From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #205 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, May 23 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 205 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long [susan+rick ] Re: DOG EAT DOG [susan+rick ] Re: A Joni Day is Londontown [catman ] Cub reporter goes to work (was A Joni Day is Londontown) ["Paul Castle" <] music for a Rainy day (Vljc) [Joseph Palis ] London listers ["Sue Cameron" ] UK Review [M.D.Quinn@shu.ac.uk (Mike QUINN\(CMS\))] Miles' "Blue Xmas" (SJC) ["James L. Leonard" ] Miles' "Blue Xmas" (SJC) ["Bob Muller (Perception)" ] Re: Miles' "Blue Xmas"/Joni's "River" ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: Miles' "Blue Xmas"/Joni's "River" ["James L. Leonard" ] Oh, say can you see ["Peg Eves" ] Re: music for a Rainy day (Vljc) [susan+rick ] RE: All we deface, all we defend . . . ["Peg Eves" ] Re: French (SJC) ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: music for a Rainy day (Vljc) ["Reuben Bell" ] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long [Howard Motyl ] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long [catman ] the change [catman ] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long [Howard Motyl ] BSN Tour programs for you [Brian Gross ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:57:59 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long Jim wrote to me > susan+rick, > I patched things up earlier this evening. I hope this makes a difference. Hi Jim My post appeared on the list long after I sent it, in fact long after I read your reply. I'm having trouble with something somewhere because I've sent several posts that never showed up at all. I re-read your first post and see it now as you first intended it: That Joni's music is not easy and that the only way anyone could appreciate it absolutely on all levels would be to get the kind of education you listed. I agree with that certainly (Hell, I still don't get the Robespierre reference!) And yet still with all that, as evidenced by Colin's post about John's reaction to Joni () there has to be something more, something ephemeral, something that's as simple (or as complex) as *love*, that creates the true Joni fan. All good things and all things Joni Rick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:03:54 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: DOG EAT DOG dave fairall / beth miller posted: > while not one of Joni's best, it's an interesting period piece, and > there are some solid tunes on it as well. Recently I've been getting > back into Wild Things Run Fast, which really is a great record. > Larry Klein plays his ass off on that one... Hooray for you Dave, not too many of the people who post to the list would agree with your calling WTRF a great record. I think it's somewhere near the bottom of the voting list. But it's still near the top of my personal faves. All good things Rick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:08:27 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: A Joni Day is Londontown I wonder if they are going to do a South Bank Show about her? This is an 'arts' show on the tv, an hour long, usually devoted to whoever they decide. Howard Motyl wrote: > > Hey, you listers across the Atlantic-- > > I was talking with someone from Joni's management team about our > possible Joni project and we were talking about taping the BSN concert > and he casually mentioned that the live concert may be filmed when she > performs in South Bank, London. So, she must be coming . . . when, I > don't know. > > For all of us--there is a documentary that is currently being completed > and it is being produced by the same company who did Writing with > Pictures and Music (suddenly, that doesn't sound like the real title). > Should be done soon and looks as if it will air on A&E here in the > States. > > More to come . . . > > Howard M > > PS and for those who care, looks like our project won't happen becuz > what we want to do is very similar to the doc that is being produced and > there would be a conflict there. Oh, well--everything comes and goes . > . . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:56:53 -0400 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Cub reporter goes to work (was A Joni Day is Londontown) Howard howard_scptv@interaccess.com wrote >and he casually mentioned that the live concert may be filmed >when she performs in South Bank, London. So, she must be >coming . . . when, I don't know. Morning all! Have set up my little tent outside The Festival Hall. Awake most of last night as the trains rolled over the Hungerford Bridge. Managed to drift off at about 4am only to be woken by two 'Bobby Plods'. "Ello, Ello. What's goin' on 'ere, then?" Offering them a cup of steaming coffee from my thermos flask, I told them that, as a jmdl cub reporter, I had it on good authority that Joni was coming to town. The moment I said it I knew I should have kept my mouth shut. Quick as a flash they were on their little radios and the chill night air was full of police car sirens screaming over Waterloo Bridge all going "Whoooooohoooooo". I have since been moved from my first place in the line to make way for a Constabulary Command Centre with lots of burly 'rozzers' walking around sporting "Kiss Me! I'm a South Bank Pig" T-shirts and discussing the merits of Hejira over For the Roses! PaulC ("What's 'e on?", I hear you say) . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 17:55:13 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: music for a Rainy day (Vljc) there seems to music that begged to be played at midnight or thereabouts, while there are specific music that seems to acquire a different dimension when listened to during rainy days. i found out that Julia Fordham's SWEPT and Everything But the Girl's IDLEWILD album easily stand out as albums tailor-made for "bed weather". runner-ups include Rickie Lee Jones' POP POP and all of Michael Franks' album save SKIN DIVE and THE CAMERA NEVER LIES. I found out at the same time that the Joni album i usually play during rainy days where one stays in bed and look at the rain in a glass pane is TI and runner up are CLOUDS and BSN. i wonder what others listen to during rainy days. Joseph np: Helen Merrill "You and The Night and the Music" (another rainy day staple. Merrill, not the song) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:08:42 -0400 From: "Sue Cameron" Subject: London listers To all London listers: Jacky, Les, Martin, Zamie Zoob, Colin, Karen... Ahhh who else am I forgetting? I have sent up a plea on the list to collect programs for you (Mike, can you help out?) I will have them with me when I visit in August. If others could help contribute to this cause it would be greatly appreciated. Vince, especially, as you will be arriving in Detroit directly from the Chicago concert. Anything else we can do for the folks across the pond? Sue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:25:06 +0100 From: M.D.Quinn@shu.ac.uk (Mike QUINN\(CMS\)) Subject: UK Review News of the tour has reached the UK press. I thought you might be interested in a very positive review of the LA show from last Friday's Daily Mail. Mike LIVE: Joni Mitchell (Greek Theatre, LA) Joni Mitchell maintained her recent transformation from folk-rocker to diva with this magnificent show. Backed by a 70-piece symphony orchestra, the Canadian opened her American tour before 6000 fans who had negotiated rush hour traffic to hear her sing on a warm, starry night. Wearing a purple evening dress, Mitchell sang songs from Both Sides Now. The album released in February, used classic show tunes to trace the arc of a love affair, from flirtation to heartbreak. Joni also performed orchestral versions of songs from her own wide repertoire- including Be Cool and Hejira- and ended with a cover of Marvin Gaye's Trouble Man. The singer seemed liberated without the encumbrance of an acoustic guitar, cheekily referring to the orchestra as 'her band'. 'This is so adult' she laughed. Among the highlights were one of Mitchell's own numbers, A Case of You , and a dashing interpretation of I Wish I Were In Love Again, a Rodgers and Hart standard which was enhanced by jazz pianist Herbie Hancock. But the biggest cheer of the night was reserved for Both Sides Now. The song, one of Mitchell's greatest ballads, began to a ripple of applause and ended with a standing ovation. With Joni keen to record more of her own material- and some Christmas songs- with an orchestra, this one is set to run and run. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:56:06 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Miles' "Blue Xmas" (SJC) I, for one, hope that Joni bypasses "Blue Xmas" when it comes time to record her Christmas record. I first heard it, and was appalled by it, on a Columbia Records sampler in the '80s called Jingle Bell Jazz. It's a very bitter, acidic song, lyrically-speaking, and attacks the holiday and its celebrators on just about every level. Musically-speaking, there's not much to it, either. I consider myself a great fan of Miles, and I own and am familiar with most of his discography, from his earliest years with Charlie Parker right up through the Montreux concert with Quincy Jones that Ken mentioned. (I listed Miles' as one of my "favorite careers".) Despite this, when Christmas comes, "Blue Xmas" is programmed out when I listen to Jingle Bell Jazz. I think Joni would do a disservice to herself to include it, the Miles connection notwithstanding. "Boston Jim" NP: Joni, Reprise Music Show ('95) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:47:13 -0400 From: "Bob Muller (Perception)" Subject: Miles' "Blue Xmas" (SJC) <> Gee, this sounds like a shoe-in for the record! :~) And the cover could have Joni done up like the Grinch, with all of her cats sporting tied-on antlers! (I'm joking y'all, Joni's not the Grinch type imo) "It's coming on Christmas, they're cutting down trees"...a little bitter & acidic, wouldn't you say? I think her apex of bitterness is probably "you'd eat your young alive, for a Jaguar in the drive". Any other contenders for Joni's bitterest lyric? Bob NP: Jimmy Webb, "Crying in my Sleep" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:09:47 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: Miles' "Blue Xmas"/Joni's "River" I've never thought "they're cutting down trees" was a bitter lyric, more of a casual observation of general holiday preparations. Those preparations have, in turn, helped accentuate Joni's melancholy over the loss of her love relationship, the admission she is at fault, and the knowledge she won't be spending the holiday with her lover. I never interpreted that lyric as having any kind of environmentalist intent. "Boston Jim" NP: Miles, "Blue Xmas" (a refresher course) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Muller (Perception) To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 5:47 AM Subject: Miles' "Blue Xmas" (SJC) > > "It's coming on Christmas, they're cutting down trees"...a little bitter & > acidic, wouldn't you say? > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:22:17 -0400 From: "Bob Muller (Perception)" Subject: RE: Miles' "Blue Xmas"/Joni's "River" < a casual observation of general holiday preparations. >> > Maybe, but if she wants to talk holiday prep, why not talk about decorating the tree, or making cookies, or baking a turkey, or singing carols or something a little more joyous than chopping down a tree...? I think the lyric goes hand in hand with "paved paradise, put up a parking lot", not that Joni's a tree-hugger but that she sees the destruction of natural beauty in the creation of what we attemp to recreate as something beautiful. Maybe more irony than bitterness? Bob NP: Joni, "The Man I Love" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 06:37:12 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: MSG Rave Reviews Hi all, Harper Lou here. I went to Madison Square Garden Theater last night for the Both Sides Now concert. Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! It was absolutely one of the classiest musical presentations I ever saw. The Both Sides Now album was well-presented. Herbie Hancock was smoking on the piano. The orchestra was right on. Joni's rapport with the audience was excellent. And Larry Klein only played a wee tiny bit. Who could ask for more? After the program of the complete new album, I was surprised to hear Joni do some older selections, too. Hejira, Be Cool, For the Roses and Ludwig's Tune (one of my favorites) were a thrill to hear with an orchestra. At one point, Joni flubbed the words a bit and jumped right back into it. Her mistakes are better than most people's best efforts. As a performer, it was nice to know that idols make mistakes sometimes too. I read a few posts from people who said that Joni's voice ain't what it used to be. WRONG! Although she's a few notes lower than her sprightly soprano days, she sings with as much quality, or more. What a sense of pitch and timing! For the Roses was so well sung, and I'm glad she threw in those few numbers from previous recordings. If any of you still has a chance, go to the show! It's one of Joni's best concerts ever. In the lobby during the intermission, I heard one man remark how boring it all was and how there wasn't any "real jazz" going down. His funeral ought to be Wednesday or Thursday, considering they find the body where I left it! Some of the JMDL met at Judy's Chelsea before the show. David Lahm is an excellent piano player, and I would encourage anyone visiting New York to try to catch him. Joni listers from as far as Geneva and Wales were there, too. It was real nice meeting Patrick, Lori, Alison, Paul and everyone. Sadly, the Wild West Show still has me under contract as a singing cowboy again this Memorial Day, so I won't be able to saddle up and head on down to NOrleans. Have a good Jonifest! Regards, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:43:45 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: Miles' "Blue Xmas"/Joni's "River" I can see your point about the lyric being "ironic," Bob. Still, "cutting down trees" is joined with "putting up reindeer and singing songs of joy and peace," which are activities more in line with the types of holiday prep you mentioned. Besides, I think the song takes place in early December, before the cookies and turkey stage has arrived. "Boston Jim" - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Muller (Perception) To: 'James L. Leonard' Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 6:22 AM Subject: RE: Miles' "Blue Xmas"/Joni's "River" > < lyric, more of > > a casual observation of general holiday preparations. >> > > > Maybe, but if she wants to talk holiday prep, why not talk about > decorating the tree, or making cookies, or baking a turkey, or singing > carols or something a little more joyous than chopping down a tree...? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:49:17 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Joni at MSG taped last night I attended Joni's show at MSG last night and noticed that they were recording the event. There was a microphone directly in front of my seat and just before the show, one of the ushers told the person whose chair the microphone was attached to that he should be mindful of the microphone, as they were recording. I don't know if this is something that is routinely done, but thought that everyone would be interested to know this. The show was, IMHO, simply wonderful. In the audience were Diana Krall, Bette Midler, and Judy Collins, along with lots and lots of fans. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:51:33 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: A Joni Day is Londontown Howard wrote:- >>Hey, you listers across the Atlantic-- I was talking with someone from Joni's management team about our possible Joni project and we were talking about taping the BSN concert and he casually mentioned that the live concert may be filmed when she performs in South Bank, London. So, she must be coming . . . when, I don't know. << Wow, Howard! This is the best news I've ever heard. I new it would happen if I flew over to the US to see her. Thanks for keeping us posted. I'm going to phone the South Bank right now. Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:46:29 -0400 From: "Bob Muller (Perception)" Subject: RE: Miles' "Blue Xmas"/Joni's "River" < songs of joy and peace," which are activities more in line with the types > of > holiday prep you mentioned.>> > Excellent point, do you think she's contrasting "cutting down trees" in terms of destroying something in nature with "putting up reindeer", creating some faux image of nature, and then using the final triplet "singing songs of joy and peace" to bring home the irony of it all which is also driving her own melancholy like you said? Maybe it sounds a little deep and far-fetched, but I think Joni works on a much deeper plane than the average or even better-than-average composer. << Besides, I think the song takes place in early > December, before the cookies and turkey stage has arrived.>> > Hey now, watch out...cookies are ALWAYS appropriate - MONSTER WANT COOKIE!! :~D Bob, a sucker for cookies except for those dry tasteless Pecan Sandies, and also hoping that more people respond to his thoughts of Joni's lyrics as opposed to their favorite cookie...;~) NP: "Dance at the Gym" from West Side Story Soundtrack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:00:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Re: Joni at MSG taped last night It was probably simon. Jerry 8-) On Tue, 23 May 2000 SMEBD@aol.com wrote: > I attended Joni's show at MSG last night and noticed that they were recording > the event. There was a microphone directly in front of my seat and just > before the show, one of the ushers told the person whose chair the microphone > was attached to that he should be mindful of the microphone, as they were > recording. I don't know if this is something that is routinely done, but > thought that everyone would be interested to know this. The show was, IMHO, > simply wonderful. In the audience were Diana Krall, Bette Midler, and Judy > Collins, along with lots and lots of fans. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:04:02 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: Miles' "Blue Xmas"/Joni's "River" Wow, Bob. You may have really nailed it! I concede at the very least that your interpretation is highly likely. I hadn't considered River a distant cousin of Big Yellow Taxi, either, until you pointed it out. I really enjoyed the debate. :-) Btw...I hope Joni *does* include River on the Christmas album. I still cringe at the thought of her covering Miles' "Blue Xmas," though, unless she really wants to offend a certain portion of her audience. The two songs are *worlds* apart. "Boston Jim" - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Muller (Perception) To: 'James L. Leonard' Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 6:46 AM Subject: RE: Miles' "Blue Xmas"/Joni's "River" > > > Excellent point, do you think she's contrasting "cutting down trees" > in terms of destroying something in nature with "putting up reindeer", > creating some faux image of nature, and then using the final triplet > "singing songs of joy and peace" to bring home the irony of it all which is > also driving her own melancholy like you said? > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:06:00 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Cub reporter goes to work (was A Joni Day is Londontown) PaulC wrote: > Morning all! Have set up my little tent outside The Festival Hall. > Lots of laughs ! Paul, sounds like Joni mania has hit London. You should be fairly comfortable there, the food in the cafe is quite good. I was there myself last month. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:15:03 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Miles' "Blue Xmas" (SJC) oh you tireless watcher! what have i done to you? that you make everything i dread and everything i fear come true? ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: oh and look who comes to counsel my deep distress these pompous physicians oh whst carelessness! breathtaking ignorance adding insult to injury ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:12:47 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: Oh, say can you see We're all "swans caught on the grass. All we deface, all we defend is just a borderline." Another borderline!" Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Kakki > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 12:58 AM > To: Deb Messling; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long > > > Deb wrote: > > >Some of these comments are just dumb. I don't know what particularly > annoyed Jim or Kakki, but I >was seething at the "fans from the > sixties" who > posted about the Atlanta show. > > That was definitely one of the ones that annoyed me, too. But I think the > ones that got to me the most were some of them (not the listmembers!) from > my old home town L.A. I guess it's tougher to take when you are there in > the audience seeing the same show they did. Plus, I felt some personal > disappointment that some of the Joni home crowd would be so shallow. The > who sat in the row between Lindsay and I was really atrocious. We > ignored him the entire show but for him to actively try to bum > down Lindsay > as he was leaving is sickening to me. All in all, I did think > that most of > the Atlanta reviews were fairly positive and polite in any criticism. I > especially loved the last one from a Leesa, a member of that night's > orchestra, who really posted some nice stuff. > > Kakki > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:28:49 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: music for a Rainy day (Vljc) Joseph Palis posted: >i wonder what others listen to during rainy days. My all time favourite 'down-time" album is Leonard Cohen's first. It's especially good on Sunday mornings whether it's raining or not and it reaches its pinnacle (or nadir) of melancholiness (?) when watching the movie "McCabe and Mrs. Miller" for the twelfth time. Of course it rains so frequently here in the Vancouver area that the luxury of lying in bed on rainy days is something you can't afford to do as often as you'd like to. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:19:57 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: All we deface, all we defend . . . > > > I take exception to a couple of points both Kakki and Jim raise. > > > > . Does that make me any less > > of a Joni fan? You never know what you could > > learn from an uneducated slob who relates to someone's music from a > > completely different perspective than yours. > > > > Howard M > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peg Eves [, 2000 2:12 PM > To: Howard Motyl > Cc: joni@smoe.com > Subject: All we deface, all we defend . . . > > > . . . is just a borderline. Another borderline. > Misguided enthusiasm, I guess. > Let's not offend each other while defending Joni. Forgiveness. > > I've percieved a certain "elitism" present in places here. It > surprised me. If it does exist I don't want to worsen it's > negative potential by REACTING. > I need to be soft ; resilient. I shouldn't have slammed that > reviewer who said Joni's range was truncated but . . .but . . . I > feel protective of her. I have admired Joni Mitchell above ANY > artist I've experienced for thirty years. She is as constant as, > well - something that's not constantly in the darkness- for me. > Hell, the stuff she sees & says - she speaks my mind!! If I think > someone is messin' with her, I get antsy. But I figure anyone on > this list is a serious advocate of Joni Mitchell in spite of > challenging individual opinions. > > Thanks for speaking up. > > In earnest to ALL Joniphiles. > > Peg > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > > Howard Motyl > > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 11:58 AM > > To: JM Discussion List > > Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:22:43 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: French (SJC) with his teeth sunk into the hand that gives you things you really can't give up just yet. :) Thanks for rubbing salt in the wound, wise guy! :) Lamadoo - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Dulson" > I know, I know, I'm just an elitist snob college graduate with way too > many years of French behind me... :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:30:31 PDT From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: music for a Rainy day (Vljc) My three favorite rainy day pics are: David Sylvian - Secrets of the Beehive Cocteau Twins - Blue Bell Knoll Joni's Hejira (and ok one more) Everything But The Girl - Worldwide Reuben np: Carly Simon - The Bedroom Tapes (this record is good, good, good) > >Joseph Palis posted: > >i wonder what others listen to during rainy days. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:30:23 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------60E401B8A113C5DE78B2A133 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kakki wrote: > My comments and I > believe Jim's also, were not directed at *anyone* on this list, nor are we > trying to be "elitist" here. They are a reaction to some of the "reviews" > sent in to be posted on JM.com. I understand that this is what you were doing, but whether or not that was clear, it is a small jump to other people on the list. Colin and I were not the only people to pick up on this. Others sent me messages privately. Here's one: "Your points are very valid. You will get heat, I am sure. I just passed those things by, you rersponded, and that's cool cuz I have had enough heat at times int he JMDL, as well as much love. I want to let you that I do agree with the points that you make and while it didn't hit me the way it hit you, next time it may be the reverse...." I had a vague recollection of Ludwig's Tune and I did listen to it so I could be somewhat familiar with it at the concert. But when you write that people should know all the lyrics, I have to, at the very least, question that attitude. It doesn't matter who you meant to be talking about it, I, for one, read it as a putdown to those in the world, on the list, whatever, who aren't as knowledgeable as you are. This, coupled with Jim's remarks about being well-versed in everything just to understand the lyrics is what smacked of elitism. Again, Colin and I were not the only ones who thought this way. I have felt dissed in the past, especially when I had a legitimate question relating directly to JM. I felt like I wasn't part of the in-group so that a response to my question wasn't necessary. I even asked one question twice because I couldn't believe that no one on the list knew the answer, especially since there seems to be so many Joni knowledgeable people here. Yet, the few responses I got were not related to the question at hand. But enough of my blatherings. If you think that Colin and I are the only ones who are concerned about an elitist attitude on the list, Let's hear from another lister, who emailed me privately: "I am not a college graduate and am not a particularly learned person when it comes to formal education. I am finding more and more that there are a few persons on the JMD List who ooze an air of superiority with their posts. I don't post too often because even though I began my love affair with Joni's music with the "Song to a Seagull" and "Blue" albums and followed her career as it mirrored my life, I am not comfortable expressing a lot of my feelings in this forum. " I think we should be careful to make everyone comfortable on our little list. And allow for the diversity of opinion that makes the world go round. From your response, Kakki, I think you get most of what we are saying, and we understand you, somewhat. Given our responses and the responses of just these two above listers, you have to understand that how you two were writing, and your tone, it easily became about us, your listing brethren and sistren. But how do you know that the people posting the reviews are not also on the list? And I have to ask: why do you feel that you must protect Joni Mitchell from negative reviews? She 1. is a grown woman 2. has heard many negative things about her musical/'artistic career in her life (and let us know that she knows about them: she confronts them or complains about them) 3. should hear what some of her fans think (it has never stopped her from doing what she wants to do in the past.) If you can discern the sublime from the ridiculous in the reviews, then so can she and her team. Listen, Kakki, I haven't read the reviews that you are talking about but I get some sense of them from what you and Jim and others have written/said and I get annoyed by them, too. I wonder (as Don Rowe said in his excellent post on why the bad reviews might be written) if these people actually know what Joni is doing now, what she is attempting. Regardless of whether she is successful at it or not (and I lean, as you know, toward the "not" side--but I have paid my 85 smackers to see her change my mind in concert), do they understand the direction she's going? But even if they don't, I don't believe they should be considered idiots because of it. I don't think their posts should be considered "hate mail" or "SHIT" (which Jim has already apologized for, not the hate mail). That said, I think you are getting what we are saying about the elitist thing, but I don't feel like Jim is. The last post I received from him was a defense of JM.com and showed no concern for the elitist attitude that he showed in his exchange with you. He wrote: "I think the idea that Joni lost lots of folks with Mingus should be on there somewhere. If jm.com had existed when Mingus was released, do you guys think it would have been appropriate to post on jm.com review after review after review, all titled "Mingus Sucks"? I don't." Well, I do. I really do. If everyone thinks that it is bad, that it is total dreck, then that's what should be on there. It's about the truth--if no one liked Mingus, no one at all, do you propose to write a good review that is entirely faked? Isn't it better to have a wide range of opinions rather than simply "the company line"? I guess the idea is that you lie to people who come to the site so they go out and buy something that they probably won't like and then they become disillusioned with the website and never visit it again. Jim also wrote: "I live in a democratic place but i don't think an artist's web space is the best place for democracy. If it were, every single web page would reflect exactly the same thing- the popularity at the moment. so jm.com would have lots of input from fans of the most popular artists of today, without any concentration on Our Lady Of Duality. Review: "Backstreet Boys Rule- Joni Sucks!" We disagree on this one." We certainly do. I imagine, using your logic, my 13 yr old niece and her friends invading the JM site to putdown Joni to promote their flavor of the day. Even if the teens of the world know who Joni Mitchell is, do you really believe they will seek out her site simply to fill it with Backstreet Boys posts? I don't and I don't think you do either--you, as well as I, know that teenagers--the vast majority of them anyway--have much better things to do than invade the Joni Mitchell website. And besides, Jim, that is not the point, and you know it. I don't think N'Sync and Brittany posts are appropriate for the JM site and I wouldn't allow their posts--unless, of course, they were directly related to JM. For instance, if an Amy Grant fan happened upon the site and talked about Amy doing Big Yellow Taxi. Appropriate. But even that is still not the point. The point is that the posts that were on the JM site were directly related to Joni Mitchell, whether you or Kakki or Jim J or Colin or even I, liked them. The site is a Joni Mitchell site. And, if I am not wrong, the site is about Joni Mitchell but it is *for her fans*--whether they be avid, up-to-date, fallen away, Mingus-hating, stuck-at-C&S, or out with the wild things running fast. Democracy can be a messy thing, can't it? People shouldn't be put down for having opinions that are different than yours. Why not contact the people who left they bad reviews and explain to them what Joni is trying to do? Seems much more constructive than slamming them in front of us and upsetting us at the same time. Besides, you will find that they are just normal human beings like you (whether or not they've studied lit and philosophy, etc. ;) ) and you will help them appreciate Joni and her music and her art even more. Don't put them down, lift them up. (Oops, that sounded a bit elitist on my part . . . ) Howard M As for being called "scary and dangerous", you weren't. I said: "Both of these sentiments are so elitist it angered me instantly when I read them. They are dangerous and scary thoughts." What you were suggesting is scary and dangerous, not you. As for being elitist, what both of you were proposing was elitist, and that can't be denied. And lastly, sycophant. If, indeed, the JM website doesn't have anything negative on it, it is a list of sycophants. And if one flatly accepts anything that Joni Mitchell or any other artist/pop star, fawning over her/his every action and word, one is simply a sycophant. - --------------60E401B8A113C5DE78B2A133 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="howard_scptv.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Howard Motyl Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="howard_scptv.vcf" begin:vcard n:Motyl;Howard tel;fax:312-421-7714 tel;work:312-421-7711 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:SCPtv Worldwide adr:;;400 N. May St., Suite 201;Chicago;Illinois;60622;USA version:2.1 email;internet:howard_scptv@interaccess.com title:Director, Creative Development note:"Any time you have the opportunity to accomplish something for those coming behind you and you don't, you are wasting your time on this earth." Roberto Clemente x-mozilla-cpt:;3 fn:Howard Motyl end:vcard - --------------60E401B8A113C5DE78B2A133-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:54:59 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long Howard, While I protect your right as a jmdler to post on this topic, this is a complete retread of your earlier posts. I have already explained to you that I certianly don't mean to single you or any other lister out. I have volunteered lots of time to the community by making tapes every week for 3 years. How does it further anything to continue this tyrade? You said, > People shouldn't be put down for having > opinions that are different than yours. I think i said that they didn't "get it" and that they wrote "hate mail" and I stand by those words. I don't think I said that they were worthless people, stupid, uneducated or anything else that could be even deliberately mis-construed as eletist. How can you argue with the me when I say that people who hated Mingus "didn;t get it"? You suggested that my attitude towards people posting hate mail on Joni's OWN web site is to "Don't put them down, lift them up." Ironically, this is what I'm suggesting to them that they do when they post opinions on a multi-faceted genius on her OWN web site. If web pages existed when the Beatles played on the rooftop of the fabled Abbey Road Studios, you would force their webmaster to post over and over again that they were disappointed, they didn't play long enough, you couldn't understand the words and they didn't play any hits what so ever. Do these arguments sound familiar? They should but they are not balanced, nor do they exalt the artist. As I said before, IMHO, that's what an artist OWN web site should be (mostly) about. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:08:27 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Rainy Day Music Has to be "Concerto For A Rainy Day" from ELO's "Out Of The Blue". I know it;s pop but I flat-out LOVE it. [Are you listening Howard? :) ] All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati MISTER BLUE SKY PLEASE TELL US WHY YOU HAD TO HIDE AWAY FOR SO LONG?!?!? (wiping away the tears! This thing ROCKS!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:15:42 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long especially when I had a legitimate question > relating directly to JM. I felt like I wasn't part of the in-group so > that a > response to my question wasn't necessary. howard-I had an experience quite some time ago that pissed me off then and still does! At the time of TTT being released there was a long article about Joni in one of the Braodsheets, including an interview. I started to transcribe onto email and send it to the list. i made sure there were no wrrors as I know my typing is not the best and make loads of typing errors. anyway after three emails which took me hours and loads more to go, i stopped. Not one word was ever written about those emails. I figured it was the usual case of it hppening outside the uSA so was of no consequence. It was an excellent and positive article. I've not bothered since to relay any Joni stuff I come across. there you another, another boit or resentment gone out the window!:-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:17:55 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Rainy Day Music I know > it;s pop but > isn't Joni? She is to be found in the pop section of all the record shops I have ever been in! :-) On seconds thoughts no of course she isn't pop-at least not after she went all funny on us after C&S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:20:57 +0100 From: catman Subject: the change it just occurred to me that the 'cahnge' in Joni was not so evident for me as the first Joni I had was THOSL. Later when i got all the albums up till then, I could see how she had changed and preferred her later incarnation. Apart from C&S and STAS I have never really managed to get thru to the end of the other albums as the high pitch gets on my nerves after a while. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:58:29 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Howard, > While I protect your right as a jmdler to post on this topic, this is a > complete retread of your earlier posts. I have already explained to you > that I certianly don't mean to single you or any other lister out. I have > volunteered lots of time to the community by making tapes every week for 3 > years. > > How does it further anything to continue this tyrade? Because of problems with my email, I received your explanation before I sent my last post. So, I apologize to you for calling you on the carpet again--had I received the post pre-digest, I wouldn't have re-tread this part of the post. That said, I think the "air of superiority" issue needs to be addressed. You may not be part of the problem, but there are enough of us who responded to this in a way that shows that there is a problem. How do we fix it? I'm not sure; that, I suppose, is up for discussion. And I will say, that since sending my last post, I received yet another off-list message decrying the "superiority" issue. You wrote: "You suggested that my attitude towards people posting hate mail on Joni's OWN web site is to "Don't put them down, lift them up." Ironically, this is what I'm suggesting to them that they do when they post opinions on a multi-faceted genius on her OWN web site." When I suggested to you is that you educate the negative posters on what Joni was doing, I meant that it would be helpful for them to know what is going on in her musical career so they can make a clear judgment/judgement of her latest work/performance. What you are suggesting is that only the We Love You, Joni messages get on the site and I think that is wrong. Let's agree to disagree. Howard M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:45:57 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long At 11:58 AM 5/23/2000, Howard Motyl wrote: >That said, I think the "air of superiority" issue needs to be addressed. >You may not be part of the problem, but there are enough of us who >responded to this in a way that shows that there is a problem. >How do we fix it? I think we just decide to post to the list, period. The vast majority of us on this list, IMHO, certainly do not promote an "air of superiority" on purpose. Those few that do, I simply choose to ignore. Like any community, I think we have to take the good with the bad - but we never need to let it ruin the day, spoil the fun, or prevent us from posting. Contrary to the belief of some, there is no inner circle here, no seniority rules, no secret club of experienced posters who have the right to dictate what anyone else says or doesn't say. This is a free, open, unmoderated, self-regulating forum. When you subscribed, you received etiquette guidelines. Nowhere does it say "only post intelligent questions" or "memorize her entire lyrical output before posting". It does say, however: "Tolerance, tolerance, tolerance: It is not acceptable to personally insult someone publicly on the list." Post away, damn the rest. Les, who: - - is a college graduate but still lacks common sense. - - can spell "antidisestablishmentarianism" but always has trouble with "necessary". - - has a good number of negative articles about Joni on his website. - - doesn't understand a thing that Joni is saying on "Don't Interrupt the Sorrow" but loves it anyway. - - thinks "Sisotowbell Lane" is naive but loves it anyway. - - enjoys an occasional day of laying sod. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:52:22 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long > > Post away, damn the rest. straight form the horses mouth. thanks les. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:31:10 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long The one part of this thread that I wanted to address is the "negative reviews" on Joni's website. First of all, I think that a good majority of the reviews were positive ones. I didn't perceive any of the negative ones as "hate mail" either. I think everyone IS entitled to express their opinion whether it is on the JM.com or a newspaper article. Some of the negative reviews on Joni's website mentioned Joni's voice sounding badly, the orchestra being to loud, Joni looking awkward, or her wardrobe being horrible. Even though my opinion was totally different from theirs, that's fine with me. What I *did* find a little strange was the people who wrote on the JM.com saying that they were so disappointed in the concert because Joni didn't sing her older songs or didn't play the dulcimer. I can see someone saying this who is a Joni fan, but didn't realize what the BSN tour was about. For those who posted these views on Joni's site, I would think that they had a good idea what was in store for them. I can't imagine them getting back from the concert, turning on the computer, doing a search for Joni Mitchell, finding Wally's page and sending in a review. I would think these people would have already known about JM.com and would read it occasionally. How could these people NOT know what Joni was going to do on this tour? I do suppose it's possible, but it puzzles me. To quote a line from one reviewer: "please consider that the tour wasn't billed as "An Evening Of Joni Mitchell Looking and Sounding Exactly As You Remember Her From Thirty Years Ago and Doing The Old Songs In Familiar Arrangements To Make You Feel Comfortable And Give You A Nice Warm Fuzzy Boomer Nostalgia Moment." I hope I made a little sense in my post. (Yeah I know "VERY LITTLE SENSE") I'm at work right now and really didn't have time to think this out clearly. Have a great day everyone! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:14:44 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Inspired Jim & Robert Fripp I loved that record & I wondered the same thing. Don't know. He worked with The Roches on one of their later releases. Maybe even co-produced it. Did you know? I think The Roches are another hit of genius! They blow my mind. Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Evan > + Vanessa Thomson > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 8:33 PM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Inspired Jim & Robert Fripp > > > > Jim confessed: > > > Well, yeah! I'm just shocked that someone would submit SHIT like "I saw > > joni tonight and i was disappointed" to an artist's web page. > If I were jj, > > it would feel awful!!! Having to put up stuff like that when > he's in it to > > exhalt her. It reads to me, almost like hate mail. And lots > of people did > > that. These are people who, at one point or > > another, loved her! > > > > In many ways Joni has been lucky on her review pages (that I've > read) that the > complaints are so inane. Robert Fripp recently published a diary > online and the > comments he received were beyond vile. Horrific messages were > left about his > personal life and they attacked his family etc. It was beyond > criticism. As far > as I'm aware, Joni 'knows' that there are 'fans' out there who > only know her as > a folk singer and it does bother her, but in many ways, what can > you do about > it? I believe alot of these fans choose to perceive an artist a > particular way. > You know the Metallica argument, Metallica 'sold out' with the > Black album. Alot > of 'diehard' fans chose to have nothing to do with the band when > they finally > achieved chart success; as did some Soundgarden fans when they > became popular. > In many ways I don't think there's anything an artist can do. > Abit of a no win > situation! > > Also speaking of Robert Fripp, does anyone know if his song, "You > Burn Me Up I'm > A Cigarette" (off his 1979 Exposure album) has anything to do > with Joni's, "You > Turn Me On I'm A Radio"? He admitted that one of his favourite > albums ever was > "Blue". > > I asked this on Elephant Digest (The King Crimson List) but to no avail. > > Vanessa > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:13:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: BSN Tour programs for you Step right up! Get your program here! I managed to grab over 100 programs last night at Madison Square Garden. If you're interested in getting one, here's how: Start with a 9x12 inch manila envelope Fold it in half to make it 6x9 (with the sealing flap inside) Address one of the outside panels to me: Brian Gross PO Box 5126 Deptford NJ 08096-0126 Put a 33¢ stamp on it. Write "First Class Mail" on the other outside panel Unfold the envelope, and on the 6x9 surface opposite the one with the sealing flap, address it to yourself and put another 33¢ stamp on it. Put your own address as the return address. Refold the envelope so that *MY* address is exposed. Do *NOT* seal the flap. Put a strip of scotch tape on each of the 3 edges to hold it closed. Drop it in the mail and I'll put a program in it and mail it back out to you. For those of you outside the USA, I'm not sure how we're going to do this. I'm open to suggestions (ha - what an understatement that is!) I'll keep filling envelopes as they arrive until they're all gone. SIQUOMB, ISN'T SHE? Brian ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #205 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?