From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #298 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, July 18 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 298 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Yvette In English [AsharaJM@aol.com] BSN among the most played songs in music history [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Yvette in English ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: joni's viewpoints ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Patricia Barber - part Joni [Joseph Palis ] Re:better late than never [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Joni misquoted? ["kerry" ] Joni's statement re: feminism [John Downes ] Joni Mitchell Tilesets for Kyodai Mahjongg ["Ken (slarty)" ] Re: Mitchell family at Saskatoon... [AsharaJM@aol.com] Joni & Feminism ["kerry" ] Re: Stand and Be Counted [MDESTE1@aol.com] re: Yvette in English ["Ray & Cathy" ] (VLJC) Patti Smith ["Susan" ] Re: Joni & Feminism [pat holden ] Re: Yvette In English ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Joni favorites [Erin Stoy ] Re: Joni & Feminism [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni's world view (kinda long?) [Catherine McKay ] Mendel Posts sjc ["joe farrell" ] Re: Joni & Feminism [B Merrill ] [none] [john low ] Apologies! [john low ] Kate and Emil meet Joni! [Hejira924@aol.com] Re: Feminism (VLJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Joni misquoted? ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Joni's world view (kinda long?) [susan+rick ] RE: Joni misquoted? [Deb Messling ] Video Trees #4 and #5 [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Feminism (VLJC) [David Gertler ] Re: Feminism (VLJC) [susan+rick ] top 5 [pat holden ] HOPI ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Decorating Tips ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Fw: Joni's World View ["Kakki" ] RE: Joni's World View ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:59:39 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Yvette In English ltara@mindspring.com (Linda Montelione) wrote: << What a tasty little song to analyse! >> Hi Linda, and WELCOME to the list! I was hoping I would see your name here when I returned! A brief background for you curious listers: On the last day of our visit to Saskatoon, while having breakfast in the Bessborough dining room, I overheard a name from the mouth of the woman dining next to me. "Joni Mitchell," I heard her say. "I came all the way to Saskatoon for the opening." Well, anyone who has ever met me knows that "shy" is not my middle name, so...I waited so very patiently until this woman was finished talking to the waiter, and then said...."excuse me....I didn't mean to eavesdrop..." (Well, come on, you guys!!! She WAS talking about Joni!!!) So, of course I told her all about the list, and we talked for a really long time about all things Joni, and I told her she simply "must" join the list....and, well, here you are!!! A most delightful lady, who I think will add quite a bit of sparkle to this list. Welcome Linda! Hugs, Ashara www.photon.net/lightnet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:15:03 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: BSN among the most played songs in music history I gleaned this information from the website of BMI, whose job it is to keep track of such things . Both Sides Now is among the most played songs ever with over 4 million radio plays. The top most played song ever is You've Lost That Loving Feeling with 7 million plays on radio. Yesterday clocks in at 6 million. Only 1,500 songs have ever achieved million status. The full list of millionair songs is here with many surprises (to me anyway). http://www.bmi.com/musicworld/awards/millionairs/index.asp Philip NP Miles Of Aisles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:38:46 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Yvette in English Jason wrote: >Well, there you go...seems I was way off-base! > >This proves my oft-felt gut feeling that I just don't (or can't) ever >truly get under the skin of a song in the way the likes of Jim (and many >others) are able to. I see incisive, wonderfully articulated analyses >like this quite a lot on mailing lists, and frankly they are beyond my >own realm of capability. It's just as well not everyone is like me! And you couldn't be more wrong! I also loved Jim's analysis, and I find it hard to do that myself, but everyone's opinion is still valid, because every song affects people in different ways. So don't sell yourself short - I love the idea of the "little bit of instant bliss" being a cigarette! There are times when that's exactly what they are! Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:48:39 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints Jamie wrote: >I must stick up for Our Joan on this point. In an interview she held in >London round about the same time she said to 'The Late Show' presenter (I >think this in one of the video trees) Tracy McCloud that she isn't a >feminist as the feminists she has known have been man-haters, far too >apartheid, and that she has always been in the company of men since the >beginning. >I can see what she means in that. She means she has never allied herself to >the more extreme views of feminism and feminists because she has never felt >like hating men, despite being a woman in a male-dominated industry. I agree with you completely. I'll defend equality and a woman's right to be treated equally as long as I'm still breathing, but I don't like being labelled a feminist. It all comes down to your own personal view of what a word means. Kate mentioned the dictionary definition of a feminist, (Someone who believes in social, political, and economic equality for both sexes). Which is all well and good, but over the years, the term has come to mean (at least to me) a man-hating, radical female chauvanist. I'm not sure why, but it was probably a man that started it (I'm kidding!) I've never seen Joni as a woman dominated by men, despite being in a male-dominated industry, and I doubt I ever will. But if she objects to being called a feminist, then I agree completely. I already said that so I'll now shut up. Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:45:23 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Patricia Barber - part Joni In describing Patricia Barber's COMPANION album in the December 1999 issue of JAZZIZ, the San Francisco Bay Guardian says: "Part Billie Holiday, part Joni Mitchell, as captivating as anything emerging in jazz this decade." For those who want their vocal jazz non-linear and cerebral, try Patricia's CAFE BLUE and MODERN COOL. Fantastic vocalist and song writer. Joseph np: Harry Connick: Blue Light Red Light ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:22:30 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re:better late than never Hi Kate! Kate wrote: (for it feels as if she has been talking to me for 26 years, even though I have never been able to answer her) I know exactly what you mean; I've always felt this strange connection to her even though I never really met her until the TNT taping. She is a sweetheart isn't she? That was such a touching story you told us about your son Emil meeting Joni. She truly is the kindest and the most generous person I've ever met. How old is your son, Emil? He must have been so thrilled! Rose (in New Jersey) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:28:58 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: Joni misquoted? I just wanted to comment on Joni's alleged quote about society's acceptance of homosexuality as a sign of cultural decline. First, I don't believe that she actually said this or if she did, it was taken out of context. (Just as many Bible verses are pulled out and used to condemn gay people.) If she were "anti-gay," would she have written "Two Grey Rooms," a song taken from a story about 2 gay men? She obviously thought it was a beautiful story and to me it was the first clue that she is accepting of gay people. Kerry "Vice, virtue, it's best not to be too moral - you cheat yourself out of too much life. Aim above morality." - from "Harold & Maude" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:59:01 -0600 From: John Downes Subject: Joni's statement re: feminism Hi Kate, I remember the comment she made at the Folk Fest as well. It was part of an introduction to the song she was about to sing. I don't remember which song it was, but I think it had something to do with the fact that sometimes she was motivated to chase anything in pants. Sort of like "When I went skating after golden Reggie, you know it was white lace I was chasing". I suppose that her reference to feminism had something to do with making no apologies for her need to have a man in her life. She probably wasn't thinking about the implications of the dictionary definition at the time. - -John in Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:02:26 -0400 From: "Ken (slarty)" Subject: Joni Mitchell Tilesets for Kyodai Mahjongg I've updated my site recently and have now included 3 Joni Mitchell tilesets and 5 Joni Mitchell backgrounds in a zip file to be used with the Kyodai Mahjongg game. I've also included a link to web site where you can now download a program to run a screen saver for Mac users with which you can use the Joni Mitchell paintings I've place on my site. Check out the "icons" page. All this stuff can be found at - http://millennium.fortunecity.com/sherwood/452/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:32:07 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Stand and Be Counted This may or may not be Joni related, so I apologize in advance, but I wanted to err on the safe side. I thought the following might be of interest to a lot of people (and it may or may not have Joni content)--this is from Rolling Stone Online DAVID CROSBY TO HOST MINISERIES The Learning Channel has tapped musician/author/activist DAVID CROSBY to host "Stand and Be Counted," a four-hour documentary about political and social activism in music. The program, which is derived from Crosby and David Bender's book of the same name, will spotlight musicians who have applied their craft towards instigating social change. BOB DYLAN, BOB MARLEY, CARLOS SANTANA and JEWEL are among the numerous musicians represented in clips of interviews and performances. "Stand and Be Counted" will air Aug. 22 and 23 at 9 p.m. Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:01:03 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Stand and Be Counted It's a very moving piece. I did some work for the company that funded the production. I highly recommend that you catch this one. SMEBD@aol.com wrote: > This may or may not be Joni related, so I apologize in advance, but I wanted > to err on the safe side. I thought the following might be of interest to a > lot of people (and it may or may not have Joni content)--this is from Rolling > Stone Online > > DAVID CROSBY TO HOST MINISERIES > > The Learning Channel has tapped musician/author/activist DAVID CROSBY to host > "Stand and Be Counted," a four-hour documentary about political and social > activism in music. The program, which is derived from Crosby and David > Bender's book of the same name, will spotlight musicians who have applied > their craft towards instigating social change. BOB DYLAN, BOB MARLEY, CARLOS > SANTANA and JEWEL are among the numerous musicians represented in clips of > interviews and performances. "Stand and Be Counted" will air Aug. 22 and 23 > at 9 p.m. > > Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:05:54 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Mitchell family at Saskatoon... In a message dated 7/16/00 2:28:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, johndownes@home.com writes: << I was just reading over some of the reports from Saskatoon. Coyote Rick mentions cringing when hearing the speakers welcoming Joni and the Mitchell family. At first I though they were making a mistake in referring to Bill and Myrtle Anderson as "the Mitchell family", but upon reflection, I am 90% sure that the family who was there as representatives of the descendants of "Papa" Mendel were also named Mitchell. >> John, yes, that is true. Camille Mitchell, as a matter of fact, the ?granddaughter of "Papa Mendel" (as Joni called him) was the "MC" for the opening ceremonies. "However" 2 of the speakers *did* specifically refer to Bill and Myrtle as the "Mitchell Family" as well. Ouch. I just watched it again last night as I was putting together the Master tape for the tree. Joni tried to correct the fist one, but he just didn't get it. Hugs, Ashara www.photon.net/lightnet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:38:04 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: Joni & Feminism Mags wrote: >>I had a sociology professor a couple of years ago who claimed that she was not a feminist, and yet she always spouted off feminist pedagogy, politic, whatever you wish to call it. Her read on feminism was that it was something that she lived and breathed as a part of her every day existence. I always admired that in that she felt she didnt have to live up to anyone else's image or definition of what it meant to be a feminist. God knows, the media has one hell of a time misconstruing the whole thing.>> I really like this way of looking at feminism. I get really frustrated when I hear young women say they are NOT feminists, as if it somehow makes them man- hating lesbians! Especially, since most young women have grown up with so many more opportunities than have been available in the past. (I for one would die if I had to wear dresses every day! :>) It's too bad feminism seems too have such bad connotations, since feminists have done so much to get us where we are. And there's still a long way to go! I was surprised at Joni's comment, but feel better after reading your take on it. whew! Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:49:22 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Stand and Be Counted Boy Im really looking forward to this one. Other than on some (but not all) aspects of racial issues I cant think of a single thing anyone purported to "stand for" in the 50's-60's or 70's that they still stand for today. Its all turned into a nightmare. Counted for what. Bugging out on all the things we used to say we stood for such as mistrust of the government. Activism? Used to be on principal now is a photo-op. Used to be against the proliferation of nuclear weapons, now its go out of our collective way to avert our eyes when the single greatest act of proliferation in history is discovered. Read the words to Come in From The Cold. I think Joni hits it right on the nose. We really thought we had a purpose We were so anxious to achieve We had hope The world held promise For a slave to liberty Freely I slaved away for something better And I was bought and sold.... When I thought life had some purpose Then I thought I had some choice (I was running blind) And I made some value judgments In a self-important voice (I was outa line) But then absurdity came over me And I longed to lose control (into no mind) Oh all I ever wanted Was just to come in from the cold As my hero Pete Townshend once said...meet the new boss same as the old boss. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:11:01 -0700 From: "Ray & Cathy" Subject: re: Yvette in English Thanks, everyone, for your takes on the definition of "instant bliss". At first, I thought it was a cigarette, since that's my observance of people who really love their cigarettes...and then I thought instant bliss could be that spark you feel when someone interesting-looking comes into your sights, then fades as either you or that person exits the picture. I then remembered Wally's interview with Crosby (Part 2) where they specifically talk about the creation of this song...so, I looked it up. Here's a few specific references: Joni: "Yvette in English" came from some scribblings of Crosby's on a piece of paper. A man meets a French girl, you know, in a Parisian cafe, and nothing much happens. She offers him some bliss. The woman is unnamed." And here is a portion of her 1st rewrite (still quite different from the final version): As we slip along in the spreading stain How did I wind up here again You say in English "Here try some of this Its a little bit of instant bliss" Your cigarette burns your fingertips It falls like fireworks And you step on it In another part of the interview Joni said, "He had 'she offers him a little bit of instant bliss' which became a piece of the chorus, and then I gave her a name - Yvette" So.........it looks like it is a cigarette...another vignette-song painted ever so dramatically by our Joan. Cathy in Oregon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:55:41 -0500 From: "Susan" Subject: (VLJC) Patti Smith Michael wrote > Patti Smith, "Gung Ho" (somewhat synchronous as she is just reaching > my least favorite part of the whole album, where she recites portentously > "colonial --- ISM; imperial --- ISM." A friend and I joked "postmodern > - --- ISM" when we saw her do this in concert, which I will see her do > again tomorrow, along with Richard Thompson and the Mekons... > I saw Patti Smith at the "Folk & Roots Festival" this weekend as well, along with Richard Thompson. What a wild place to see one of my favorite rockers! Right in the middle of a softball field I have played on & just a good stretch of the legs from my house. Welcome to the neighborhood Patti! I think she is one of the most giving performers in concert, whether you except what she's offering or not she sends up some of her soul and it's yours to share. She wants you to think about what she has to say. I proudly took my 5 year old niece to the concert as we were having a "girls day" out, SHE LOVED IT! I know many do not see the connection between Joni & Patti but I do. Both are poets and soul revealing song writers, who feel passion for the arts and compassion for others. I don't know as much about Patti's other interests, but I would not be surprised to find more similarities. I'd also be interested to find out what they think of each other. Peace Susan P.S. Michael, hope you weren't that guy who had the broken leg and went around searching for sympathy from women, and bragging that he was a podiatrist, as part of his intro! What a stretch to pick up women! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:16:37 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: Joni & Feminism kerry wrote: > Mags wrote: > >>I had a sociology professor a couple of years ago who claimed > that she was not a feminist, and yet she always spouted off > feminist pedagogy, politic, whatever you wish to call it. Her > read on feminism was that it was something that she lived and > breathed as a part of her every day existence. I always admired > that in that she felt she didnt have to live up to anyone else's > image or definition of what it meant to be a feminist. God > knows, the media has one hell of a time misconstruing the whole > thing.>> > > I really like this way of looking at feminism. I get really frustrated when > I hear young women say they are NOT feminists, as if it somehow makes them > man- hating lesbians! Especially, since most young women have grown up > with so many more opportunities than have been available in the past. (I > for one would die if I had to wear dresses every day! :>) It's too bad > feminism seems too have such bad connotations, since feminists have done so > much to get us where we are. And there's still a long way to go! I was > surprised at Joni's comment, but feel better after reading your take on it. > whew! > > Kerry and after much work and writing and research and soul searching into feminism and what it means to me, I will say that what I learned is to have a much softer approach to our brothers, the men who have also been oppressed by antiquated systems (patriarchy, capitalism, homophobia to name a few) which hold so many of us hostage for who we are , what colour our skin is, what we believe in....the list goes on. Man hating does not fit into my picture of what feminism is. I have grown to love my brothers even more. That said, IMHO, we still have a long way to go baby. mags, doing the majorola dejunking thang np: STAS :) - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:30:33 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: Yvette In English Welcome Linda! I love reading people's interpretations of Joni's songs, each one ever so subtly different but in the same vein. This song, however poses a few problems in that it is co-written by David Crosby (something most posters to this haven't paid much attention to - until a few posts later that is!). How much of it is HIS autobiography or his interpretation of a situation? I'm not saying that any of it is autobiographical on either counts but you do take a little from life and a little from fantasy when you are writing fiction.... I know that Joni wrote 'burgundy nocturne tips and spills'....oh... I wish I had the interview where is printed Joni's fax compared to Crosby's fax of the writing process.... It's substantially different.... anyone know anything about it? The Zoob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:24:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Erin Stoy Subject: Joni favorites Back posting to the list, thanks to Les-- I haven't been able to because I'm using a different email account. So I'm more than a little late with this thread, but here are my top 5 Joni albums in no particular order: *Hejira *For the Roses *The Hissing of Summer Lawns *Court and Spark *Blue And here are some of my favorite songs (limited to 15--I'm cheating BIG time): *Song for Sharon *Hejira *Coyote *Passion Play (When All the Slaves Are Free) *In France They Kiss on Main Street *Edith and the Kingpin *Harry's House/Centerpiece *Sweet Bird *Barangrill *Blonde in the Bleachers *Blue *Conversation *I Don't Know Where I Stand *Just Like This Train *Troubled Child - --Erin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:42:09 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni & Feminism In a message dated 7/17/00 1:18:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pholden@iprimus.ca writes: << and after much work and writing and research and soul searching into feminism and what it means to me, I will say that what I learned is to have a much softer approach to our brothers, the men who have also been oppressed by antiquated systems (patriarchy, capitalism, homophobia to name a few) which hold so many of us hostage for who we are , what colour our skin is, what we believe in....the list goes on. Man hating does not fit into my picture of what feminism is. I have grown to love my brothers even more. That said, IMHO, we still have a long way to go baby. >> Based on your statement, I would describe you as I would myself and Joni not as a feminist but as a humanist -- someone who seeks equality and fairness for ALL humans, regardless of race, national origin , gender or sexual orientation. Any term more specific than humanist, in an opinion I think Joni shares with me, implies that something MORE than equality, such as special favors or privileges, is sought for that portion of humanity that person, such as a feminist, is partial to. Paul I Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:14:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni's world view (kinda long?) - --- Kakki wrote: > Pat, > > You make some very interesting points that I did not > consider. When I first > read these remarks from her, I thought, "eesch, how > archaic" but in a larger > world view they may not be archaic at all. I haven't > lived in other > countries but I've worked for a number of foreign > corporations and also > worked on lawsuits involving them. Some have come > and set up business in > the U.S. either not knowing about the equal/civil > rights laws here, or know > them and deliberately choose to ignore them. I've > personally seen examples > of officially sanctioned and systemized > discrimination in some of these > cases. Even as the courts are taking these > businesses to task, their > principals are still confounded as to why they are > in trouble. I have to admit, sometimes when I hear Joni making these kind of statements, based (or maybe not) on some philosophy she has been reading about, I just think, "Oh brother, Joni. Let's not get too caught up in the belief du jour." Before Europeans arrived in North America, I don't think they were aware that there were any other races, or people, apart from themselves. Many of their names for themselves (whatever ethnic group, or clan, or tribe, if you will, that they belonged to) translates into English as "the people." Their first contact with whites would have to have been when Europeans first arrived on their shores, and started trading with them, then started slaying them. I can't imagine that would have impressed them much, much less that it would have attributed any "positive" traits to Europeans. And their first contact with the "black" and "yellow" people would probably have been to see these groups used, again by whites, as slave labour - the blacks first kidnapped and brought to North America to be sold as slaves; then the Chinese as indentured servants, or whatever they called it back then, building railroads, being charged room and board out of the measly money they were paid, not being allowed to bring their wives and families over, ending up owing the railway owners money for the privilege of doing their dirty work. So, if this is a "native" philosophy, it must be a fairly recent one and made by someone who is either very naive, or very forgiving. The four directions, NSEW, or the elements of water, fire, earth and air, OK, but four races representing different aspects of people? Sorry, but I have a hard time seeing this as "native philosophy". And, I get a little pissed off when people try to break humanity down into x-number of races. It's almost impossible to do that. We're either one race, or we're a whole heck of a lot of them, but way more than four. You can't judge a person's "race" by skin colour. You'd probably have to look at DNA and what are you going to use as the *thing* that says person A is more like Person B than Person C? Blood type? Susceptibility to certain genetic diseases that are more prevelant in some ethnic groups than in others? What about people who have parents of different ethnic groups? Is a person with one black parent and one white parent considered black or white? Both? Neither? What about 3 white grandparents and 1 black one? And so on. Yeah, we notice people who look different from us - we've got eyes, but even blind people can be racists, so it's not just a visual thing. Maybe it's not visual at all. Racism is a nasty thing - it's more about what I tell my kids about people who are different from our family, and how that comes across - 1) they're different from us - there's beauty in variety or 2) they're different from us and that's a scary thing - let's treat them badly so they either conform or go away. Some people claim they don't *notice* a person's colour. Of course they do, and why not? But I'm willing to bet a whole lot of money that, even if people were all one race (we'd probably all be this lovely cafe au lait colour), we'd still find some reason to separate ourselves from others who were "inferior" for some reason. Wrong height, wrong body shape, wrong religion, wrong language. Whatever. Having said that, I don't think Joni's a racist at all. I do think some of her philosophies come across as a bit flakey, (or is it flaky? it looks wrong either way). Sometimes many of us look at things purely from the North American standpoint. Our laws in Canada dealing with human rights/racism/discrimination are similar to those of the US, as far as I know, and some of us tend to see these things as pretty much a given - you can't discriminate against people because of race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. We try to apply our philosophies and beliefs to people in other countries and cultures. But, what is practical for us, may not be so practical for them. As an example, a co-worker of mine comes from India. Her family was pretty well-off and they had servants. A number of people here at work were commenting about the very idea of having servants. How can you use people this way? how can you be so lazy as to not do all the work yourself? how can you take advantage of people like that? Why do they have little children cleaning houses when these kids should be at school learning how to better their lives? But the problem is, in many of these countries, there is so much poverty that, if they didn't send the kids out to work, they'd starve. They can't send the kids to school because they need to get food on the table. In many households, the servants work for a family all their lives, as do their kids. In many of these households, the servants are treated like family (maybe not quite like family, maybe more like poor relations). Which is not to say that some don't get mistreated or that it's right that we "use" little kids as maids and so on. But in a very poor economy, this is one way (maybe not the best) of keeping many people in work. Most of these households don't need all the servants they have, but that's the way they've lived for years. If you laid all these people off and said, "You don't need to work like this anymore. Go to school. Get an education and good luck to you", what you'd end up with is a bunch of people who may show up at school for a while, but they'd have no food to eat. And so on. And you can't legislate this kind of thing without making plans for how to deal with what comes after all the slaves are free. It's all very well to want equality, but you can't necessarily apply the same standards to other cultures that we enjoy in North America and Europe and Australia (and for Hell in New Zealand!) You can't just say, "OK, people, everyone's equal - go on out there and get some education and a good job." You have to bring these changes about slowly, maybe too slowly for any of us to notice, and too slowly for those of us who lack patience. How do you do that? And, take the case of South Africa. A few years ago, people were boycotting South African goods, hoping and believing this would force the then-government to end apartheid. But, in boycotting everything from South Africa, you're decreasing work and therefore money for the people you're hoping to gain freedom for. So, do you do it or not? A similar thing is going on now in Iraq - is it OK to deal with the tyranny of a Sadam, for example, by boycotting them, or placing embargoes on them, when you know that by doing so, little children, who have no politics, are going without food and medicine? Why not send a sniper to take out the tyrant instead? If you're Judy Collins, do you go to the concert? If so, do you make a political statement, or just sing? Do you boycott the concert? I don't know the answers to any of this stuff (of course) and I'm not trying to justify any of it. You do the best you can given the circumstances you're in, using the best judgment you have, and there you go. No matter what choice you make, someone isn't going to like it - maybe you won't like it yourself, but at a certain point, you have to make a decision of some kind. Broken noses alter faces Situations alter cases. I have no idea where that quote came from, but I love it. I'll shut up now - I'm still about 100 posts behind. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:28:38 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: Feminism (VLJC) Paul I wrote: >>. Any term more specific than humanist, in an opinion I think Joni shares with me, implies that something MORE than equality, such as special favors or privileges, is sought for that portion of humanity that person, such as a feminist, is partial to.>> Paul, I whole-heartedly agree with your point about humanism, but I don't agree that feminists are partial to "special privileges." This is another misinterpretation. I hear this constantly about gay rights and don't understand it. Many groups of people fighting for equal rights under the law are seen as asking for "special rights" just because no one sees the every day injustices placed on them from society as a whole (and it would take a whole lot of special rights to ultimately come out "even"). I think this stems from fear. It's like the bumper sticker says, "If we give gay people equal rights, then everyone will want them." Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:08:54 +0100 From: "joe farrell" Subject: Mendel Posts sjc Just wanted to thank all of you who posted from Saskatoon, it souded an amazing experience. All those sightings of and meetings with Joni...Oh to have been there. Ah well at least through all of your posts we got a real flavour of it all, thanks again. Joe. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:46:26 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: Joni & Feminism At 10:38 AM 07/17/2000 -0500, kerry wrote: I get really frustrated when >I hear young women say they are NOT feminists, as if it somehow makes them >man- hating lesbians! Especially, since most young women have grown up >with so many more opportunities than have been available in the past. (I >for one would die if I had to wear dresses every day! :>) It's too bad >feminism seems too have such bad connotations, since feminists have done so >much to get us where we are. And there's still a long way to go! I was >surprised at Joni's comment, but feel better after reading your take on it. >whew! > >Kerry Thank you, Kerry! To be a feminist is... in the first place... to uphold the principle of the equality of the sexes, and the right of women to shape their own lives. The case that women (and men) turn away from what should be an obvious moral principle is... lamentable. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:54:24 +1000 From: john low Subject: [none] pat, You asked if John Lennon had done the artwork on the cover of his book of poems. I guess that would be "In His Own Write" published about 1964. I don't have a copy but I seem to remember that it had his drawings throughout as well as on the cover. I also have a vague idea that he published a similar little book a year or so later. Also, Rose (in New Jersey) told me that Yoko Ono published a book of JL's drawings after his death titled "Real Love: The Drawings For Sean". (Thanks Rose!) Cheers, John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:03:28 +1000 From: john low Subject: Apologies! A BIG SORRY to all the 'Joni Only' subscribers! My post re pat's question on John Lennon went off without a subject line and hence to all listers. John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:06:53 EDT From: Hejira924@aol.com Subject: Kate and Emil meet Joni! I just want to share how gratifying it was for me to read Kate's account of the Mendel opening. I met her in the tent afterwards, and felt disappointed for her and Emil that they hadn't gotten the chance to meet Joni (at least not up until that point). Kate is the one who got me into this whole JMDL, and I am really grateful to have this forum. I took off after speaking with her, and now I just can't get over how wonderful their meeting with Joni must have been, given Kate's account here. Emil, I think it is really interesting that of all of Joni's CD's you mentioned specifically "Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm," which doesn't make most people's lists, but indeed there was some rainstorm that night! Before I flew to Saskatoon, I taped all of the Hejira album, DJRD, Paprika Plains and Clouds, as I thought my drive through the Prairies later that weekend would be really enhanced by that music, but then I had some extra room on my tape so I kind of randomly picked up my CMIAR album, which I hadn't played in years, and taped Lakota and The Tea Leaf Prophecy. These songs also became part of my serendipitous Sakatchewan repertoire that weekend. I met some native Americans there (Cree instead of Lakota, but you get the point). I was reminded, listening to The Tea Leaf Prophecy, of what it must have been like for Joni growing up in the post-WWII generation ("study war no more"). Yeah, I really must re-acquaint myself with all of CMIAR, as I remember having loved songs like Cool Water, My Secret Place, and the Beat of Black Wings - I still can't believe it's been a dozen years or so since I last listened to those songs. So thanks, Emil, for reminding me to listen! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:02:04 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) In a message dated 7/17/00 4:33:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, myrtlmoo@ticon.net writes: << I hear this constantly about gay rights and don't understand it. Many groups of people fighting for equal rights under the law are seen as asking for "special rights" just because no one sees the every day injustices placed on them from society as a whole (and it would take a whole lot of special rights to ultimately come out "even"). >> Then attack and correct the injustices at their core; trying to even them up with alternative advantages is doomed because it fails to place at a disadvantage the same group that gains from the original injustices. << I think this stems from fear. It's like the bumper sticker says, "If we give gay people equal rights, then everyone will want them." >> In that vein, if my state allows gay couples to extend insurance and other benefits to each other, then I should be able to add my fiancee or girlfriend to MY insurance in the same way. But to allow gay "civil unions" to benefit while I cannot is an example of granting an advantage to a special group that neither corrects an injustice or provides an "equal" status. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:53:48 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni misquoted? dear kerry, i made it VERY clear that i'm looking for the original interview to quote joni in context. that she made this comment is A FACT, and there is nothing either you or i can do about it. as to 2 grey rooms, i fail to see how that song may indicate joni's position toward same-sex relationships. it might even be construed as a very homophobic song, describing same-sex liaisons as obsessive and doomed to be unfulfilled. in any case, the song might go either way. wallyk > I just wanted to comment on Joni's alleged quote about society's acceptance > of homosexuality as a sign of cultural decline. First, I don't believe that > she actually said this or if she did, it was taken out of context. (Just as > many Bible verses are pulled out and used to condemn gay people.) If she > were "anti-gay," would she have written "Two Grey Rooms," a song taken from > a story about 2 gay men? She obviously thought it was a beautiful story and > to me it was the first clue that she is accepting of gay people. > > Kerry > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:01:17 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: Joni's world view (kinda long?) Catherine McKay posted: ....a well thought out and well written essay which I liked very much. Way to go Catherine. Ranger Rick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:11:27 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: RE: Joni misquoted? I remember an interview, circa 1978, in which Joni complained about homosexual fashion designers who were designing ugly, masculine clothes in an attempt to make women look foolish. Anyone remember this? I thought it was in the the bad-hair Rolling Stone interview, but I did a keyword search on jmdl.com and did not retrieve it. Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~I like cats. They give the home a heartbeat. / Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:39:05 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Video Trees #4 and #5 Please note: The only blank videos I am taking in right now are from the BRANCHES of these videos, i.e. anyone that has come forward to offer to help copy the videos for others. I have received blank tapes from people without a note attatched or an e-mail address to get in touch with you, and I have no idea what these are for. If you think this is you, please e-mail me so we can straighten this out. For the rest of you, please rest assured that my machines have been humming all day in the effort to get these out as soon as we can. Please do not send blank videos unless you are a branch. Thanks so much for your understanding. Hang in there! Hugs, Ashara www.photon.net/lightnet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:50:34 -0400 From: David Gertler Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) > Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:02:04 EDT > From: IVPAUL42@aol.com > Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) > [...] > In that vein, if my state allows gay couples to extend insurance and other > benefits to each other, then I should be able to add my fiancee or girlfriend > to MY insurance in the same way. You're missing an obvious point. You seem to be saying that benefits extended to gay couples should also be extended to unmarried heterosexual couples. But that's a flawed analogy. If you want your fiancee or girlfriend covered, all you have to do is _marry_ her. Gay couples do not (except in Vermont) have that option. - --Dave Gertler [as they say, "straight but not narrow"] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:53:59 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com posted: > In that vein, if my state allows gay couples to extend insurance and other > benefits to each other, then I should be able to add my fiancee or girlfriend > to MY insurance in the same way. > But to allow gay "civil unions" to benefit while I cannot is an example of > granting an advantage to a special group that neither corrects an injustice > or provides an "equal" status. Does the U.S. not recognize what are called "common law" relationships in Canada (and I imagine in the rest of the ex-British Empire)? It's been the case here for years that couples living together as husband and wife get the same benefits and privileges as legally married couples. This has been extended to same sex couples within the last little while. Ranger Rick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:48:22 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: top 5 real difficult to find the time do this, due for reasons i cannot get into , however...here is my attempt at the claiming of my top 5 favs.... CD's Song for a Seagull (wow what an album, thanks for the insight ;) Blue (special for 26 years) Court and Spark (first Joni i ever heard) For the Roses (only discovered this recently...lucky me found a guide to the universe) Miles of Ailes ( just cuz, just so) songs okay this was real difficult...so Im going to go back to the top 5 and just give my fav from each....not that this is possible or feasible or anything resembling easy but here goes....for the moment i love..... marcie and nathan ( i hear they are meant to be together for all time, i like that notion) a case of you (beautiful moving love song) court and spark lesson in survival (cuz ive done alot of that and have a real thing for magnets) woman of heart and mind (special and lots of meanings found within) mags - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:34:58 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: HOPI I have been looking for the reference to explain what Joni might have been referring to regarding the four races. Yes, like someone mentioned, it might be the philosophy de jour coming from her mouth or mine for that matter. Except that I think she is well read. Does anyone have her statement to repost? Anyway, I am thinking what she is referring to may be from the Book of the Hopi. This is because I recently read somewhere on the Joni website about her reference to koyaanisqatsi, a Hopi word for "world out of balance." I think that is why what she said sounded very familiar. I used to have the Book of the Hopi, but don't anymore. I have heard several Hopi leaders speak and remember them speaking about the four races of mankind and about Hopi Prophecy. The thing I remember the most is that they said we shouldn't have brought anything back from the moon, that it was something that would create an imbalance. Kate Bennett ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:10:50 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Decorating Tips Colin, Do you REALLY want decorating tips from a middle-aged, straight, lonely, computer technician who lives in middle America?? :) Think carefully...... All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:28:27 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Fw: Joni's World View Kate B. asked for a repost of Joni's remarks. Here are the relevant portions. Kakki > Quoted from an article in the Vancouver Sun, July 8, 2000. > ____________________________ > Headline: ANOTHER SIDE OF JONI > Nobody in Saskatoon knew quite what to make of Joni >Mitchell's comments about race, so they ignored them. But >however well-intentioned, the words got Adele Weder >wondering. > [snip] > She spoke of aboriginal spirituality. Then came the real head scratcher: "If the 20th century unfolds >as I hope it does, the four major races will begin to coerce and understand their contributions to the >greater whole; that intellect--whitey's contribution--will be put in its proper perspective. And > emotionality of the black race--the end they hold up--will become an equal to it. The clarity of the >yellow race, and the sensitivity and the depth of the red race will all be used by all, that we'd all borrow >from one another. That's my dream." > Well, of course she meant the "21st" century, and she didn't really mean that the races have to be >coercive to get along. Still, it's tempting to smell a Freudian slip in this old-fashioned world view, where >races are pigeonholed by their inborn characteristics.Whatever she meant, none of us dared to ask for >an elaboration. Nor did anyone report her dream in the next day's papers. (It was over my head," >explained one reporter.) ........... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:11:49 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Joni's World View Thanks Kakki, in the meantime I did a search for Hopi Prophecy. Here are some excerpts: Thomas Banyacya, Hopi Elder-- "The circle with the four O's and cross within [referring to the above figure] symbolizes the Four Corners Region (where Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico meet). The circle represents no beginning and no end -- the infinite Great Spirit. The Indians believe we are the Fourth World. When the Third World was destroyed, those Indians who had listened to the prophets were guided to places of safety underground. After the Fourth World was created, they assembled at Four Corners and were instructed to spread out in the four directions. Four (4) also represents the four elements in nature: fire, water, air and earth; and the four color races of man: black, yellow, white, and red." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- North American Indian Prophecies Talk Given by Lee Brown 1986 Continental Indigenous Council Tanana Valley Fairgrounds Fairbanks, Alaska At the beginning of this cycle of time, long ago, the Great Spirit came down and He made an appearance and He gathered the peoples of this earth together they say on an island which is now beneath the water and He said to the human beings, "I'm going to send you to four directions and over time I'm going to change you to four colors, but I'm going to give you some teachings and you will call these the Original Teachings and when you come back together with each other you will share these so that you can live and have peace on earth, and a great civilization will come about." And he said, "During the cycle of time I'm going to give each of you two stone tablets. When I give you those stone tablets, don't cast those upon the ground. If any of the brothers and sisters of the four directions and the four colors cast their tablets on the ground, not only, will human beings have a hard time, but almost the earth itself will die." And so he gave each of us a responsibility and we call that the Guardianship. To the Indian people, the red people, he gave the Guardianship of the earth. We were to learn during this cycle of time the teachings of the earth, the plants that grow from the earth, the foods that you can eat, and the herbs that are healing so that when we came back together with the other brothers and sisters we could share this knowledge with them. Something good was to happen on the earth. To the South, he gave the yellow race of people the Guardianship of the wind. They were to learn about the sky and breathing and how to take that within ourselves for spiritual advancement. They were to share that with is at this time. To the West He gave the black race of people the Guardianship of the water. They were to learn the teachings of the water which is the chief of the elements, being the most humble and the most powerful. To the North He gave the white race of people the Guardianship of the fire. If you look at the center of many of the things they do you will find the fire. They say a light bulb is the white man's fire. If you look at the center of a car you will find a spark. If you look at the center of the airplane and the train you will find the fire. The fire consumes, and also moves. This is why it was the white brothers and sisters who began to move upon the face of the earth and reunite us as a human family. Joni-- "If the 20th century unfolds >as I hope it does, the four major races will begin to coerce and understand their contributions to the >greater whole; that intellect--whitey's contribution--will be put in its proper perspective. And > emotionality of the black race--the end they hold up--will become an equal to it. The clarity of the >yellow race, and the sensitivity and the depth of the red race will all be used by all, that we'd all borrow >from one another. That's my dream." ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #298 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?