From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #39 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, January 29 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 039 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- $35 BSN ["Alan Lorimer" ] synth , VG-8, recording questions [CarltonCT@aol.com] Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) ["Kakki" ] Re: VG8 Sound [FredNow@aol.com] Re: VG-8 Info [catman ] Re: broad brush [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: VG8 Sound [Deb Messling ] The Lone Ranger [Roman ] Soda jerks [Roman ] recreation [Roman ] Oscar Wilde [Roman ] "Clouds" is underrated! [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: recreation [luvart@snet.net] Re: VG8 Sound ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #56 [SMC1254@aol.com] Re: VG-8 Info [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: synth , VG-8, recording questions [Randy Remote ] Re: VG8 Sound [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Trouble With The 10th World [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Lyrics and Music (was Re: VG8 Sound) [David Wright ] Re: broad brush [FredNow@aol.com] Re: VG8 Sound [FredNow@aol.com] AGREE W/ KAKKI [dave fairall / beth miller ] Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: VG-8 Info ["Kakki" ] Re: broad brush [FredNow@aol.com] WHEN IS THE BOX SET COMING OUT? [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: VG-8 Info [john low ] TTT Rediscovered [Scott Price ] Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) [catman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:32:42 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: $35 BSN Catgirl said >Go to Barnes and Noble.com, they have it for $44.95 then type in >password to get $10.00 off. That make it $34.99-whoo-hoo! >Password code is CTENOFF >Catgirl ps you can only use this code ONCE! If you've already used CTENOFF, I have 9 more $10 off $40 order coupons from Barnes & Noble listed on my web site :-) http://jonimitchell.freeservers.com/ Alan Lorimer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:02:56 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: synth , VG-8, recording questions Hey Michael and other guitarists - So, what should a fledgling guitarist buy? What's a good, reasonably priced electric guitar? Are some of them more suited to using with a VG-8 or a synthesizer? What's a good, reasonably priced portable amp? And regardless of whether the VG-8 is a synth or a modeler, does it have the capacities of a synthesizer? Do you have to buy both? Does anyone know what synth Pat Metheny uses to get all those incredible sounds? What can anyone tell us about how Joni records her songs? Recording my own songs lately, they are being recorded in fragments which are pieced back together. As an example, the intro is recorded first, followed by the first 8 bars of the verse. If the next bars of the Chorus are the same, it's just copied by the computer until you get to the bridge. In her oldest albums, does anyone know if Joni ever "spliced" together the same guitar parts? One disadvantage of this method is that you can't throw in a half a bar, or take meaningful pauses unless they are accurately counted out, much less go for some meter defying syncopations. I would say Joni probably never recorded this way unless it was on DED under the watchful eye of Thomas Dolby. Thanking you in advance, Clark NP: Pet Shop Boys, NIGHTLIFE ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:20:49 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) Fred wrote in answer to this question: > >>Why does it seem to me that so many of the > tracks [on TTT] sound remarkably > >>alike, if not in melody or subject matter, then > ambience or tone? > > Partly because they *are* very alike, but mostly because they just aren't > very inspired, musically speaking; in their note and chord choices ... the > melodies, the songs ... are just not that good or memorable. As opposed to > those on For The Roses, which is, musically speaking, everything that Taming > The Tiger is not. I'm very much on the same page as you with respect to Joni's early songs and For The Roses, but don't feel I can't quite sum up TTT adequately yet. While the VG-8-ized album does not grab me like her earlier works, when I heard some of the songs pre-release done on guitar and piano, they *did* grab me like in the old days. I'm thinking here of the original piano version of Man From Mars, and the early acoustic versions of Love Puts on A New Face and, to a lesser degree, Love Cries (early CCOL) and Facelift. There is something very layered, beautiful and memorable in these earlier renditions that is somehow lost, IMO, in the VG-8 conversion. (I feel the same way about the pared down renditions of the songs on the early HOSL demos, which immediately grabbed me more than listening to 25 years of the HOSL album proper.) Where the use of the VG-8 works and shines best to my ears is in Harlem in Havana, Lead Balloon and possibly Taming The Tiger, and those seem to be the songs which were originally composed using the VG-8. Here's a theory - maybe some of the full glory of her music originally composed on acoustic guitar and piano was a bit lost in the "translation" to VG-8 because it was still a pretty new tool for Joni and she might not have fully considered what may get lost in that translation? Could it be like any other kind of translation where some of the the original substance inevitably gets lost? I suspend much of my judgment for TTT for now because I get this nagging feeling that in another 10 or 20 years or so, it's all going to become perfectly clear to me and suddenly sound like one of the most brilliant works she has ever done. That is exactly what happened to me with DJRD. That album when it came out in 1977 truly sounded like really weird shit to me. I played it "repeatedly" trying to get it and feeling bereft that it did not grab me like most of the albums that preceeded it. Back then I thought Silky Veils of Ardor was the only "real" song on the album and I sort of appreciated Paprika Plains because I thought it was so trippy, but overall it was just way out there to me. As for the DJRD lyrics, we all love them now that we've pored over and parsed them and become so familiar with them, but taken straight up, many of them are downright loopy. For those who have heard DJRD for the first time in recent years, try going back and listening to the popular music of the late 70s and then play DJRD and you may get some idea of just how out there it was at the time. However, 20 some years later I put it second to FTR for it's brilliance and beauty. That's why I need to wait awhile before I will really feel ready to assess it in comparison to the rest of her work. Kakki NP: Joni - Here's To You ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:37:36 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: VG8 Sound "Eric Taylor" wrote: >I admit it took me dozens of listens to get >into TTT but now I consider it among her top five albums. I love the crisp >bell-like tone of her VG8. Her silky voice compliments the sound to a tee. >Joni's lyrics are as wonderful & more down to earth than ever! Harlem In >Havana, Love Puts On A New Face, Stay In Touch & Face Lift are as lyrically >brilliant as anything she has ever composed IMO. But where are the *melodies* that stick to your ribs, like (just to name a few) All I Want, Michael From Mountains, Help Me, Refuge Of The Road, I Don't Know Where I Stand, Both Sides Now, Amelia, A Case Of You, Little Green, My Old Man, Conversation, Banquet, Cold Blue Steel, Free Man In Paris, Dawntreader ... I could go on and on and on and on ... This is the woman who wrote some of the most brilliant and *memorable* melodies with chords (and even without on The Fiddle And The Drum) of all time, and, yes, we can all agree to disagree, but can you honestly say that the melodies on TTT are anywhere near the quality of the list above? Not even close! People keep lauding her lyrics, which is fine, but, c'mon ... where are the *tunes*?! - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:55:19 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: VG-8 Info > P.S. You know you you might try ringing up a music stor over there in > jolly old England and ask them if they have a Roland VG-8 in stock and > go over and see one in person and perhaps take it on a test drive. and look a fool!!! I wouldn't have clue how to test drive it! Can't play anything except with myself. - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:14:22 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush In a message dated 1/28/00 11:13:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, FredNow@aol.com writes: << Whoa, Nellie! It wasn't me, it was Roman! I defended all those composers. Dude, please be careful wading through the quotes of quoted quotes. -Fred >> see...its not the shit....its the fan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:01:32 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: VG8 Sound I don't want to dismiss or invalidate your opinions, Fred, but is it at all possible you haven't given the later albums a fair listen? Because to me, TTT is especially melodic, even though I'm wavering on the VG8. Remember that "a fair listen" to a Joni CD may constitute more than the average listens, because the beauty of the songs takes time to emerge. That goes for her early albums, too, at least for me. When I got her first album as a Christmas present in 1969, I remember that my first impressions were that the tunesgs were BORING! Can you believe it? Luckily I was persistent even as a young teen, and by January I loved them. At 04:37 AM 1/29/00 EST, you wrote: >People keep lauding her lyrics, which is fine, but, c'mon ... where are the >*tunes*?! > >-Fred Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ I love cats. They give the home a heartbeat. - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:41:03 +0100 From: Roman Subject: The Lone Ranger DW wrote: >I'm going to leap to Tube's defense, somewhat. I think it is >necessary to realize that Beethoven's music (and other composers from >that era) was produced directly by the aristocratic system. Wow, who was that masked man? I was gonna ask him to stay to dinner... tube ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:34:35 +0100 From: Roman Subject: Soda jerks Funny this - As 'jerk' generally means, well, 'jerk' - (nurd, prat, insignificant little person) in America, I'd often wondered why these hard -working concoctors amd purveyors of fine refreshments were called thus. In my standard Windows 95 Word (or is it Publisher?) clip-art folder, there's picture of a soda-jerk called 'soda-jerk', and as I supposed that Microsoft was a company that strived to be politically correct, I concluded that it must be okay to call a soda jerk a soda jerk. But if I have offended, I apologise. Can someone please explain the origins of the phrase to this Englishman? tube ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:22:02 +0100 From: Roman Subject: recreation Vince wrote: >People should be in relationships because it enhances their life in some >way. No one should be needy of another person; that is not healthy, I >think IMHO. So my sister is happily married now because she loves the >guy, not because being his wife defines her life. To answer a number of people who have come back to me on my "art is just recreation" statement, what Vince says above about "needyness" sort of sums up the idea I'm trying to get across about art. Life would be dull and boring without art, sure, but we could hack it okay. It's not always healthy to need other people or things that badly to define our existence. We're a lot tougher than we think we are. tube ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:26:44 +0100 From: Roman Subject: Oscar Wilde Les wrote: >That song reminds me of the immortal line of Oscar Wilde's about the >death of Nancy in "Oliver Twist", which I may be paraphrasing slightly: >"It would take a heart of stone to read about it and not laugh" I finally saw 'Wilde' the other night on video, with Stephen Fry in the title role, who I adore as being one of the funniest men alive. I was however hugely dissapointed in the film, as very little of the above-sampled tremendous wit of Oscar Wilde was used in the movie. Fry was damned good in the part, but his comic talents as a master of British sarcastic wit were almost totally unused. What remained was a treatment differing little from previous screen biogs of Wilde, a depressing downhill ride into his demise in near obscurity, and barely a joke in sight to relieve us on the way. tube. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:02:44 EST From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: "Clouds" is underrated! I saw a pole,in the JMDL where "Clouds" is rated her worst album.and in the biography of Joni,it sais that Joni considers it her artistic nadir.I find this very hard to understand.I think Clouds is excellent."Both Sides now","chelsea morning","I don't know where I stand","I think I understand","Roses Blue"...all great songs.I think "Clouds" is just as good or better then LOTC. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:11:21 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: recreation At 02:22 PM 1/29/00 +0100, Roman wrote: >To answer a number of people who have come back to me on my "art is just >recreation" statement, what Vince says above about "needyness" sort of >sums up the idea I'm trying to get across about art. > >Life would be dull and boring without art, sure, but we could hack it >okay. It's not always healthy to need other people or things that badly >to define our existence. We're a lot tougher than we think we are. > You've said a mouthful here, Tube. Isn't a large part of who we are part of what goes on around us? My family (and some friends) understand my passion for art and science. Does it define my existence? In part it does ...... it fulfills my appreciation for life. Does that make me weak? I think my family would tell you different. They keep saying that I'm the toughest person they know! I don't know about that! ;-) Heather "remember - a heart is not judged by how much you love but by how much you are loved by others" - the wizard from oz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:37:32 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: VG8 Sound At 04:37 AM 1/29/00 EST, Fred wrote: > >People keep lauding her lyrics, which is fine, but, c'mon ... where are the > >*tunes*?! > > > >-Fred and then Deb wrote: > I don't want to dismiss or invalidate your opinions, Fred, but is it at all > possible you haven't given the later albums a fair listen? Because to me, > TTT is especially melodic, even though I'm wavering on the VG8. Remember > that "a fair listen" to a Joni CD may constitute more than the average > listens, because the beauty of the songs takes time to emerge. and then Mark writes: I'm with Deb on this one. I understood your point about the melodies, Fred. My quoting from 'Love Puts On a New Face' was more in response to a comment somebody had made about Joni's lyrics not being as good as they used to be. Fred, you have expressed your feelings about Joni's melodies & chords before and since you are a musician and I am not, I have to respect your opinions on this matter. I would respect them even if you weren't a musician but it does lend them a bit more credence. However, I still disagree with you. I think that Joni's early songs, the first 3 albums especially, have melodies that, stylistically, are a perfect match for her lyrical style at that time. That is, they are more complicated & ornamented and, in some cases, just a tad overwrought. I do agree that on some of Joni's songs that have a lot of verses with a lot of words, the melodies did have a tendency to flatten out a bit. To me, Hejira is the worst offender on that score. I feel that she achieved a near perfect union of words & music on 'Court & Spark' with 'Blue' & 'For the Roses' running a close second. The lyrics began to take the spotlight & melody took to the back seat a bit on HOSL & Hejira and to a lesser degree, DJRD. Production began to take center stage with WTRF although it has some gorgeous melodies - 'Ladies Man', 'Moon at the Window', 'Love'. It completely takes the spotlight on DED, overshadowing some of the melodies (but all to good purpose for the overall theme of the record, imo) and then eases off a bit with CMIARS where we have some lovely tunes - 'My Secret Place', 'The Tea Leaf Prophecy', 'Snakes & Ladders', 'The Beat of Black Wings'. Night Ride Home & Turbulent Indigo came back full circle to placing the emphasis on the songs themselves rather than the production & the results were stunning. Not only do these records show incredible growth in her lyrical ability, they also show the same sort of paring down in the melodies and to me it only makes the whole much better than what she did in the 70's. And Taming the Tiger? It's there, Kakki, you're right. I love that record, loved it from the very first listen and played it over & over when I first got it, soaking up every word & note. I also loved the live version of 'Facelift' and I do think the GOMH version of 'Man From Mars' captures something that the TTT version misses. However, Joni was creating an entire cd's worth of music with a distinct sound. An acoustic 'Facelift' or a piano version of 'MFM' would have sounded out of synch with the rest of TTT & compromised its integrity, imo. And to our acoustic guitar fanatics, I respectfully submit that there is so much more to Joni's music than just the guitar. If that's all you're listening for (and I'm not implying that this is what anyone is really doing) then you're missing out on a *lot*. Geez, I've been windy lately! Time for a time out! Mark in Seattle ps: I also agree with Deb's comment about the relative familiarity of the early stuff as opposed to, say Joni's last 3 albums. Some of us have lived with those early records for about 30 years. Of course they're familiar and like old friends to us. Joni's always been progressive with her music and sometimes it's hard to get into her latest innovations. Give these records another 20 years, Fred! Then you'll have those melodies firmly locked in your brain cells! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:43:02 EST From: SMC1254@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #56 What are the Hissing Demo's? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:01:10 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: VG-8 Info In a message dated 1/28/00 11:31:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: << My thought are, this is the way she wants it to sound right now and when she decides to change it she does. >> i've been thinking this same thing. one question i have. when you play through alternate tuning patches, are the multiple sound options limited? in other words, are there more sound features available in standard tuning patches? if the answere is no, then i would think Joni likes her ttt sound, and to a degree, much of the ti sound as well. i think it sounds sort of like a pipe organ. i like it, but what i think i missed the most on ttt was the mixture of sounds. harlem was the best for that. after that, it seems monochrome to me..verses say...hejira or c&s. (harlem also reminds me of cotton avenue)pat ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:07:44 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) In a message dated 1/29/2000 4:27:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << For those who have heard DJRD for the first time in recent years, try going back and listening to the popular music of the late 70s and then play DJRD and you may get some idea of just how out there it was at the time. However, 20 some years later I put it second to FTR for it's brilliance and beauty. That's why I need to wait awhile before I will really feel ready to assess it in comparison to the rest of her work. Kakki >> Wow Kakki, Great post. I found myself shaking my head in agreement the whole time. When DJRD came out I was 15. I had a hard time listening to the whole double lp. When the 10th world came on came on I turned it off. I loved side 4. That was the only side I listened to for years. Now I love all of it but still am working on the 10th World. I need to let the primative part of me let go and wrap myself around that tune! DJRD is in my top five..so things are always changing. Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:34:39 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: synth , VG-8, recording questions CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: > > Hey Michael and other guitarists - > So, what should a fledgling guitarist buy? > What's a good, reasonably priced electric guitar? Are some of them more suited to using with a VG-8 or a synthesizer? I have had the Roland G-1 guitar synth for several years, and I almost never use it. I have been recording alot, and have not once used it on one of my songs. The reason? Well, whenI was playing with it in the showroom it could do so much, but it seems like using it with other instruments, it just ends up sounding cheesy, and, well, fake, like a $69 Casio organ. I have not hooked it up as a controller for my other (sample-based) synth keyboard. So, while I would love to get my hands on a VG-8, I'm kinda gun-shy at this point, and get more satisfaction musically from using an electric guitar and altering/torturing the sound to suit my purposes. Your question about a guitar suited for synth...Make sure the neck has no buzzes in it because these trick the pickup into false triggering. This is harder than it sounds because most electrics have a little fret buzz, which is not usually a problem, and is an acceptable compromise when going for a real low action. Guitar synths require a 'hex pickup', which is really six separate pickups, one for each string, and allows you to assign a different sound to each string! Your D string could be a sax, your A a bass, etc.. You can install a hex pickup on any solid body guitar-I put one on a Les Paul (don't worry, it's not vintage). Fender makes the "Roland-ready" model stratocaster with the hex pickup built in. If I were looking for a setup, I would look into one of those. You can get them for under $500 from Musicians Friend. Since I don't have experience with the VG-8, I don't know whether it uses the same hex pickup, or whether it does the same things as the Roland type synths. > What's a good, reasonably priced portable amp? For electric guitar I would look for a used one. A little Fender, Crate. It totally depends on what you're doing with it. Do you play blues-you need a nice creamy-smooth distortion; grunge? something you can make sound nasty; jazz, you want something with clarity, etc, etc...Also, if you are using a synth, remember that it is reproducing sounds with full bandwidth, and a regular guitar amp/speaker is only designed to produce frequencies up to say, below 10k. You would need something like a keyboard amp (not cheap), or you could just plug it into the mixing board of the PA. Also synths have stereo output (but of course you can run them mono, too). RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:03:24 EST From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #56 In a message dated 01/29/2000 12:53:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, SMC1254@aol.com writes: << What are the Hissing Demo's? >> The "Hissing Demo's" are the demo tapes that Joni made of the songs that eventually were put on the album HOSL (and Dreamland which ended up on DJRD). Most of the songs are done acoustically on guitar or piano--the songs are "bared down" versions of the final products. They are insightful to hear, in that it lets one get a glimpse of Joni's creative mind/process. If you are interested in getting a copy, E-mail me privately, and I'll be glad to work out either a "trade" or an "exchange" of blank and postage. Stephen Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:29:10 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Walk down Memory Lane in search of Michaels heart Newsmax: Dateline San Francisco: Here in the City by the Bay we have determined that Michaels heart has taken refuge in the hottest Cajun restaraunt in North Beach. Police have cordoned off the street keeping masssive supportive crowds at bay. As you can see helicopters circling overhead are preventing its escape to a neighboring salsa bar and garlic specialty house. Michaels heart has, through an interpreter, indicated it would not be willing to come out until it received and consumed its fourth martini and rack of shrimp. Meanwhile the heart has been entertaining the hostages with songs played on a VG-8. More news on this developing story ay 11. This is Marcel Deste reporting for CNN. back to you Bob. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:59:46 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: BSN - the song I was listening to a tape of Joni singing "Both Sides Now" from her '98 tour. (thanks to Bobby M.) It was from her concert in Atlanta which was the final stop on the tour (and her birthday). She ended her set with BSN which I think was the only time she sang it on the tour. I imagine the way in which she sang "BSN" will be similar to how it will be done on the upcoming release (sans orchestra). If this is the case, we will be in for a fantastic treat. She slows "BSN" down quite a bit, and with her voice being lower and more expressive, it takes on an even more of a romantic style. I just can't wait to hear it with the orchestra added. In fact I might be able to listen to this song by some lounge singer at the next wedding I attend if they perform it in this new manner. Signing off in 3 more hours, Will miss you folks ! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:16:50 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: cliqueish? Why does no one ever respond to my posts? I have introduced myself before, but despite your obvious love for Joni, I find this mailing list somewhat 'clique-ish' Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:38:05 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: VG8 Sound In a message dated 1/29/00 11:40:26 AM US Central Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << Give these records another 20 years, Fred! Then you'll have those melodies firmly locked in your brain cells! >> While this is true, the litmus test of melody in my mind is whether or not I can sing the song without hearing the music, and upon singing it accapella, listen to the melodic lines I'm singing and judge the melody on that. In so doing, I can testify that TTT is extremely melodic to my ear, with the exception of "No Apologies" and "Lead Balloon" which have pretty banal melodies. But, keep in mind, Joni was not out to write melodies here, but rather to create musical texture. I would agree that Hejira is not a strong *melody* album, but that fact does not detract from it in any way! I think the familiarity thing also comes into play. I think we instantly expect to love the new ones the same way we love our old, old friends, and that just doesn't happen. I can honestly say that I like TTT more now that I've savored it for a year and a half! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:40:32 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Trouble With The 10th World In a message dated 1/29/00 1:13:47 PM US Central Standard Time, CaTGirl627@aol.com writes: << Now I love all of it but still am working on the 10th World. >> 10th World either needs to be halved in length, or needs some additional color added to it. Boring, the old man is snoring... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:59:07 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Lyrics and Music (was Re: VG8 Sound) Fred wrote: > Many cite the maturation of Joni's lyrics through the years, away from > the more frilly beginnings, and I can see that growth. However, even > with her frilliest lyric, the music was deeply mature and profound [snip] Mark later wrote: > I think that Joni's early songs, the first 3 albums especially, have > melodies that, stylistically, are a perfect match for her lyrical > style at that time. That is, they are more complicated & ornamented > and, in some cases, just a tad overwrought. I completely agree, Mark. I think her musical development has mirrored her lyrical development from the very beginning -- that's part of what makes her the artist she is to me. I think her early melodies and chords are beautiful but somewhat contrived ("frilly"), without the natural flow (musical *and* lyrical) she would achieve later. To me, one of the distinctive musical habits that clearly reflects the frilly lyrics of her early (first two or three) albums is her downward chromatic parallel chord progressions (I'm not sure if this description is clear, but you can see what I mean on the guitar transcriptions on jmdl.com, where the chord shapes go 888888-777777-666666 and such) -- for example, on Marcie, Michael From Mountains, Morning Morgantown (maybe it's an "M" thing?), and -- the worst offender! -- Songs to Aging Children Come. These chord progressions grate on my nerves. I think that they, like some of the lyrics they accompany, are stilted and kind of laboriously "fanciful." I think this is something she stripped from her musical writing style just like she has described stripping the frills and ornaments from her lyric writing and her album cover art. Also, I have never thought the major/minor shifts in the melody worked on Fiddle and the Drum. This is all a matter of personal taste, of course. This is not to say that I don't think there is some brilliant music that I love on the early albums. I Had A King and The Dawntreader, for instance. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:17:47 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: cliqueish? In a message dated 1/29/2000 3:15:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jim50@hall7068.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Why does no one ever respond to my posts? I have introduced myself before, but despite your obvious love for Joni, I find this mailing list somewhat 'clique-ish' >> Welcome, Matthew! I'm sorry- I didn't see you introduce yourself. Sometimes I have to skip over mail because of the heavy volume. How did you come to love Joni? For some of us, she's been with us most of our lives. For others, she's a new flame. Tell us about yourself. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:40:37 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: cliqueish? In a message dated 1/29/2000 3:15:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jim50@hall7068.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Why does no one ever respond to my posts? I have introduced myself before, but despite your obvious love for Joni, I find this mailing list somewhat 'clique-ish' Matthew >> NO clique here that I know of...what was that you wanted us or whoever to respond to? Inquiring Cats wanna know..... Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:44:54 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: VG8 Sound Mark or Travis wrote: > At 04:37 AM 1/29/00 EST, Fred wrote: > > > >People keep lauding her lyrics, which is fine, but, c'mon ... where > are the > > >*tunes*?! > > > > > >-Fred Fred! That is more or less what i think. I don't consider Joni a tune person. None of her later work, to me, has a tune, at least not in the sense that I mean. Oh dear, this is hard to explain, but songs like The Circle Game have a definate tune(most of Carly's songs do). BUT that doesn't detract from her for me. It depends on my mood. if I want to be ulifted and have a sing along I listent to Carly. if I want to mellow out and be insular I listen to Joni. Strangely, I find joni relaxing. If I want to just sit back, kick my shoes off, and unwind, it is Joni i put on because her music doesn't over stimulate me. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:52:41 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush In a message dated 1/29/00 7:14:22 AM, you wrote: >see...its not the shit....its the fan ... like I said. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:58:25 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: VG8 Sound Deb Messling wrote: >>I don't want to dismiss or invalidate your opinions, Fred, but is it >>at all possible you haven't given the later albums a fair listen? >>Because to me, TTT is especially melodic, even though I'm wavering >>on the VG8. Remember that "a fair listen" to a Joni CD may >>constitute more than the average listens, because the beauty of the >>songs takes time to emerge. That goes for her early albums, too, at >>least for me. When I got her first album as a Christmas present in >>1969, I remember that my first impressions were that the tunesgs >>were BORING! Can you believe it? Luckily I was persistent even as a >>young teen, and by January I loved them. For me, the thing about great melodies is that they are always beautiful and memorable the very first time I hear them. Believe me, I've given TTT more than a fair chance, and it's not just TTT, it's almost every song on every studio album since DJRD ... Joni's melodic genius somehow dissipated. It makes me sad. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:20:43 -0600 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: AGREE W/ KAKKI That is exactly what happened to me with DJRD. That album when it came out in 1977 truly sounded like really weird shit to me. I played it "repeatedly" trying to get it and feeling bereft that it did not grab me like most of the albums that preceeded it. Back then I thought Silky Veils of Ardor was the only "real" song on the album and I sort of appreciated Paprika Plains because I thought it was so trippy, but overall it was just way out there to me. As for the DJRD lyrics, we all love them now that we've pored over and parsed them and become so familiar with them, but taken straight up, many of them are downright loopy. For those who have heard DJRD for the first time in recent years, try going back and listening to the popular music of the late 70s and then play DJRD and you may get some idea of just how out there it was at the time. However, 20 some years later I put it second to FTR for it's brilliance and beauty. That's why I need to wait awhile before I will really feel ready to assess it in comparison to the rest of her work. Kakki I agree that the first tunes on DJRD are incredible, especially years later. Talk to me , Jerhico, etc...... brilliant. I also think that some tunes on TTT are equally wonderful, like Man from Mars, the emotional range is killer, really touching. DF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:32:54 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) From: "lpeakes" Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:03:10 -0500 A friend of a friend of mine "went out" ( ahem! ) with Larry Klein this summer, so I sent my friend the recent post about Klein & Krall. When I saw my friend again, I mentioned the post came from the JMDL - I didn't rave about JM or anything (I think we were both in a rush, so I didn't have time - I'll add it wouldn't have taken me too long to start the rhapsody, but, as I say, we were hurried.) Last week, she had an Ani tape in her car's cassette player - and was just gushing. We didn't listen to the tape, 'cause we were gabbing, so I still haven't heard DiFranco. I think we even have one of her CDs here at the house, and I haven't listened! From her PR, and from my burnout as a pop/rock/alternative radio host (I'm in Public Radio now - seems to be the right fit) I made the assumption that Ani's long on rugged attitude and talk and short on melody and voice. I dismiss a lot of stuff right off the bat, though - I'll give the CD a try. I do sometimes miss being in the loop on the music scene - interesting how focus shifts - there's SO much to choose from that anyone with an appetite for variety can't stay allied and be satisfied, too. I am making a mental note to share my enthusiasm for Joni Mitchell's work with my friend as soon as I see her again! "Everything comes and goes.........." (Down to You) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:56:37 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: VG-8 Info Pat wrote: >one question i have. when you play through alternate tuning patches, are the multiple sound options >limited? in other words, are there more sound features available in standard tuning patches? if the >answere is no, then i would think Joni likes her ttt sound, and to a degree, much of the ti sound as >well. i think it sounds sort of like a pipe organ. i like it, but what i think i missed the most on ttt was > the mixture of sounds. This ties in with something I've been ruminating about that maybe Michael Paz can answer. How many of the "patches" were available to Joni when she first started using the VG-8? It sounds like currently there are endless sounds available, but perhaps it was limited in the beginning. I wonder what TTT would have sounded like if Joni had used a greater variety of "patches" in the songs. Maybe it would not have all "sounded so much alike." It sounds like she is basically using the same patch throughout, except for in Harlem in Havana and Lead Balloon - those songs are the two that stand out as "different" to me in the album. > harlem was the best for that. after that, it seems monochrome to me..verses >say...hejira or c&s. >>(harlem also reminds me of cotton avenue)pat In another case of synchro, not ten minutes ago I was running down some Joni songs in my head and I mentally "dialed in" Harlem but the lyrics to Cotton Avenue started playing, I swear to you!! Kakki NP: Joni - Lead Balloon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:11:32 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush In a message dated 1/29/00 4:56:51 PM, SCJoniGuy wrote: ><< see...its not the shit....its the fan > > ... like I said. >> > >Okay, I admit it, I must be an idiot, because I haven't a clue what this means. >I know what shit is, and I know what a fan is, but what does this mean in the >context of any discussion topic? I think Siresorrow was referencing my quote in the JMDL Gallery: "It's not the shit, it's the fan," as in, "when the shit hits the fan." In other words, shit, in and of itself, is not that big a deal, everyone has some, it's when it hits the fan that it really becomes a problem. And the reason he referenced it is that a rant against certain composers was mistakenly attributed to me ... through a series of quoted and re-quoted quotes, the shit hit the fan and got really messy. And Joni was in there somewhere, hence, the JC. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:27:38 EST From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: WHEN IS THE BOX SET COMING OUT? There are so many box sets out there,some of them of artist far less deserving of the boxed set treatment then Joni.Are there any plans for a Joni Mitchell box set in the recent future,and if not,why on earth not??? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:59:20 +1000 From: john low Subject: Re: VG-8 Info Bob M. wrote about Michael Paz's performances at the Jonifest: "Those of you who have heard it know what I'm talking about..." Bob sent me a CD with a selection of the performances from Ashara's and I have been listening to it over Christmas and the New Year. Michael is represented on this 'sampler' with a number of songs and I heartily endorse what Bob has said. The warm intimacy of his voice is deeply moving. His versions of "Love Puts On A New Face", "Song For Sharon" and "Hejira" are just marvellous. And, Michael, I don't want any payment for saying this! :-) I sent a copy of this sampler to Ange (she expressed her sentiments about it recently) and would be happy to make a cassette copy for any Australian jmdlers who would like to hear how much talent there is on this list. There is, as critics sometimes say, not a bad track on it! Email me privately if you are interested in this - or in a copy of the Los Angeles radio interview made available to us by Kakki & Co. The transcript of the latter has been posted to the list, I know, but you don't get the Joni laughter!!! John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:08:22 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: TTT Rediscovered On the eve of "Taming The Tiger's" supplantation as the most recently-released Joni album, I have been spending even more time with this colorful project. Over the years I have regularly played Joni's "current" album, along with a mix of older stuff. It's like, if I have the slightest hesitation about *which* Joni to play, I'll automatically reach for the "new" one. Sometimes the latest album gets to be two or three or four years old before the next one comes along, but that just adds to the anticipation of each new project. :-) So, before the "Both Sides Now" CD monopolizes my stereo, I've been working TTT into my playlists a lot. For me, TTT falls into the "improves with age" category. What is it about her work that continues to offer inspiration and wonderment time and again? The cliche answer may be "ahead of its time," but it's a good answer...in this case, the right answer. If I had to pick one significant new insight gleaned during this latest round of listening to the album, it would be my newly-found appreciation for the VG-8. While I couldn't criticize her for switching to this setup because of its ease of storing tunings, at times I really longed for the acoustic guitar sounds. I had felt that the electric guitar was a *substitute* for the acoustic, used only because it's easier to play and keep in tune, and as such, was accepted...on some songs even preferred...but lacked the backbone and the soul of the familiar acoustic. But I have come to look at the VG-8, and TTT, in a new light. Kind of like gazing across a broad vista. Instead of honing in on the "sameness" of the VG-8, I've incorporated its sonics in with the whole package. I agree with Fred that the melodies are nowhere near as memorable as they were in the first several albums...but I don't think it has been Joni's purpose of late to write catchy tunes...melodies that stick in your head...rather she has progressed beyond simply creating songs to painting pictures with music and giving the audience a dramatic presentation, leaving them with a whole different outlook. I can't believe I'll ever be humming "Harlem in Havana" to myself, but the *images* conjured up during that song are as vivid and powerful as anything she's ever done. I don't go away from a TTT session being as impressed upon with the structure (and genius) of the chords and melodies as I may be with the earlier Joni, but the lasting feeling is as strong as ever, due to the overall production and presentation. The emotive licks from Wayne Shorter, the delicious rhythms of Brian Blade, and the far-out synthy layers of keyboards and guitar all blend together with her voice to put up an ever-changing set of images like the carnival (Harlem), achingly missing a friend (Man From Mars), wistfully longing for a lover (Love Puts on a New Face), the ruthless soldiers (No Apologies), the unabashed hope (Stay in Touch, My Best To You) and on and on. These songs are not so much an accumulation of tracks as they are a homogeneously crafted series of images. Kind of like a play instead of a collection of vignettes, or a saga instead of a compilation of poems. They do not evoke for me the label "great song" so much as "great picture!" Along with the paintings in the CD liner, Joni offers an artistic experience that is lasting and emotional, with the most prevalent theme being "contentment." Not so much the seeker of truth and writer of confession as before, we are not able to project ourselves into the songs as much as we did earlier, but that's not the objective. What she's giving us now is the opportunity to look at the big picture. She's older and wiser, and I believe happier for having been able to sort out a lot of things in her life. This perhaps puts into perspective why she's not trying to utilize more discernable melodies or catchy hooks--they're not compatible with her art at this time. Additionally, she has taken a more minimalist approach to her lyrics which requires an adjustment on the part of the listener who is perhaps expecting more verbosity. And finally, I think it's easier for the listener to powerfully relate to the music when it's "down." When faced with melancholy, whether our own or the artist's, we more readily "connect" with the music because it offers comfort. Taming the Tiger is less about angst and more about acceptance of one's place in the world. One of my favorite Joni quotes is (paraphrasing) "never mind what the song does for me...what does it do for YOU?" And I've found that by letting the music simply happen...that is, not singling out the melody lines or the chordal movements or the synthy sonics, but becoming adrift in the waves...a new appreciation is achieved...a new awareness, a new set of pictures...a new way of enjoying the music. And that is why I believe it's ahead of its time. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:33:16 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) > > > Last week, she had an Ani tape in her car's cassette player - and was > just gushing. We didn't listen to the tape, 'cause we were gabbing, so I > still haven't heard DiFranco. I think we even have one of her CDs here at > the house, and I haven't listened! From her PR, and from my burnout as a > pop/rock/alternative radio host (I'm in Public Radio now - seems to be the > right fit) I made the assumption that Ani's long on rugged attitude and talk > and short on melody and voice. This is just my opinion: I bough an ani cd cos of all the talk of her here. Well i was shocked. i have never heard anything so awful(cept maybe the Sex Pistols). > I dismiss a lot of stuff right off the bat, > though - I'll give the CD a try. I do sometimes miss being in the loop on > the music scene - interesting how focus shifts - there's SO much to choose > from that anyone with an appetite for variety can't stay allied and be > satisfied, too. > > I am making a mental note to share my enthusiasm for Joni Mitchell's > work with my friend as soon as I see her again! > > "Everything comes and goes.........." > (Down to You) - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:46:54 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: cliqueish? Hello everybody, Thanks for all of your replies, I didn't mean to come across aggressive with my post, I just wanted to provoke some sort of response, which I suppose it did; everyone has been really nice. Of course I didn't expect everyone to fall at my feet when I first introduced myself, but I realise now that this is a very busy list, so obviously you can't respond to everything. Anyway, now I've got your attention...lol This is my intoduction. I am 18 years old, I live in the UK, not that far from Liverpool. I will be going to study at Liverpool University this September. As for Joni, I first got into her music last summer when I bought 'Blue'. I'd heard about her mostly through Tori Amos (she's my number one I have to say), who's cover of 'A Case Of You' I completely loved - it's still one of my favourite Joni songs. The Joni albums I own are: Blue Court and Spark Hejira Hits Misses Taming The Tiger The hits and misses collections are fantastic as an introduction to Joni's work. I normally think buying a 'hits' collection is a bit of a cop out as opposed to buying a proper album, but it really did amaze me. I actually prefer 'misses' 'cause that seems to have more of her '90s work on it. I've read what you've all said about TTT and I really like it. When I first got it (just a couple of weeks ago) it didn't move me whatsoever - I liked it really only because it was Joni, but that was also the reason why I gave it more time. I don't know much about the VG8 at all, but I think the album is really warm and it suits her voice now. The album's still pretty intense but of course it's different from before; after 30 years there's no point taking steps back. It also has a couple of my fave Joni tracks on it: 'Harlem In Havana' and 'The Crazy Cries Of Love' I have to say I do prefer her 'Blue' and 'Court and Spark', probably because I identify with them a bit more, but I'm also looking forward to getting 'Turbulent Indigo' next. Even though, in the store near me, it's more expensive than all of the others. That's all I have to say for now, thanks for reading if you made it this far. Oh and when is 'Both Sides Now' out in the UK? Matthew and... apart from TI, which album would you recommend next? ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #39 ******************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?