From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #65 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, February 15 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 065 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Both Sides Later. [Martin Giles ] Re: siquomb ["Matthew Hall" ] Valentine's Both Sides Now Blessing! [KCooper984@aol.com] joni's paintings [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #64 [Kate ] Deleted Joni [Martin Giles ] Re: Deleted Joni ["Catherine McKay" ] BSN*RE issue date [Randy Remote ] Paintings...& Critics ["Michael Paz" ] Re: BSN NY Times Review ["Eric Taylor" ] RE: A Case Of Joni and straight Joni fans [Louis Lynch ] BSN Reviews Overview [Bounced Message ] Croz and Joan ["Michael Paz" ] Larry Klein ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Heart on her sleeve [Scott Price ] RE: Deleted Joni ["Chris Marshall" ] News From Reprise [RIKandBRAD@aol.com] My Turn-On to Joni Radio By A Straight Man [RIKandBRAD@aol.com] Re: Don Rowe's comments ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Deleted Joni ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Deleted Joni [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #93 ["Lance A. Michel" ] Re: BSN NY Times Review [Dflahm@aol.com] Madonna? [Johnwe2@aol.com] Re: BSN NY Times Review ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: BSN Review - LI Newsday ["Eric Taylor" ] Reprise Response [Lindsay Moon ] Joni's picture frames [Marian ] FW: BSN NY Times Review ["Ross, Les" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:18:33 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: Both Sides Later. Hi Julius. Hey, one thing's for certain, if you want to be sure of being responded to on the list, just hint that you don't like some part of Joni's music!! Seriously though, I might have given the impression that I won't like BSN when I hear it. This isn't true. I probably will. With Joni, my appreciation goes from extreme, undying bottomless love, to liking quite a lot. With only one or two exceptions, I don't dislike anything of hers. Which for me, marks her out from every other artist I've ever heard. Nor am I generally someone who doesn't like complex or 'difficult' music. Other than with her SIQUOMBness, I very much like big, and/or complex arrangements. My musical taste takes in artists from Bach to Bjork, and Shostakovich to Frank Zappa. I'm trying to fathom this contradiction in myself, and I think it might be something to do with the fact that Joni's lyrics have so much more to give than almost any other artist I know. (Actually, ANY other artist that I know). It's as if her words supply all the complexity and depth that I need. When all's said and done - I'm quite prepared to find a knew way of loving Joni when I get BSN. As I said to Fred, the sound of me crunching through my hat may well be echoing across the internet in a month or so's time. atb Martin. JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > > First things first: thanks for the catchy subject line, Martin. That > tickles. Very clever indeed. Really. > > And you had me going for a spell with sound logic on the 'limited edition' > thing. Form should follow function if you ask me. On this we concur. > > But we part ways on your narrow interpretation of what is lovable in her > music. I've been immersing myself in her lyrical, musical and emotional > complexity. Plus, evolution is real...let's get used to it. "Repetition > without examination is death" someone said across these wires. Word. > > -Julius > > Martin writes: > > << I think the reason for this is that I've come to love Joni most when the > orchestration in her music is simple. Preferably just her and her > guitar, but a small band is fine. For instance her rendition of Just > Like This Train on the PWWAM video is for me a thousand times better > than the original studio/band version. Now she has surrounded herself > with big band and orchestra and it's going in the wrong direction for > me. >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:00:19 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: siquomb thank you regarding the siquomb thing ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:14:33 EST From: KCooper984@aol.com Subject: Valentine's Both Sides Now Blessing! Hi Everyone! I just got a Happy Valentine's Day gift!!!!!!!!!!!! My Both Sides Now came today....and guess what????? It's FINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel so blessed! I'm so thankful!! I've just listened once through.....and am now starting up the second time.........I guess I felt all full of emotions listening......It's so hard to explain. So many feelings.. My eyes did fill. I think that especially A Case of You got to me because that has always been one of my favorite Joni songs. It's almost like Joni and I have grown up together........and now we are both looking at life from "both sides now." This reminds me of the Stormy Weather recording from AT&T. I recently just got Stormy Weather and have to say that I love this as well. I do hope that in the future that Joni continues recording her old songs with an orchestra... LOVE IT!!! LOVE IT!!! LOVE IT!!!!!!!! And as far as her art work goes.........Joni rules!!!! I don't care what any of you say!! ;-) Tsk! Tsk! Bob!!!! Paint by number!!!! No way! Happy Valentine's Day all!!! I Love you Joni!!! I LOVE BOTH SIDES NOW!!!!!!! Happy Listening, Sue Cooper NP: You're My Thrill ( Both Sides Now is my new thrill!!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:22:17 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: joni's paintings i like her paintings, as much as they reflect where she is in her music as they are attractive to look at. what i mean is that her ti paintings gogh with the music (pun intended). and her ttt paintings again, go with the music. they look like the songs sound. and, i even like the frames around the edges. but i'll tell you this: i don't like chain italian restraunts and i don't like food from gas stations and i don't like beer in the can. i just may be an art red neck. pat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:38:20 -0700 From: Kate Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #64 > I think it's time > that we were secure enough in our straightness that we > just let it play, come out to the world, put on DED at > full blast in the car with the windows down and drive > into the city. You do not know how liberating that can > be especially if you own one of them four-wheelers > with big honking tires. > > Robert Ha! Thanks for the image, Robert. And you're right. Many men have the attitude that Joni's music is "girl music", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. It's an attitude worth growing out of. Sorry, I don't know who wrote this: > I showed the pictures to a painter-friend of mine and the first thing she > said was, "well, the frames alone explain it all". Oh yeah, that explains everything. I'd call it Joni's personal taste in picture frames, and that's about it. Kate of the North ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:12:41 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Deleted Joni Hi everyone. Had an odd experience at the weekend. I went into MVC in Harrow to get a copy of Blue on CD for a freind who needs an introduction to Joni. As usual, it wasn't in the racks. The only ever seem to have FTR, Hits and MOA. Nothing daunted, I went to the counter to order a copy, but the assistant looked it up and said, "I can get it for you on cassette, but it's been deleted on CD." Deleted? Blue? Surely not? Has anyone else found this? atb, Martin. In London. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:05:13 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Deleted Joni Martin queries: >Had an odd experience at the weekend. I went into MVC in Harrow to get a >copy of Blue on CD for a freind who needs an introduction to Joni. As >usual, it wasn't in the racks. The only ever seem to have FTR, Hits and >MOA. Nothing daunted, I went to the counter to order a copy, but the >assistant looked it up and said, "I can get it for you on cassette, but >it's been deleted on CD." > >Deleted? Blue? Surely not? Has anyone else found this? Not at all. Perhaps "deleted" as they understand it, but certainly available - you may have to order through an online service (such as CDNow) (Ignorant swine that work in these places, mumble, mumble.) And yet, I'm convinced that some of the better stores (the ones that carry things going beyond top 40 stuff) would likely have it... Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:04:24 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: BSN*RE issue date Martin Giles wrote: > And I'll be getting the regular version of BSN as soon as it gets > released over here in the UK. By the way - does anyone know when that > is? According to the billboard article, Mar 21 in the US, and Feb 28 elsewhere. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:23:21 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Paintings...& Critics Hello All- I have to say that I think Joni's artwork has always been brilliant. I don't know jack about art, but I DO know what I like and I think she is way up there with all the greats. I have a weak spot for Monet, Gaugain, Van Gogh, and many others in the French Impressionist era, but then I have seen a couple of paintings that I liked in a Motel 6 (but then maybe I was just high at the time. A far as the critics go, I think alot of them tend to write in a bitter tone for whatever reason and if they have nothing but bad to say I always wonder why they invested the time or bothered in the first place. Then I also wonder why the critics rave for something like Ray of Light or the Lauren Hill thing and I just DON'T hear it (even tho I tried). Oh well "viva la diferencia". I have been listening to BSN almost non stop and I really like the arrangements, her voice is magnificent, and the song selection is superb and also unique. I think if the record company gets behind this and gets some promotional $$$ behind it, and a little hard work, she can pick up some new fans and get some decent sales out of it. I spoke with her management on the phone and gave a report on all the damaged CD's (which they had not heard about yet) and he was going to get ahold of Reprise and get back to me. I will also have another announcement at the beginning of next week regarding Joni info (and NO it's not that she is gonna be in New Orleans on Memorial Day weekend I WISH). Peace Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:29:59 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review Debra wrote: << Eric, I don't understand what you're so upset about and why you so hatefully dismiss this entire review and characterize the reviewer in such an ugly way. Throughout it, Holden makes many comments about the new-found emotional depth and power of Joni's voice. Joni's voice HAS deteriorated (so hate me for saying that if you choose to). She's really straining in some parts of BSN to get the sound out, which was very obvious even in my cursory listening. Now she's sometimes almost talking instead of singing. Compare that to her fluid vocal gymnastics when she was younger. The trade-off is a much richer, more emotional sound, and in various ways Holden emphasizes that and praises Joni throughout the review. I guess you think you're being enthusiastic, but your absolutist, all-or-nothing attitude is really ugly and brainless. (so hate me again) And why not complain about the NY Daily News review? That was much more negative than this one. >> It's funny, three people emailed me offlist expressing their complete agreement with my reaction to the NY Times Review. I am not a hateful, ugly, brainless person, Debra. What pissed me off so much was Holden's opening statement: "FEW contemporary voices have aged more shockingly than Joni Mitchell's.The craggy alto on "Both Sides Now"... is so changed from the sweetly yodeling folk soprano of her earliest albums that it hardly seems possible the two sounds could have come from the same body." This is the type of ageism typical of the American media. Joni is pushing 60 & for people to complain that she no longer sounds 20 is maddening! Having had more than a "cursory listening" of BSN I hear no "straining... to get the sound out. I don't "Compare that to her fluid vocal gymnastics when she was younger." & most importantly I don't consider Joni's older voice "shockingly craggy" or a "trade off." Our superficial pop culture equates aging with deterioration, especially when it comes to women. Joni's younger voice would sound ridiculous attempting the classics on BSN. IMO the new versions of A Case Of You & Both Sides Now are FAR superior to the originals in every way. This is the second time that the NYT has portrayed Joni as being over the hill (remember that extremely unflattering blow up they used in their review of TTT?). NYC is the bastion of youth-worship plaguing our world with anorexic chic. I pictured Joni crying reading that harsh review by a supposed fan. The NYT is one of the most influential newspapers on earth & Holden's ageist review will no doubt discourage many people from buying BSN. It is not hatred of insensitive reviewers, but rather my love of Joni's music, that motivates my occasional outbursts. One more thing: Why is it that listers rarely respond to my nice posts but jump down my throat every time I express a strong opinion? It really makes me want to unsubscribe sometimes. Lovingly, E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:12:20 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: A Case Of Joni and straight Joni fans Thanks to everyone for posting the complete text of various reviews of Both Sides Now. It's one of the best benefits of being on the list. Please keep sharing them. However, I am shocked at how vehemently some of you are responding to the critics. They are only critics! Their jobs require them to give their opinion about musical products. They have every right to toss around Joni's "latest golden egg," according to the rules of popular culture. Actually, I think the BSN reviews are surprisingly positive. Having followed Joni since the early days, I must say that this album has met with more favorable reviews than any since "Blue." My God, remember what they did to Mingus! Still anxious to receive my copy of BSN, I haven't found any review to be overly mean or harsh or even unjustifiable. Some of the responses from this list are much more vitriolic than anything the critics have said. At the same time, I find the list's emotional pitch about BSN a little reassuring. Recently, I had decided to stop entering discussions because I was weary of the attack-driven nature of the posts. And I was tired of being called names just for bringing up a counter opinion -- even my jests were attacked. As I explained to someone privately, I bowed out because I did not like the name-calling and inflammatory accusations on this "discussion" list. (And I hear other lists are even worse!) Seeing the treatment of reviewers (who are actually doing Joni a favor by publicizing her work instead of totally ignoring her), I feel a little better about some of the past responses I received for my posts. I now realize that it's just the nature of some of the people on the list. Like Joni, I guess we're a politically oriented, intelligent and way outspoken group. STRAIGHT GUYS DO LIKE JONI MITCHELL Also, I keep reading posts that imply that straight men don't like Joni. VERY WRONG!!! I don't believe it for a minute! As an ardent fan for decades, I have met a lot of straight men who love Joni Mitchell. All my (straight) musician friends love her to death. And I've played Joni Mitchell songs, at the request of the grooms, at three weddings. In fact, none of my gay friends care for her. Until I joined this list, I can honestly say that I had never met a gay man that liked Joni Mitchell. Wait a minute, am I in trouble again here? If my non-gay friends like Joni and my gay friends don't, does that make me a homophobe? Regards, Harper Lou By the way, for anyone who is interested in my nonsmoking adventure... After finding too many cars in the office parking lot with external pieces ripped off and strewn about, my coworkers recommended that I see a doctor. I'm now on medication, and everything is wonderful, I think Barney the dinosaur is really really cute, Oprah is really really wise, Britney Spears can sing really really pretty, and I'm starting to really really understand the poetry of e. e. cummings. So God bless you all.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:00:17 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Feeling Very Fortunate! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:29:00 -0800 (PST) From: mystery touch Got my copy of BSN from my fave local CD store... loved it, of course... decided that my lady could not live her life without her own copy... went back and bought the only other one the store had... gave it to her... much gratitude heaped upon me... and both copies are in superb condition without skips or blemishes... saw my words on Joni's site... Feeling pretty good about things these days! Hope everyone is well. Regards! Craig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:59:23 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: BSN Reviews Overview Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:16:17 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: BSN Reviews Overview I'm actually quite amazed at the favorable majority of reviews out for BSN. From the moment I first heard of the project, I fully expected Joni to be hoisted on a pittard for trying her hand at standards. Historically, critics look at efforts like this as tantamount to walking through sacred ground with muddy shoes -- but not so in Joni's case. It's good to see her getting consistently good press for this release.Even the NYTimes review, source of much tearing of hair and gnashing of teeth recently, seemed to me very even-handed and primarily favorable. Let's face it folks, Joni's voice now has more in common with Piaf's and Holliday's later recordings than it does Judy Collins or Lena Horne's. That the reviewer pointed it out seemed to me in no way mean-spirited. It also seems perfectly reasonable to me that an orchestrally arranged version of "A Case of You" could ring a bit funny in some ears. As for Joni carping during an interview ... like that's some kind of a fir! st??? If you want a rarity, find me an interview where Joni DOESN'T whine to one degree or another, and I'll be suitably impressed! Her interview style is far more paint-by-numbers than her actual paintings, really.Last but not least, since having a "presence" or "identity" in pop music these days seems to require weighing 700+ lbs. and dying from a heart attack in order to get noticed -- I'd prefer that Joni remain safely annonymous. Don Rowe "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:02:00 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Croz and Joan Hello Lists- Here is something I found in the latest Acoustic Guitar mag, that I thought you might enjoy. In a conversation about writing songs-- AG- And you wake up and write it all down? DC- Yeah. One of the big effects on my writing was {Joni} Mitchell telling me to write stuff down. She said. "David you throw away more good phrases in an afternoon than most people can come up with in a week. What's wrong with you, you brainless twit? Write your shit down!" And I learned from her that if you get even two words in a row that mean something, that make you feel something, you should write them down. So I do. Further down they talk about David and Joni writing Yvette in English together. DC-I live it dearly. But she truly, truly ran with it. I only gave her the bare bones of what that song is. I still have what I wrote, and you can see that she started where I started, but she's a way better writer than I am, and she went for it. That song is at least three quarters hers. She wrote all the music. She wrote at least as many of the words as I did. And she took it to a level that I could never have gotten it to. I think she is the most brilliant singer-songwriter of all. I mean, I love Dylan. He's a good poet. But musically, she's light years ahead of him, and that's what kicks it over the top for me. and tunings AG- Getting back to Joni Mitchell for a second, were you both coming up with alternate tunings at the same time? DC-I was working in tunings when I met her, and she was working in tunings, so we influenced each other. She was writing songs like "Michael From Mountains," and I was writing "Guinnevere," and we couldn't help but listen to each other. I think she's probably more advanced at it than anybody except Michael Hedges. Michael Hedges was pretty much unquestionably the finest acoustic guitar player of this century. He took tunings to a level that nobody except Joni has ever gotten close to. Hope everybody enjoys this. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:11:17 GMT From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Larry Klein I really like Larry Klein even thought I think he is a little serious. If he should be criticised it should be for the preface to the BSN album. to quote: 'The album would be a programmatic suite documenting a relationship from initial flirtation through optimistic consumation, metamorphosing into disillisionment, ironic despair, and finally resolving in the philosophical overview of acceptance and the probability of the cycle repeating itself.' I mean, how NOT to set a mood! Otherwise I like him, and his little acting debut in Grace Of My Heart. He's a good guy who really knows the modern sound and I think he was responsible for the clarity and sound in WTRF. (well I have got a gold version). Okay so DED is a little *too* modern.... but it's an amazing sound. Jamie Zoob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:30:13 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Heart on her sleeve At 10:00 AM 2/14/00 EST, TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: >The final, breaking point for me was seeing that close up >of the heart on her sleeve on the CD. Is it possible that Joni is giving the more casual viewer of art a clue? I will admit that had I not previously read JMDL posts about this "heart on her sleeve" image I honestly don't know if I would have noticed it. By putting that close-up on the CD itself, those who are not astute observers of the art will see it and make the connection. As in "hmmm...heart on her sleeve...what's she trying to tell us?" Leading to further examination of the litho(s) and more contemplation of the art and its meanings. For some of us not well schooled in the visual arts we need all the help we can get. And who sez her work ain't accessible? :-) Scott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:43:58 -0000 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Deleted Joni > Had an odd experience at the weekend. I went into MVC in Harrow to get a > copy of Blue on CD for a freind who needs an introduction to Joni. As > usual, it wasn't in the racks. The only ever seem to have FTR, Hits and > MOA. Nothing daunted, I went to the counter to order a copy, but the > assistant looked it up and said, "I can get it for you on cassette, but > it's been deleted on CD." > > Deleted? Blue? Surely not? Has anyone else found this? Er. I bought a copy about two weeks ago - there were more than one in the store (HMV Cambridge, UK). Not that it proves a thing... It would be very strange if it had been deleted though. Stupid even. - --Chris Chris Marshall Secure Systems Integration Ltd Web: http://www.secure-si.co.uk/ Tel: +44 (0) 7970 459 553 Fax: +44 (0) 1954 201 741 E-mail: chris@secure-si.co.uk PGP key: http://www.secure-si.co.uk/chris/pubkey.txt Fingerprint: 86F2 8809 FAC2 37ED 491A FD7D 7CAF 3206 E706 D3B3 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:26:30 EST From: RIKandBRAD@aol.com Subject: News From Reprise Here's what I got today from Reprise: Dear Customer, Thank you for ordering Joni Mitchell's Limited Edition of "Both Sides Now" from Time Warner Order Center. Unfortunately, due to manufacturing problems, this product is currently on backorder. Please accept our sincere apologies for the delay in shipment. We expect to have additional inventory this week and will be contacting you gain regarding the status of your order in the next several days. Thank you for your understanding. I you would like to cancel your order, please contact us as soon as possible at (800) 274-9700 or email us at TWOC@WEAC.com. Regards, Time Warner Order Center Customer Service I'm gonna hang in there, cause I know it will be a good one! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:01:32 EST From: RIKandBRAD@aol.com Subject: My Turn-On to Joni Radio By A Straight Man Richard Rice wrote: > Admit it Bob, you are a rare bird for a straight male. I don't think she > was attacking her straight male fans, just commenting on her own > perception of the demographics of her fan base. Randy Remote Wrote: >I am one of those straight males, and when I think about >it, I don't think I've ever met another SM who is a Joni >fan. This after 30 solid years of fandom. Plenty of Allman >Bros or G Dead fans, etc. I have been reading with interest the allegations that Joni can only be heard by gay men, and some enlightened straight men. I thought only dogs had the ability to hear sounds we humans cannot hear (okay, folks, I know she was talking about demos, but I couldn't resist). Actually, although amusing, this whole discussion makes me uneasy - I mean, isn't it really about our collective appreciation of a musician and (a spotty group -myself included) our collective appreciation of a painter. We should resist being divisive, there aren't too many of us out there! In 1976, my red, white and blue coming out year, I was turned-on to Joni Mitchell by my good pal, fellow student, coworker, and object of my misplaced affections, Mike Z, straight man. On the way to surf one day, flying down MacArthur Blvd in Newport Beach, The Wild Man plugged MOA into the 8-track dash of his 60s-someting VW bug (not SuperBeetle), let out a yelp, and said - you gotta hear this far out chick singer. Having just abandoned/divorced/got done with Carly Simon after Hotcakes and that annoying AM-ish Mockingbird song, I was more ready to continue my exploration of Peter Frampton, Led Zepplin, Armatrating and the like. But, out of my infatuation for The Wild Man, I listened, knowing he would want to yak up the chick later. But, Joni caught me by the shorts with the r-n-r sounding Big Yellow Taxi. I was hooked. It was that easy. Too bad Mike wasn't. While my exploration of JM music continued fervently, my unrequited relationship with The Wild Man went into a death spiral. When I exposed the Pride of my coming out day to him, it died. My still-broken heart holds him true regardless. Through a mutual friend, I was told he attended the JM/Dylan-fest at UCLA with older JM t-shirts on himself, his wife and two kids. Haven't seen him since '76, but would have loved to see that. Happy Valentine's Day from Hollywood. With fondness and absolute admiration for the JMDL family, Richard in Hollywood Last Seen in Detroit in '68 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:18:01 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Don Rowe's comments Catherine wrote: >Isn't it ironic how >every female singer/songwriter is compared to Joni and yet, no one (except >for some VERY special people!) seem to have a clue who Joni is? How much do >music critics get paid? I want that job. Sounds like fun. Being paid to >do what you LIKE to do all day. I was having almost exactly this conversation with someone a couple of days ago! He is the only person I know who likes Joni as much as I do, let alone knows who she is (and for the record, he's a "straight" man from the UK)! But we were discussing Joni and how much she is respected by other artists, and (in general) by the media, and yet she hasn't really caught on with the general public. Now, no flames for this - I know she WAS very popular in the 70's etc - but she's still making records, and it really seems that no one but us knows about it! Apart, of course, from all my friends who I bore to death all the time with Joni-stories! Hell _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:25:14 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Deleted Joni Martin wrote: >Had an odd experience at the weekend. I went into MVC in Harrow to get a >copy of Blue on CD for a freind who needs an introduction to Joni. As >usual, it wasn't in the racks. The only ever seem to have FTR, Hits and >MOA. Nothing daunted, I went to the counter to order a copy, but the >assistant looked it up and said, "I can get it for you on cassette, but >it's been deleted on CD." Maybe this guy was the brother/cousin/nephew/uncle/father of the cretin in the Borders store here who told me that the Both Sides Now - Limited Edition CD package had been deleted - this was before the official US release date - and that he couldn't order it because it was a "bargain-bin special". Honestly, I wouldn't put too much stock in anything some store clerks tell you. I'm sure they're just making stuff up! And in the words of Edina (Absolutely Fabulous) to an extremely stuck-up assistant in an art gallery "You only work in a shop, you know, so lose the attitude!" Hell P.S. Celebrity sighting (about 3 weeks ago)! Lucy Lawless (Xena, Warrior Princess) and her new baby, enjoying a coffee in the sun at Starbucks in Mission Bay here in Auckland (at least Lucy was drinking coffee - not sure about the baby)! _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:20:26 -0500 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Deleted Joni order a copy, but the>Deleted? Blue? Surely not? Has anyone else found this? Blue was recently remastered. If they looked it up under the old bar code it would show up deleted since the old version was discontinued. The remastered version is considered a new release and will have its own barcode. Victor http://www.mindspring.com/~waytoblu/Tangled.htm NP: Nillson Schmillson > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:16:06 -0800 From: "Lance A. Michel" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #93 I saw this post today and really liked it......Here's hoping y'all do too.......Hope y'all are well today.......Talk with you soon........ Peas & Be Sound...Sir Lance Anonymous poster: "They had started to gather quietly, first Linus and Lucy and Rerun, going out to her booth. There they were joined by Schroeder, Roy, and Franklin. As they passed the school, Miss Othmar, Sally Brown, Peppermint Patty and Marcie joined them. On past the playground, where they met Pig-Pen, 5, Patty, Violet, and Frieda. The group was growing larger as they made their way through the neighborhood, past the tree where Conrad, Bill, Harriet and Woodstock joined them. Snoopy climbed off his doghouse and followed. Finally, they reached the field. There, alone on the pitcher's mound, stood Charlie Brown, inconsolable, more alone than he'd ever been. One figure approached from the crowd. Her bright face framed by red hair, she took him in her arms and said, "I miss him, too." They all gathered around the pair, and held on to each other, not knowing what to do now. Their inspiration was gone. Then, someone walked in from the outfield. He was the new kid in the neighborhood. He said, "Why are you all crying?" They turned as one to face him, how could he not know? The looked at this kid with the bland face, glasses, wearing a light sweater. Charlie Brown moved through the shocked crowd, and stood before the newcomer. "Sparky?", he breathed, not quite daring to hope. "Why, yes, that's me. And you're--" "Charlie Brown." With that, each one came and introduced themselves to the person who'd created them. Then, two adults came by, and Sparky ushered them forward. "Mom, Dad--this is the gang. Guys, this is my mom and dad." Then, Charlie Brown said, "Let's play ball." They gang took their positions, with uncounted numbers of people watching in the stands. Charlie Brown's first pitch was met by Sparky's bat in a line drive that left the pitcher sitting on the ground in his underwear. The game was on once again. This time, there would be no stopping it. Someone motioned toward the field, and commented, "Heaven takes many forms, doesn't it?" Down on the pitcher's mound, putting his clothes back on as Sparky rounded the bases, Charlie Brown knew that the good life was just getting started. Inspiration could, after all, come from within. - -- Lance A. Michel: - -There are as many shades to reality as there are windows unto the soul- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:33:57 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review Sorry, Eric, but I don't really think Stephen Holden was COMPLAINING about the quality of JM's 56-year-old voice. "Shockingly" expresses surprise at least as much as it suggests disapproval or distress. If I were to criticize Holden on this review it would be for his assuring us that Joni has been trying to be a smoky-voiced jazz chanteuse since the mid-1970s. He certainly listens with different ears than mine to HEJIRA, HOSL, DJRD and S&L. LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:43:31 EST From: Johnwe2@aol.com Subject: Madonna? When did this become the Madonna discussion list? Please don't forget NJC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:30:28 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review David Lahm noted: <<...I don't really think Stephen Holden was COMPLAINING about the quality of JM's 56-year-old voice. "Shockingly" expresses surprise at least as much as it suggests disapproval or distress. >> It was Holden's unfortunate choice of the word "craggy" to describe Joni's voice that set me off. Craggy means "rough, hard or rugged in form." This & his further assessment of Joni's "vocal deterioration" makes me certain that he was expressing sheer disapproval. I am shocked that any Joni fans are trying to defend Stephen Holden's highly insulting review! E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:50:58 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: BSN Review - LI Newsday BSN Review - LI Newsday << The good news is that Mitchell's voice - ripe, rich and burnished to a mahogany glow - - wraps itself around each of these familiar compositions (including two of her own, title track included) with worldly confidence and solicitous intelligence. The bad news is that the strings-brass-and-rhythm arrangements are so oppressive throughout that they all but smother her to death. >> While I completely agree with this reviewers accolades of Joni's voice I strongly disagree with his assessment of her orchestral arrangements. I find the entire album slightly understated with a perfect blend of vocals & instrumentation. The thing that bugs me about critics is that they feel a need to say something bad even when there is nothing bad to say. E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:21:45 -0800 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Reprise Response I, too, ordered my copy from Reprise and got this today: "Dear Customer, Thank you for ordering Joni Mitchell's Limited Edition of "Both Sides Now" from Time Warner Order Center. Unfortunately, due to manufacturing problems, this product is currently on backorder. Please accept our sincere apologies for the delay in shipment. We expect to have additional inventory this week and will be contacting you gain regarding the status of your order in the next several days. Thank you for your understanding. I you would like to cancel your order, please contact us as soon as possible at (800) 274-9700 or email us at TWOC@WEAC.com. Regards, Time Warner Order Center Customer Service" I cancelled with them and will go to a local retailer for it. I told my husband I haven't been doing my part in the local marketing which consists of going into stores and asking clerks with plenty of customers around if they have it. Loudly. Also, checking other Joni stock and rearranging all Joni CDs to make sure they are prominent enough (often put Hejira at front since it is so striking and strikingly beautiful.) I am *so* enjoying all the positive reviews for this! Yea for Joan! In a way, I find it sad many people/reviewers can't seem to give her past works the credit they are due because maybe it takes more than a few listens to appreciate it, but am still so glad to have her appreciated enthusiastically for something. (I, myself, upon first hearing "Court and Spark" exclaimed, "why is she sliding up to all those notes??" Of course, I later realized what an idiotic statement that was ...) A puzzling note: I put my in-laws (in their 60s) into a car with the tape while they were going to do an errand or two, thinking how could they not love this? When they came back, my mother-in-law said, "I didn't realize Joni recorded other peoples' songs." Period. End of comment. Frankly, I didn't have the heart to say, "well? what did you think? wasn't that brilliantly beautiful??" I guessed they didn't think so from their lack of comment on it knowing what a Joni freak I am. Once again, I'm so glad you're all here! Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:25:17 +0100 From: Marian Subject: Joni's picture frames On Tue , 15 Feb 2000 03:38:20 -0700, Kate wrote: >Sorry, I don't know who wrote this: >> I showed the pictures to a painter-friend of mine and the first thing she >> said was, "well, the frames alone explain it all". I think it might have been Debra Shea? >I'd call it Joni's personal taste in picture frames, and that's about it. I recently read the novel "Lust For Life", by Irving Stone, about the life of Vincent Van Gogh. I don't know if this is actually true, but at one point in a conversation with other artists when Van Gogh was living in Paris, Georges Seurat says: "We get through with a canvas. Then what do we do? We turn it over to some fool who puts it into a hideous gold frame and kills our every last effect. Now I propose that we should never let a picture out of our hands until we've put it into a frame and painted the frame so that it becomes an integral part of the picture." Can anybody elaborate on this? Is it true? Were there a lot of painters during Van Gogh's time that did this? Do you think Joni does this, too - out of agreement/sympathy with those painters? I am looking at the painting of Larry Klein sleeping with a cat on the poster for the London art exhibition in 1990. Surrounding the painting is a dark-blue painted wooden frame with gold lettering: "Once In A While On [sic] A Big Blue Moon There Comes A Night Like This 1987 Kauai". The TTT portrait is another example of a painted frame, but in this case it seems like the frame is actually part of the canvas, rather than a separate frame (can anyone confirm this?). Another example is the Idol/Idyll/Ideal painting which looks to me to be a picture of Kilauren. Marian Vienna npimh: Both Sides Now - Atlanta concert [thanks, Bob!!!] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:55:10 -0000 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: FW: BSN NY Times Review I was one of the people who supported Eric 'off-list' after his earlier trashing of the NY Times Review and once again I have to completely concur with his writing on the matter. I was furious when I read the review on Sunday when I came in to work reacting bitterly to the pointless and unintellegent comparisons being brought to bear in support (sic) of the NYT criticism. It was stupid, pointless and ultimately uninforming. I was further stunned that this critic was supposed to be a 'fan' of JM sponsoring her induction to the RNR Hall of Fame (....like Big F'g Deal, her stature has never been contingent upon 'peer' approval - perhaps it's just as well.). I'd have assumed if the man was such a fan of the work of JM he'd have somehow, I don't know, assimilated the fact that JM has aged and matured with all that that brings to a person and thereby gloried in the fact. Debra wrote: << Eric, I don't understand what you're so upset about and why you so hatefully dismiss this entire review and characterize the reviewer in such an ugly way. Throughout it, Holden makes many comments about the new-found emotional depth and power of Joni's voice. Joni's voice HAS deteriorated (so hate me for saying that if you choose to). She's really straining in some parts of BSN to get the sound out, WHAT?!?! - I Don't hear this...... Eric wrote It's funny, three people emailed me offlist expressing their complete agreement with my reaction to the NY Times Review. I am not a hateful, ugly, brainless person, Debra. What pissed me off so much was Holden's opening statement: "FEW contemporary voices have aged more shockingly than Joni Mitchell's.The craggy alto on "Both Sides Now"... is so changed from the sweetly yodeling folk soprano of her earliest albums that it hardly seems possible the two sounds could have come from the same body." This is the type of ageism typical of the American media. Joni is pushing 60 & for people to complain that she no longer sounds 20 is maddening! Having had more than a "cursory listening" of BSN I hear no "straining... to get the sound out. I don't "Compare that to her fluid vocal gymnastics when she was younger." & most importantly I don't consider Joni's older voice "shockingly craggy" or a "trade off." Our superficial pop culture equates aging with deterioration, especially when it comes to women. Joni's younger voice would sound ridiculous attempting the classics on BSN. IMO the new versions of A Case Of You & Both Sides Now are FAR superior to the originals in every way. This is the second time that the NYT has portrayed Joni as being over the hill (remember that extremely unflattering blow up they used in their review of TTT?). NYC is the bastion of youth-worship plaguing our world with anorexic chic. I pictured Joni crying reading that harsh review by a supposed fan. The NYT is one of the most influential newspapers on earth & Holden's ageist review will no doubt discourage many people from buying BSN. It is not hatred of insensitive reviewers, but rather my love of Joni's music, that motivates my occasional outbursts. One more thing: Why is it that listers rarely respond to my nice posts but jump down my throat every time I express a strong opinion? It really makes me want to unsubscribe sometimes. <........Hey, relax, all mine get ignored...:-) > Lovingly, E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #65 ******************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?