From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #158 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Monday, April 24 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 158 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- re: kate's ideas on joni and kilauren [pat holden ] Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby [catman ] Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Joni's management team ["P. Henry" ] fantastic! [CarltonCT@aol.com] Re: fantastic! [Mark Domyancich ] re: Joni Today Show Interview (more thoughts) ["Ray & Cathy" ] Re: Joni Today Show Interview (more thoughts) ["Mark or Travis" ] Coming Back From China [Julian51469@aol.com] tnt tape ["alan larson" ] Re: toontown, Krall and giving up baby [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 07:52:29 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: re: kate's ideas on joni and kilauren Kate du nord wrote: <> Kate, you make perfect sense..good points raised. To imagine giving up a child is impossible, even if you've done it and even then, the impossible-ness of it all stays with you. Relinquishment of a child is never easy, no matter what the circumstances, no matter how "right" anyone thinks it is. The act of relinquishing a child seeps through every cell, and affects most things you think about or do. At some level, it influences everything. I think this is a good subject to discuss because of the impact it inevitably has on Joni and her work. I know that it is something that a woman never really "gets over". I still stand with my thought that Joni and Kilauren had enough to deal with, just getting through the searching/finding/meeting without all the hoopla from the media . How very difficult it must be to deal with all that. mags - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 15:03:19 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby > > Catman: "She gave up her daughter for her art." > > I don't think this is true. Joni gave up her daughter *for her > daughter.* It wasn't in order to make it easier for her to pursue her > own interests; it was because she wanted her daughter to have the secure > home that she didn't trust herself to provide. It seems I misunderstood why Joni gave her daughter up. I had thought she gave her up because she wanted to establish herself as an artist. I just saw a documentarty where an artist did almost that-sent her daughter to live with her parents whilst she persued her career. No matter how one explains that, the child will feel that as rejection. I fully agree with the rest of what you had to say, though of course there are people who don't give a toss about their children and get rid because it is convenient or keep for the same reason. Not all mothers are good mothers. Giving birth does not make a mother. Those that do give up there children for adoption because it is really in the best interests of the child are indeed amazing people. That is love, no doubt about it. Unfortuneately there is not enough of that around. Children are the most precious thing the human race and we all take them far too lightly. As regards discrimination, oppression and abuse, children suffer the most. I renently heard of the Richard(?) and Jessica children who were handed back to their respective biological parents after having been adopted and living with their new famileies for years.Absolutely appalling. GThe caourts and the natutral parents certainly did not have the best interests of those poor children at haert. they just ripped them from the only homes they knew to satisfy themselves. The children, as usual, will pay the price. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 07:37:55 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: re: Case of you question >Does anyone know who A Case of You was written for?> not to pick on this post necessarily or the author of it. I'm sure someone has responded with what what they heard or read somwhere... (boy, am *I* behind!) but more to use this example for a hopefully short and enlightening rant. (remember I said hopefully) oft times we go threading off after the elusive 'who's this one about' clues and it just occurred to me that, of the many songs Joni's written about men and relationships with them, they just can't all be specifically 'about' someone. yes, we have very strong reality based 'about' songs like Rainy Night House about Leonard Cohen, for example, but, if we are to take Joni at her word in interviews and such, many of her songs are entirely fictional... or figurative... sometimes even in the third person like Free Man. simply put: they all aren't about someone. 'nuf said, pat *who is REALLY working on brevity* Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 10:55:20 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby In a message dated 00-04-23 10:04:43 EDT, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << Children are the most precious thing the human race and we all take them far too lightly. As regards discrimination, oppression and abuse, children suffer the most. >> The picture on the front page today of a storm trooper pointing a german made machine gun at Elian Gonzalez while forcibly removing him from his relatives was chilling to me. The most recent court decision affirmed that the administration is totally mishandling the matter but they did this anyway. Regardless of where one stands on the Elian matter vis a vis asylum, this was GROSS child abuse by our government. Subjecting a six year old to such trauma is a despicable act from an administration which purports to care so much about children. Our generation used to condemn such acts by the government when they were even close to this. Today the aquiescence is deafening. I personally am deeply saddened. I also agree with what you said about adoption. I admire Joni greatly for having gone this way years ago. Marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:50:40 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby In a message dated 4/23/00 10:59:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << The picture on the front page today of a storm trooper pointing a german made machine gun at Elian Gonzalez while forcibly removing him from his relatives was chilling to me. The most recent court decision affirmed that the administration is totally mishandling the matter but they did this anyway. Regardless of where one stands on the Elian matter vis a vis asylum, this was GROSS child abuse by our government. >> In my opinion, you'e ful of crap. The Miami relatives essentially had kidnapped Elian by refusing to turn him over when the courts and authorities told them to. Elian's father, as next of kin who is making a claim for his child, clearly has the right to his child. Mewanwhile, the relatives who were holding the boy hostage threatened violence (and were the first party to do so in this case) should the government attempt to take the boy. If your child were being held hostage, you would thank god that authorities were able to rescue the child from armed kidnappers and return him to you without anyone getting seriously hurt. Elian belongs with his father, and if his father is Cuban or Martian, that's where he should go. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:34:54 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Joni's management team sue wrote: >I couldn't help but notice that S.L. Feldman represents Diana. Isn't this the same mangement team that Joni has? They deserve a lot of credit for doing a terrific job of helping get Joni the recognition she deserves. I wonder if they represent some of the other artists at the tribute? Sue> well, to investigate, here's their hp: http://www.slfa.com and here's thir roster: Alannah Myles Albert Schultz Alpha Yaya Diallo Amanda Marshall Amy Sky Anne Murray April Wine Ashley MacIsaac Barenaked Ladies Barney Bentall Barra MacNeils Barrage Bif Naked Big Wreck Black Diamond Brothers Creeggan Bruce Guthro Bryan Adams Burton Cummings Captain Tractor Carlos Nunez Chantal Kreviazuk Charlie Major Chieftains Chris Cummings Coco Love Alcorn Colin James & The Little Big Band Copyright Cowboy Junkies Crash Test Dummies David Wilcox Dayna Manning DDT Diana Krall Doug & The Slugs Dr. Yellowfever Dunk Econoline Crush Edwin Emm Gryner Esthero Feeding Like Butterflies Finger Eleven Flashing Lights Furnaceface Gob Grapes of Wrath Harem Scarem Harlequin Helix Holly Cole Honeymoon Suite I Mother Earth Irish Descendants Irish Rovers j. Englishman Jacksoul Jann Arden Jazzberry Ram Jeff Healey Band Jelleestone Jesse Cook Jet Set Satellite Jim Byrnes Jim Witter John McDermott Johnny Favourite Swing Orch. JONI MITCHELL Joydrop Julian Austin Junkhouse Kenny Shields Killjoys Kim Mitchell Kim Stockwood La Bottine Souriante Laurel MacDonald Lawrence Gowan Leahy Len Lene Marlin Lhasa Lilith Fair Limblifter Local Rabbits Long John Baldry Loverboy MacKeel Made Mahones Marc Jordan Martina McBride Mary Jane Lamond Matthew Good Band Melanie Dekker Melanie Doane Michelle Wright Miller Stain Limit Moffatts Moist Mystery Machine Natalie MacMaster Nelley Furtado Northern Pikes Nylons Our Lady Peace Philosopher Kings Platinum Blonde Pocket Dwellers Prairie Oyster Prozzak Quartetto Gelato Rankins Rascalz Rita MacNeil Road Apples Robert Michaels Ron Sexsmith Rush Rymes with Orange Sarah McLachlan Sass Jordan Serial Joe Sissel Sky Slainte Mhath Sloan Son of Dave souLDecision Special Guests Spirit Of The West Sum 41 Tal Bachman Tara MacLean Templar The Tea Party Thrush Hermit Todd Kerns Band Tom Cochrane Tom Wilson Tony Lee Travoltas Treble Charger Trooper Wesley Chu Wide Mouth Mason Wild Strawberries Yve And Adam Zuckerbaby LITTLE BIG MAN BOOKING Arnold Bernard Butler Beth Orton Bic Runga Candy Butchers Catatonia Charlatans UK Cyclefly David Mead dEUS Devlins Dido Eagle Eye Cherry Embrace Faithless Fish Gay Dad Getaway People Gomez Gravel Pit Harvey Danger James Kendall Payne Lamb Letters To Cleo Levellers Lilith Fair Liz Phair Longpigs Manic Street Preachers Mark Lizotte Mayfield Four Neneh Cherry P.O.D. Paul Kelly Republica Rialto Richard Ashcroft Robbie Williams Shack Splashdown Stereophonics Stroke Superdrag Symposium Todd Thibaud Tricky Trinket Unbelievable Truth Whale Wood Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:59:19 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: fantastic! Just wanted to say congratulations and express my deepest thanks to Sue, Howard, Marian and Mark again for their amazing, painstaking efforts on the guitar site. Sue, the newly revamped Sue's Tab's is a wonder of organization - -- extremely helpful to guitarists who want to figure out how Joni plays her stuff and an enormous tribute to the genius of Joni Mitchell. How many hours did you spend reworking this amazing site? It's truly a labor of love. Yesterday I Iearned how to play Harry's House, and for whatever reason, the calluses on my fingers are still aching (all that sliding, I guess) but I realized immediately this was a tuning I had never played in. With the new improved Sue's Tabs, I learned within seconds that Harry's House is in the same tuning as Edith and the Kingpin and Furry Sings the Blues. Everyone who plays guitar should check it out. 25 years ago, I was frustrated that every Joni songbook but one had transcribed her open tuning chords to standard tuning with always disappointing results, but no one has to go through that frustration now thanks to the dedicated guitarists of this discussion group. xxoo, Clark np: John McLaughlin and Shakti, Best of ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 15:16:29 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: fantastic! Thanks for the kind words, Clark! I think we started on the project last November. Les had wanted us to think about all the stuff we wanted to do to the new site over Christmas break and if we thought of something Les could do it! It was really a great joy to redo all of the tabs (others may disagree) and input them all in the new format. I am really pleased with the results! Namaste, Mark NP-Shadows and Light-Woodstock At 1:59 PM -0400 4/23/00, CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: >Just wanted to say congratulations and express my deepest thanks to Sue, >Howard, Marian and Mark again for their amazing, painstaking efforts on the >guitar site. Sue, the newly revamped Sue's Tab's is a wonder of organization >-- extremely helpful to guitarists who want to figure out how Joni plays her >stuff and an enormous tribute to the genius of Joni Mitchell. How many hours >did you spend reworking this amazing site? It's truly a labor of love. - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net Tape trading --> homepage.mac.com/mtd/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:58:53 -0700 From: "Ray & Cathy" Subject: re: Joni Today Show Interview (more thoughts) Kakki writes: Subject: My Joni Mitchell Site For those new to the list I have a small Joni Mitchell Site at http://millennium.fortunecity.com/sherwood/452/ There you can find -midi files -icons -a cursor -Joni Mitchell Art Screen Saver ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 17:31:15 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni Today Show Interview (more thoughts) > I think it's simplistic to attribute her relationship ups and downs to being > an only child. No one has a perfect relationship with all the loved ones in > their lives. There are so many other factors in life that can bring > challenges to any particular relationship. And now I know some of you out > there who know I am also an only child are now thinking "aha, she's > defensive!" Well, from my own personal experience and from what I've read > in studies, only children *do* sometimes have difficulty understanding > where other people are coming from because they have not been exposed to the > give and take battles and negotiations experienced by children with > siblings. They are also very used to and content with being alone - solitude > is a natural state to them - and tend to be more independent. It's not so > much that the world revolves around them, but rather, that they tend to live > in their own world. Not a recipe for great success in all relationships, > but definitely a good recipe for stimulating creativity. I was gone all day yesterday and am just now catching up. I was wondering what reactions would be to my post on this subject. I worried that I might have tread on some toes or hurt some feelings. Whenever it appears that you are generalizing, you almost always get into trouble. First of all, thank you Kakki for not flogging me & burning me at the stake. I agree that to say all of Joni's relationship difficulties stem from her being an only child is simplistic. And I also realize that not every one who is an only child grows up to be a certain way. I certainly never meant to imply that. I hope you know, Kakki, that I hold you in very high regard and that I never intended to say that you or anyone else who grew up without syblings is self-centered. I *have*, however, seen & heard about people that were affected by being the only child in certain ways. The co-worker I spoke of loves her step-daughter very much and always speaks of her with pride and love. However, she did say that this step-daughter grew up to be a certain way because she missed out on sharing with syblings while growing up and had a hard time later in life when she was no longer the sole focus of attention. She also said that an only child often tends to have those kinds of issues. True of some, maybe. But it would certainly be wrong to assume that it is true in all cases. As far as Joni's concerned, I know there are people on the list that don't like any kind of prying or speculation about her personal life. It makes me uncomfortable at times myself. I did have a bit of a moral debate with myself before I sent my post. But Joni & her music are so fascinating to me that I can't help speculating about what makes her tick. And I wanted to find out what other list members thought. This is a discussion list, after all! I agree that Joni's giving her daughter up was a devating event in her life and I think the mourning for that loss has colored so many of the songs she's written in one way or another. And my heart goes out to her now. I'm sure Laura is right. There must be many thorny issues between these two to be unravelled and the unravelling is going to be painful for both of them. Certainly it's highly likely that this would put Joni into a funk. There was such an exhilirating high after the reunion and now the reality sets in. But I do think that maybe Joni paints Myrtle a little bit too much the villain. Papa brought home the sugar, after all. Without a brother or sister to share all that affection & attention with, who's going to teach the child that other things matter besides her own wants & needs? If Bill isn't going to do it, poor Myrtle has to play the bad guy. From her own descriptions of herself, I'm sure Joni was a handful in her teen years and probably before. I remember thinking that my parents were so ridiculous and out of touch when I was in my early 20s. I thought all they were concerned about was money & what would the neighbors think. It took me awhile but I've finally come to realize all the sacrifices they made & the struggle it was to raise three kids on one salary. More importantly, I have come to realize that if I have any moral fiber at all, it is largely attributable to my mother & father who love me unconditionally & set a wonderful example of self-effacing integrity & honesty for me. Lastly, I wonder about some of the lyrics of Joni's songs: I'm so hard to handle, I'm selfish and I'm sad I tried to run away myself To run away & wrestle with my ego During times like these the wise are influential *They can bear the imperfections*, they can keep the harmonies No doubt about it, no doubt that's essential No doubt that's *always been a tricky one for me* Last chance lost We talk of love in terms of sacrifice and compromise .......... Last chance lost The hero cannot make the change Last chance lost The shrew will not be tamed. Now I would agree that if a relationship has come down to nothing but sacrifice & compromise then it isn't healthy and needs a serious overhauling or to be put out of it's misery. But anybody who has ever been in a long term relationship knows that making it work involves a certain amount of sacrifice & compromise. It's just the hard, cold reality whenever two people are in any kind of relationship - family, co-workers, friends, significant others - both parties can't always have everything thing their own way. I think that may be harder for some than others and I think Joni is one or those that it is harder for. For whatever reason. I don't mean that as a criticism. God knows I'm far from perfect & have no business judging Joni or anyone else. It's just a speculation based on observation. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 17:50:37 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: toontown, Krall and giving up baby If anything her wealth that came so soon after, > made her feel more heartache for giving up her child. > > > Penny Oooo!! This is good Penny! Some of those lyrics that seem to express guilt about being wealthy & famous could very well have sprung from this place, I think! Nice insight! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:03:52 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Today Show Interview (more thoughts) Mark wrote: << I did have a bit of a moral debate with myself before I sent my post. But Joni & her music are so fascinating to me that I can't help speculating about what makes her tick. And I wanted to find out what other list members thought. This is a discussion list, after all!>> I'm glad the part of you that wanted to post it won the debate, Mark! I know that there's a major difference between prying into someone's personal biz out of morbid curiosity and analyzing a person's life milestones to better understand the impact it's had on her art. I believe the latter is where most of keep the discussion. << Lastly, I wonder about some of the lyrics of Joni's songs: I'm so hard to handle, I'm selfish and I'm sad I tried to run away myself To run away & wrestle with my ego >> I always felt with both of these lines like she was parrotting back things that people had said ABOUT her, not things she believed about herself. The first one, all those things would be what her lover accused her of being, and she follows it with "now I've gone and lost the best baby that I've ever had".... The "Coyote" line I particularly felt was tongue-in-cheek, especially when she adds "great big ego" on the S&L version. Anyway, I'm certainly not in disagreement with anything you've said, and I think the study of her being an only child and how that affects her relationships, and how it ALL affects her art, is a very fascinating take. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:25:15 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: My Joni Mitchell Site In a message dated 4/23/00 6:24:33 PM US Central Standard Time, slarty@total.net writes: << http://millennium.fortunecity.com/sherwood/452/ >> Very nice job, Ken! I downloaded the screen saver...45 paintings! You really worked hard on it, and it shows. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:49:12 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Joni's Lovers Hey Tina, I like your style. Sort of Joan Rivers- enter talking, right? Anyway, Joni was married to Larry for 10 years. More than a nanosecond- especially in "show" business! Here's a tip about Joni's lovers. There was a fake post when scientists cloned a goat. The premise was how the world would be different if Joni was cloned. The poster suggested that one Joni could perform while another wrote. You get the idea. They also suggested that if there were 4 Jonis, there would be one each for Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young. That's probably about as much as you're going to get from the JMDL community. Besides, I never talk about exgirlfriends........ :) Tina said: Finally what I most want to plumb is the mystery of all Joni's men. i will personally make a donation to the producer of this digest if anyone can give me a "discography" of sorts listing all the men of her intimate life and the songs they go to. I really wish just one of them would share his side of the story! I mean what happened in the marriage to Larry Klein? that bit the dust in a nanosecond! What gives? All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:16:24 EDT From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Coming Back From China Hello all!!! I've been taking a two month, five day a week, 6 hours a day Chinese course and working on the weekends...as a result I've fallen horribly behind on all of the posts (I'm back at #117 - ughhh!) (Hello Bob, Kakki, CatGirl, Patrick, Wally K, Azeem, Ashara, Catherine and all the other folks too) Can someone, anyone fill me in on these four important items to my Joni world: 1) Is there a video tree, or can I trade for a copy of the TNT special? (Did someone tape the actuall show - please, please, please) 2) Is there a rendezvous for JMDLers at the Washington, DC show? If so I'd love to know about it. 3) Has there been any recent tape trees or offers lately...for any of the new folks...I'd be happy to pass on my list for trades - I have quite a lot thanks to the graciousness of this list. 4) How is it going with the possible recording of the JoniFest in Naw'lins? I loved hearing about the New York show and can't wait to hear Richard Thompson doing more Joni covers after all of these years. Also, I'm ecstatic at the whole diverse lineup of folks and see it as another addition to the concert last July. I really love all that I have experienced from this family (JMDL) and look foreward to putting more time in to it. Zaijien (See you later) Zou hou (Walk well) Julian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:19:07 -0000 From: "alan larson" Subject: tnt tape I did tape the tnt tribute, but right now do not have any means of copying... if you would be able to make a copy, and pay the shipping charges... i could help you out... or anyone else for that matter alan in ames, still in disbelief anyone could find anything "forced" about diana krall's performance of ACOY lauper, krall, taylor, and thompson.... wow... incredible still not sure what to think about the new circle game ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:43:21 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: toontown, Krall and giving up baby I wrote: <> Mark sounding in agreement added: <> Is it safe to speculate just a bit further? Is it a coincidence that at about the same time Joni started to make an earnest attempt to seek resolve about the child she gave up....attempt to find/reunite with Kelly/Kilauren, whether it was a public search that had started yet or just a personal determination only Joni and a handful of friends and family knew, that that's when Joni started playing a more active role in becoming a public success? (She's had the critical acclaim, respect of her peers and the very loyal fanbase, but I'm talking about her success to the masses here.) Starting with the release of TI Joni began making TV appearances again, gave far more interviews, did the radio broadcast from the Gene Autry Museum, and started touring again. I guess the question that comes to me is, that after all the issues of her lost child were willing to be confronted, maybe it was also OK in Joni's eyes to become the huge and widely known success she really is? Does anyone follow my drift here? I mean early in her career she was busy trying to make a living, writing and touring to escape and/or purge herself from that devastation, but never succeeding....striving for but resenting her own success all the while? But trauma's like that are generally easier to temporarily deal with (and mask) early on, while years later, 10, 20, 30 years down the road, the emotional burden is just to heavy to carry anymore and the courage (need) to find complete resolve is finally sought. Hence a connection to reuniting with Kilauren and her more public activity in the last few years? To state the same as Mark and others have, I don't like to pry into other's lives either, but I do try to understand what makes people I care for tick. And I'm from the camp that would rather not know all the *whos* of Joni's songs, just because it limits how any particular song could apply to my take on it. But I certainly don't judge anyone who does like to know more specifics of the subjects of Joni's songs. ;-) Don't blast me, OK? I'm just throwing out some food for thought. Penny :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Grace dies when it becomes us versus them......Philip Yancey ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #158 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?