From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #297 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, July 17 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 297 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: better late than never ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni Sings the Blues ["P. Henry" ] Re: Joni's World View ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Mingus' "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady" (LJC) [B Merrill ] RE: Joni's World View ["P. Henry" ] joni's viewpoints [Kate ] Re: joni's viewpoints [catman ] The Healing Power of Joni's Music [Merk54@aol.com] Joni's World View [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: joni's viewpoints ["Kakki" ] Mitchell family at Saskatoon... [John Downes ] Re: Grace of My Heart (tiny bit o' JC) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Joni Sings the Blues [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Yvette in English [Jason Maloney ] Re: Grace of My Heart (tiny bit o' JC) [Jason Maloney ] Snakes & Ladders ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: joni's viewpoints [catman ] Re: Snakes & Ladders [catman ] re: Yvette in English ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Snakes & Ladders ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Re: joni's viewpoints ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Re: Snakes & Ladders ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Yvette in English [Jason Maloney ] re: Yvette in English [bohodan ] Re: Yvette in English ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] feminsim & courageous Pat ["Kate Bennett" ] Nickel Chief's Surreal Joni Dream ["Michael Bird" ] Yvette In English ["Linda Montelione" ] Four Directions, etc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: joni's viewpoints [pat holden ] Re: Yvette in English [susan+rick ] The Maidstone/Saskatoon/Mendel video tape [AsharaJM@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:12:58 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: better late than never Kate of the North - It was just wonderful reading your report! I'm so happy to hear that your son was able to meet and chat with Joni and that so many there were kind and helpful to you. I did feel bad that you had to slog through those annoying rain puddles but it seemed well worth it when you reached your "destination" ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 03:54:47 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Joni Sings the Blues cassy wrote: >For the life of me I cannot recall where I read that Joni was sued over the song "Furry Sings the Blues" that she and Neil had visited with Furry on a trip to Memphis and that while they were there, Furry had been playing his harmonica and that Joni and Neil had used those licks in the recorded release, ostensibly to pay him "homage." I have a recollection that Joni was sued for royalties. Does anyone else recall this? Do you know where it was originally reported?> it sounds likely... this is 'from the horses mouth' on JMDL at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/770224rs.cfm "The way I feel " says Furry "is that your name is proper only to you, and when you use it you should get results from it. She shouldn't have used my name in no way, shape, form or faction without consultin' me 'bout it first. The woman came over here and I treated her right, just like I does everybody that comes over. She wanted to hear 'bout the old days, said it was for her own personal self, and I told it to her like it was, gave her straight oil from the can." He stares at the surrealistic photo on the Hejira cover. "But then she goes and puts it all down on a record, using my name and not giving me nothing! I can't stop nobody from talkie' 'bout Beale Street, 'cause the street belongs to everybody. But when she says 'Furry,' well that belongs to me!" (Though Joni Mitchell had no response to Furry's comments, her manager, Elliot Roberts, responded: "All she said about him was, 'Furry sings the blues' the rest is about the neighborhood. She doesn't even mention his last name. She really enjoyed meeting him, and wrote about her impressions of the meeting, He did tell her that he didn't like her, but we can't pay him royalties for that. I don't pay royalties to everybody who says they don't like me. I'd go broke.")" pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:09:03 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: Joni's World View Hey, what about us Brown Races? I'm sure Azeem and I will have something to say to Joni.. :-) The Zoob - who is really more cafe au lait as I am mixed race! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 08:40:20 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Mingus' "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady" (LJC) A PS on the Mingus recommendations: His "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady" is thought by some to be his masterpiece. I don't know about that, but it is a brilliant and very odd (obsessive) piece. It is like nothing else, in jazz or any other music. Highly recommended. There is also the posthumous colossal suite, name escapes me, arranged and realized by Gunther Schuller, but I've only heard it once. As a jazz composer, he's up there at the tippy top, with Ellington. I'm delighted to learn from Scott that the Mingus Dynasty picked up on some of those tunes he did with Joni. (Even if I agree with those grumblers who feel that she should not have received a jazz Grammy.) Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:53:45 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Joni's world view (kinda long?) *slipping on asbestos overalls* ;o) it seems providential to me that at the same time we are fiddling with this ("don't go there") discussion on what may or may not have been meant by Joni's comments on 'the four great races', someone is suddenly struck with the good sense to motion to the effect that the world, and the many, MANY non-American listers we have do not revolve around the US or her politics. I am thoroughly American but I have lived more than half my 50yrs outside the continent, about 4 in Europe and the rest in the Pacific Rim, and I always kind of bite my tongue a little when, in the context of this international forum, someone will start going off on the values of 'racial equality' and 'discrimination' and the 'rights' of various groups, even though these are values I, myself, espouse. there may be a few countries, outside the US, whose politics and world view are more progressive than others, or at least *what Americans would view as such*, but on the whole, Americans should realize that these values are *not* shared by the rest of the world, and that, in fact, going back to the 'melting pot' ideal of integration, for the most part *all* other countries find these ideals abrasive and think we're a little nuts specifically for embracing them! there is no concept of equality to be doled out to the non-Japanese person who decides to make Japan his home. he is merely a foreigner who will never gain acceptance nor be given any 'rights' because he is different and that's that! no, I'm not picking on Japan, it's the same in Germany and France and Morocco and Switzerland and you name it. if I were to go simply by my American upbringing I would characterize these nationalist attitudes as 'bad' and condemn them but I have been around the globe a few times and I realize that in their respective countries their ways work just fine for them and I would hope that some of the people from those countries would be able to look at me with my 'racial equality' ideals and say the same. (instead of thinking I'm a nutcase for wanting races to mix) after all, the US is only 224yrs old and their ways of dealing with people who are different are thousands of years old in some cases and backed up by generations of traditions handed down. almost all I've ever encountered, for example have folklore that informs the members of that nationality that they were the first people and all other people came from them and down deep, most of them believe that religiously from the time they are children. in the nationalist view, all other races and cultures are truly inferior. this may be a hard concept for many Americans to accept as we have an entirely different culture base and ideal. please understand, I am not attempting to stir up but, as an American, to say I heartily agree with the idea that we must stop and realize that this is an international environment and what Americans assume is 'right' and 'wrong', though no one wants to argue the point or try to say that this way or that is 'better', only different, may be considered chauvinistic by many. in this light, on the whole. I find the attitude of many non-Americans to be patient and tolerant, which is good to a point, but, knowing what I know, I can't help but realize that, when we really get going on a subject like this, that many are either just keeping their mouth shut and thinking 'that's just how they are' ala 'The Ugly American' or else patronizing us. patriotism is different than nationalism in this sense. we think our country is great but we don't do so at the expense of other countries because we can't! we are *made* from other countries! it is therefore difficult for many Americans to realize that nationalism almost requires this derogatory perspective of those who are different. I know there is much I don't understand and I'm sure I will piss somebody off and get raked over the coals for saying what I have but this is what I see. thanks to a very generous lister I have recently seen a video of Joni being interviewed on Canadian tv and it was really very interesting. she described herself as being 'bi-national' but followed that up by stating emphatically that she lives in BC... and you could easily see that she was showing respect to her culture, assuring them that she is a part. I know she has also been very outspoken but she mentioned this two or three times making sure the record is clear that she is Canadian and keeps a residence there. I guess my point is that Joni is Canadian. she may have lived in CA for so many years but when she was a little girl... when she was learning who she is... she was learning that she is a Canadian girl from the prairie and she has her place and her cast culturally and socially and she always will. when she came to the US I'm sure she embraced many of our ideals and I know she has demonstrated her concern for and championed many of them but I think is a mistake to forget her background or to view her as someone who would naturally agree with any and all American ideals, not that I think she is tradition bound, I don't, but I just don't think I am culturally equipped to comprehend her. personally I would not even begin to try to venture a guess as to what she means regarding the 'four great races', I'll leave that to you smart guys. I would want a full explanation straight from Joni herself and even then I'd probably have a bunch of questions. ;o) pat ps: (former civil rights activist, btw) NP: Borderline Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 06:33:33 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Joni's World View matt asked: "But, was she saying that she disapproved of contemporary culture's downfall, or approved of it?" I know where I'd place MY bets... Joni is an artist... ever heard of the dark ages? ;o) pat NP: S&L from HOSL demo Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:10:53 -0600 From: Kate Subject: joni's viewpoints One thing I have heard Joni say, which disappointed me and lowered my opinion of her a notch, was when she performed at the Edmonton Folk Festival about six years ago. She said "I am not a feminist." Well Excuse Me! What is a feminist? Someone who believes in social, political, and economic equality for both sexes. (it's in the damn dictionary.)What kind of person doesn't support that? One who thinks feminism is all about man-bashing and bra-burning, I'd guess. Kate ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:12:40 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints Hi kate-this is one example of why I don't iodolise anyone anymore. Not that i ever really have but I did have a thing for carly and Joni in the past. TRill it dawn4ed on me they wre only human. And what if I got to kbnow too much aboutt hem and didn't like them? That would not be so good. Or what if they held views I found abhorrent? I enjoy the music much much more not knowing too much about either of them. That way they can be just what my imagination says they are. Just imagine if your absolute favourite artist turns out to be some horrendous bigot, or a nasty piece of work?(before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I am not suggesting this is so of either Carly or Joni!) Far better not to know! Kate wrote: > One thing I have heard Joni say, which disappointed me and > lowered my opinion of her a notch, was when she performed at > the Edmonton Folk Festival about six years ago. She said "I > am not a feminist." Well Excuse Me! What is a feminist? > Someone who believes in social, political, and economic > equality for both sexes. (it's in the damn dictionary.)What > kind of person doesn't support that? One who thinks feminism > is all about man-bashing and bra-burning, I'd guess. > > Kate - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:39:29 EDT From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: The Healing Power of Joni's Music Angshuman Dasgupta wrote the following: << Not one song goes by without me thinking that the world would be a much poorer place without her. >> That just about says it all. I am sincerely sorry to hear about all of your losses. As someone who has personally experienced the healing powers of Joni's work, I can very much relate to the impact it can have. When I am struggling with life's many detours, I draw strength from it's wisdom, inspiration from it's imagery, and hope from it's beauty. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:01:08 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Joni's World View Astrology also takes into account that there are four main elements, fire, earth, air and water. I also did a little research about Aboriginal spirituality. This is what I found. Aboriginal religion or spirituality is "The Dreaming," the spirit of the land. They respected their land in a sacred way. They believed they were part of their land. They also believed that they were always here and that they come from the land and that their ancestors watch over us today to ensure that laws are not broken. Just a little food for thought. Rose (in New Jersey) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:50:16 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints Kate wrote: > One thing I have heard Joni say, which disappointed me and > lowered my opinion of her a notch, was when she performed >at the Edmonton Folk Festival about six years ago. She said >"I am not a feminist." Well Excuse Me! What is a feminist? > Someone who believes in social, political, and economic > equality for both sexes. (it's in the damn dictionary.)What > kind of person doesn't support that? One who thinks >feminism is all about man-bashing and bra-burning, I'd >guess. Many have wondered about this. On the surface it seems very ironic since so much of Joni's life and music is a living example of this dictionary definition. My feeling is that her remarks have to be put into a larger perspective, especially when they seem so at odd with eveything else we know about her as a person. I've also always felt she just doesn't want to be bound by any one specific "label" because they can be limiting. A point I made long ago on the list was that if she had labeled as a feminist at the start of the modern movement 30 years ago, it is likely that she would have been pigeonholed by the public, the press and the record biz. Once she was pigeonholed, it is likely that far fewer people would have listened to her and any messages she wanted to convey in her songs. It may have been self-defeating for her. Looking beyond whether or not the "label" itself represents a good ideal, the concept of categorization, in general, can be limiting and not progressive. There are a number of articles on the JMDL site where Joni discusses why she does not want to be labeled a feminist. In some of the articles, I think she is taken out of context but many other give a clearer perspective on her remarks. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:20:40 -0600 From: John Downes Subject: Mitchell family at Saskatoon... I was just reading over some of the reports from Saskatoon. Coyote Rick mentions cringing when hearing the speakers welcoming Joni and the Mitchell family. At first I though they were making a mistake in referring to Bill and Myrtle Anderson as "the Mitchell family", but upon reflection, I am 90% sure that the family who was there as representatives of the descendants of "Papa" Mendel were also named Mitchell. Isn't that a strange "coinky-dink". John in Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:31:34 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Grace of My Heart (tiny bit o' JC) PPeterson4@aol.com wrote: >>Watching the DVD of Grace of My Heart, which is one of my favorite movies - >> ... I also miss the Kristen Vigaro version of God Give My >>Strength - why couldn't they have included it along with the Elvis >>Costello version? Does anyone know if the Kristen Vigaro version is >>available anywhere? Yes, it's on a somewhat goofy compilation on Rhino called "Love Scene." It's a collection of disparate tracks from movies, juxtaposing Kristen Vigard's version of God Give Me Strength with songs performed by Aretha Franklin, Gin Blossoms, Percy Sledge, Jimmy Durante, X, Rickie Lee Jones, P.M. Dawn, Lisa Loeb, etc. Strange company, but I bought it solely for the Vigard version, which I feel is vastly superior to Costello's, who is the completely wrong singer for the tunes he wrote with Bacharach. As much as I love those songs, Costello is not the "singer's singer" needed for Bacharach's beautiful but treacherous melodies ... you can hear him straining and working too hard when what is needed is ease and grace, which Vigard provides with aplomb ... she sings the shit out of it. On a few phrases her voice sounds like a funkier, less polished Karen Carpenter. And, even though I do love Bacharach's lushly orchestrated version, the solo piano Vigard version gave me gooseflesh. >>The final song in the film, "A Boat on the Sea", which is co-written >>by Larry Klein is such a Joni homage, with her piano style and >>harmonies from the LOTC and Blue period, that I wonder if in fact >>it's Joni playing piano on the track. Probably not, but it must have >>been fun for Klein to produce something like it given his >>relationship to Joni. Did anyone ever hear anything about the >>production of the song? I dug this song a lot, and it does sound like vintage Joni; Klein really copped some archetypal Joni-isms, circa the For the Roses era. But it's not Joni on piano. Looking at the list of musicians on the soundtrack CD (it's not specified who played on what song), it could be one of several: most likel y Jim Cox or Mike Melvoin, but I wonder if it could even be Klein. Speaking of Klein copping Joni-isms, it seems to me that his arrangement of Man From Mars is vintage Court and Spark, right down to the swooning pedal steel guitar ending chord. I love this movie, and the music, and Illeana Douglas is outstanding in the title role. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:38:53 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Sings the Blues In a message dated 7/16/00 7:02:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: << cassy wrote: >For the life of me I cannot recall where I read that Joni was sued over the song "Furry Sings the Blues" that she and Neil had visited with Furry on a trip to Memphis and that while they were there, Furry had been playing his harmonica and that Joni and Neil had used those licks in the recorded release, ostensibly to pay him "homage." I have a recollection that Joni was sued for royalties. Does anyone else recall this? Do you know where it was originally reported?> it sounds likely... this is 'from the horses mouth' on JMDL at: >> What IS likely is that Furry threatened to sue, made the comments alleging Joni used his name improperly and dropped the whole thing once he contacted an attorney, who most likely would have told Furry he would be wasting his time, effort and money to pursue such a ridiculous lawsuit. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:41:52 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Yvette in English Ray & Cathy wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to what Yvette > means when she says, "Please have this little bit of instant bliss". > This is such a pretty song, but I just don't get it. > > Cathy in Oregon Hi, Well, nobody has answered this one yet, so here's my take. I would imagine the line refers to smoking, and in particular the cigarette Yvette has just lit, which she then offers to the man in the song. She regards taking a puff as a piece of instant bliss. The track is my third favourite Joni song, after My Secret Place and Hejira. But please, let's not start the smoking thread again!!!!! Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:48:34 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Grace of My Heart (tiny bit o' JC) Fred, Thanks for sharing this info...I was so disappointed the Vigard version wasn't included on the GoMH soundtrack. It also gave me goosebumps, absolutely stunning. Costello's take is okay, but I agree with your comments. I will have to search for this CD now, I simply MUST have that version on CD! :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:56:32 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints In a message dated 7/16/00 12:11:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, catman@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: << Just imagine if your absolute favourite artist turns out to be some horrendous bigot, or a nasty piece of work?(before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I am not suggesting this is so of either Carly or Joni!) Far better not to know! >> As Joni has said about reading music, "Ignorance is bliss," eh? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:54:50 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Mitchell family at Saskatoon... John writes: << Coyote Rick mentions cringing when hearing the speakers welcoming Joni and the Mitchell family. At first I though they were making a mistake in referring to Bill and Myrtle Anderson as "the Mitchell family", but upon reflection, I am 90% sure that the family who was there as representatives of the descendants of "Papa" Mendel were also named Mitchell. >> Who knows???? Maybe he was talking about you folks from the JMDL :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:11:15 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's world view (kinda long?) Pat, You make some very interesting points that I did not consider. When I first read these remarks from her, I thought, "eesch, how archaic" but in a larger world view they may not be archaic at all. I haven't lived in other countries but I've worked for a number of foreign corporations and also worked on lawsuits involving them. Some have come and set up business in the U.S. either not knowing about the equal/civil rights laws here, or know them and deliberately choose to ignore them. I've personally seen examples of officially sanctioned and systemized discrimination in some of these cases. Even as the courts are taking these businesses to task, their principals are still confounded as to why they are in trouble. Under some of the current U.S. federal laws or common employment policies, Joni's remarks alone, no matter how well-intentioned, if stated in the work place, could get her into trouble. I think a lot of Americans, myself included, at times tend to assume the whole world is reading from the same page. The tendency to assume that can be viewed as both part of our arrogance and our charm ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:35:27 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Snakes & Ladders I was watching a campy Ken Russell movie on the Sci-Fi Channel yesterday called 'The Lair of the White Worm.' During one scene of the movie, the seductive priestess of the snake god is playing a board game with one of her victims which is a variation of 'Chutes & Ladders.' Instead of chutes the board had - you guessed it - snakes. The name of the game, naturally, was 'Snakes and Ladders.' This movie came out in 1988. CMIARS came out in 1988. Now the question is: Did Russell take the 'Snakes & Ladders' name from Joni or did Joni get it from Russell? Or is this just another one of those quirky, cosmic coincidences? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:25:02 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/16/00 12:11:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > catman@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: > > << Just imagine if your absolute favourite artist turns out to be some > horrendous bigot, or a nasty piece of work?(before anyone gets their > knickers in a twist, I am not suggesting this is so of either Carly or > Joni!) > Far better not to know! >> > > As Joni has said about reading music, "Ignorance is bliss," eh? sometimes, yes! > > > Paul I - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:28:53 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Snakes & Ladders Snakes and Ladders is a game very popular here in britain. i played it as a child. it invloves a board and dice. the board is numbered squares with snakes and ladders on it. land on a snake and you slide backwards, land on a ladder and you climb upwards. The person who gets to the last square first is the winner. Mark or Travis wrote: > I was watching a campy Ken Russell movie on the Sci-Fi Channel > yesterday called 'The Lair of the White Worm.' During one scene of > the movie, the seductive priestess of the snake god is playing a board > game with one of her victims which is a variation of 'Chutes & > Ladders.' Instead of chutes the board had - you guessed it - snakes. > The name of the game, naturally, was 'Snakes and Ladders.' > > This movie came out in 1988. CMIARS came out in 1988. Now the > question is: Did Russell take the 'Snakes & Ladders' name from Joni > or did Joni get it from Russell? Or is this just another one of those > quirky, cosmic coincidences? > > Mark in Seattle - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:08:55 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: re: Yvette in English Hi Cathy, First off Cathy, almost all lyric examination is interpretative. This song, we learned in interviews, started as phrases in David Crosby's head. He sent them to Joni and asked her to help him with it. She threw out much of it and kept some phrases. There is no Yvette. For this song, we are free to bring whatever interpretation we feel is appropriate. For me, it's very similar to understanding a dream. Sometimes, this process of unraveling the metaphors takes place automatically for many people, as they listen to the story and chord changes. Sometimes the meanings are deepened by hearing the story (ies) behind the songs. This is why Joni's interviews (many are available on the tape trees) are so enriching for metaphor-enjoyers like me. Sometimes, the meanings of metaphors shift, like when Joni revisited "Both Sides Now" as a middle-aged woman. "Please have this little bit of instant bliss". This line is even richer if you include the context just before it: "Sweetly in English, she says, 'Please have this little bit of instant bliss.' " So, what does the line evoke in you, Cathy? Head scratching. Sorry, you already said that. :) You want to hear about some OTHER opinions. Okay, here's my two cent opinion. I'd like to begin earlier in the song. When we first meet Yvette, she's "skittering sideways like a cat" then later, she's "fumbling with a foreign tongue (language)". She's having an imperfect day when "Her cigarette burns her fingertip, As it falls like fireworks She curses it." All of these examples show that she's bravely struggling. Imperfect. Damaged even. Then we get to your line, the PUNCHLINE of the song in my opinion (IMO). "Sweetly in English, she says, 'Please have this little bit of instant bliss.' " She's struggling to deliver a little bit of perfection. bliss is perfect joy. When ever a word in a lyric has you stumped, fall back on its dictionary definition. Songwriters love words (right Kate?). Generally when they pick a rare, underused word like "bliss", its because it conveys _exactly_ what they are trying to say. So, falling back on the dictionary definition is actually the most direct route to their meaning! [Let's simply this discussion of word choice by excluding sarcasm because there is little or none in "Yvette".] So, in one sentence, Yvette is struggling with lots of earthly challenges because she has a noble, higher goal in mind; she want to deliver a small tidbit of perfect... joy. One of the great mysteries of Life to me, is why is so interesting to listen to "Yvette In English" and so boring to read a one sentence summary of "Yvette In English"???? Cathy in Oregon wrote: I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to what Yvette means when she says, "Please have this little bit of instant bliss". All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu PS. God bless and thanks for asking this question. I love this song! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:29:39 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: Snakes & Ladders The game to me has always been 'snakes and ladders'. I have never heard of chutes and ladders until you mentioned it here just now. Is it an American thing to call it chutes and ladders? Perhaps in a Canadian world it is called snakes and ladders too... Jamie Zoob - ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark or Travis To: joni mitchell Sent: 16 July 2000 21:35 Subject: Snakes & Ladders > I was watching a campy Ken Russell movie on the Sci-Fi Channel > yesterday called 'The Lair of the White Worm.' During one scene of > the movie, the seductive priestess of the snake god is playing a board > game with one of her victims which is a variation of 'Chutes & > Ladders.' Instead of chutes the board had - you guessed it - snakes. > The name of the game, naturally, was 'Snakes and Ladders.' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:41:08 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints Hi Kate I must stick up for Our Joan on this point. In an interview she held in London round about the same time she said to 'The Late Show' presenter (I think this in one of the video trees) Tracy McCloud that she isn't a feminist as the feminists she has known have been man-haters, far too apartheid, and that she has always been in the company of men since the beginning. I can see what she means in that. She means she has never allied herself to the more extreme views of feminism and feminists because she has never felt like hating men, despite being a woman in a male-dominated industry. Also, Bob Dylan thinks that Joni's "Kinda like a man".... All the best Jamie Zoob - ----- Original Message ----- From: Kate To: Sent: 16 July 2000 16:10 Subject: joni's viewpoints > One thing I have heard Joni say, which disappointed me and > lowered my opinion of her a notch, was when she performed at > the Edmonton Folk Festival about six years ago. She said "I > am not a feminist." Well Excuse Me! What is a feminist? > Someone who believes in social, political, and economic > equality for both sexes. (it's in the damn dictionary.)What > kind of person doesn't support that? One who thinks feminism > is all about man-bashing and bra-burning, I'd guess. > > Kate > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 16:19:29 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Snakes & Ladders > The game to me has always been 'snakes and ladders'. I have never heard of > chutes and ladders until you mentioned it here just now. Is it an American > thing to call it chutes and ladders? Perhaps in a Canadian world it is > called snakes and ladders too... > The one I grew up with was Chutes & Ladders. Maybe Americans found the snakes to be a bit too scary for young kiddies. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:22:02 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Yvette in English Well, there you go...seems I was way off-base! This proves my oft-felt gut feeling that I just don't (or can't) ever truly get under the skin of a song in the way the likes of Jim (and many others) are able to. I see incisive, wonderfully articulated analyses like this quite a lot on mailing lists, and frankly they are beyond my own realm of capability. It's just as well not everyone is like me! For what it's worth, the ambience of the song and that gorgeous woozy keyboard sound that gloses over the whole track send shivers up my spine every time I listen to it. I'm hearing the lyrics, or what I've always assumed them to infer, at little more than face-value. The picture it's always conjured up in my mind is perhaps a lazy one : guy takes walk near the Parisian river (possibly in the early evening), and meets this strange yet captivating (young) woman. Who smokes. She makes a hash of lighthing her ciggie, swears, and the offers the lit cigarette to the man..."here, have this little bit of instant bliss". As I said, lazy, but it's worked for me every time :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:10:25 -0700 (PDT) From: bohodan Subject: re: Yvette in English - --- Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > "Sweetly in English, she says, 'Please have this > little bit of instant > bliss.' " > She's struggling to deliver a little bit of > perfection. bliss is perfect > joy. Hi I think it's interesting this choice of the word bliss, and what you say.. you think of heavenly bliss, joy, celestial bodies etc, and then at the same time in the song there are the undertones of earthly desire and sexual tension "uninsulated wires laid bare" the "feline" images, heat and "cigarette burning". So maybe with "Bliss" "Ecstasy", both sensual and divine aspects are touched on in this song maybe?... And there's pretty intoxicating atmosphere. The music has a really moody feel: + "burgundy", "black water and the amber lights"... ~ Well it always seemed to me this way: so bracket this and the above with an "IMHO" : )~ "If I were a painter Picasso said, I'd paint this girl from toe to head"... If a painter were to make a portrait of "Yvette", it would be his Version of her, and the things he sees in her: his representation, a translation of sorts. (And the song is so much about boundaries and language.) So likewise throughout the song the guy makes an interpretation of Yvette -all she says and does.. We don't get to see her as she is, but rather only through his eyes, and in his mind and to his way of thinking her gestures are some kind of sexual invitation. "PLEASE have this" IMO isn't so much what she literally says, it's more like a way of summing how he sees her. How she connects for him across the despite their different tongues across borders of language. ( pheww - does that sound a tad 'pretentious'? :-) Well, "Borderline" is the song before it on the album... :) I notice Joni phrases it not as "Yvette sweetly says in English" but "Yvette in English saying", so that it's rendered more along the lines of : "Yvette seems to be Saying to him in his language; or-from-his-perspective etc". Seems to me to be all about an encounter and this particular viewer's interpretation of the situation and how he reads the signals he sees, right. "She sticks in his mind like that". We don't learn that much about her: she travels into the story, then disappears and he's left with this image in his head and that line repeating. << Well there's my rookie 2 cents/p/fr/ worth (or whatever currency... : ) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:06:52 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Yvette in English Jason, How is what you said different from what I said? Not by much! I never knew what the bliss was- of course it was the cigarette! What a twit I am! (No news to some JMDLers!) Thanks Jason. All the best, Jim > The picture it's always conjured up in my mind is perhaps a lazy one : > guy takes walk near the Parisian river (possibly in the early evening), > and meets this strange yet captivating (young) woman. Who smokes. She > makes a hash of lighthing her ciggie, swears, and the offers the lit > cigarette to the man..."here, have this little bit of instant bliss". ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:02:54 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: feminsim & courageous Pat Hi, the other Kate here. I have to say, at risk of being severely scorched, that I completely get what Joni means when she says she is not a feminist. I used to think that about myself too. Not because I didn't believe in the underlying values of feminism but because I believed that the word itself was much too narrow & limiting for my beliefs or the way I chose to live as an individual. And on another subject, today is Sunday & I have been thinking of Pat, the courageous one all day. Hooray for your honesty & courage & standing up for the equality of others!!!!!!!!!! Kate Bennett Singer/Songwriter Santa Barbara, CA www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide http://allmusic.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:08:34 -0500 From: "Michael Bird" Subject: Nickel Chief's Surreal Joni Dream I'm at Joni Mitchell's house with my girlfriend and Don Freed. Joni's been passing around a liter of Jim Beam, imploring us all to "HAVE ANOTHER! HAVE ANOTHER" in an enthusiastic echo of "Smokin'." We obediently get drunk. She and my girlfriend begin playing an elaborate card game that seems to be more about creating pretty designs with the cards than anything else. They hoot and holler and "yahoo!" and I'm not sure who's winning. Don Freed and I smoke a cigarette. All I can really see of him is his profile, like in the painting "Edmonton" in the TTT booklet. The night is wearing on, it's late, but I'm having too much fun hanging out with Joni. I want to play her fun card game too, so I knock on the door of the bathroom. She's inside taking a shower, but she floats out backwards from behind the curtain and through the bathroom door in a black bikini, looking just like she does in the HOSL inner photo. In midair she floats. "You have to teach me the card game!" I say, smiling. "Oh, you don't know the rules?" she says. "Maybe another time. It's getting late, you know." In mid-air, she swims away. Instantly I'm sure I've overstayed my welcome. My girlfriend and I borrow Joni's big blue globe of the world (a marbled bowling ball?), and try to figure out how to travel the thousands and thousands of miles back home. In my dweems we get weally dwunk on whiskey, Nickel Chief P.S. In the morning I tell my girlfriend about the dream. "Joni and I are buddies," she informs me, and I believe her. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:24:11 -0400 From: "Linda Montelione" Subject: Yvette In English What a tasty little song to analyse! First, of course, Yvette never spoke English. What she said was, "Avez-vous un allumette?" What he understood was that she was coming on to him, in plain English saying "Please have a little bit of instant bliss." In the second verse, "He's fumbling with a foreign tongue." Could be an awkward first kiss. It must be, or Joni would not need to say in the next line that he's "Reaching for words and drawing blanks." She's not one to be redundant, or to over-explain. In the last verse -- Joni depicts Yvette as a "wary little stray" -- quite a condescending comment. I picture "him" philosophically pondering right and wrong within himself. "The bony bridge (the bridge of his own nose) between left (wrong?) and right." I remember reading somewhere that Joni and Larry made the decision to end their marriage on the day the recording of Turbulent Indigo began. After the first listening to TI on the day of its release I sensed all was not well in the Mitchell-Klein marriage. "Last Chance Lost" says it all. Perhaps "Yvette In English" depicts how Joni's observation of many "wary little strays" that were after Larry. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:47:47 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Four Directions, etc Okay, at this point I do not quite remember what the context was that Joni used her statement about the 4 races. And I cannot second guess what she was trying to say by her comment. I would imagine this would be a great interview question. However, I am very familiar with the ideas that she was referring to. The best way to describe it is that it is similar to the symbolic characteristics given to animals. They are like archtypes or gifts. This is a kind of thinking that is mythological more than literal. I don't know if I have made it any clearer but I wanted to bring the discussion back to where it started. Hopefully. Kate Bennett Singer/Songwriter Santa Barbara, CA www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide http://allmusic.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:59:58 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints Kate wrote: > < lowered my opinion of her a notch, was when she performed at > the Edmonton Folk Festival about six years ago. She said "I > am not a feminist." Well Excuse Me! What is a feminist? > Someone who believes in social, political, and economic > equality for both sexes. (it's in the damn dictionary.)What > kind of person doesn't support that? One who thinks feminism > is all about man-bashing and bra-burning, I'd guess.>> and Mags from her place of silence wrote: I had a sociology professor a couple of years ago who claimed that she was not a feminist, and yet she always spouted off feminist pedagogy, politic, whatever you wish to call it. Her read on feminism was that it was something that she lived and breathed as a part of her every day existence. I always admired that in that she felt she didnt have to live up to anyone else's image or definition of what it meant to be a feminist. God knows, the media has one hell of a time misconstruing the whole thing. for what its worth, those are a few of my thoughts. back to the cocoon, Mags np: marcie/nathan franeer, like hearing it for the first time. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:04:03 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: Yvette in English Jim L'Hommedieu posted: > > This line is even richer if you include the context just before it: > > "Sweetly in English, she says, 'Please have this little bit of instant > bliss.' And even sweeter if you imagine this said by Claudine Longet!! Ranger Rick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:50:23 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: The Maidstone/Saskatoon/Mendel video tape Hi everyone! It's great to be back, but I have a lot of catching up to do! Call me crazy. It's 2:30 AM here (but it's really only 11:30 Vancouver time, which is where I was this morning.) I "just" finished the Maidstone/Mendel video Master, and it's really cool!! I just couldn't wait another minute to see how/if everything came out, and how it would squeeze into a 2-hour tape. First of all, it fit absolutely perfectly onto the tape! It couldn't have worked out better if I had planned it. Second of all, I must make some disclaimers. The video camera I was working with is extremely small, great for traveling all over Canada, but not so great when you need to hold it steady for VERY long periods of time. Thus, there is quite a bit of camera shake, even though I was holding it sometimes with my arm completely asleep. I added the CBC National News segment on the show, because it is fun to watch. (A million thank you's to Cassy for not only taping it, but sending it so fast that it was waiting here when I got back! MAJOR HUGS!!!) I must say, it is most definitely *not* the most flattering view of me. But I digress.... So, as an amateur video it is great fun to see everything, and have a chance to experience what a dozen very lucky Joni Mitchellites were able to experience first hand. We are still a little bit away from sign ups, but it won't be too long, I promise! A few things..... 1) Please e-mail me right away, if you haven't already, if you are willing to be a branch for this tree. I am getting concerned that a few people are doing a lot of the work. I don't want to get people like Jim and Bob overworked so much that they have to stop helping out. Since "many hands make light work," if you have 2 Hi-Fi VCR's, and can dub some sets, it will help us all out in the end. Also, if you have the means to dub cassettes or CD's, maybe you could help out there as well. 2) I do not seek any monetary gain for the video trees, nor do any of the branches/sources that I know of. However, I feel it is very important to support Jonimitchell.com and jmdl.com, for without Jim and Les we most likely would not even have the connections to be doing/receiving these trees. So in that vain, it would be greatly appreciated to show your gratitude for these incredible videos/cassettes/CD's by sending a check in any amount, payable to Jim Johanson and/or Les Irvin to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA 01983 Thanks and hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #297 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?