging and so he was blinded > to this terrible inclination in others. Re the letter to Fliess-it makes his rejection of this more understandable. > I am very skeptical about the merits of > formal psychotherapy 5 years of psychotherapy gave me my selfhood and a life well worth living. Prior to that life was something I endured. We should all thank Karl Marx for his invaluable contributions to advances in I found the rest or your post really intersting and thanks for writing it. A couple of Americans I corrrespond with are horrified at the thought that Bush will win. My friends say this will be the death of any equal rigths for women and gays and abortion will become illegal again etc. It seems he is backed by the religious right. A nightmare just waiting to happen I guess. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:55:06 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: happiness (EN-JAY-CEE) (md) Happiness invovles this combination of being ready to find happiness in what you have (instead of pining for what you don't)-- but also not resolving to complacency. So you're both finding happiness and actively looking & struggling towards it. There's a paradox in here, that makes it difficult, I suspect. Reflecting on Marcel's indicators, you see that they include both accepting your circumstance: there are ... commonalities >that I see in the "happiest" people that I know. One is that they are >realists. Unhappy people are almost always in some form of denial about >themselves and the world. Some cause most if not all of their own problems >with cockamamie ways of assuming the world works. From big things to little >things. The unrealists genrally are utopian in nature in that they believe >the world should work the way they think it should rather than the way it >actually does. And Yet also progressing foward: If there is a third thing it is that they never "retire" they >continue to seek growth and fulfillment out of life. thanks, Marcel. Bruce M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:05:58 -0400 From: "Christopher J. Treacy" Subject: Jonatha purchases.. The Nickel Chief wrote:"For all of those who have lately waxed romantic over the charms and talents of Jonatha Brooke . . . I've heard astonishingly good things about her, but don't know a note of her music. Where do I start? The live album? Ten Cent Wings?" I would start with The Story's "The Angel in the House" or JB's "Plumb". The live album is wonderful, but I'd go studio first if I were you. Jonatha tends to improvise a bit in her live performances, and it's nice to have a base from which to jump off for that. "Ten Cent Wings" is a decent collection, but my true feeling is that the songs on the 2 options listed have both more harmony and character. Her work as/with "The Story" only produced 2 albums, which are both excellent - 'Angel' is the better of the 2. All, of course, IMHO. Cheers! -Chris. NP:"Underneath the Moon"-Maggie & Terre Roche live at McCabes 8.19.00 ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:15:46 EDT From: PPeterson4@aol.com Subject: NYC consumer alert For those of you in NYC, Tower Records is having a sale on Warner/Electra/Asylum. All Joni's mid-price back catalogue CD's are $7.99 and the full price CD's are $4 off. Also they have a stack of the "candy box" Both Sides Now collector's editions at $39.95. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #364 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?