From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #204 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, May 23 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 204 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: DED on CD [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Atlanta Concert, Wallace's trumpet, Klein, etc.. ["Jim L'Hommedieu" <] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long [Deb Messling ] Re: Atlanta Concert, Wallace's trumpet, Klein, etc.. [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long [Bounced Message ] MPP [dave fairall / beth miller ] DOG EAT DOG [dave fairall / beth miller ] A Joni Day is Londontown [Howard Motyl ] Re: Our Lady of Duality . . . [Catherine Turley ] New York May 22, 2000 [PPeterson4@aol.com] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long ["Kakki" ] Two tickets for Maryland concert 5/25 [Marian ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:57:24 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: DED on CD In a message dated 5/22/00 1:17:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jll@tampabay.rr.com writes: << Dog Eat Dog is out of print, according to my local record stores and Barnes & Noble, etc. Although I have the vinyl (no turntable, though) and a pre-recorded cassette, I'd like to find a CD. Does anyone have any suggestions, beyond scouring used record stores? >> Saw a copy of the DED CD at my local Camelot music store this very evening. $15.99 Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:26:21 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Atlanta Concert, Wallace's trumpet, Klein, etc.. How cool Ken! I hope she does it! If she follows recent form, she'll let Larry make the list of songs! How Cool!!!!!!!! We all know that she really can't resist any Miles connection at all! It like candy to her! I'm keeping your post in a new folder called "Joni's Dreary Christmas Album". If she includes your pick, I want you to sign the post for me- so I'll have a keepsake of this!! Cool! > jazz songwriter Bob > Dorough > co-wrote with Miles Davis called "Blue XMas," which was a highly cynical > christmas song ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:23:01 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long Far be it from me to suggest that Joni is above criticism, and I don't begrudge people airing their opinions, but honestly! Some of these comments are just dumb. I don't know what particularly annoyed Jim or Kakki, but I was seething at the "fans from the sixties" who posted about the Atlanta show. These "fans" didn't seem to know the BSN album even existed. Somehow I suspect that if Joni had done an entire concert of Hejira songs, these "fans" would have complained about all the new stuff. Hope all the New Yorkers are enjoying themselves. New York is a Joni town, isn't it? Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~there are only three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:54:34 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: two tickets to Joni concert in Boston Does anyone need two tickets to Joni's Boston concert on Sunday, May 28 at the Fleet Pavilion? They are seats 25 and 26 in section 4, row F. (You can check out the seating plan by going to ticketmaster.com.) With a 'convenience charge' from Ticketmaster, the tickets cost me a total of $148.05. I'm not looking for the highest bidder, just the first JMDL member who offers me what I paid. If there is no interest from this group, I will donate the tickets to a charity. I have only seen Joni three times, all in the 70s, so the last thing I plan to do on the holy night of this concert is to stand outside trying to sell tickets. Also, are there any JMDL-ers who attended the Rolling Thunder Review (Bob Dylan, Joan Baez and others) in Cambridge in the late 70s? Do you remember what songs Joni performed? I've lost those brain cells. If you're interested in the tickets, be the first to reply to me at murphycopy@aol.com. Take care, Bob Murphy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:01:24 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: tonight at JUDY'S CHELSEA It was great having so many of you there before the concert. Thanks for the gracious reception you accorded to me and my friends who sang. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:04:09 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Our Lady of Duality, long, etc. Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:08:26 -0700 From: susan+rick I feel compelled to add my two blue-collared cents in here also. Jim, I've always enjoyed your posts and think of you as a "friend in Joni" so I don't believe you meant anything hurtful by your post (or yours, Kakki) but to state that anyone who doesn't have a certain type of education (formal or otherwise) is some kind of dilettante and incapable of appreciating Joni to a level that allows them to "get it" is, as Howard says, elitism of the worst kind (Is there a good kind of elitism?) Joni herself *merely* attended art school after high school so I imagine that whatever she brings to her music is largely self-learned, both lyrically and musically. She is a genius and I believe it doesn't take a comparable mind to be able to appreciate her work to a level where it becomes one of the most important things in your life. I dropped out of university after one lack-lustre year because it "wasn't me" (very 60's, I'm sure) and didn't go back for any kind of official book-learning until I enrolled in an Outdoor Recreation program in my fortieth year. I have been a Joni fan for over thirty years and have followed her (sometimes kicking and screaming) through all her changes (okay, so I still don't like jazz) and here I am today, a park ranger--a glorified labourer with a uniform. And I do get it. Still friends I hope, All good things Rick PS to Colin: ROFL at your reply to Erin > Does anyone know whether Joni had some reason for > spelling "Judgement of the Moons and Stars" the way > she did (instead of "Judgment")? Yes-she didn't get a college degree and therfore cannot spell. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:07:48 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Atlanta Concert, Wallace's trumpet, Klein, etc.. In a message dated 5/22/00 6:58:56 PM US Central Standard Time, kenevans@UMICH.EDU writes: << Larry nodded and said "I know the song" and had a sort of bemused look of surprise on his face that anyone would mention such a thing. Well.. wouldn't it be something if she does, I was thrilled that he recognized it because it's rather obscure, and yet he's the sort of guy who would have the complete Gil-Miles box where it makes it's only currently-in-print appearance. I had my jaw open for about the next two days.... >> Well, Ken, as Joni would sing..."At Last"...;-) Ken was giving me all this information about Wallace Roney and earlier he had talked about "Blue Xmas". He asked me to include the Roney info in my report, but no way. I'm not afraid to admit I didn't know Wallace Roney from Andy Rooney, and that Ken needed to send his post himself. Ken, this was great! You are really a wealth of information about jazz, so please don't be a stranger because I have much more to learn! And it would be the Coup de Gras to see that chestnut show up on Joni's Christmas record! She would tell the story about how the mad Russian ran into this guy in a hotel lounge who suggested the song, and *YOU* would be the guy! How awesome would that be?!?! Bob NP: Neil, "Heart of Gold" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:07:17 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long From: "Kakki" Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:41:38 -0700 Colin, you wrote: > It doesn't piss me off either nor does it make me want to tear anybody down. that is not what I have >done. I merely reacted to being told that a lack of education, intellect or some other lack meant i >could no appreciate Joni. I feel we are all misinterpreting each other. Jim already has explained to you what he meant, and you seem to understand him now. I understood him originally to be saying it all int he context of how complex her art is that you need to be a great scholar. But I think he was using hyperbole to make a point did not mean it literally. I was the one who pointed out that Joni herself barely had a formal education and indicated that was one of the facts I enjoyed about her. How this all came to be interpreted as us setting ourselves up as elitists, I can't follow. Maybe I should give my background, too. I have a very checkered educational career myself and come from a long line of the same. Lots of formal education (not to knock it) has never been considered that important in my family. Many other things in life are considered more important. That's just another reason why Joni is an inspiration to me - she did not follow the "proscribed plan" to attain her success. > The point is we all have different tastes. I own every single cd Joni has made and love most of them. >the fact that some of them do not resonate with me does mean i lack something. I said a while ago >that i couldn't imagine Joni being able to pull off BSN. I now have the cd and still think that. Others >think it is wonderful. That is what it is to being human. I do not think that those who love BSN lack >anything. Just that they feel differently. colin, your opinion on this has always been obviously sincere to me, and there is truth in it, too. This is not the kind of criticism that Jim and I were objecting to. > No matter how eloquently you write you cannot make people like what they don't. It isn't a reflection >upon you, doesn't invalidate your taste. Nor mine. Of course I can't make people like what they won't. But if they are trying to hammer me or convince me not to like something I do, especially if the criticism is not merited, I have a right to throw my two cents in, too. >To me this smacks of the elitist attitude I and others perceived. It is not a case of being stubborn or >not wanting to get it. We can't all like the same things and to be told that we lack something is >insulting. To be told one is "dangerous", "scary", "elitist" and a "sychophant" is likewise very insulting. > Kakki-you have been here longer than I and in all that time I have never > read anything from you that i thought was rude or arrogant or insulting. > Which is why i was so surprised by your original post and even more > surprised by this second because it is apparent that you didn't get it! > Still none of us are perfect and I won't hold it aganist you ! ;-) No, I'm certainly not perfect, but I hope that you and Howard will consider who Jim and I were referring to now. Not you, not the listmembers. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:35:02 -0600 From: Kate Subject: spelling "Ken, Whenever two spellings are given, the first is the preferred. However, she is Canadian. Webster's is an American dictionary. Paul I" Canadians use British spelling, generally, and rely upon the Oxford dictionary, which is British rather than American. Usually you'll see the difference in such words as colour and color, humour and humor, grey and gray, etc. However, it appears that 'judgement' is correct with or without the first e. Kate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:52:53 -0500 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: MPP Hi Janet, I too am an urban type, Baltimore not DC, and have been to many concerts at Meriweather Post. It's a decent venue, provided you have pavilion seats. The lawn seats suck, they're way far from the stage, and for a show like this, lawn seats would really be the pits. Anyway, the directions you culled from their website are right on, and it's really not too far from DC at all. Columbia Md. is the original James Rouse model community, but it's just an artificial suburban fake-out, so in terms of restaurants / watering holes, they're fairly non-descript, you might consider eating prior to the journey. The concessions at Meriweather, like all such venues, are pricey and not good, not unlike Camden Yards in Baltimore, "hon", definitely false advertising to promote an evening picnic, although it might be marginally better for this show, {probably white wine to be had at least}. We will be in attendance with several close friends, but my wife is 8 1/2 months prego, so socializing with JMDLers is probably not an option, I'm just hoping the bambino waits until after Thursday to post.. The most important thing, the sound, is usually very good there. Saw Sting, Steely Dan, and many others at MPP, and would consider several of the concerts I've attended there to be among my all time faves. Joni played there back in 79 for the Shadows and Light tour, with the ultimate band, but I had a gig and missed that.....a misfortune from which I will never recover. Sorry to digress, you shouldn't have any problem finding Columbia Maryland, not Missouri, and hopefully you won't be disappointed. seeyathere. Dave Fairall Baltimore MD. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:04:47 -0500 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: DOG EAT DOG CDNOW has it.....at a good price too. While not one of Joni's best, it's an interesting period piece, and there are some solid tunes on it as well. Recently I've been getting back into Wild Things Run Fast, which really is a great record. Larry Klein plays his ass off on that one... Dave F. Baltimore Md. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:07:41 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: A Joni Day is Londontown This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------F002B9A7142D5A70EC9ED716 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, you listers across the Atlantic-- I was talking with someone from Joni's management team about our possible Joni project and we were talking about taping the BSN concert and he casually mentioned that the live concert may be filmed when she performs in South Bank, London. So, she must be coming . . . when, I don't know. For all of us--there is a documentary that is currently being completed and it is being produced by the same company who did Writing with Pictures and Music (suddenly, that doesn't sound like the real title). Should be done soon and looks as if it will air on A&E here in the States. More to come . . . Howard M PS and for those who care, looks like our project won't happen becuz what we want to do is very similar to the doc that is being produced and there would be a conflict there. Oh, well--everything comes and goes . . . - --------------F002B9A7142D5A70EC9ED716 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="howard_scptv.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Howard Motyl Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="howard_scptv.vcf" begin:vcard n:Motyl;Howard tel;fax:312-421-7714 tel;work:312-421-7711 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:SCPtv Worldwide adr:;;400 N. May St., Suite 201;Chicago;Illinois;60622;USA version:2.1 email;internet:howard_scptv@interaccess.com title:Director, Creative Development note:"Any time you have the opportunity to accomplish something for those coming behind you and you don't, you are wasting your time on this earth." Roberto Clemente x-mozilla-cpt:;3 fn:Howard Motyl end:vcard - --------------F002B9A7142D5A70EC9ED716-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:30:11 -0700 From: Catherine Turley Subject: Re: Our Lady of Duality . . . I was also taken aback by Jim Lamadoo's comments about needing an extensive education to get Joni, but mostly because that seems so true to me. I didn't see his remarks as elitist, or as casting aspersions on anyone at all. I've had the very same reaction to other artists and writers and thinkers. Two examples that jump to mind are when I read the Federalist Papers for the first time in a US history class, or more recently plowing through Rebecca West's book, "Black Lamb and Grey Falcon." Both made me feel the holes in my education and experience very keenly. But I didn't leave those works feeling inadequate--more than anything I felt profoundly grateful to have been in the presence of truly great minds, lucky to have encountered such brilliance and insight and depth, even if much of it was beyond me. And that is how I feel about Joni's work--much of it is beyond me, and if I had a better education in art and literature and philosophy and religion and music, I would understand it differently. But I can still appreciate it, and it resonates in my heart, and challenges my mind, and I'm incredibly thankful that I get to encounter Joni's brilliance. That's what I was thinking when I read Jim's post and Kakki's replies--obviously my interpretation differs from others, I'm not looking for a tangle or to trade flames with anyone, but it seems to me that Jim and Kakki deserve the courtesy of being asked to clarify their ideas before a definitive interpretation is announced and they are labeled elitist or scary or dangerous. Catherine T. in AZ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:43:08 EDT From: PPeterson4@aol.com Subject: New York May 22, 2000 Hi all. Just returned from the New York concert. Others have already commented on how great this tour is. It's all true. It's once in a lifetime - - so those of you in cities still to be visited, get tickets. (On ticket availability: although the concert appeared to be sold out for weeks, as the date approached, suddenly Ticketmaster had seats right up to showtime, many right down front and center. There were plenty of people outside selling extra tickets and since there was no apparant demand for them, they were being let go for less than face value). In case any of you are wondering, only one JMDL'er took me up on my offer of a free ticket. The sound started out badly balanced, but improved as the show progressed (or maybe I just got used to it). Unlike reports from other venues, her voice was always well placed in the mix. Strings tended to disappear when any wind instruments played. At certain levels the live sound mushed with the amplified sound. But I'm picking (and used to hearing orchestral music in concert halls unamplified) - for the most part the arrangements came through fine and they were spectacular, especially the new ones. Celebrity sightings: Judy Collins sitting in front of us. Bette Midler with her daughter and husband. As the concert started and Joni was going through the first part of her set I was thinking how gutsy this whole album and tour is. This is NOT "Lush Life". She just wanted to do it and did. And pulling off this tour is really amazing. I'm sure there were plenty of people telling her it wouldn't come off. Among the first five standards, "At Last" moved me most. And I was appreciating the craft of these songs, when along came "A Case of You" and the song just blew everything before it away. And it wasn't just that we wanted to hear her material or familiar material. The song is brilliant, lyrically, musically, emotionally. "Don't Go to Strangers" which followed simply isn't in that league. The standards are fun, and if she wants to do them fine, but she's way beyond the material. By the way she was in fine voice - confident, secure, power to spare for the big moments, and for the whispers and the purrs. After intermission, the show went into overdrive. "Stormy Weather" was powerful, great arrangement, great song, great performance. "I wish I were in love again" was cute. "Both Sides Now " in its new arrangement, absolutely heartbreaking. She stumbled over some lyrics - a senior moment - the song more than survived. Then the greatness didn't let up: Be Cool - what a hilarious inventive gem. Judgement of the Moon and Stars - almost operatic in its sweep, and yes she still has the chops to put it over. Then the high point for me - Hejeira in a new propulsive arrangement suggesting a locomotive. The whole stage pulsed with the rhythm of those incredible lyrics, and Klein's bass. For the Roses finished up with another jaw dropping arrangement of a song that speaks so eloquently about the same stuff that sounds so cranky in her interviews. What art! What honest self appraisal! And what guts to sing a song like that at this point in her career! She walks off the stage after the words "Like an empty spotlight" and the orchestra finishes with a shattering coda. The concert ended with a perfect encore - Trouble Man in a great energetic arrangement. With cigarette in hand she belted with gusto, not having to save her voice anymore. I've grown up with Joni Mitchell - she's only a little older than me. In the last year or so I've been feeling a little cut off from her present path - Taming the Tiger hasn't really clicked for me - it seems slightly half baked. I had bad seats for the tour with Dylan and felt ripped off by the crappy sound amplification. And I was suspicious of this standards album thinking it might be a commercial ploy. But tonight has convinced me that she is totally into this phase, and thankfully, she says she's working on the orchestral album of her own material. It's going to be amazing. Time and other things have done all of us some damage. This may be the best she can do at this time in her life. Aren't we all lucky? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:57:32 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long Deb wrote: >Some of these comments are just dumb. I don't know what particularly annoyed Jim or Kakki, but I >was seething at the "fans from the sixties" who posted about the Atlanta show. That was definitely one of the ones that annoyed me, too. But I think the ones that got to me the most were some of them (not the listmembers!) from my old home town L.A. I guess it's tougher to take when you are there in the audience seeing the same show they did. Plus, I felt some personal disappointment that some of the Joni home crowd would be so shallow. The who sat in the row between Lindsay and I was really atrocious. We ignored him the entire show but for him to actively try to bum down Lindsay as he was leaving is sickening to me. All in all, I did think that most of the Atlanta reviews were fairly positive and polite in any criticism. I especially loved the last one from a Leesa, a member of that night's orchestra, who really posted some nice stuff. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:42:03 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: spelling bee SJC This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------58E3FAC6195D1272C642E1DB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:13:26 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: ludwig's tune Les Irvin wrote: > > Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:45:38 -0700 (PDT) > From: Erin Stoy > > Hi all, > Does anyone know whether Joni had some reason for > spelling "Judgement of the Moons and Stars" the way > she did (instead of "Judgment")? > Erin Yes-she didn't get a college degree and therfore cannot spell. *** After our day and night of jumping on one another's cases, I found this to be utterly hilarious. Howard M - --------------58E3FAC6195D1272C642E1DB Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="howard_scptv.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Howard Motyl Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="howard_scptv.vcf" begin:vcard n:Motyl;Howard tel;fax:312-421-7714 tel;work:312-421-7711 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:SCPtv Worldwide adr:;;400 N. May St., Suite 201;Chicago;Illinois;60622;USA version:2.1 email;internet:howard_scptv@interaccess.com title:Director, Creative Development note:"Any time you have the opportunity to accomplish something for those coming behind you and you don't, you are wasting your time on this earth." Roberto Clemente x-mozilla-cpt:;3 fn:Howard Motyl end:vcard - --------------58E3FAC6195D1272C642E1DB-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:43:29 +0200 From: Marian Subject: Two tickets for Maryland concert 5/25 I still have two tickets for the Maryland concert. They are selling on eBay starting at $150, but maybe contact Lori Fye first if you are interested . Marian Vienna ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #204 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at ------- Siquomb, isn't she?