From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #217 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, May 28 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 217 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Fw: Not getting it ["gene mock" ] Re: the "mystery" of Hissing ["Alan Lorimer" ] Re: Guitarists -- need your advice! (SJC) [Brian Gross ] Will&Grace [catman ] a newbie perspective ["Michael Bird" ] Re: a newbie perspective ["mjf 2001" ] re: Memorial Day and Fascism [Howard Motyl ] They're rockin' in New Orleans! [Marian ] Connecticut Concert May 27, 2000 [PPeterson4@aol.com] Re: Least Favorite Songs [Howard Motyl ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:31:44 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Fw: Not getting it - ----- Original Message ----- From: gene mock To: susan+rick Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Not getting it > personally i have been getting a good laugh out of this thread. trash > talking erudite bombastic joni fanatics. i think it's great!!! you > couldn't buy me off this list. vince they are joking, aren't they? pat! > your passion is terrific. howard! you compassion is admirable. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: susan+rick > To: Vince Lavieri ; > Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 11:32 AM > Subject: Re: Not getting it > > > > Vince Lavieri posted: > > > > > Shut up (I did, it works). Take it off list (I did, it works). Or > cause > > > people to quit the list (I will, and that will work too). Those are the > > > options. [snip] > > > Read again Joni's Be Cool and her 1 Corinthians 13 and if you still > don't get > > > it, I will get off the JMDL and find a place where people get it. > > > > Dear Vince > > I for one would be sad to see you quit the list over this nonsense. I say > > nonsense because that's what it seems to those of us not involved in the > > rancorous E-MAIL exchange. I have been increasingly dismayed as the battle > > degenerated into absurdity but I am heartened by Colin's latest post, a > > really noble and heart-felt attempt to set this thing straight. > > > > This line of Colin's expresses what a lot of us feel about the JMDL: > > > > >This list is the most thought provoking, interesting, growth inducing, > > >loving, supportive, antagonising, lively, funny , human thing I have ever > > >come across. > > > > It didn't take me very long to realize that this list is not just about > > Joni, it's very much about the people on the list. It's a human list with > > all a human's strengths and weaknesses. The fact that it's un-moderated > > means that events take their natural (and sometimes unpleasant) course > until > > the better side of human nature can prevail. > > > > I believe it will prevail in the end and I sure hope you stick around to > see > > that. You're a piece of humanity (with a touch of the divine!) that I > would > > hate to see the JMDL lose. > > > > All good things > > Rick > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 20:14:44 +1000 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: the "mystery" of Hissing All the discussion on this topic is great, especially Mark's analysis but I can't agree with "Boston Jim" that "The Kingpin" is just an attractive, local rich guy". To me: "Women he has taken grow old too soon He tilts their tired faces Gently to the spoon" indicates drug addiction. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Somewhere in the Jungles of Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 15:41:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Guitarists -- need your advice! (SJC) Clark wrote: > > Anyway, I am wondering if the guitar players on the > > list can tell me if there > > is anything I can do about guitar squeaks. They can > > be heard on Joni's > > albums at times, especially as her style has a lot > > of slides. Are squeaks > > the mark of an amateur or, in the words of a song we > > all know, "nothing can > > be done?" Catherine McKay wrote: > Well, call me weird, but I kind of like guitar > squeaks. They're not the mark of an amateur - they > just happen. There may be ways of cutting down on > them somewhat, but to me, they add to the music > somehow and I don't think there's much you can do to > get rid of them - consider them percussion! Not only do I also like Joni's string squeaks, but I especially miss her retuning her guitar that is so prevelant on her pre-VG8 live performances. Those two things are as much a part of Joni's music (IMHO) as the rest of it all. I hope that everyone in Nawlins is having a great time this weekend. I keep checking jmdl.com looking for pictures being posted, but so far, no such luck. :-( Later, Brian np: BSN on headphones, amazed at all the quiet little things going on in the background I hadn't heard before. ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:43:10 -0600 From: Kate Subject: joni's albums james: "Any other fans of Shadows and Lights out there?" Indeed, I have just rediscovered it -- it's been sitting in my Joni collection, largely unappreciated and unlistened-to, for lo these many years. Now I am listening to it, loving it, and as you pointed out, the version of Woodstock on it is particularly good. Mingus was my least favourite of Joni's works and it, too, is growing on me. I wish it was longer, now! I love WTRF -- and CMIAR ("sometimes change comes at you - like a broadside accident - there is chaos to the order - random things you can't prevent" -- that girl has the best way with words - not always complicated, but oh-so-simple and true!) too -- I think it is natural for people not to like particular songs on any album --- you can't expect to have a taste for everything -- but as someone said earlier, our tastes do change as we age and grow, so don't write any of J's music off! Try listening to it again in a year or two, you may be amazed and glad you gave it another chance. I know I am. I still don't like Paprika Plains, mind you. To me, most of it's just noise. But I rarely skip over it -- just in case one day it HITS ME right between the ears! I urge you people not to let the onlist bickering get to you. It's the nature of the beast. It will pass. Delete, delete, delete! It's the only censoring any of us should be doing here. Kate np: Bela Fleck - The Bluegrass Sessions ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:22:08 +0100 From: catman Subject: Will&Grace Finally saw the Joni episode last night. Now really! Of course one would have gone to the Joni concert. The script writers cheated. There was no moral reason for them to stay and miss the concert. The terms were changed for their volunterring at the last minute. to have gone to the concert would not have been breaking their commitement as they didn't commit to those terms. It wasn't Grace's voice that bothered me so much as the fact that she sang the song out of tune and the fact that she was singing a song from 26 years ago. Do they think joni has been silent all these years? I just saw what i wrote-26 years ago! Shit! Where did they go? How did that happen? Boy, the seasons are just whizzing round and round and I am damn sure dragging my feet won't help. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:58:33 -0500 From: "Michael Bird" Subject: a newbie perspective Rick wrote: > emailexists in its own little vaccum. it arrives without any of the usual cues upon which we rely to communicate, and isn't that so easy to forget? it's > just words on a screen. no gestures, no eye contact, no intonation - just > words. and it is notoriously easy to misinterpret. while a dry sense of > humor might get you a bunch of laughs around the water cooler, it usually > only results in hurt feelings in an email. so we need to be careful. and if > we feel our blood pressure rising at something we THINK the other person is > saying, what's so hard about sending an offlist message to that person in > which we say "what you wrote upset me. i am wondering if that is what you > meant to do, or if i might be misunderstanding you." ? if we all did that, > then peace would guide the planets and love would steer the stars... > > so take a deep cleansing breath. and if that doesn't work, take it off list > and duke it out in private. I've only been on this list for a few weeks. I've enjoyed most of it. I was sickened by all the "elitist" infighting on that eternal "us vs. them" thread, but ignored it, imagining silence to be the best rejection. But I was infuriated by the accusation that Colin is a "fascist." "Fascist" is not a word to be thrown around casually. From the perspective of a Newbie, who doesn't know this list (at all), you're in danger of turning us off with that kind of personal hatred. I'm in full support of the suggestion to "duke it out in private." I scroll through these e-mails every day because I love hearing about Joni. I don't want acidic personal misinterpretations and vendettas polluting my computer, wasting my time. (A Joni-centric disagreement is one thing -- that's the purpose of the list -- but a private disagreement does not need to be acted out in full view.) Three strikes and I'm out: one more private/personal display of vitriol aired publicly, and I'm outta here. (I wonder if I speak on behalf of other turned-off newbies ... I can't claim to, but I wonder how many like me are surprised by the negative energy here). Nickel Chief ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 03:17:14 GMT From: "mjf 2001" Subject: Re: a newbie perspective >Three strikes and I'm out: one more private/personal display of vitriol >aired publicly, and I'm outta here. (I wonder if I speak on behalf of >other >turned-off newbies ... I can't claim to, but I wonder how many like me are >surprised by the negative energy here). > >Nickel Chief Well, I'm not really a newbie, but I recently decided to end months of lurking and start posting more out of excitement about the upcoming concert (TOMORROW!!!) and IN SPITE of the current bickering. I'm on other lists, and have been an active member of two other fan lists (for that OTHER four-letter-named diva of mine) for a couple of years, and on-list conflict is not new to me. The potential is there for conflict wherever humans are gathered, I think.... it's the nature of the beast(s!). However, in a medium where we have only words on a screen, with no facial expressions and vocal intonations, AND the opportunity to reply instantly AND remotely (i.e. out of range of physical closeness), conflicts like this come up all too readily. I try to "delete, delete, delete" and continue to respond to posts that interest me in a way that encourages positive contributions from others. I have been discouraged here, too, when I have posted a question or idea that never gets picked up, while the conflicts go on and on.... so whaddaya gonna do? I'll tell you what I'M gonna do..... I'm going to see Joni tomorrow night! I will write my review and share it with the list and I hope that anyone who's interested enjoys it. I will continue to read and think about the posts here that challenge me, get me thinking and make me proud to be a member of this community. And as for the rest? That "delete" button works like a charm. Happy to have it! And happy to have this list. Thanks, you guys. mjf ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 00:51:03 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: re: Memorial Day and Fascism From: "Duane Corpis" As far as whether Collin is a fascist? Jim suggested that we replace "inner circle" with Jews and then suddenly we have a disconcerting fascist statement. Well, that's true. But we could play the substitution game forever: substitute "inner circle" with: greedy capitalists cockroaches people who speed in school zones rude waiters in-laws union-busters Nothing in Colin's post or any previous posts suggests that the substitution of "inner circle" with "Jew" is a logical one. It seems to me that since Wally passed away (peace to his soul), there has been a real moral vacuum on this list, with ever more ugliness. So maybe what we need is a coup d'etat, a revolution, a change of regime. Not a revolution like the one enacted by Robespierre, the kind that killed half of France. But a revolution in attitude, a coup that wipes clean the nastiness that seems to have gotten entrenched in this list. I write: Wow. I am humbled and I am only on the periphery of the beginnings of this fascist thread. And a loud Hear, hear! Howard PS whatever happened to the other Howard--the Brit? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 02:48:05 +0200 From: Marian Subject: They're rockin' in New Orleans! Just got off the phone with Michael et al in New Orleans. Sounded like a great party - David Lahm playing piano non-stop since 9 a.m. with a choir which has included Kakki, Leslie Mixon and Lori Reason - another musical group outside beneath the Spanish moss laden trees with Bob Muller, Bern, Marcel, Catgirl and Kakki (they were singing "Hit The Road Jack" when I called). Michael's shrimp for dinner! Marian dreaming of New Orleans from Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:27:54 EDT From: PPeterson4@aol.com Subject: Connecticut Concert May 27, 2000 Hey Kids! Could NOT resist the opportunity to hear Ms. Mitchell one more time, so I headed up to Wallingford Connecticut to catch Saturday's show. Walked up to the ticket window and asked if they had any last minute seats and the woman smiled and sold me an incredible one down front and center. The Oakdale Theater is this enormous venue with state of the art facilities in the middle of what appears to be farm land. The sound was spectacular - huge when it needed to be, but always detailed, projecting every nuance of the arrangements and never overpowering Joni's vocals. When I complimented one of the guys at the mixing board after the show he beamed and said "Once in a lifetime music!" The audience was 80% forty- and fifty- somethings. I never saw so many wide asses, pot bellies and grey hair in one place - I fit right in! Of course there were exceptions: Meryl Streep arrived with a bunch of teen- agers. What other young people there were, seemed to be with their parents too. After the Debussy, Joni appeared to the first of many standing ovations. Off she went into You're My Thrill and the journey was begun. I've come to really love this collection of songs. They actually do work together to form a whole larger than the sum of its parts. Once it starts you anticipate and savor each element as it unfolds. Not much new to report about her performance except that she seemed even freer than in New York, more willing to improvise. The audience was with her right from the start, cheering her on, standing again after A Case of You, applauding the start of Don't Go to Strangers and Stormy Weather, and losing it after Both Sides Now. I am repeatedly amazed at how that song has been transformed by its new arrangement and the feeling that she invests in it. For me Hejira was again the high point musically of the show. It's one of her greatest works and the new arrangement with propulsive bass, strings, and drums underscoring her vocal is phenomenal. She called it her song about "going AWOL - running away from everything" They got another standing ovation for it. One guy in the audience kept yelling out "Hey Larry!" It was nice seeing Klein get the recognition. For the Roses was again stunning in its brilliance. The new arrangement and her vocal make a fitting climax to the evening. After she left the stage the audience held its applause while the orchestra played the apocalyptic conclusion and an empty spotlight searched the stage and ended up on the Joni-less microphone stand. A nice touch. After a cigarette free Trouble Man (is she quitting?) she introduced the soloists and when she thanked the orchestra, she turned to the audience and said "They're your band" I guess meaning they were all local musicians. "They only had one day to learn all this!" Then off she went. Lights up. A woman behind me was complaining about the lack of an encore but I have to say it's refreshing not to have to go through that ritual of dragging a performer back out again and again. Joni knows she's great. We know she's great. That was the show. Seemed just right to me. Now I'm thinking Philadelphia isn't really that far from New York..... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 01:42:27 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: Least Favorite Songs Ok, I am chiming in on this thread for one reason. Smokin'. The first time I heard it I thought it hilarious and a great use of found sound to create rhythm. Not amazingly inventive but fun and a surprise. (I can't believe I am going to go into this about this trifle, kind of throwaway song). I love the picture it paints of Joni the infamous smoker suddenly desperate when she learns the bin is empty and her brand is gone. (As an ex-smoker, I can understand this . . . I remember it, I should say). I don't understand the dislike for Jungle Line either. I am a sucker for percussion (there is killer use of drums/percussion on Massive Attack's Mezzanine CD called Inertia Creeps) and this song slays me becuz of it. I can understand the arguments that it might not fit in sequentially but that isn't reason enough to dislike it, I don't think. It still is an amazing song. Ok, so my least favorites (and I am ready for the attacks, I think): Black Crow and Blue Motel Room. I think these two are lumps of coal among the diamonds of Hejira. I think I don't like them becuz of the lyrics mainly. The other songs are so vivid and deep and layered that these less complex ones stand out. "I'm in a blue motel room with a blue bedspread, I got the blues inside and outside my head . . . " Snore. (Compare this to "peeping through keyholes in numbered doors, where the players lick their wounds and take their temporary lovers and their pills and powders to get them through this passion play"). I often skip them when listening. Lead Balloon. this is an easy target. On this, I think it is the layering of her own voice that gets to me--that persistent problem that I think she has. Ray's Dad's Cadillac. Patooey. Again, the voices layered only adds to the not-goodness. Come in from the Cold. I couldn't understand how this was chosen to become a video and then, how the video got airplay. There are so many better songs on NRH. Solid Love. Someone the other day pointed out the joyful bouyancy of this song, and I have begun to rethink this, but it stills misses bigtime for me. There are a few on Dog Eat Dog: Fiction, Three Great Stimulants, Tax Free and Lucky Girl. I'm not gonna talk about CMIARS now. Maybe later. I'm steeling myself for the blows. (Especially for the Hejira picks.) Howard M ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #217 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?