From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #299 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, July 18 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 299 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Feminism (VLJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] re: Yvette in English [Bolvangar@aol.com] Stain imagery (was re: Yvette in English) [Bolvangar@aol.com] RE: Joni misquoted? ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Joni & Feminism [pat holden ] Re: Feminism (VLJC) [pat holden ] Re: Feminism (VLJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: [RE: Jonis World View] [Lori Reason ] RE: Your Joni photo ["Peg Eves" ] Re: Feminism (VLJC) [pat holden ] re: joni's world view ["c Karma" ] Re:Joni's world view [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Joni's World View [susan+rick ] Hissing as a musical arc, PS [B Merrill ] Hissing as a musical arc [B Merrill ] Re: Hissing as a musical arc, PS [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Snakes & Ladders [Catherine McKay ] Re: Feminism (VLJC) [David Gertler ] Colors a little JC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Colors a little JC [Mark Domyancich ] re: Yvette in English [Catherine McKay ] RE: [RE: Jonis World View] ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Colors a little JC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Yvette in English [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni misquoted? [Catherine McKay ] re: Yvette in English [Matthew Snyder ] Re: Colors a little JC [catman ] RE: Colors a little JC ["Kate Bennett" ] Accordions (VLJC) [leslie@torchsongs.com] Re: Our Joni Photo(VLJC) [RoseMJoy@aol.com] a movie i just rented (sjc) [FMYFL@aol.com] RE: Joni's Viewpoints [Emmy M Burns ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:35:51 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) In a message dated 7/17/00 11:03:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dgertler@concentric.net writes: << You're missing an obvious point. You seem to be saying that benefits extended to gay couples should also be extended to unmarried heterosexual couples. But that's a flawed analogy. If you want your fiancee or girlfriend covered, all you have to do is _marry_ her. Gay couples do not (except in Vermont) have that option. >> I didn't miss it at all. Why should we have to get married to get the same benefits you can gett without getting married. The fact that you cannot marry your partner now becomes irrelevant in light of the special status being accorded you. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:45:57 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: re: Yvette in English blayyl@yahoo.com wrote: <> I thought this was a great, insightful post, and I was just reminded of what it said while listening to "Yvette in English" by the chord on the word "bliss" at the end of each verse. It's an unexpected chord -- a deceptive cadence -- distant from the key of the song, as if something suddenly comes from somewhere outside the song -- somewhere heavenly, perhaps, yet the chord also creates tension and confusion in a way. So in this way I think the music too suggests both the sensual and divine actions of "bliss" in their lives. On another note, I think "Yvette in English" needs a really cheesy oom-pah-pah accordion, for that French cafe sound. We don't have to be smothered in good taste all the time. ;) - --David NP: _Turbulent Indigo_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:59:59 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Stain imagery (was re: Yvette in English) Cathy in Oregon quoted from Joni's early draft of "Yvette in English": <> This quote reminded me of something I've thought about lately listening to Joni's recent albums, that I forget if it's been discussed before: the repeated stain metaphor on _Turbulent Indigo_ -- "In the steaming stains of the Magdalene Laundries"; "I bleed -- for your perversity -- these red words that make a stain...." ("Not to Blame"); "Burgundy nocturne tips and spills/they trot along nicely in the spreading stain" ("Yvette"). Its significance is connected in my mind to the textures in the music throughout TI and (especially) TTT -- the layers of keyboards, the slides of Greg Leisz's pedal steel (on "No Apologies" for instance), the "washes" of VG8 guitar orchestra sounds, bleeding into and through one another. For example, that single high, clear note (that someone, maybe John C., described a while ago) that bleeds into the line "Love takes so much courage...." from the thick chords behind Wayne Shorter's lonely solo in "Facelift." Stains and bleeding is also such a painterly image, of course, it recalls all the painting references and imagery in her recent work (and the phrase "painting with words and music") -- "Bright colors fade away..." (from "Sunny Sunday"); "Turbulent Indigo"; "'If I were a painter,' Picasso said, 'I'd paint this girl from toe to head!'" ("Yvette"); "I'll paint pyrotechnic explosions of your autumn..." ("Love Puts on a New Face"); "I want to paint a picture Botticelli style" ("Only Joy in Town"). - --David P.S. Yesterday I went in Borders and they were playing _Both Sides Now_ all the way through. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 06:38:57 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni misquoted? yes, if i remember it well, joni said that homosexual designers were making women look more like men so that it would be easier for homosexuals to look like women. again, i want to make sure that EVERYBODY understands i'm not accusing joni of anything. it's just that i think that joni is possibly a more conservative person than it might at first seem. so please, stop the private, cowardly flaming. you know who are and you belong in the inquisition. wallyk - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Deb Messling" Para: Enviado: Lunes 17 de Julio de 2000 23:11 Asunto: RE: Joni misquoted? > I remember an interview, circa 1978, in which Joni complained about > homosexual fashion designers who were designing ugly, masculine clothes in > an attempt to make women look foolish. Anyone remember this? I thought it > was in the the bad-hair Rolling Stone interview, but I did a keyword search > on jmdl.com and did not retrieve it. > > > Deb Messling > messling@enter.net > http://www.enter.net/~messling/ > > ~I like cats. They give the home a heartbeat. / Joni Mitchell > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:00:35 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: Joni & Feminism IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/17/00 1:18:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > pholden@iprimus.ca writes: > > << and after much work and writing and research and soul searching into > feminism > and what it means to me, I will say that what I learned is to have a much > softer > approach to our brothers, the men who have also been oppressed by antiquated > systems (patriarchy, capitalism, homophobia to name a few) which hold so > many > of us hostage for who we are , what colour our skin is, what we believe > in....the list goes on. Man hating does not fit into my picture of what > feminism > is. I have grown to love my brothers even more. That said, IMHO, we still > have a > long way to go baby. > >> > > Based on your statement, I would describe you as I would myself and Joni not > as a feminist but as a humanist -- someone who seeks equality and fairness > for ALL humans, regardless of race, national origin , gender or sexual > orientation. > Any term more specific than humanist, in an opinion I think Joni shares > with me, implies that something MORE than equality, such as special favors or > privileges, is sought for that portion of humanity that person, such as a > feminist, is partial to. > > Paul I Paul, For the many people who prescribe to the philosophies of feminism, I would dare say there are just as many individual interpretations and definitions thereof. Some of us wouldnt dare proclaim to be anything remotely feminist for fear of the casting of stones upon our souls. Personally, I do not believe in the utopian dream that equality exists. And I do wonder about those special favours you mention. Mags. > > - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:11:29 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/17/00 4:33:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > myrtlmoo@ticon.net writes: > > << I hear this constantly about gay rights and don't > understand it. Many groups of people fighting for equal rights under the > law are seen as asking for "special rights" just because no one sees the > every day injustices placed on them from society as a whole (and it would > take a whole lot of special rights to ultimately come out "even"). >> > > Then attack and correct the injustices at their core; trying to even them up > with alternative advantages is doomed because it fails to place at a > disadvantage the same group that gains from the original injustices. > > << I think this stems from fear. It's like the bumper sticker says, "If we > give gay > people equal rights, then everyone will want them." >> > > In that vein, if my state allows gay couples to extend insurance and other > benefits to each other, then I should be able to add my fiancee or girlfriend > to MY insurance in the same way. > But to allow gay "civil unions" to benefit while I cannot is an example of > granting an advantage to a special group that neither corrects an injustice > or provides an "equal" status. > > Paul I and Mags responds: the privileges that straight couples benefit from as being part of the "norm" or the "mainstream" outweigh any of the political bread crumbs that gay couples are being thrown these days all in the name of fair/equal rights. When was the last time a straight couple was yelled at for holding hands, kissing, demonstrating their affection for one another in public or otherwise? And that only scratches the surface. Homophobia is so deeply embedded in our society, it becomes a piece of the 'norm'. It manifests itself in many ways. It oozes through each and every pore. In my humble opinion, it is truly sad and twisted to cast stones upon people who love each other and only want the freedom and privilege to do so in peace. Mags - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:42:54 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) In a message dated 7/18/00 7:07:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pholden@iprimus.ca writes: << and Mags responds: the privileges that straight couples benefit from as being part of the "norm" or the "mainstream" outweigh any of the political bread crumbs that gay couples are being thrown these days all in the name of fair/equal rights. When was the last time a straight couple was yelled at for holding hands, kissing, demonstrating their affection for one another in public or otherwise? And that only scratches the surface. Homophobia is so deeply embedded in our society, it becomes a piece of the 'norm'. It manifests itself in many ways. It oozes through each and every pore. In my humble opinion, it is truly sad and twisted to cast stones upon people who love each other and only want the freedom and privilege to do so in peace. >> Sorry, but I consider this neither relevant to the law nor justification for granting special privileges. If I am not casting stones, why should I not get the same benefits as everyone or anyone else? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 00 14:40:55 MET DST From: Lori Reason Subject: Re: [RE: Jonis World View] Hi everybody, It's great to see all these posts on spirituality & dreams, and someone else who loves Native American spirituality. I've been dying to get my hands on my books, but they're still packed in boxes in LA. :-( I'm so glad you came up with this info Kate. A great book - maybe *the* book on this topic - is titled Seven Arrows by Hyemyohsts Storm. The original is out of print, but a new version is available at Amazon.com (for $14.40). Reviews say it should be required reading in all schools to teach children how to live in peace. Can't get a better recommendation than that imo. Here's another one: Classic work that healed an entire generation Seven Arrows, the first book published in modern times about the Medicine Wheels, is now the classic volume on the topic. Written while ceremony was still illegal in the USA and the young generation was heartbroken, this courageous work by Storm brought him into the center of the whirlwind of controversary regarding the practice of Native American Spirituality. Seven Arrows is ground-breaking in many ways. It is a prime example of the oral tradition transformed into narrative prose and it is an entirely new novel form. It is classic Native American literature at its very best and is a must read for students of writing, literature, Native American Studies, and the Earth science and spiritual philosophy of the Medicine Wheels. This book has brought Hyemeyohsts Storm into the circle of truly great 20th century American writers. It has also given renewed hope to hundreds of thousands of people around the world. Joni has believed in and has been reading these kinds of books for years. Sometimes in conversation when I feel passionately about something I just blurt it out without framing it so others can understand what the heck I'm talking about. The older I get the more I do it because it is so ingrained in my way of thinking. I think that's what Joni did. She forgets the rest of the world doesn't read Native American philosophy. And just like with her music, it's hard to keep up with her, she's so far ahead of most of us. Lori in France, dreaming of black crows flying around Chaco Canyon... > Thomas Banyacya, Hopi Elder-- > "The circle with the four O's and cross within [referring to the above > figure] symbolizes the Four Corners Region (where Utah, Colorado, Arizona > and New Mexico meet). The circle represents no beginning and no end -- the > infinite Great Spirit. The Indians believe we are the Fourth World. When the > Third World was destroyed, those Indians who had listened to the prophets > were guided to places of safety underground. After the Fourth World was > created, they assembled at Four Corners and were instructed to spread out in > the four directions. Four (4) also represents the four elements in nature: > fire, water, air and earth; and the four color races of man: black, yellow, > white, and red." > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > North American Indian Prophecies > Talk Given by Lee Brown > 1986 Continental Indigenous Council > Tanana Valley Fairgrounds > Fairbanks, Alaska > > At the beginning of this cycle of time, long ago, the Great Spirit came down > and He made an appearance and He gathered the peoples of this earth together > they say on an island which is now beneath the water and He said to the > human beings, "I'm going to send you to four directions and over time I'm > going to change you to four colors, but I'm going to give you some teachings > and you will call these the Original Teachings and when you come back > together with each other you will share these so that you can live and have > peace on earth, and a great civilization will come about." > > And he said, "During the cycle of time I'm going to give each of you two > stone tablets. When I give you those stone tablets, don't cast those upon > the ground. If any of the brothers and sisters of the four directions and > the four colors cast their tablets on the ground, not only, will human > beings have a hard time, but almost the earth itself will die." > > And so he gave each of us a responsibility and we call that the > Guardianship. > > To the Indian people, the red people, he gave the Guardianship of the earth. > We were to learn during this cycle of time the teachings of the earth, the > plants that grow from the earth, the foods that you can eat, and the herbs > that are healing so that when we came back together with the other brothers > and sisters we could share this knowledge with them. Something good was to > happen on the earth. > > To the South, he gave the yellow race of people the Guardianship of the > wind. They were to learn about the sky and breathing and how to take that > within ourselves for spiritual advancement. They were to share that with is > at this time. > > To the West He gave the black race of people the Guardianship of the water. > They were to learn the teachings of the water which is the chief of the > elements, being the most humble and the most powerful. > > To the North He gave the white race of people the Guardianship of the fire. > If you look at the center of many of the things they do you will find the > fire. They say a light bulb is the white man's fire. If you look at the > center of a car you will find a spark. If you look at the center of the > airplane and the train you will find the fire. The fire consumes, and also > moves. This is why it was the white brothers and sisters who began to move > upon the face of the earth and reunite us as a human family. > > Joni-- > "If the 20th century unfolds >as I hope it does, the four major races will > begin to coerce and understand their contributions to the >greater whole; > that intellect--whitey's contribution--will be put in its proper > perspective. And > emotionality of the black race--the end they hold > up--will become an equal > to it. The clarity of the >yellow race, and the sensitivity and the depth of > the red race will all be used by all, that we'd all borrow >from one > another. That's my dream." ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:52:05 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Your Joni photo Hi Jim, Just caught up to your Joni photo reply. Yes, I'll scan it and email it to you. Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: JoniMessages@aol.com [mailto:JoniMessages@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 2:26 AM > To: peves@marlboro.edu > Cc: leslie@torchsongs.com > Subject: Your Joni photo > > > Hi Peg, > > It's Jim at JoniMitchell.com. Leslie forwarded the message you > sent her about > the photo you have from 1968. I'd love to put it up on the site, > probably in > the appropriate bio section, with a credit that it's courtesy of > your photo > collection. Sounds like a wonderful photo. > > If you have access to a scanner, you could just e-mail me a scan > of it and > I'll take it from there; if you don't, you could send it to me > and I'll scan > it and send it right back to you. I worry about things getting damaged or > lost in the mail, though, and I'd hate to see that happen. > > If you have any ideas or preferences, drop me a line and we'll > get the ball > rolling. Looking forward to hearing from you. > > Best Regards > Jim > JoniMitchell.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:25:20 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/18/00 7:07:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > pholden@iprimus.ca writes: > > << and Mags responds: > > the privileges that straight couples benefit from as being part of the > "norm" or > the "mainstream" outweigh any of the political bread crumbs that gay couples > are > being thrown these days all in the name of fair/equal rights. When was the > last > time a straight couple was yelled at for holding hands, kissing, > demonstrating > their affection for one another in public or otherwise? And that only > scratches > the surface. Homophobia is so deeply embedded in our society, it becomes a > piece > of the 'norm'. It manifests itself in many ways. It oozes through each and > every > pore. In my humble opinion, it is truly sad and twisted to cast stones upon > people who love each other and only want the freedom and privilege to do so > in > peace. >> > > Sorry, but I consider this neither relevant to the law nor justification for > granting special privileges. If I am not casting stones, why should I not get > the same benefits as everyone or anyone else? > > Paul I okay Paul, I will go one more round on this one and then just let it lie. I consider this relevant inasmuch as the laws do support, perpetuate and sustain homophobia. No one is suggesting that you should not get the same privileges as anyone else Paul. My point being that gay couples are 'not' privileged nor do they receive special privleges in our society. And let me clarify, this is IMHO. Mags - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:07:27 GMT From: "c Karma" Subject: re: joni's world view Gosh, y'all can beat the dead horse. Just kidding, I think it's great that a small question of syntax can provoke such profound thought. And it's to the artist's credit that her admirers care enough to consider it. I think it's pretty clear that the possibility of a "coerce/coalesce" flub explains the whole thing. Haven't we all gotten tied up in our own underwear when trying to explain a heady thought to someone. Unfortunately, she had a microphone in her face at the time. Joni simply will not temper her comments to the press, and why should she? Frankly, I think she was attempting to use the opportunity to improve understanding between the races. Joni's never uttered a non-humanist thought except as pertains to the music business and certain award honors. She's no shrinking violet if she has an axe to grind, but really at this point are you going to crucify her for honesty and spontaneity? She warned you: Oh, I talk too loose. Then I talk too open and free. I pay a high price for my open talking like you do for your silent mystery. Talk to me. At very worst, this is just another tequila anaconda. CC ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:20:44 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re:Joni's world view I remember now where I heard Joni talk about all this Dreamtime and Hopis stuff; it was during her Millennium Project Interview. For those of you who never read it or care to refresh your memory, there is a transcript of the interview at Jonimitchell.com. dated 3/26/00 under "The Word:" I think it will shed some light on what she was talking about. Rose (in New Jersey) NP: John Lennon, Imagine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:29:19 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Joni's World View Lori Reason posted: > I'm so glad you came up with this info Kate. > > A great book - maybe *the* book on this topic - is titled Seven Arrows by > Hyemyohsts Storm. The original is out of print, but a new version is > available at Amazon.com (for $14.40). Reviews say it should be required > reading in all schools to teach children how to live in peace. Can't get a > better recommendation than that imo. > Joni has believed in and has been reading these kinds of books for years. > Sometimes in conversation when I feel passionately about something I just > blurt it out without framing it so others can understand what the heck I'm > talking about. The older I get the more I do it because it is so ingrained in > my way of thinking. I think that's what Joni did. She forgets the rest of > the world doesn't read Native American philosophy. And just like with her > music, it's hard to keep up with her, she's so far ahead of most of us. Hi Lori Many thanks to you and Kate for these posts which have come the closest to answering my original question when I started this thread a few days ago: What was Joni thinking when she said this? I remember that the interview she did on the web at the (so-called) start of the new millennium was largely based on her interpretation of native beliefs. This seems to fit in with what you have pointed out here. Thanks to all who participated in this discussion in such a civil and intelligent manner. Everyone said their piece, made their points, asked their questions without slagging Joni or anyone else in the process. I think the way it was handled points out how exciting this List can be. All good things Ranger Rick p.s. to Lori: Your card will be in the mail within the next few days. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:32:11 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Hissing as a musical arc, PS PS I've recently gathered that Joni has abandoned Piano. Only recently since I'm not very up on Joni as a whole, just up on Hissing (as a whole). When did this happen? Since Hissing was mostly composed at the piano & organ, this is a matter of interest for a Hissing FANatic such as I. Certainly one of the reasons I threw Hejira out of the window was because it was composed with her rhythm guitar, in a car, to the pulse of a car in flight. But then, maybe she couldn't fit her piano in the car... Well, in that case she should have made her personal Hejira (to Medina?) in a truck! Bruce PPS hmmmm, What was the destination for Joni's Hejira? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:31:17 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Hissing as a musical arc Joni announces: "This is a total work, conceived graphically, musically, lyrically and accidentally-- as a whole...." But in what regard is Hissing a musical whole? Since, with respect to its music (styles, instrumentation), it is the most disparate of all of Joni's albums. There are two frames that Joni uses-- both deliberately and "accidentally"-- to render Hissing into a total work. One is the thematic triangle that her cover presents to us, the themes of city, jungle, suburb (suburban affluence). The other is the chronology, the arc of life, that she sets before us when we listen to the songs inside, in their sequence: the passage from youth > early adulthood > middle adulthood > late (?) adulthood. (I hope to eventually get to how these two frames are integrated.) The music of Hissing functions as part of the "total work" in that it is aligned with the latter frame, the arc of life. That is, the arc of life parallels an arc of music-- which begins in a music of late adolescence, then a music appropriate to the tensions of early adulthood, then a more mature music of something like the suburban lassitude of the perpetual LA-LA afternoon, basking or baking by the pool of affluence, and finally a music of latter-day existential reflections. More precisely, the organizational pattern is: the gradual dissolution of the pulse of her songs. The beat dissipates.... We begin in the propulsive happy rhythm of "In France," the pulse of the moving car and the excited eroticized teenagers inside. This happy rhythm, the comfortable, familiar union of voice, bass, drums, etc. (which reminds us of Court and Spark) is then completely disrupted or overthrown by the curious combination of aggressive jungle rhythms and sinister chromatic melody of the Jungle Line. - -- And then we pass into a different kind of rhythm: the less cheerful pulsations of tense adulthood. The opening danceable beat is lost or eclipsed within the jazzier styles of Edith, then the still lazier, more sinister?, less propulsive Harry's House. Can we really dance to "the Boho Dance"? Well, not like we used to be able to dance "In France"! (Personally, I wish Joni had taken this further, further from this kind of lite jazzy style of "Tom Scott and the LA Express," into more complete jazz rhythm, where the beat is only implied.) The languid rhythms of Hissing (the song) mark the musical middle (centerpiece?) between the adolescence pulse and danceable groooove back there "In France," and the final closing rhythms: the waves of time, our seasons of our lives, which inevitably chase off the "sweet bird of youth," then resolving to Joni's recitation of "shadows and light," the lonely voice singing with pulseless organ. Of course, I don't know if this was a deliberate decision on Joni's part to have the beat (the pulse of life, of romance?) dissipate in this matter, or if it simply followed (accidentally?) from the decision to build Hissing upon the arc of life. In any event, if you listen to Hissing as a "total work"-- which is as she intended-- it becomes a far more impressive and powerful work. Though not a cheerful one. - -- now back to my July pool, Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:38:29 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Hissing as a musical arc, PS B Merrill wrote: > > > PPS hmmmm, What was the destination for Joni's Hejira? To be her classic recording, right behind For the Roses. Jerry ;-> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:58:02 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: Hissing as a musical arc, PS >> PPS hmmmm, What was the destination for Joni's Hejira? >To be her classic recording, >right behind For the Roses. > >Jerry ;-> Nice one! I like it, Jerry. Bruco PS Even if frisbee arc of my pristine vinyl copy of Joni's Hejira was to sail out the window... falling into the hands of a Hejira FANatic such as you, I hoped. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:26:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Snakes & Ladders - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > I was watching a campy Ken Russell movie on the > Sci-Fi Channel > yesterday called 'The Lair of the White Worm.' > During one scene of > the movie, the seductive priestess of the snake god > is playing a board > game with one of her victims which is a variation of > 'Chutes & > Ladders.' Instead of chutes the board had - you > guessed it - snakes. > The name of the game, naturally, was 'Snakes and > Ladders.' > > This movie came out in 1988. CMIARS came out in > 1988. Now the > question is: Did Russell take the 'Snakes & > Ladders' name from Joni > or did Joni get it from Russell? Or is this just > another one of those > quirky, cosmic coincidences? I've always known of this game as "Snakes and Ladders". It's only recently that I heard anyone refer to it as "Chutes and ladders". I wonder if it started out as snakes, but people thought it would scare kids too much (yecch - snakes!) and they changed it (?) Or maybe it depends on where you live (?) Anyhow, it's always been "Snakes and ladders" to me. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:58:33 -0400 From: David Gertler Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/17/00 11:03:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > dgertler@concentric.net writes: > > << > You're missing an obvious point. You seem to be saying that benefits > extended to gay > couples should also be extended to unmarried heterosexual couples. But > that's a flawed > analogy. If you want your fiancee or girlfriend covered, all you have to do > is _marry_ > her. Gay couples do not (except in Vermont) have that option. >> > > I didn't miss it at all. Why should we have to get married to get the same > benefits you can gett without getting married. [...] The only reason gay couples can get these benefits without getting married is that they CAN'T get married (apart from Vermont's "civil union"). If you let gay couples get married, you might then be justified in denying benefits to unmarried couples. _That_ would be equal rights. (Why do I suspect that you know this but that you are just trolling?) Dave Gertler ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:20:59 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Colors a little JC Catman, I was thinking along the same colors as peach, except its not exactly peach. I saw the most striking color combo in a Joni photo but I can't remember where it was. Probably somewhere on the Joni website- and I know I saw it fairly recently. S She was in a brillian blue standing in front of an adobe-like wall that was earthy-orangey in color. There might have been blue flowers in the photo too. I wanted to paint my house that color, with the blue trim after seeing that picture. Does anyone recall where to find that photo? ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:55:31 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Colors a little JC You might be thinking of the picture of her standing by a wall holding a Christmas tree above her, with a big smile and what looked like a bluish cape thing. It was in the Roland magazine interview a few years ago. I love that photo. NP-Dave & Tim, 3/14/99 At 1:20 PM -0700 7/18/00, Kate Bennett wrote: >Catman, I was thinking along the same colors as peach, except its not >exactly peach. I saw the most striking color combo in a Joni photo but I >can't remember where it was. Probably somewhere on the Joni website- and I >know I saw it fairly recently. S > >She was in a brillian blue standing in front of an adobe-like wall that was >earthy-orangey in color. There might have been blue flowers in the photo >too. I wanted to paint my house that color, with the blue trim after seeing >that picture. > >Does anyone recall where to find that photo? - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ "Close it yourself, shitty!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:01:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: re: Yvette in English - --- Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > > There is no Yvette. > > For this song, we are free to bring whatever > interpretation we feel is > appropriate. For me, it's very similar to > understanding a dream. > "Please have this little bit of instant bliss". > > This line is even richer if you include the context > just before it: > > "Sweetly in English, she says, 'Please have this > little bit of instant > bliss.' " > > Okay, here's my two cent opinion. I'd like to > begin earlier in the song. > When we first meet Yvette, she's > "skittering sideways like a cat" then later, she's > "fumbling with a foreign tongue (language)". Interesting. I saw it as the *guy* fumbling with the foreign tongue. He can't speak very good French, he's sitting in this bistro in Paris and in comes this good-looking, but maybe klutzy, French *babe* who needs a match to light her cigarette - She asks him, "Avez-vous une allumette?" (Got a light?) Maybe she's a hooker(?) Maybe she's so nervous and skittery because she's been on a bender, but she's spotted this guy as possibly someone in need of her services. Or maybe she's just some gorgeous French babe looking for a light, but I'm going for the hooker angle (she curses "Merde!" as the cigarette ash falls). But this guy finds her really sexy. Maybe it's Crosby himself, some gone-to-seed middle-aged American dude who hasn't had a young woman come on to him in a while. So, in addition to not being very good with the language ("He's fumbling with her foreign tongue/ Reaching for words and drawing blanks/ A loud mouth is stricken deaf and dumb"), he's dumbstruck by her approaching *him* of all people. This is a guy who's maybe used to chatting up women but, between language and the fact that this babe is *actually talking - to him*, he turns into a slack-jawed yokel, probably saying "B'duh... b'duh" a lot. I figure she next speaks to him in English, recognizing that il ne parle pas francais. I don't think she actually *says* "Please have this little bit of instant bliss" but that's what he *hears* because now she's talking *to him* in English! Instant bliss - this babe is talking to MOI, the guy suffering from male menopause, middle-aged angst! (P.S. I like this one too!) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:51:26 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: [RE: Jonis World View] Lori wrote: "A great book - maybe *the* book on this topic - is titled Seven Arrows by Hyemyohsts Storm." Wow, thanks Lori, for reminding me of that book! I still have it and will check to see if there might be any reference to our discussion here. That is unless you are all tired of the subject after my last rather lengthy post! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:58:25 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Colors a little JC YES! Thank you Mark- what a great memory. Ta Da! Here is the link to the photo- http://www.rolandus.com/USERS/RUG/ARCHIVE/WIN_96/FEAT14_2/JONI1.HTM ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:31:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Yvette in English - --- susan+rick wrote: > Jim L'Hommedieu posted: > > > > This line is even richer if you include the > context just before it: > > > > "Sweetly in English, she says, 'Please have this > little bit of instant > > bliss.' > > And even sweeter if you imagine this said by > Claudine Longet!! > Heehee! You mean... "Pweez have ziss witto bit of instant bwiss?" (I t'ought I taw a puddy tat! I did! I did taw a puddy tat!) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:40:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni misquoted? - --- kerry wrote: > I just wanted to comment on Joni's alleged quote > about society's acceptance > of homosexuality as a sign of cultural decline. > First, I don't believe that > she actually said this or if she did, it was taken > out of context. (Just as > many Bible verses are pulled out and used to condemn > gay people.) If she > were "anti-gay," would she have written "Two Grey > Rooms," a song taken from > a story about 2 gay men? She obviously thought it > was a beautiful story and > to me it was the first clue that she is accepting of > gay people. > I wonder, did Joni say this at all? And if she did, it could have been part of the rather sly, dry humour she exhibits from time to time. She could make a remark like that with a perfectly straight (so to speak!) face, and some people would miss it entirely; some would say "Whoa, Joni's a fundamentalist?" others would say "Whoa, Joni's a homophobe?" and so on. Maybe if she said it, then paused, and gave one of those Johnny Carson kind of smirks, people might have caught on. That is, if she did say it at all - we don't seem to sure about that... So, maybe we're just speculating. (Now, if Joni HAD said that, then MAYBE what she really MEANT was...) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:48:35 -0400 From: Matthew Snyder Subject: re: Yvette in English >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:45:57 EDT >From: Bolvangar@aol.com >Subject: re: Yvette in English > > I thought this was a great, insightful post, and I was just reminded of >what it said while listening to "Yvette in English" by the chord on the word >"bliss" at the end of each verse. It's an unexpected chord -- a deceptive >cadence -- distant from the key of the song, as if something suddenly comes >from somewhere outside the song -- somewhere heavenly, perhaps, yet the chord >also creates tension and confusion in a way. So in this way I think the music >too suggests both the sensual and divine actions of "bliss" in their lives. > >On another note, I think "Yvette in English" needs a really cheesy >oom-pah-pah accordion, for that French cafe sound. We don't have to be >smothered in good taste all the time. ;) The progression on the chorus is Fmaj - Gmaj - Amin, except on "bliss" which temporarily resolves to AbMaj9 before finally hitting Amin9, definitely a gorgeous point of release, particularly with Wayne noodling on top of it. I think the more uncomfortable point is when it hits the Amin9, not the Abmaj9. The major chord with the extra 7th and 9th tones is amazing but a brief respite, and almost to drive the point home Joni quickly hits it again (with her patented high vocal harmonies atop it) before again resolving to Amin9 and the top of the next verse. Also interesting to note that the tune actually BEGINS with this little progression (Abmaj9 is the very first chord we hear). Perhaps the chord that is REALLY out of place in the tune is the classic Joni C major chord that gets hit at the end of the first part of each verse ("so quick to question her own WORTH"). There is an accordionesque sound on there, thankfully not of the oompah variety. You can never have too much good taste when it comes to music, hehehehe..... Matt Snyder msnyder@dragonfire.net http://msnyder.dragonfire.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:03:46 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colors a little JC GTlad to see the pic and the article. I like the colour too but maybe not for our lounge but then again.... thanks kate Kate Bennett wrote: > YES! > > Thank you Mark- what a great memory. > > Ta Da! Here is the link to the photo- > > http://www.rolandus.com/USERS/RUG/ARCHIVE/WIN_96/FEAT14_2/JONI1.HTM > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > www.cdbaby.com/katebennett > www.amazon.com > > "bringing the melancholy world of twilight > to life almost like magic…the album grows > more intriguing with repeated listening" > All Music Guide > > "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" > Indie-Music.com > ******************************************** - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:47:01 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Colors a little JC Yes, it might be better on the outside than in a room. Good luck with the decorating & now of course you know you will have to scan a photo of the room when its finished so we all can see! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** - -----Original Message----- From: catman [mailto:catman@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 1:04 PM To: Kate Bennett Cc: Mark Domyancich; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Colors a little JC GTlad to see the pic and the article. I like the colour too but maybe not for our lounge but then again.... thanks kate Kate Bennett wrote: > YES! > > Thank you Mark- what a great memory. > > Ta Da! Here is the link to the photo- > > http://www.rolandus.com/USERS/RUG/ARCHIVE/WIN_96/FEAT14_2/JONI1.HTM > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > www.cdbaby.com/katebennett > www.amazon.com > > "bringing the melancholy world of twilight > to life almost like magic…the album grows > more intriguing with repeated listening" > All Music Guide > > "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" > Indie-Music.com > ******************************************** - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:20:18 -0700 (PDT) From: leslie@torchsongs.com Subject: Accordions (VLJC) A listmember wrote as part of the "Yvette In English" thread: "...needs a really cheesy oom-pah-pah accordion, for that French cafe sound. We don't have to be smothered in good taste all the time..." As the wife of an accordionist I ask, "My good sir, are you biased against accordions?" Q: What do you call an accordionist with a beeper? A: An optimist... Q:What's the difference between an onion and an accordion? A: No one cries when you slice an accordion OK. Obviously it's time for me to get back to my job in the real world. Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:29:55 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Our Joni Photo(VLJC) Peg, I'm so glad to see you got in touch with Jim about your photo. I told you he'd be thrilled to put it up on the site as I'm sure Les would too. Hey Les, when is the gallery coming back? I have some photos taken during the TNT taping that I'd be willing to share. Let us know when it's up there. We're eager to see it. Thanks, Rose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:26:55 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: a movie i just rented (sjc) I've rented most of the good movies out this year, so now I just rent about anything to watch during the summer. I rented one last night (not that good), but it did have a few Joni-isms in the film. The movie starred Freddie Prinze Jr. and it was called: 1) "Down to You", but they never did play the song I hoped for 2) The two main characters were talking about music and Patsy Cline. She asks him "Do You Like Patsy?" and he says "Patsy, Billie, Joni, all the great female singers" 3) Again the two main characters were talking about music and she says "I have no musical talent, but that's how I found painting. You see I would paint album covers and paint myself in them" She hold up a few album covers and one of them is "Clouds", but her portrait is on the album and not Joni. I never finished watching the video, but thought it was interesting about the few Joni-isms in it. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:25:43 -0700 From: Emmy M Burns Subject: RE: Joni's Viewpoints I think I'm a little late on this, but I do want to add my opinion (thanks Rev, for clearing up the definition of feminism): I too was surprised when I heard that Joni did not identify as a feminist or believe in feminism as a positive good. Being a feminist does not mean a person is a man-hater. That is one of the hideous stereotypes that was created to discredit women as they gained authority in society. I think it is damaging to the women's rights movement for the word/concept 'feminism' to be demonized (language is powerful and attacking the word is attacking the concept of women rights IMO). Joni Mitchell and every other woman in the country have increased personal freedom due to the work of feminists everywhere. Think back to days before women had the right to vote or even more recently to the 1970's and you will not see female politicians, athletes, college students and musicians etc. When Joni criticizes feminism she seems to ignore the fact that the choices she made in her own life are only recently available to women. If she could expand her concept of feminism beyond "apartheid man-haters" I think she might see that you are either a feminist--believing that women have the same right to achieve their potential as men--or, as Ani Difranco so frankly put it, "you're a sexist. There is no box marked other." That's my belief anyway and although I admire Joni beyond description I cannot figure the anti-feminist side of her out, Emmy ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #299 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?