From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #41 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, January 30 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 041 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- TI (was cliqueish?) [dsk ] Re: Lyrics and Music (was Re: VG8 Sound) [FredNow@aol.com] Wag, wag, wag. [Richard Rice ] Re: cliqueish? which one next? ["Matthew Hall" ] WTRF first listen [Emily Kirk Gray ] JM Companion [Emily Kirk Gray ] Re: VG-8 Info [Michael Paz ] VG-8 Patches etc. [Michael Paz ] Re: VG-8 Info [Michael Paz ] Re: synth , VG-8, recording questions [Michael Paz ] Re: WTRF first listen [MGVal@aol.com] Re: first impressions [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: TI (was cliqueish?) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: WTRF first listen ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: WTRF first listen [Vince Lavieri ] The VG8 thread, little JC ["Chuck EIsenhardt" ] re: WTRF ["Jerome Gonzales" ] Re: broad brush [Siresorrow@aol.com] New sub seeks Joni VIDEOS [SoulQuest7@aol.com] Re: TI's sound [dsk ] WTRF first listen ["rick novosel" ] Re: TI's sound [catman ] Re: WTRF first listen [catman ] Re: The buck starts here [Maggie McNally ] Re: cliqueish? [luvart@snet.net] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 03:46:00 -0500 From: dsk Subject: TI (was cliqueish?) Matthew Hall wrote: > and... apart from TI, which album would you recommend next? Hi Matthew, I'd suggest you save TI for later and first get For the Roses or Night Ride Home (my current favorite) or, Joni's debut album, Song to a Seagull. Lots of people on the list love TI so I'm going to get verbally pummeled and told to listen, listen, listen to it again, but regardless of that, I have to say Joni's voice on TI is SOOOO depressing I can't stand listening to it. When I first heard it I didn't know about her separation from Larry and health problems or anything she was going through, and I remember thinking Oh Joni, what has happened? It sounded so different from NRH. It was like the "down, down, down" in Cold Blue Steel and Blue Fire, but she was never coming out of the hole again. OK, I'll admit I haven't listened to it many times, but I REALLY don't want to. (I think this is one of those 20-year projects.) Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:26:44 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Lyrics and Music (was Re: VG8 Sound) David Wright wrote: >>Also, I have never thought the major/minor shifts in the melody >>worked on Fiddle and the Drum. Well, we're firmly in "agree to disagree" territory here ... I think those major/minor shifts work like a mo'fo'. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:57:17 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: Wag, wag, wag. Wooooahhhh. Usually weekends are quiet around this list, but man, tongues have certainly been wagging the last few days!!! Very interesting threads going on here. Must be the pre BSN euphori a kicking into gear, I guess. In regards to Joni's melodies, complaints being waged here are complaints she has heard for YEARS. It's surprising to hear them from so many in the jmdl flock. It's the sort of thing I would expect from the general public. I would have thought we would all be used it by now. Part of what makes Joni's melodies less 'melodic' is that she has gone through some major transitions in the way she writes a song and in the harmonies she hears. While her 'weird' chords coughed up some unusal chordal and melodic movements in the early years, the sounds of the times leaned heavily to a traditional form of harmony: simpler colors, simpler movements and brighter in key. Her harmony has always made her an odd bird, but the melodic line did not drift too far afield in those days, floating over the notes in that 'folksy' 'country' sing song sort of way, popular to the times. The melodic line staying above the melodic movement without much counter movement at all. Some of it was even borrowed from the Mama Cass and Crosby crowd. The fact that Joan brought into this mix, new chords, new movements, and peculiar arrangements was part of her charm. You knew the moment you heard her that you were listening to a unique, creative and totally individual voice. One of the things I admire about her, that shows her true genius as an artist, is her ability to see possibilities where no one else does. The fact that she went into open tunings to begin with was she heard chords in her head that simply could not be produced in standard tuning. Or at least not without difficulty. I would love to have sat with her back then and listen to her hum a melodic line she knew was there, but couldn't yet find on the guitar. Her harmonic sense was always 'out there.' As Joni began to crave more and more contrapunctal movent in her music, her vocal line and the harmonies under them began to move in different directions. That alone, for most of the buying public is too much musical depth to handle. Secondly, she began to 'flatten' the melodic line to serve the poetry. One of her great gifts as a song writer is her ability to make the melody sound so natural to the words. So well in fact, the songs practically feel spoken rather than sung. There is rarely a moment were the voicing in her songs feels false or forced. This is one of the highest marks of a song writer, I feel. And it's a talent she has in spades. As she has mentioned, she changed the way she wrote songs, writing them around a standard melody no one has heard (save her), so the inflections can be made more natural by raising or lowering a note. In this way you would need to write out extra lead sheets for her songs, since the melody does not repeat itself from verse to verse. When she does this, she flattens out the melodic line to a degree. Certainly Hejira is the most radiant and successful use of this technique. The great irony is most people see this as a loss of melody, where Joni perceives it as offering more! Today, I think much of what we consider 'melodic' exists more in her arrangements than in the melody itself. Personally, I prefer to hear the complexity of the contrapunctnal movement between the musicians married with a 'flatter' evolving lyric line, than to hear the earlier work where the harmonies sing song under the melodic flow of the vocals. I would put money that Joni feels the same way. I do concede a 'sameness' to the sound track of TTT. But some of this is due to the fact that the tunings are pretty damn similar from song to song. Some of it is because Joni herself plays so many of the parts. (Bass, guitar, piano, etc.) Can't blame that on the VG8. And yet every song sparkles with just the perfect mix of the artists performing and the exquisite layering of tones by Joni. My fave musical moment is the layering of piano synthesizer hitting a sustained crystal high just before the lines, "Oh, love takes so much courage, Love takes so much shit." Every hair on my neck stands on end when that bit of magic washes over the song. Praise heaven, the stars, and the folks at Roland. If not for them, tongues would not be wagging about any of this. Peace. John. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:34:47 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: cliqueish? which one next? Thanks for your suggestions everyone. There was an overwhelming response for 'FTR' which I was a little surprised by. The title track is one of my favourites off the 'misses' collection, so I reckon that I will get that one next. 'Night Ride Home' was another popular one, which I've always been pretty enthusiastic about because I love 'come in from the cold' and 'passion play' so much. So I might get that one after FTR. I'm not really well up on her 80s stuff at the moment; 'Shadows and Light' and 'Wild Things Run Fast' is a complete blind spot. I have to say, at the moment 'Mingus' intrigues me the least, but I am really interested in DJRD just from what I've heard you all say about it. thanks again Matthew and if you're interested, these are the people I listen to most: Tori Amos, Bjork, PJ Harvey, Kate Bush, Madonna, John Lennon, Sinead O'Connor, Alanis Morissette, Patti Smith, Nirvana, REM, Beth Orton, Sheryl Crow, Hole, Ani Difranco, Morcheeba, Macy Gray, and Joni of course. Seeya ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:30:15 +0100 From: Roman Subject: What have we all got in common? (JC at last!) I know many of you are hardened Joni fans who have all her albums. I however have only three, and there's probably others of us who also don't have her entire catalogue. Some people may have half a dozen titles that are completely different from someone else's half a dozen titles. But some album collections might intersect (y'know, like Venn diagrams of sets) I thought it might be interesting to see (by means of some kind of survey) if there is any one particular Joni album that ALL or nearly all of us happen to actually possess. The Venn diagram of all the sets of people's Joni collections showing an intersection at just one album. This might then be regarded as the definitive Joni album in some sense? Mathematically speaking, would this turn out to be Joni's biggest selling album, (as published by Billboard charts or somesuch), or might our list-survey amongst JMDLers come up with a completely different result, if you see what I mean? Maybe you've already done such a survey though, I and I missed it. If so, forget the idea. tube ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:57:45 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: WTRF first listen hi gang i'm listening to "Wild Things Run Fast" for the first time! this and DED are the only two joni's i don't own...although i suppose it's down to one, now -- oh, wait, i don't own STAS yet either. anyway, i know you are all holding your breath(s) waiting for me "first listen" first thoughts. so here goes: 1. isn't this album going to be a "guilty pleasure" joni for me?...i've been nervous about filling in my blanks in the JM archive, which has meant CMIARS -- WTRF and DED. i had the early stuff and the later stuff (NRH,TI and TTT). anyway, by "guilty pleasure" i guess i mean a record that i can play to hear other, different joni music -- but nothing that i really crave or love or find is complex incredible music. also, NOT an album i'd point out to my non-joni-obsessed friends. 2. "chinese cafe" is worth the price of the whole album, especially the "unchained melody" which, if you think about it, is a melody even more unchained by joni's gorgeous melancholy rendering of it. 3. why are the lyrics so (oh god i'm nervous to say this) bad? there are more empty references to "love" on this record than i can count -- staying away from easy "love" lyrics has always been what i cherished about our never-easy JM...yikes! 4. two words: lionel richie? 5. am i the only one reading some dirty double entendres into the lyrics for "wild things"? :) probably. 6. a very postmodern (and purposely ugly?) painting for the cover -- the "wild things" are only running fast and free on the TV screen, not in "real life." 7. what does "personal direction: elliot roberts" mean? (in the liner notes). personally, my direction would have been: joni, try writing another draft! OK, OK, i'm waiting for all the "give it time" posts that i expect will be the response -- or feel free to ignore this random WTRF email. actually, i can't quite remember what the general take is (NOT that THIS group could have a coherent general take :) that's what i love about you guys :)) on WTRF. i guess so far i think that this record is part and parcel of joni's being (in my mind) an artist who experiments, takes risks (even in terms of venturing into the banal) and bottom line just doesn't really care what i think -- i mean, i'd like to think she cares what i think -- but i can't tell you how much i love her "don't like it? screw you" attitude. i NEED that in the artists i respect...much more than i need WTRF... bottom line: ain't it cool that joni cares so little about "being cool" and is so willing to be UNCOOL in this album, that has as one of its anthems an admonition to "be cool"... worried that my first "oh yuck, joni" response will oust me from the jmdl cool pool -- not that i was ever in it -- :) - -- emily NP: "love" from WTRF (loving the sound of her voice, but oh lord if i wanted lyrics like these--despite their being copped from the bible or wordsworth or lewis carroll--i'd turn on the girly guile music!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:06:35 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: JM Companion i just picked this up yesterday and i'm so excited to read through it! stacey, congratulations. i'm sorry about the misprint of the spelling of your name -- as someone who has logged countless hours doing freelance copyediting...i feel your pain! (and would definitely have caught the misspelling...:)) a final "fessing-up" thought: perry meisel (author of the review that shreds "hejira") is a friend and colleague of mine...he is a brilliant and kooky and risk-taking academic who loves music and who has agreed to disagree with me about joni mitchell! it's hard for me to read what he thinks about "hejira" but also easy for me to compartmentalize it because i know it's all coming from a specific (academic jargon-type) cultural theory he has... and hey, we're all allowed to be terribly wrong about things, right? ha ha. anyway, i find a lot of value in stacey's inclusion of pieces like this, because i love that joni provokes strong responses to either side of the extreme... or maybe i'm just saying that because i'm still feeling nervous about my not-so-hot-on-WTRF post earlier today...! - -- emily, spending a long lazy sunday morning writing lots of stuff to the JMDL and prepared to quit now so you folks can catch a break from my ramblings and also planning to go see "magnolia" exactly when the rest of the US is watching the dumb old superbowl! NP: the silence that comes after WTRF and before whatever i pick to play next... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:18:37 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: VG-8 Info john- Thanks to you for your beautiful unsolicited comments. It is so nice to know that "doggone it people like me" (sorry to Stuart Smalley). It is also so neat that I am being heard in Australia, a land where my number 1 son I dream of spending a bit of time. If my JoniFest2000 is a success here in New Orleans, I do believe I will have to take it on the road and after stopping by in San Fran to do a performance there and pick up my stranded heart, it will be off to the land down under. (now thats a helluva run on sentence). Peace Michael john low wrote: > > Bob M. wrote about Michael Paz's performances at the Jonifest: "Those > of you who have heard it know what I'm talking about..." > > Bob sent me a CD with a selection of the performances from Ashara's > and I have been listening to it over Christmas and the New Year. > Michael is represented on this 'sampler' with a number of songs and I > heartily endorse what Bob has said. The warm intimacy of his voice is > deeply moving. His versions of "Love Puts On A New Face", "Song For > Sharon" and "Hejira" are just marvellous. And, Michael, I don't want > any payment for saying this! :-) > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:35:36 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: VG-8 Patches etc. > > Pat wrote: > > >one question i have. when you play through alternate tuning patches, are > the multiple sound options >limited? in other words, are there more sound > features available in standard tuning patches? if the >answere is no, then > i would think Joni likes her ttt sound, and to a degree, much of the ti > sound as >well. i think it sounds sort of like a pipe organ. i like it, > but what i think i missed the most on ttt was > > the mixture of sounds, Dear Pat- The sound options are programmable on every patch. You can have 64 "user patches" and 64 "preset" patches and 64 "memory card" patches on an optional ram card. The user patches internally is where you can store your own creations. The preset patches can be altered, but then to store or save them you have to do that in a "user" or "memory card" location. There are quite a few really pretty synth type sounds in the presets. Kakki wrote: > This ties in with something I've been ruminating about that maybe Michael > Paz can answer. How many of the "patches" were available to Joni when she > first started using the VG-8? It sounds like currently there are endless > sounds available, but perhaps it was limited in the beginning. I wonder > what TTT would have sounded like if Joni had used a greater variety of > "patches" in the songs. Maybe it would not have all "sounded so much > alike." It sounds like she is basically using the same patch throughout, > except for in Harlem in Havana and Lead Balloon - those songs are the two > that stand out as "different" to me in the album. Kakki, according to Gary she would have had as many as I posted above, but remember she just got this thing and was SO excited about all that it could do, and she did it all with Gary the night before the show in her hotel room. As you know Joan is very particular about the sound of her music and is always very concerned about the different ranges of sound, like the bass on the low end, etc. As she was playing by herself at Jazz Fest, she tried to make everything bigger (and the VG-8 has that capability), but the front of house engineer had no clue of how to deal with that wall of sound coming out of 2 outputs on the VG. She was suppose to have the FOH engineer from Little Feats band, but he got mugged in the quarter and missed the gig. Had he been there, I think the over all sound of that performance would have been ALOT better. I think the major similarity to the sounds on TTT (that most of you are hearing) are the effects. And mainly the chorus effect. For a period Pat Metheny used this effect on everything and it sounded like it. Sting's guitar player Dominic Milano also overuses this effect. Hell I love it myownself, but it does get old. I would love the chance to work with Joni on a new album of her original stuff and be able to program her VG-8 and engineer the recording. I would also beg her to sit down at the piano again (so what that it's painted green). > > In another case of synchro, not ten minutes ago I was running down some Joni > songs in my head and I mentally "dialed in" Harlem but the lyrics to Cotton > Avenue started playing, I swear to you!! This is to freaky! Would you mind performing this for us at the concert May 28th? Love Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:38:24 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: VG-8 Info catman wrote: > > > P.S. You know you you might try ringing up a music stor over there in > > jolly old England and ask them if they have a Roland VG-8 in stock and > > go over and see one in person and perhaps take it on a test drive. > > and look a fool!!! I wouldn't have clue how to test drive it! Can't play > anything except with myself. Catman- This could be an interesting approach to playing the VG-8. I am sure there are some guitar players on the list from England. It could be a field trip and science experiment. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:58:29 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: synth , VG-8, recording questions CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: > > Hey Michael and other guitarists - Clark- Phew that's alot of questions! Lets see how I can do here. > So, what should a fledgling guitarist buy? > > What's a good, reasonably priced electric guitar? Are some of them more > suited to using with a VG-8 or a synthesizer? 1) A great guitarist like yourself can pick up a Fender Mexican Strat on the low end (under 300) a Roland Ready Fender Mexican Strat (around 450-this has the pick up {hence the Roland Ready title} already built into the thing) Then you can get a VG-8 at about $1,200. I heard Jonatha Brooke was selling one of hers used. When I come out there why don't you come with me to the NAMM show and we can look for gear for you? > What's a good, reasonably priced portable amp? 2) I like the little 30 watt Vox amps about $150. But you could also use headphones on the VG or plug into your stereo like at Kakki's that time. > And regardless of whether the VG-8 is a synth or a modeler, does it have the > capacities of a synthesizer? Do you have to buy both? Does anyone know what > synth Pat Metheny uses to get all those incredible sounds? 3) It DOES have some synth type sounds as well like on Harlem in Havana, Lead Balloon, etc. You DO NOT "HAVE" to buy both, but remember whoever has the most toys when we die WINS. Pat Metheny has used a Roland synth since they started making them. He used the GR-300 I think the longest. After he made so much money he didn't know what to do with it, he got the full blown Synclavier. I read many reviews about this sound during this time, when people said he spent a half a million dollars on a device to get his guitar to sound like a five dollar harmonica. The Synclavier was one of the first hard disk recorders as well. > What can anyone tell us about how Joni records her songs? Recording my own > songs lately, they are being recorded in fragments which are pieced back > together. As an example, the intro is recorded first, followed by the first > 8 bars of the verse. If the next bars of the Chorus are the same, it's just > copied by the computer until you get to the bridge. In her oldest albums, > does anyone know if Joni ever "spliced" together the same guitar parts? One > disadvantage of this method is that you can't throw in a half a bar, or take > meaningful pauses unless they are accurately counted out, much less go for > some meter defying syncopations. I would say Joni probably never recorded > this way unless it was on DED under the watchful eye of Thomas Dolby. Joni has always been at the forefront of recording technology. I am sure she experimented with what was available since the old days. I assume you are using some computer program to do your recording with your producer. You can just a bar or half a bar in if you want. Computer recording is amazing. I have a program that will allow me to throw on a loop (sample) on a recording that I already have done and time stretch it or what ever and sync it to my already recorded tracks. Alot of people like Daniel Lanois, Pierre Marchand, tons of the hip hop producers, etc all use loops to begin their recordings and add another element or colour to their ideas. Splicing bits together can be equally as creative and fun, just don't go so wild in the studio that you will not be able to duplicate your stuff on the road. Remember you could have a big gig in New Orleans in May! Peace Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:11:15 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: WTRF first listen Emily said: << 3. why are the lyrics so (oh god i'm nervous to say this) bad? there are more empty references to "love" on this record than i can count -- staying away from easy "love" lyrics has always been what i cherished about our never-easy JM...yikes!>> Not sure that *bad* is the best choice of an adjective, Emily...My feel for this record has always been that after the Mingus and Shadows & Light complexities, she sought out (for commercial reasons and to re-ground herself) a "return-to-basics" pop & rock record. She covers Unchained Melody and You're so Square, and tosses in her own songs that are simple & easier to digest than say, God Must be a Boogie Man or A Wolf that Lives in Lindsay. <<4. two words: lionel richie?>> Like I said, she was making an effort to return to the commercial markets - since Lionel was selling about a million copies of "Can't Slow Down" every day, he was a logical choice, although since Joni usually flips the bird to commerce, it IS a little tough to take (You Dream Flat Tires btw is one of my faves off of the record, I love the imagery of the title alone). And of course the irony is that while the once platinum Ritchie is now musically extinct, Joni is still going strong! << 5. am i the only one reading some dirty double entendres into the lyrics for "wild things"? :) probably.>> Nope..."He came, she smiled, she thought she had him tamed but he was just as wild"...what else could it mean but using sexuality to manipulate another? This of course means that maybe some of the words are trickier than you give them credit for being....;~) << 7. what does "personal direction: elliot roberts" mean? (in the liner notes). personally, my direction would have been: joni, try writing another draft!>> He was her manager, I assumed it means that and nothing more... << bottom line: ain't it cool that joni cares so little about "being cool" and is so willing to be UNCOOL in this album, that has as one of its anthems an admonition to "be cool"...>> Sounds like you're talking yourself into appreciating it Emily. And, like you say, it WAS a risk in context of her prior output, trading off the state-of-the-art jazz musicians she was playing with to the band she uses here... << worried that my first "oh yuck, joni" response will oust me from the jmdl cool pool -- not that i was ever in it -- :) >> Not that such a pool exists, or that I'm a part of it, but I think you're "in the swim" of things as opposed to "skating on thin ice"! :~) Thanks for your post; WTRF is one of faves and doesn't get the attention it deserves in the pantheon I think. Bob NP: Tuck & Patti, "Adventures In Paradise" Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:20:44 -0600 From: "Mark T. Domyancich" Subject: Re: AGREE W/ KAKKI At 5:20 PM -0600 1/29/00, dave fairall / beth miller wrote: >For those who >have heard DJRD for the first time in recent years, try going back and >listening to the popular music of the late 70s and then play DJRD and >you >may get some idea of just how out there it was at the time. This is interesting. I listened to DJRD for the first time in the spring of 98. It was recommded to me by someone that it is sort of the sequel to Hejira. I put it on and was really striked by how it wasn't the electric sound. The album does have a very seventies feel to it. The drums on Cotton Avenue, that wah-wah sound on DJRD, etc. Whatever way you look at it, Joni has always stayed true to her music. NP-the roof getting shoveled, Phish-Maze Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:24:21 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: WTRF first listen In a message dated 1/30/00 8:00:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, ekg200@is5.nyu.edu writes: << NP: "love" from WTRF (loving the sound of her voice, but oh lord if i wanted lyrics like these--despite their being copped from the bible or wordsworth or lewis carroll--i'd turn on the girly guile music!) >> There is a line in the biblical and Joni version of this song that always hits me very hard: "and when I became a woman, I put away childish things. And began to see, through a glass darkly." I think that so neatly sums up the very common problem of intimacy that so many people have. Think about it, as a kid, if you feel good about something, you usually jumped in and continued with the feeling good stuff. You wanted to be with your buddy and that was that. As adults, people often worry about exposing their own private cores, worry about how to share, what to share, what the sharing means, keeping score, getting hurt and on and on and on. They've lost that childish clarity. I can see where it could be schmaltzy, but if you really think about the lyrics in terms of how it relates to intimacy, it's really quite profound. MG np: Linda Ronstadt: Get Closer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:19:13 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: first impressions In a message dated 1/30/2000 12:58:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, wrodgers@blast.net writes: << I have found that over the years, other albums of Joni's have done sort of the same thing... different paths, different strings and ended in different places, but wove their way into me just the same. I think alot of it has to do with finding the real essence of what emotion joni was trying to express, and feel it the way she did. For me, it just takes time. Walter >> I feel the same way about some of her music. Sopme of it takes a few listens to to really *get it* whereas others just hit you straight on and just one listen is all it takes. I know DED was a big let down for me. I thought *what the HELL is she doing?* Now I have a greater appreciation of it. Now TI was an automatic mind blower. With the first note I said...she is back better then ever. Now keep in mind these are just my opinions..others may vary... ;o) Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:26:49 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: TI (was cliqueish?) In a message dated 1/30/2000 3:43:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << Lots of people on the list love TI so I'm going to get verbally pummeled and told to listen, listen, listen to it again, but regardless of that, I have to say Joni's voice on TI is SOOOO depressing I can't stand listening to it. >> Not to sound MEAN but I think Joni writes her best (like alot of muscians do) when she is depressed or sad. That CD took me from the first note on Sunny Sunday to the last boom on Sire of Sorrow. I tend to be a malencholy type of person but I do like music that is happy and upbeat (ei Francis Dunnery). He is a GREAT writer and I love his music. I could dance all day to his stuff. Anyway getting back to Joan, maybe I like that cd alot for it was one of the first cd's with the correct tunings in the songbook so I learned to paly alot of the them and got alot more connected to the songs. Either way it is in my top 5 and will probably always be. Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:42:32 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: WTRF first listen > Not sure that *bad* is the best choice of an adjective, Emily...My feel for > this record has always been that after the Mingus and Shadows & Light > complexities, she sought out (for commercial reasons and to re-ground > herself) a "return-to-basics" pop & rock record. > > Sounds like you're talking yourself into appreciating it Emily. And, like you > say, it WAS a risk in context of her prior output, trading off the > state-of-the-art jazz musicians she was playing with to the band she uses > here... I agree with some of what you're saying here, Bob, but I still don't see WTRF entirely as a 'return to basics' pop record, calculated to woo back a straying audience. I can still hear the jazz influence all over this record. 'Ladies Man', 'Moon at the Window' & 'Be Cool' in particular. She was already dabbling in covers of old rock & roll/pop songs in the 'Shadows & Light' sets with the inclusion of 'Why Do Fools Fall in Love'. WTRF also has the beginnings of the electronic edge that she would dive fully into on her next record 'Dog Eat Dog'. My feeling is that you can always hear some small element of everything Joni has done before in each new record. She may go in new directions but she always builds on what she already knows & incorporates that knowledge into her latest project. I think WTRF is a transition between the jazz influenced phase that peaked at 'Mingus' and the electronic sound of DED & CMIARS. It's not my favorite but I don't think it's 'girlie guile' full of goofy love anthems either. Lyrically, she's starting to pare down & be a bit looser, especially compared with the verbosity of Hejira & DRJD. But I don't think there is anything banal in these songs. As for Lionel Ritchie, well, Joni does occasionally like to duet, usually with a male voice and Ritchie was one of the flavors of the month at that time. And as far as being another voice or 'instrument' to use in the ensemble, he wasn't bad. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:09:20 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: WTRF first listen My complete and total first reaction to WTRF when I first heard it was: "She sure was in love with someone when she recorded this!" (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:03:50 -0500 From: "Chuck EIsenhardt" Subject: The VG8 thread, little JC I love Michael's music the most. And his sexual prowess (duet's, trios, small ensembles, and once, an entire community orchestra)) is of course undeniable. I'm a little out to jury as to whether to call the VG8 a guitar synth or not. The VG8 discussion list lapses in and out of calling it a synth. Roland does insist on marketing it as a 'guitar system' and a 'modeler'. This doesn't change the fact that the underlying technology looks to me like a guitar synthesizer, albeit one that's purpose-built to model a wide variety of pickups, guitars, and amplifier combinations thru a combination of technologies, probably to include some waveform sampling and different digital synthesis techniques along with digital effects. I take Michael's point that it's a different animal than the Roland guitar synth's of yore. By the same token, most of the digital keyboards you see today, and for some time now, also can't be accurately called synthesizers. A few retro instruments have hit the market, but most of what you see like the Korg and Roland 'synth's' utilize a whole combination of sound modeling techniques - outright sampling, wave form sampling, FM synthesis and all kinds of proprietary synthesis technologies, as well as digital sequencing, which is actually multitrack recording. It might be another conceit, but some manufacturer are calling these thing's 'workstations'. For a time I played bass in a trio behind Roger Powell (later of Utopia) and he was playing SYNTEHSIZER's...an ARP 2600 with all the patchcords, an ARP Odyssey (the first polyphonic synth - two notes at a time!) as well as Rhodes. That was wild! We played Pork-pie Hat! The all-important scale and tuning features: If these last follow the model of keyboard 'systems' that I'm familiar with, then the patch information and the scaling/tuning are totally independent. In other words, choosing to play in a different scale does not limit other program options to layer patches, add effects, and so on. Metheny btw used the earlier Roland guitar synths and now also uses the VG8. (For the longest time I thought this was just 'bad' keyboard playing!) My .02 on Joni's using it: it's striking and unmistakable...it takes about two notes of any song on TTT coming over the radio to identify it. Nobody else sounds like this! But tricked up as it is, it sounds...um...like it's under glass or something. Not flat exactly, but so polished and smooth. Maybe devoid of the harshness that may come from a the edge of a pick hitting on a wound string...the sounds are cooked up in a laboratory and they do not allow for the subtleties and dynamism that can be conjured from an acoustic instrument. Yet? The Kurzweil 2000 series keyboards were the best-sounding acoustic grand sim I ever heard, yet each note was a discreet done-deal. The intermodulation, or the effect of strings in a box vibrating, being effected by the other strings in that box also vibrating, or even unstruck yet adding a simpathetic overtone, was missing. On problem with it (or difference) is that it's never slightly out-of-tune. To me, some of the charm in the sound of layered acoustic instruments lies in the slight imperfections among the tunings. Or the individual mark of a particular person's ear applied to the tuning. Or drift. Thinking 'Ladies of the Canyon', for example... Without looking, who can name the eight vegetables in V-8 juice? ChuckE ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:22:06 PST From: "Jerome Gonzales" Subject: re: WTRF Emily... Same feelings are held here. 'Chinese Cafe' is worth the price of admission. It's a shame it didn't close the set so that I'd have been more compelled to listen to it all the way through more often. Of course, the musicality of the album and Joni's singing do draw me in. And, as I've said about the album before, Joni's low points are higher than most artists' peaks. Of course, this album hs it's defenders. They've no doubt got great reasons for loving it. I personally don't and for all of the same reasons as you. I personally think DED and CMIAR were lyrical "rebounds"-even if they weren't completely succesful experiments (don't get me wrong-CMIAR is among my Joni top 5). Oh, and regarding this: >>4. two words: lionel richie? I've been wondering about this. Could someone fill in on whether or not this was after he left The Commodores. I'll let it slide if it was. (Also, the word Commodore has a Billie Holiday connection and we know how Joni loves Billie....) >>6. a very postmodern (and purposely ugly?) painting for >>the cover -- the "wild things" are only running fast and >>free on the TV screen, not in "real life." Nver looked at the cover in this perspective. Interesting that you'd point that out-the fictional is where wild things run fast. Hmmm.... OK, enough naive 22 year old heresy! Later, Jerome ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:35:05 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush In a message dated 1/29/00 6:15:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, FredNow@aol.com writes: << I think Siresorrow was referencing my quote in the JMDL Gallery: "It's not the shit, it's the fan," as in, "when the shit hits the fan." In other words, shit, in and of itself, is not that big a deal, everyone has some, it's when it hits the fan that it really becomes a problem. And the reason he referenced it is that a rant against certain composers was mistakenly attributed to me ... through a series of quoted and re-quoted quotes, the shit hit the fan and got really messy. >> thats exactly how my mind operated through that thread. not sure if that is good or bad, but it is the way it is. pat ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:12:30 EST From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: New sub seeks Joni VIDEOS If anyone knows of any good quality compilations of early Joni TV performances, pleases email me off-list with info. I've seen a couple of clip excerpts which has really wetted my appetite! My email is SoulQuest7@aol.com. I consider "Blue" to be the peak of the singer-songwriter genre. I'm not a "starry-eyed fanatic" as it said in the introduction to the list, but only because I reserve that for Jon Anderson of YES!! Here's my AOL profile which will tell more than you will ever want to know about me, but hey, it gets you lots of instant messages when you fill it to the brim with keywords!! === Nick Member Name: Nick Kokoshis. Music: Shakti, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jon Anderson & YES, Kula Shaker, Annie Haslam & Renaissance, psychedelia, Joni Mitchell Location: Rockville, MD (by D.C.) Also love: INDIA, San Francisco, Provincetown MA, Madison WI. Influences: Mystics, Gandhi, Chaitanya, Matthew Fox, Bayard Rustin, Jay B. McDaniel, Andrew Harvey, Ma Jaya Sati Bhagavati, hippy hippies, Greenpeace, human rights org Birthdate: 2-12-57 Sex: Male Marital Status: Hubby: Rev. Ken South (UCC) Hobbies: Ahimsa & nonviolent religions; New Age; Jainism; gay & lesbian rights; vegetarian; Music: Beatles, Incredible String Band, Donovan, Meg Christian, Laura Nyro, Dougie MacLean, Phranc, Daevid Allen & Gong, Moody Blues, Phil Ochs, Romanovsky and Phillips Computers: Degree: B.A. in World Religions, American University, D.C. Path: Yoga of Love, Chanting, Meditation, liberal & green politics Occupation: Interests: engaged Buddhism, liberal Christianity & Judaism; Job: Professional student; Health Food business Personal Quote: If I'm not at home, accepting what I cannot change, I'm probably out, changing what I cannot accept. -Ashleigh Brilliant. The highest ideals of morality and ethics go hand in hand with the highest metaphysical and scientific conceptions. -Vivekananda ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:19:24 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: TI's sound CaTGirl627@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/30/2000 3:43:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, > dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: > << > ...I have to > say Joni's voice on TI is SOOOO depressing I can't stand listening to it. >> > > Not to sound MEAN but I think Joni writes her best (like alot of muscians do) > when she is depressed or sad. That CD took me from the first note on Sunny > Sunday to the last boom on Sire of Sorrow. > ....Anyway getting back to Joan, maybe I like that cd alot for it was one of > the > first cd's with the correct tunings in the songbook so I learned to paly alot > of the them and got alot more connected to the songs. Either way it is in > my top 5 and will probably always be. Hi Catgirl, I can appreciate how much you and many others on the list love TI, which is why I don't want to completely dismiss it. It's not the songs themselves (I really like listening to the Magdalene Laundries on the Tears of Stone album) and I can certainly relate to melancholy and introspection. But on TI Joni herself sounds so depressed, it's downright painful to listen to. But no one else has ever mentioned this. Makes me wonder if my CD player is going at a slightly slower speed (it is 10 years old, maybe it's time for a new one? or at least needs the timing checked?). But then I play other things and they sound OK. And Joni's lower voice on TTT sounds great to me, so I don't think it's just the lower voice that disturbs me. Does anyone else think Joni sounds extremely depressed on TI or am I completely off the wall here? Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:34:58 -0800 From: "rick novosel" Subject: WTRF first listen Hey Emily, (the Rev) Vince hit it on the head: > My complete and total first reaction to WTRF when I first heard it was: > "She sure was in love with someone when she recorded this!" Exactly! I don't know about the CD cover but the vinyl version has a Joni painting of her being cuddly with Larry Klein. Mark chimes in: >I don't think it's 'girlie guile' full of goofy love anthems either. Right again. Emily, listen to the album again and try to see it as a picture of a woman entering a new and exhilarating relationship, one that, this time, feels like a real "grown-up" love, a "solid love". "Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody" is the realization that we all get, that time has indeed passed, everything changes, but maybe one thing is constant, and that's the beauty and glory of love. "WTRF" is the start of the relationship, the skittish wild animal being lulled into "eating out of her hand". The rest of the album charts the give and take of carving out a relationship until the glorious shout of "Yes I do-I love you": Hey, I am in love and I like it, the world is perfect, I love you. Then comes "Love", a more thoughful take on the meaning of love after the exuberance of "Underneath the Streetlight". Yes, I am older now and I realize that there are things you have to do to keep love and things I will never understand about love but it's worth everything it takes to keep it. Needless to say WTRF is one of my faves. As I've said before, I relate to music more on a feeling level than a musically-analytical level and WTRF strikes a deep emotional chord inside me. I hope this very unusual attempt on my part to analyze a Joni recording will inspire you to listen again with new ears. All good things Rick PS I love the cover ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:37:44 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: TI's sound > > > Does anyone else think Joni sounds extremely depressed on TI or am I completely > off the wall here? You are not off the wall, or maybe you are since I am in agreement with you-sort of. I love TI yes she does sound royally pissed off but in a very angry way, a simmering rage type of way. Although I can understand why someone would think she sounds depressed, she sounds much more angry than anhything else to me. She is really espression her rage and this is not a hppy thing but I don't think it is depressed as depression is not associated with venting one's rage, as Joni is doing here. > > > Debra Shea - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:39:37 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: WTRF first listen > > My complete and total first reaction to WTRF when I first heard it was: > > "She sure was in love with someone when she recorded this!" It sticks out a mile. Reminds of first listening to Spy back in 79(Carly) and knew right a way that Carly and James had had it. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:37:24 -0500 From: Maggie McNally Subject: Re: The buck starts here Michael, Bob and all, I have to jump in with an "I second that emotion" here. Unfortunately, I missed nearly all of Paz's set at Jonifest due to duty calling, but I have had the recent good fortune to be in possession of the Jonifest box set and I LOVE listening to Michael's voice and guitar work. There are others (happily, too numerous to mention) who keep me working throughout the day with their versions of Joni's music from that wonderful weekend too. So, first, a great big thanks to Bob for getting the cds to me. Second, thank you to all the musicians who played their hearts out in Topsfield. Makes me think I have to find my way to New Orleans. Maggie At 11:21 PM 1/28/00 -0600, Michael Paz wrote: >SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 1/28/00 10:31:23 PM US Central Standard Time, >> michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: >> >> << my programming >> aims at getting close to the sound of her guitar on the original >> recording. >> >> >> Michael's work on the VG8 was SO wonderful, he inspired me to perform at >> Jonifest 2000 in New Orleans. His set at Ashara's was INCREDIBLE!! I was >> bawling like a baby and couldn't even look at another JMDL'er, I was so >> moved. Those of you who have heard it know what I'm talking about...Joni >> herself says that she loves to hear a male voice sing her songs, and Paz is >> one of the best!! >> >> Bob >> >> Bob > >Bob I can't find your snail mail address where I can send you your check >for shameless promotion of another lister. Thanks for the kind comments. >I have not been playing much lately, but plan to start rehearsing my set >and figuring out what I am going to play this year. I have a couple of >duets and threesomes planned. > >Michael > > Maggie McNally ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:42:44 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: cliqueish? Hello Matthew! I recommend 'For The Roses' as your next Joni purchase. That was the album that made me fall in love with Joni's music. Matthew ... if you ever get the chance try to meet up with JMDLer's in your area. It's such a unique experience to speak with folks who share the same intensity for Joni's music. Maybe we can lure you to the US for one of Ashara's festivals! Heather At 01:46 AM 1/30/00 -0000, Matthew Hall wrote: >Hello everybody, >Thanks for all of your replies, I didn't mean to come across aggressive with >my post, I just wanted to provoke some sort of response, which I suppose it >did; everyone has been really nice. Of course I didn't expect everyone to >fall at my feet when I first introduced myself, but I realise now that this >is a very busy list, so obviously you can't respond to everything. > >Anyway, now I've got your attention...lol > >This is my intoduction. >I am 18 years old, I live in the UK, not that far from Liverpool. I will be >going to study at Liverpool University this September. >As for Joni, I first got into her music last summer when I bought 'Blue'. >I'd heard about her mostly through Tori Amos (she's my number one I have to >say), who's cover of 'A Case Of You' I completely loved - it's still one of >my favourite Joni songs. The Joni albums I own are: >Blue >Court and Spark >Hejira >Hits >Misses >Taming The Tiger > >The hits and misses collections are fantastic as an introduction to Joni's >work. >I normally think buying a 'hits' collection is a bit of a cop out as opposed >to buying a proper album, but it really did amaze me. I actually prefer >'misses' 'cause that seems to have more of her '90s work on it. > >I've read what you've all said about TTT and I really like it. When I first >got it (just a couple of weeks ago) it didn't move me whatsoever - I liked >it really only because it was Joni, but that was also the reason why I gave >it more time. I don't know much about the VG8 at all, but I think the album >is really warm and it suits her voice now. The album's still pretty intense >but of course it's different from before; after 30 years there's no point >taking steps back. >It also has a couple of my fave Joni tracks on it: 'Harlem In Havana' and >'The Crazy Cries Of Love' > >I have to say I do prefer her 'Blue' and 'Court and Spark', probably because >I identify with them a bit more, but I'm also looking forward to getting >'Turbulent Indigo' next. Even though, in the store near me, it's more >expensive than all of the others. > >That's all I have to say for now, >thanks for reading if you made it this far. > >Oh and when is 'Both Sides Now' out in the UK? > >Matthew > >and... apart from TI, which album would you recommend next? > > ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #41 ******************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?