From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #249 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, June 15 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 249 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni and Steve (md2) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: William Shatner Sings........ [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Big Sur '68 [Steve Dulson ] Re: William Shatner Sings........ [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: William Shatner Sings........ [Don Rowe ] Re: William Shatner Sings..... [Christopher Otterbeck ] Re: W.S. Sings or "Slouching Towards Badtaste" [peves@marlboro.edu] Re: [peves@marlboro.edu] Re: More Metheny -- What the Hell Is Jazz? ["Michael Paz" ] Re: In her own words [RandyRemote ] Re: Metheny/G & Aimee Mann [Catherine ] Re: Dogs that hunt...... [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Lawyers, Loan Sharks...and Insurance Executives [Ken Corral ] Feddie ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #248 ["Michael Bird" ] Re: Joni in Maclean's [AngelinoCoyote@aol.com] I know where it is... [Michael Paz ] Re: Steve and Joni [Howard Motyl ] Re: Steve and Joni [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Just Ice ["william" ] [none] ["william" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:17:19 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Steve (md2) In a message dated 6/14/00 4:04:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 6/14/00 9:51:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: << They also tend to conceptualize their music horizontally rather than vertically. >> What does this mean ?? >> They don't think well on their feet? ------------------------------ Date: Wed Jun 14 16:23:32 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: William Shatner Sings........ <> Thanks to the OTHER Bob M., I remember a dreadful remake of "Downtown", she might have done "Paris", I just don't recall it... Bob NP: Earl Bostic, "Blue Moon" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:28:13 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Big Sur '68 Irish Philip wrote: >I think the guy might be John Phillips. If he was wearing a silly hat and >kaftan I'd be certain. Nope. Not even John in "normal" clothes. And I don't think I ever saw him without a beard in those days. >I wonder what they're singing. Me too! It looks like Joan is singing lead, and the others backing her up. Joni can't play along because she's in some weird tuning. What's that stuck in her belt? At first I thought - pack of Kleenex, but now I'm convinced it's a pack of cigarettes. >The girl is not Mimi. Whew! At least we agree on that! :) ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed Jun 14 16:29:58 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: William Shatner Sings........ <> I'm sure she wouldn't use that exact verbage, but I don't think she INTENDED for that project to stand with some of her other projects - I think alot of it was just some things she wanted to get out of her system. She did that and now doesn't feel the need to revisit those societal comment songs. I'd still love to hear her re-produce some of that material! Bob NP: Earl Bostic, "Harlem Nocturne" (one of the 'coolest' meoldies ever written!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: William Shatner Sings........ Tacts-free Paul writes: > Maybe so, but don't you find it curious that Joni, > who I think we can agree > only performs the songs of hers she likes best, > RARELY if ever performs > anything from DED. > Isn't that confirmation from the "goddess" herself > that she thinks DED sucks, > or at least that she has far less pride in that > "child" than the rest of hers? Well according to Joni, she only sings older songs of hers that she claims to "still identify with" -- rather than "like best." Up until recently, she wasn't performing huge whole-cloth sections of her catalog, with numerous numbers from STAS, LOTC, Blue - -- even FTR, until just recently -- absent entirely from her stage repetiore. So pardon the pun, but that argument is a dog that won't hunt. Unless, of course, you're prepared to accept the possiblity that Joni thinks about as much of her early material as she does the songs on DED ... nah, don't go there! Don Rowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:43:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Otterbeck Subject: Re: William Shatner Sings..... Mabel Mercer also tortures BSN, sounding like Mrs. Miller (anybody remember her?). Isn't Mrs Miller the one who did the awful rendition of Downtown???? Christopher NP Coyote __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:57:30 -0400 From: peves@marlboro.edu Subject: Re: William Shatner Sings..... Yes! Oh my Lord! I forgot all about Mrs. Miller. (wonder why?)Whoa. How did she happen anyway? Peg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:03:11 -0400 From: peves@marlboro.edu Subject: Re: Lower Levels of Hell/Nyro I hear ya'guy. Just keep on keepin' on - being who (what) you are. I'm new here too. And sensitive but I'm gettin' the hang of it and enjoying the personalities hereabouts. You will too. "Every stick has two ends" - and all that shit.And there is alot of non-Joni relevance here. Despite our quirks and flaws of communication we mean well. Look at why we are here! Stay. Peg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:05:59 -0400 From: peves@marlboro.edu Subject: Re: William Shatner Sings........ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:14:37 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: William Shatner Sings........ From: "Kakki" Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:22:32 -0700 Bob wrote: > And here's a cool side note - Leslie is sending me a tape >that Jim J gave her which is a collection of covers that Wally >had! So even Wally is contributing - bless his heart! Anybody >have his address in Heaven so I can send him his >complimentary CD? :~D Wow, this is very cool and wonderful! It must be a treasure. Thanks to Leslie. And thank you Bob for the latest installment. ;-) I'm anxious with anticipation for the big wheel o' cheeze and have got a fresh bottle of Pepto-Bismol ready and waiting to accompany it! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:13:07 -0400 From: peves@marlboro.edu Subject: Re: W.S. Sings or "Slouching Towards Badtaste" Go girl! Peg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:24:58 -0400 From: peves@marlboro.edu Subject: Re: Hey! Thanks Guy. Yep. That's as far as we go on this one and it's okay 'cause we expressed what was true for us and even Hell, we even agreed on parts. It's good. I was feelin a bit lonesome on it. I admit. Peg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:30:36 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Re: More Metheny -- What the Hell Is Jazz? Harper Lou- you are welcome!. At least we have the whole story as opposed to the paraphrasing that was going on. I'll tell you the longer this thread goes on the more distasteful it becomes. There are ALOT of inconsistancies in Metheny's approach to this matter and you bring up alot of good arguments and positions about the "What is jazz?" thing, as does my friends Mr. Lahm and Sire Pat, et al. BUT, sitting in judgement of someone elses work takes a hell of alot of balls. Criticizing someones work is one thing, but passing it off as nothing is quite another story. Does that mean that bizillionns of people that buy Kenny G. are slugs? He is not only offending Mr G., but the bizzillions of slugs that buy his records. Metheny's catalog is quite impressive on many levels and musically he crosses over into alot of genres including the non-swinging rock. I really love MOST of his work except for a few. His release called "Zero Tolerance for Silence" was totally unaccessible for me and my taste in music runs wide and deep. Is that release JAZZ because it was improvisational? I'm not sure, but I would fight to the death to defend Metheny's right as an artist to release and call it whatever he wants to call it. I wonder waht he will do next a "more popular than Jesus" speech, or start ripping up Celine, BSB, N'Sync, Britney next. (that was joke!!!). I don't think we have heard the last of this from many different sides and I wonder what is happening right now on the KGDL. Michael P.S. This Just In. I hear Kenny G. is going to do an overdub recording over a collection of Pat Metheny compositions. This brings new meaning to the term "killing them with kindness". (sorry I just couldn't resist) I also hear that Al Date is preparing an essay on this topic. Stay tuned jmdl! - ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Lynch > Michael, > > Thanks for posting the entire Metheny spiel against Kenny G. > > After reading it again, I still find Metheny overly vitriolic. It's obvious > that he hates the man's approach toward music, creativity and life in > general. > David, Michael, help? Explain this! > > Kenny G changed a classic recording from a jazz great, Louis Armstrong. > But, "Wonderful World" doesn't sound like jazz to me -- it's a pop song, > pure and simple. Except for that little D-flat change, it has a very basic > chord structure. The song could be done country or turned into a polka -- > it's not that unusually difficult. > > Granted Kenny G's necrophilia might not be to everyone's taste, but, come > on, he has as much right to express his creativity as anyone else, no matter > how bad that creativity seems to some people. > > > Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:58:34 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: William Shatner Sings........ (VLJC) In a message dated 6/14/00 6:53:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << < But it does suck - you've gotta admit it, Stephen! >> > > Oh, I don't disagree with you! Now about this Aunt Ann of yours . . . > > Stephen > If that means what I think it means, that was really funny! If I misunderstood, never mind... Vince >> I don't know, what do you think it means? Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:06:31 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Esalen in '68 I think we have a consensus...it DEFINITELY is or isn't Mimi Farina, and the guy is Richard 'Robert' Farina, who was dead at the time. RR Steve Dulson wrote: > Susan wrote: > > > I am inclined to believe that it > >may have been Mimi (Baez's sister) and her Sir Gallahad. I know others > >disagree but it makes sense to me. > > I disagree because I've seen Mimi perform 8 times, seen her hosting > the Bread and Roses festival, have (I think) everything she's > recorded, and it's NOT MIMI. :) > > Joan's song "Sweet Sir Galahad" was about Mimi's relationship with > Myron Melvin, a San Francisco DJ to whom she was briefly married. > The song celebrates Mimi's emergence from her mourning of Richard. > In the movie "Festival at Big Sur" Joan sings the song to scenes > of Mimi and Myron frolicking in the grass. And no, that ain't Myron > in the photo either. > > And Pat Henry wrote: > > >the woman (definitely) is Mimi Farina > > See above, Pat. > > Sorry to sound vehement about this, but the Farinas are people > who have loomed large in my life. > > Best wishes to all, > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:08:15 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: In her own words Okay, so who is Feddie? Kate Bennett wrote: > Here are a few quotes I was just reading that echo some recent discussions: > > Kenny G isn't the only one with pitch problems-- > > "Feddie thinks I have perfect pitch. I don't. I think I have intermittent > perfect pitch. I have spells of it. Which is horrible, because there are no > perfect tones out there and you get driven crazy by the undulations. I'll go > put my heroes on - I'll play Miles, and his pitch is all over the place." > > Who deserves to play what-- > > "Charles called to me from his death bed and I just had to do that, for my > own education in music. Back then I didn't even like Charles's music. It was > blues-based, and I wasn't into the blues. And it was cacophonous. I became a > fan, of course, but there were a lot of jazz guys saying "Hey, you don't > even like his music. Why'd he send for you?" But I really liked him so > much." > > Kate Bennett > Singer/Songwriter > www.katebennett.com > > - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:14:43 -0700 From: Catherine Subject: Re: Metheny/G & Aimee Mann Hi Peg, you wrote: > Of course. That's not creative energy, commenting on who you "don't like" > but IN THE CONTEXT of a whole interview who cares if Kurt or Alanis take a > hit from Joni Mitchell Ah, yes, there's the rub-- Context. A lot of the stuff she (and lots of other celebrities) says appears in isolation, completely out of context. I am thinking specifically of Joni's negative comments about Kurt Cobain that showed up a year or two ago. The Associated Press picked up a single line from some interview (which I never saw in its entirety), and ran a thirty word blurb on their website and wire service, which was picked up by newspapers nationwide, consisting of something to the effect that Joni Mitchell doesn't think much of today's songwriters, and she doesn't see what's so great about Kurt Cobain. As somebody who does see what's great about Kurt Cobain, I was pretty annoyed, and my initial reaction was to think that that sort of statement only makes Joan look like some cranky old Bel Air Andy Rooney-lady, throwing rocks at the kids. (Which, I might add, flies in the face of the many personal encounters listers have had with her, and without exception she has been warmhearted and kind and generous in person). But I didn't read the whole interview, and its quite easy for me to imagine a journalist tossing out names just to get a reaction-I can't imagine Joni sits around and fumes and obsesses about Kurt Cobain, of all people--for heaven's sake, he'd already been dead for several years when that quote appeared, so by that point was not that representative of "today's songwriters." It seems like one of the main occupations of the soulless media is to spread pettiness and invent conflict. Just look at how Judy Collins was misquoted regarding Joni--Miss Collins eloquent and heartfelt reply to this very list illustrates how the media frequently takes things out of context, or blatantly misquotes. And I substantively agree with Metheny's take on Kenny G. , but agree with Kakki that > It's probably wiser to let loose with a rant privately among friends that > putting it out for all the world to hear. It seems to me that part of the cost of celebrity is having to be careful about what you say in public forums, whether to the press or on the web or wherever--you do risk lawsuits and diminishing yourself. And that carefulness was what I found appealing about Aimee Mann's remarks on the Fresh Air program. Then Philip posted about Aimee Mann: > She must have mellowed because a few years ago she gave this > memorable quote on a tv rpogram about the music business. > > "It's a major surprise to me that no artist has walked up, you know, > taken the elevator to the 32nd floor of the CBS building and sprayed the > place with machine gun fire." Ooooo, I have to admit I love this quote! :-) To be fair, Mann *has* had a few bitter things to say, and produced many, many songs that take aim at the industry (Put Me on Top, I'm With Stupid, Its Not Safe, Nothing is Good Enough leap to mind), but I do believe she IS mellowing a bit. (She didn't share any homicidal visions this time :-) In recent interviews she has talked about how she first and foremost writes about relationships, and that songs that may appear to be about the music biz can and should be interpreted in the broader context of human relationships. And I do recall her recently actually using the phrase "getting over and moving beyond" her bitterness about her experience in the industry. Guess I find it refreshing to see someone like her, who has very legitimate reasons for bitterness, announcing that yeah, I got a raw deal, but time to pick myself up and forge ahead. Good for Aimee! Bye all-- catherine t in az ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:43:53 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Dogs that hunt...... In a message dated 6/14/00 4:47:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: << Unless, of course, you're prepared to accept the possiblity that Joni thinks about as much of her early material as she does the songs on DED ... nah, don't go there! Don Rowe >> Indeed, she does, and describes it in one word: Helium. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:35:15 -0700 From: Ken Corral Subject: Lawyers, Loan Sharks...and Insurance Executives I have a truly WACKY bit of info to pass along. This was heard on Los Angeles Radio station KFI 640 this afternoon. The Set up: The Phil Hendry Show is a local call in program that features fictitious guest “experts” making wildly outrages claims. Most thinking people would immediately recognize and dismiss these claims but apparently not everybody. Callers that make it on universally appear not to be in on the joke. So...today’s show featured guest expert “Margaret Bray” billed as a syndicated columnist who made the claim that 30-35% of women walking the streets of America were actually men in drag. He cited all kinds of statistics and invoked several authorities who sounded almost plausible. He began to name names. The very first name he named was “Joni Mitchell.” He provided details. He said Joni Mitchell is actually a very successful Insurance Executive named Dave Mitchell who lives in Toronto Canada. “Dave writes songs and performs as Joni Mitchell”, he said. He listed a couple more examples: Courtney Love is really a guy named Bert Ward who got tired of what he was doing and started a rock band. Bert and Kurt used a surrogate to have their child. By this time they began to take calls and as you can imagine, callers were in various stages of outrage. They protested, they argued, they sputtered...and yada, yada, yada. You may question the sport of making fun, but the claims are SO obviously untrue that the show functions as more of a comment on call-in shows. Anyway, other examples cited by Margret Bray were: Jerry Hall-no details Sigourney Weaver-A construction contractor named Bill Powers. and Linda Tripp-A gentleman named Leo Pinkerton, a U.S. Treasury Department employee. Over and Out... Ken C- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:37:15 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Joni Mitchell's glam name? (SJC) Ginchy Silverdangle! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:53:19 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: VG-8 James Phillips wrote: "I'm going to come off really ignorant here but can someone define what a "guitar orchestra" is that Joni is credited as playing on Harlem in Havana and Lead Baloon on Taming the Tiger? I would appreciate any insight as to this question." James- The patch is one that is standard in the VG-8 out of the box and it is called Crystal. It is a beautiful synth like sound. The VG-8 is a guitar modeler designed to emulate guitar sounds and amp sounds + effects. As lagniappe it had the tunings function that allows the guitar to think it's strings are detuned + or - up to 24 semitones. Best Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:58:42 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Feddie RandyRemote asked, Okay, so who is Feddie? oops, Feddie is Freddie (Fred Walecki of VG-8 fame). Here is the whole article http://www.rolandus.com/USERS/RUG/ARCHIVE/WIN_96/FEAT14_2/JONI1.HTM it also mentions Daniel Lanois Kate Bennett Singer/Songwriter www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:25:55 -0500 From: "Michael Bird" Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #248 Marcel writes, in response to Roberto's interesting Sondheim analysis ... >I know of no songwriter who rhymes less than Joni Mitchell. What is an "internal" rhyme. << They also tend to conceptualize their music horizontally rather than vertically. >> >What does this mean ?? I might attempt to answer Marcel's questions: an internal rhyme is a rhyme not falling at the end of a line; meaning, referring to a rhyming word within a line. Example of a regular rhyme, from "Good Friends": I have to come and see you/maybe once or twice a *year*/I think nothing would suit me better/than some downtown *atmosphere* ... Examples of internal rhyme, from "DJRD": Reckless this *time* on the *line* for yes, yes yes . . . it was *plane* to *train* my twin . . . Horizontal conceptualization vs. vertical is a more abstract thing ... the songs are not meant to blow you out of the water with blunt power, but they develop and blossom with a more patient, subtle narrative ... they are stories well told, with a narrative musicality to match, rather than the typical verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus structure behind the ordinary song structure ... Any experts out there want to repudiate this amateur's less-than-erudite answer? Nickel Chief ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:55:23 EDT From: AngelinoCoyote@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni in Maclean's In a message dated 6/14/00 6:31:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca writes: << Arrived home yesterday to find the June 19 edition of Maclean's ("Canada's weekly newsmagazine")... and voila - a story on Joni's art show in Saskatoon! >> Thanks, Catherine for this...seems we may end up being half a million strong at this rate. No regrets, Coyote (Rick) Casa Alegre Hollywood, California I'll be dancin' on a pony keg. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:09:14 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: I know where it is... Catherine wrote: "Here's an interesting paragraph. Who is this mysterious New Oreanian, I wonder... ;) It's gotta be Paz. I hope you've figured out where S'toon is by now!" I know where it is...I just don't know if I can afford to get there in time for the opening. So many of you are going and it just sounds like it is going to be an event not to be missed. Michael in New Orleans (still trying to get there NP-Jericho-Tara MacLean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:48:34 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: Steve and Joni > > > I know of no songwriter who rhymes less than Joni Mitchell. What is an > "internal" rhyme. > marcel > > ------------------------------ Internal rhyme happens when the word at the end of the line rhymes with a word earlier in the line, usually in the middle of the sentence. Like "She buttoned her blouse as she whispered 'You louse' There is another term "slant rhymes"--this is when the words almost rhyme but really just sound alike; like shoe and show, bike and bake. I think Joni uses a lot Does Joni really not rhyme that much? When I read this, I started going through songs in my head to see if it is true. Same Situation rhymes, Court and Spark--rhymes, Coyote, rhymes, Song for Sharon, rhymes; BYT--rhymes (some slant rhymes in this one--screendoor slam, my old man), Good Friends, rhymes; Blue--rhymes; River, rhymes; Chinese Cafe, Be Cool, Rainy Night House all rhyme. I have to ask this question: When doesn't she rhyme? And if she doesn't, is that the exception to the rule? Maybe her rhymes are more subtle than other songwriters. She certainly doesn't rhyme on every line. Howard M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 01:00:03 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Steve and Joni In a message dated 6/15/00 12:56:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, howard_scptv@interaccess.com writes: << There is another term "slant rhymes"--this is when the words almost rhyme but really just sound alike; like shoe and show, bike and bake. I think Joni uses a lot >> or possibly Rhine wine and clandestine, which is really pronounced clan-DES-tin. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:55:48 +0700 From: "william" Subject: Just Ice Would anyone like to talk about "Just Ice"? Willy the Shake ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:27:45 +0700 From: "william" Subject: [none] Sitting here tapping to you all and listening to For the Roses. Almost a tear in my eye with the beauty of it. Hejira? Forget it. Then I listen to Hejira and think forget FTR. So-o-o-o beautiful! The gift goes on. Spread Joni's light like blazes! You gotta try. If you're tired of the silent EmptyV you gotta yell it. Broken trees and elephant ivories. Awesomely beautiful. Willy the Shake in Indonesia but as the Buddha said, one doesn't have to leave one's back yard to achieve enlightenment. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #249 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?