From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #37 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Friday, January 28 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 037 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine [FredNow@aol.com] If Joni can't sing, the pope's not catholic. [Richard Rice ] Re: BSN [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) [FredNow@aol.com] joni's voice [Deb Messling ] the chosen few [Roman ] On needing Mozart like a fish needs a bicycle [Chilihead2@aol.com] Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: joni's voice [catman ] Re: Trouble with The Tiger [Susan McNamara ] Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine [Susan McNamara ] Re: the chosen few (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Trouble with The Tiger [Susan McNamara ] Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) [Bounced Message ] she moves in mysterious ways [jan gyn ] Re: the chosen few [dsk ] Get TIME MAGAZINE for possible Joni Review [mann@chicagonet.net] see joni sing, see joni write.... [Bounced Message ] Re: Trouble with The Tiger ["Alan Lorimer" ] NEW TO DIGEST [dave fairall / beth miller ] How To Be Fabulous (JC and BC--book content) [Siqwomb@aol.com] Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine [CaTGirl627@aol.com] $35 BSN?! [FredNow@aol.com] Re: broad brush [FredNow@aol.com] VG-8 Info [Michael Paz ] More VG-8 102 [Michael Paz ] Re: VG-8 Info [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Walk down Memory Lane [Michael Paz ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:27:40 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine Susan McNamara wrote: >>I feel Joni's singing started taking on this instrumental quality >>around the time of Mingus (could be earlier with some stuff on >>Hissing of Summer Lawns) Actually, for me Joni has *always* used her voice as an instrument right from the beginning, both figuratively and literally, as in her exquisite, spine-tingling, soul-shivering "flute" solo on I Don't Know Where I Stand. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:54:12 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: If Joni can't sing, the pope's not catholic. Hi all, I am so impressed by my self restraint. I have managed to listen to the LACE interviews AND pass over the prequels to the BSN cd. I am saving my ears for the real deal. I want the whole experience to open up magically. BSN will definitely get some exposure with me, as I play her music in all the art classes I teach. Mostly the kids grumble and scratch their heads, but I refuse to relent. They simply do not get the big picture so I happy try to help them along as best I can. I always tell them, "This class is not a democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship..." I will have a captive audience when BSN is released. As for Joni not being able to 'sing', the thought is hardly worth a response, so I won't. The only talents Joni lacks, as so well put by one reviewer, is the 'gift for writing dumb pop songs.' Beyond that, she is a brilliant talent and one of the great artists of all time, certainly one of the greatest of this century. She can do it all, and all of it with amazing craftsmanship, creativity and originality. And I say this not as some mindless slobbering fanboy. I can be very critical of her. Sometimes I am embarassed for her when she forgets a verse, drifts in tempo or wails a note or two rather than sing them. She has done those things on occasion. In truth, these flubs only make me smile. Thank god she's human! I was beginning to think Mulder and Scully would have to do an episode or two about her! Can't you just see running up to her when she did the black face thing for DWRD and pulling on her face, only to find underneath it all, she's a little green alien in blonde drag with a brain equivalent to three Mac G4s? So she butchered the Mingus material in her first live take. The woman has done more beautiful art in a month than most of the world could do in twenty years put together. She has overcome every weak point in her music. But I have digressed from the reason I originally meant to post: regarding her writing. I don't think Joni has missed a beat at all in the craft of her writing. It is as sharp, perceptive, discriptive, insightful, and as richly layered as ever. What has changed, and this change goes with every album done, is her life experience. The songs grow out of life. If her earlier work resonates more with you, it is because the life issues she is responding to, resonate more with you as well. It's very possible that the world may not care one hoot that she is happy to have found her lost family. It may touch fewer people, lack the 'importance' of her ealier triumphs, but that doesn't make it any less viable for her to write about it. The concerns of a sixty year old woman may not have as much worth to us as those of a thirty year old woman. We are going to find out whether or not that's true, I hope. (Praying for new material.) Given her track record, my money is on Joan making it definitely worth my while to stay tuned. John. (Not a green man with the brain power of 3 G4's and regretting that there are meaningful possiblities in the subject of life experience generating themes, generating songs, but my brain is too lacking to think of them...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:08:42 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: BSN Alan Larson wrote: >>> In my canon, her first nine studio albums assure > her place as >>one of the bona fide geniuses of all time. > > -Fred >>I agree totally Fred. I think her coming out with these songs now >>shows us that even she regrets to some degree her change in song >>writing genre. She loves those old songs more than she has let on, >>but just didn't want it to seem like she was "leaning" on her early >>successes. IMHO She HAS grown as an artist, and that's a good thing. >>And who knows? Maybe she will yet write another BSN or Circle Game >>or Urge for Going. Blasphemers unite... for better or worse... >>sorry! Eeesshh! It's not my usual habit to disagree with those who ostensibly agree with me, and no offense, but I feel I can't "unite" with what you write here, Alan. You say you agree with me but it's with something I didn't intend! In no way do I think that Joni recording standards indicates any regrets on her part about her recent songwriting, nor do I think she should have any, despite my disappointment with same. She has proudly followed her drummer, so to speak, for better or for worse, and rightly so. All I can hope, for my own sake, is that she finds her musical song gift again and writes new melodies as inspired as the older ones. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:07:11 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Trouble with The Tiger Jason says: >Why does it seem to me that so many of the >tracks sound remarkably alike, if not in melody >or subject matter, then ambience or tone? I think Jason has really hit the nail on the head here. There is a "sameness" to the tracks on TTT. This is the first album where Joni relies solely on the VG8. While the VG8 is an amazing instrument, it just doesn't have the depth or feeling of an acoustic guitar. As Susan McNamara said earlier in the year "Although the VG8 made her decide not to retire from performing, her acoustic work on NRH and TI are breathtaking." Tracks such as "Turbulent Indigo" and "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" are excellent examples of what we are missing out on here. Even though I would hesitate to recommend TTT(blasphemy, I know), "Harlem In Havana" and "Love Puts On A New Face" are still among my favourite Joni tracks ever. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:39:12 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: BSN Louis Lynch wrote: >>Joni Mitchell has produced some of the wittiest and eloquently >>complex lyrics I've ever heard, with some of the greatest images, >>"summer colored skin," "sittin' on my groceries," "slick black >>cellophane," "red sun... rolling over a grey sky." CaTGirl627@aol.com wrote: >>Although I am not CRAZY over TTT, TI was AMAZING!! Alright you >>guys,,,have you forgotten this incredible record?!?! Each song is >>deep and tell such a picturesque story. Don Rowe wrote: >>Joni Mitchell took conventional lyric writing into uncharted waters >>from her first release, and then pushed the envelope as far as even >>she could go -- and nobody's come within fifteen light years of her >>since. "Eric Taylor" wrote: >>Harper Lou admits: <<....I don't think Taming the Tiger contains Joni's best writing. In fact, "Face Lift" and "Stay in Touch" sound sort of rambling to me, not nearly as well crafted as most of her other songs, which are poetic masterpieces. >> >>Critics called Hejira's vocals & lyrics *rambling* when it was >>released. 20 years later Hejira is hailed as Joni's masterpiece. >>*We're burning brightly / Clinging like fire to fuel / I'm grinning >>like a fool* is as great as anything Joni has penned. Another line >>I love from TTT: *Every disc / A poker chip / Every song / Just a >>one-night stand / Formula music / Girlie guile! / Genuine junkfood / >> For juveniles!* "Mark or Travis" wrote: >>And to me the songs you mention here are mere primers compared to >>what she has done on her last 3 albums. I could cite examples. I've >>done that before but it wouldn't change anybody's mind. But I can't >>resist at least one lyrical example: >>He said 'I wish you were with me here The leaves are electric They >>burn on the river bank Countless, heatless flames' I said 'Well >>send me some pictures then And I'll paint pyrotechnic Explosions of >>your Autumn Til we meet again.... >>I don't think she could have written something like that even 20 >>years ago. Certainly not when she started. It doesn't get any better >>than that. Quite awhile back I wrote that, for me, songs are more about the music than the lyrics. Forgive me for repeating much of it here, but it's pertinent to the subject at hand. To be sure, the marriage of profound lyrics with profound music is a miracle (and one that Joni has performed as often as anyone), but the music has to say everything the lyrics say ... and much more. Many cite the maturation of Joni's lyrics through the years, away from the more frilly beginnings, and I can see that growth. However, even with her frilliest lyric, the music was deeply mature and profound, almost preternaturally so, and expressed so much more than what the lyric may have failed to deliver. Most of the responses to my recent post about early Joni vs. later Joni, as quoted above, cite her lyrics, with which I've never had a quarrel. I think for many folks what a song is "about" is its lyrics, the music comes second. Sometimes (but not always) this is because while we all use words in speaking and writing, our foremost language, it necessitates a more musically educated palette to "speak" and understand the language of music, which is to be expected. For me, then, what a song is about is its music, for if we take the music away we have (only) poetry, but if we take the lyrics away we still have music, and in a good song, musically speaking, the meaning is still there. While Joni's lyrical gift has remained intact, I sadly feel that her musical gift has not. Her melodies and chordal movement do not seem nearly as inspired, inventive, or memorable as they once were. I can, for instance, easily recall almost any melodic passage from her first nine studio albums, even if I haven't heard it in months or years. On the other hand, I can hardly remember a single melody from her recent work, nor do very many of them move me when I listen. I'm sorry, I know to many this really is heretical, but I assure you that I consider Joni's early work to be as musically profound as any music I've ever heard, and that is really saying a lot. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:39:31 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) Jason Maloney wrote: >>I don't know what it is about TTT that makes it difficult to love in >>anywhere near the same way as just about any other Joni studio album >>I have heard (which is all of them bar FTR and Mingus). Jason ... do I read this correctly? You've *never* hear For The Roses?! Man, get thee to a tune-ery, toute suite! One of Joni's very best, on every level, and when forced up against the gun I choose it as my single deserted island Joni album. >>Why does it seem to me that so many of the tracks [on TTT] sound remarkably >>alike, if not in melody or subject matter, then ambience or tone? Partly because they *are* very alike, but mostly because they just aren't very inspired, musically speaking; in their note and chord choices ... the melodies, the songs ... are just not that good or memorable. As opposed to those on For The Roses, which is, musically speaking, everything that Taming The Tiger is not. (Sorry once again for any possible offense ... none intended). - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:37:41 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: joni's voice I think Joni's voice is more than ready for the songs she's covering on the new album. It's true that a combination of age and smoking has made her voice less supple, and that's occasionally frustrating when a short, breathy approach doesn't suit the music (and her voice comes and goes in that regard: strong and supple at Woodstock; less satisfactor IMO on the PWWAM video). BUT (and I guess this is a "me too") she throws so much heart into this new singing. I've heard her in years past critized as "chilly;" well it's pretty warm in here, pal! So womanly and sexy and emotional. BTW, if the pillories her for her "lost voice" I hope they are not the same critics who've been lionizing Tony Bennett. I saw him live last summer and his voice was as age-worn as Joni's, but with none of the artistry or warmth, IMVHO. Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ I love cats. They give the home a heartbeat. - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:15:00 +0100 From: Roman Subject: the chosen few tube wrote: >But classical music CDs I can easily get along without, with no physical >side-effects. And two hundred years ago, I'd have HAD to get along >without it. So that's why I can just shove it. waytoblu responded: >This does not make any sense to me at all. I know there are people today >who live on the street and do not own cd players and cannot buy Joni >Mitchell cd's but that's not going to stop me from listening to Joni or >any other artist for that matter. I think it is >extremely presumptious to >attribute the source of inspiration to composers who lived 200 years ago. >And don't you think that Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, whoever would have >wanted everyone, regardless of there >social caste, to hear their music. >I know I do. >As a musician and songwriter, I write songs for myself though they are >inspired in a major way by people I have come to know and love, stories I >have read, experiences I have lived through...Simply though, I write >because I have to, because I don't know how >else to live and I have an >innate desire for everybody to hear my songs because I love them and I am >driven to >write, sing, perform. >If I was rich and had a lot of money, I could build my own studio or buy >hours of recording time and sit for days and record all my songs (of >which I have over a hundred) but instead, I >work 40 hours a week, >struggle to make ends meet, and promote my music when I can and keep >hoping that >someday or somewhere, someone who does have some >money/clout/power will take an interest in what I am >doing and maybe I >will be able to realize my dreams and create something >that is beautiful >that will be around >long after I am gone. >You see, nothing is any different now than it was 200 years ago. Money >is >power...why do you think so much crap is on the radio and television and >so much good music is left unknown >and unheard. To have this >attitude...to me it seems just as bad as the people whom you hold in such >contempt. If >you really don't like classical music then don't listen to >it. But if you like any music, go listen to it now and love it >because >music withstands and perseveres through all times and cannot be and >should not be kept in a box for only a chosen few. I think you're probably making the common mistake that there's something noble about art - There isn't. It's just recreation. It can communicate an idea, embellish and add relief to the drudgery or functionality of an everyday object or service, or, like wine, gladden the heart of man for a season. Art is a blessing, not a right. We've been provided with enough beauty in nature without really NEEDING to create anymore. Try reading Chapter 8 of Madame Bovary to get something of the flavour of all this. Here's a dame who's clearly out of the loop - she never gets to hear fine music, because she's just two clicks below the necessary social level. And she's a doctor's wife for crying out loud! Hey if even she is excluded from the finer things in life, think how much less the farm labourer's are gonna ever see or hear of high art! But they all got by, somehow. Do you think God would create a world that depended on everyone having free access to good art and music for their happiness? No I don't think so. But Emma Bovary had her mind blown at the ball - she let her apparent lack of an interesting life filled with beautiful things and people get to her, and it doomed her to a life of disillusionment. I'm an artist too, and whenever I sell a piece of work, I know that there's now plenty of rich suckers out there who can afford to buy the kind of crap I produce. I'm glad to be able to milk back a bit of wealth from the pompous assholes. When I score a sale off a richman, it's more than just a sale, it's a blow struck for the common man - I'm getting something back that his ancestors stole from the peasants hundreds of years ago. If I can do it with art, so much the better, 'cos producing art ain't like REAL work now, is it! It's like the Indian guy's father said about Thatcherism in 'My Beautiful Laundrette' - 'Don't feel guilty about making money - You've got to be able to milk the system'. ie, those foul colonial Brits shafted the Indians up the ass for two hundred years - But now in the 1980's the Indians and Pakistanis are in England, trading almost as equals, so they can milk back some of that wealth. And more power to 'em I say! You see, there's nothing noble about the art business. I'm in it for money, so that I can feed my family. But I don't think my work is important enough to need to be seen by a universal audience, although it's tempting to think that way - But it's only art, man! It's human dross. What comes out of a man defiles him. Art's nothing to be proud of. We mustn't make the mistake of thinking we're doing anybody a public service by being artists. It's just a recreation industry - - There's rules and there's dues to be paid. - Joni got mad at the 'audience' on the Isle of Wight, because they thought they deserved a free-festival, a re-run of Woodstock. But she had to tell'em - (paraphrased Joni-thoughts)"look guys, if you think I'm worth it, then you shouldn't begrudge paying for your ticket to hear me." Joni knows it's just business. Heck, Kristofferson was also so disgusted with the mob, he just walked off and left them to it. But Joni and Kris are looking at the situation from the point of view of 1970. They know the audience can afford to pay. But Beethoven and Mozart - Do you think they lost any sleep over the fact that they'd been lucky enough to find a niche market for their talents, when the rest of the working class were often near starving and totally and actively excluded from their audience because of the political beliefs of the people who were paying for the music to be composed and performed? Well do you think they lost any sleep over it? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Would I have lost any sleep over it? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Would you have lost any sleep over it? I don't know. Would any of us sleep well in our German hotel room, lying on a comfortable mattress stuffed with the hair of exterminated Jews? Would we let it spoil our holiday? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not... But you need to think about these things. Like I already said, I'm not directly mad at the composers - I'm mad at the world they lived in. Mozart & Co milked the system. If we want to be kind to them, then lets say that they too were striking a blow for the common man. But all the same I'd just as soon see that whole long period in history buried and forgotten, so whenever I hear music from that era, it starts me thinking about how sickeningly unjust a world it was. I don't like to be reminded of it. And because I personally don't have any illusions about art being noble or sacred for it's own sake, then I can afford to take the Draconian and Philistine stance of flushing Mozart's work down the can along with his patrons. I know there's a strand of historical interpretation that popularly flows in some quarters of the United States that looks back on old Europe as some kind of happy, jolly bohemian place, full of fine music and art and altruistic, cultivated lords and ladies, especially during the wonderful Renaissance, although still largely peopled by stupid, lazy, communistic types who just couldn't get their act together until the Industrial Revolution came along. But the Industrial Revolution was a new golden age of enterprise and self-enabling betterment for those who would work - The poor farmers were suddenly freed from the land, were able to find steady-paying work in the new factories and so raise their standard of living and station in life, and everyone lived happily ever after. Listen this is such a load of crap - I know it still gets taught in American schools because sometimes I cruise the websites of US grade schools and I read the reports the kids are writing. (and being given top marks for it!) Paul Simon sings (on 'Kodachrome', I think it is) "When I look back at all the crap I learned in high-school" Listen, old Europe was a sewer. The Industrial Revolution has eventually borne some sweet fruit, and we're all benefiting from that today - Like the democratisation of music and the arts for instance, which I've already discussed - Nearly anyone can have a Niiiiiiiiiiiii-kon camera now. And that's good. Cargo-worship is a thing of the past, Polynesians are using mobiles now. But the Industrial Revolution was a long and very painful process, and it didn't have anything to do with the altruism of the upper classes. As my quote from the MP Dr Philimore yesterday shows, the factory owners would have been happy to just lock all us workers up in the dark factory and throw away the key. True, the Luddites and Saboteurs of the late 1700s, along with (much later) the Russian revolutionaries who killed the Romanoff family and trashed the art and beauty of the old imperialist regime (before the 'new bosses' [see The Who 'Won't get fooled again'] told them not to - better to sequester this stuff (along with the good vodka) and sell it later when times got hard, or if Stalin needed the cash for a new house), or the austere Maoist Communists of China, or even, dare I say, the Islamic fundamentalist mobs who overturned the Shah of Iran and put a hyperascetic murderous killjoy tyrant like the Ayatollah in power instead; All these were, in the long run, only hurting themselves, acting out of ignorant misinformed prejudices, and ultimately impoverishing their own cultural life, foolishly closing their minds to a more gentle, more beautiful, richer way of life - But see, that's the Philistinery that breeds in a climate of poverty and oppression. These 'crimes' against art and culture are crimes of passion. And if you can't understand that, or why I can trash Beethoven without batting an eyelid, then you need to read some more history, and not the jingoistic capitalistic crap they still serve up as history in American grade schools. I think that most of tbe JMDL is aleady better educated than that, which is why I enjoy opening up and sharing my heart with you all once in a while. Jonipeople understand, or at least try to. Thanks for your patience - it's not easy putting gut feelings into words, but, after prompting, I think I've finally got all of this one off my chest at last. Something just pushed my button, is all. tube.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:38:37 EST From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: On needing Mozart like a fish needs a bicycle Dear Tube et al, "You've got to shake your fists at lightning ...you've got to roar like forest fire"-JM While I find your recent posts refreshingly acerbic and witty, I think you're forgetting something important. There are always musically inclined people born into every level of the social atmosphere. People who will bang two coconuts together and make a symphony to make your heart sing. The Africans brought over as slaves to the Americas, clung to their beautiful rhythms which evolved into the sophisticated music we call jazz, rock, gospel, calypso, reggae, the blues, etc. My ancestors (ignorant native American killing bastards though they were) brought instruments from Europe and made music during the long winter months. And of course, there are always people with the gift of song. People who sang in the fields while burdened down to breaking. These innate musical talents have nothing to do with the socio-economics of the thing. The peasants always had their music and will always. They MAY have needed Mozart like a fish needs a bicycle, but they still needed and did have music. - -Chili PS. I did go to an American public high school (and in the states that means public) and I was lucky enough to have some wonderful teachers in spite of all the race riots, gangs, killings, etc., and yes there was some crap, but it's my job to sort out the crap from the useful. History is just "his" story unless you were there and is as malleable as lead. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:04:20 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Trouble With The Tiger (was Re: BSN) In a message dated 1/27/00 6:42:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, jason.maloney@virgin.net writes: << but TTT doesn't seem to have the impact on me that I sense it could (or should) have. >> i listen to joni stuff every week, spaced between other music. i work alone and have a three cd changer stereo. sometimes i put in blue and play it with natalie merchant and maybe clapton or m'shell and run all three of them for a week at a time. maybe even three times in a day, five straight days. i do the same with hejira, ti, c&s, hits, misses, ftr, etc. i never do it with ttt. i don't think about it much. it just does not hold my attention. i play it once every four or five months. but i can't do it for days straight. pat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:06:34 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: joni's voice > she throws so much heart into this new > singing. I've heard her in years past critized as "chilly;" It is surprising anyone would call her chilly! Her voice on NRH and TI IS emotion. Just goes to show how different people are. The one thing I would never agree with is that Joni lacks emotion in the use of her voice. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:13:38 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Trouble with The Tiger >Tracks such as "Turbulent Indigo" and "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" are >excellent examples of what we are missing out on here. > >Even though I would hesitate to recommend TTT(blasphemy, I know), "Harlem In >Havana" and "Love Puts On A New Face" are still among my favourite Joni >tracks ever. I can't help but think that Joni's experimentation with the VG-8 produced a different dynamic in the production of these songs. When Joni introduced songs like Love's Cries (the original title of Crazy Cries of Love) and Facelift before the Vg-8 I loved them instantly but I was not as crazy about the TTT versions (the danger of tape trees!). Harlem in Havana was written specifically for the VG-8 and I think it works beautifully (with the help of the brilliant Brian Blade). Maybe this is because I became loyal to the acoustic versions or maybe something subtle was lost when translated into the VG-8 language. I don't know, but just as with Dog Eat Dog, the more I listen the more I like. It's Joni!! I don't like to rate which album means more to me. Eliminating one would diminish the whole (for my ears anyway! but I'm a fanatic). Take care, Sue NP: Man from Mars (boo hoo!) ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:21:24 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine >Actually, for me Joni has *always* used her voice as an instrument right from >the beginning, both figuratively and literally, as in her exquisite, >spine-tingling, soul-shivering "flute" solo on I Don't Know Where I Stand. > >-Fred Yes, of course you are right. I was thinking of her jazz stuff as pushups for the standards album. I also get chills from her angelic choir on Rainy Night House. ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:38:34 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Trouble with The Tiger > > > I can't help but think that Joni's experimentation with the VG-8 produced a > different dynamic in the production of these songs. Is this VG8 thing why TTT sounds so odd and all the tracks sound similar? I listened to TTT this afternoon and I noticed this for the first time-that they all sound similar. The tracks also sound as if they are echoing(NO it is not my hifi). There is also this twanging sound going thru most tracks.What is a VG8? A synth of some sort? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:14:51 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: the chosen few (md) In a message dated 1/28/2000 4:42:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, ramnix@pronet.it writes: << I think you're probably making the common mistake that there's something noble about art - There isn't. It's just recreation. >> This statement HAS to be a designed simply to get everyone raging in debate. But it cant be serious. I direct ol' tube to the Sistene Chapel in the city he lives in and knowing the history of just that one room and the history of the works therein defy him to consider what created all that art to be "just recreation". Cave paintings by ancient humans were everything from religion to magic to a desire to acquire immortality. Recreation???? I could go on for days expanding on that one idea but suffice it to say that the premise for the above statement is the equivalent of the King in 'Amadeus' stating to Mozart that the only thing wrong with his spectacular works just heard was that "they had too many notes". This does explain one thing and that is the answer to the question "How can some bands be absolutely horrible and still maker records"> The answer is that "There are some people out there whjo like their music" Now we know who that might be. And for what reason. Its all just recreation so what difference does it make. cheers marcel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:45:03 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Trouble with The Tiger The Roland VG-8 is a synthesizer that allows Joni to store all her tunings on a hard drive so the strings of her guitar are always tuned the same but by programming the synthesizer she can make it sound like it's in one of her 60 odd tunings (this saves her a lot of time by not having to re-tune all the time). Another feature of the VG-8 is there are different "colors" or sound textures that can be programmed. For example, the Harlem in Havana "color" is called Crystal. There is also a "color" called Acoustic Guitar but no matter how you program the VG-8 it will always have an electronic sound to it. Are there any VG-8 players out there who would like to elaborate? I've never had the privilege of playing one. Sue At 5:38 PM +0000 1/28/00, catman wrote: >> >> >> I can't help but think that Joni's experimentation with the VG-8 produced a >> different dynamic in the production of these songs. > >Is this VG8 thing why TTT sounds so odd and all the tracks sound similar? I >listened to TTT this afternoon and I noticed this for the first time-that they >all sound similar. The tracks also sound as if they are echoing(NO it is >not my >hifi). There is also this twanging sound going thru most tracks.What is a >VG8? A >synth of some sort? ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:09:51 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Prince, diFranco and Joni (SJC) From: "intagliata.m" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:47:44 -0300 I read the following recently on the Village Voice site (http://www.villagevoice.com). It was part of a review of both Prince's and Ani diFranco's new albums. The reviewer was talking about the similarities between both musicians, and then he/she wrote: "Of course the former "slave" of contractual hoo-ha respects the undisputed poster girl (with no poster) for indie labeldom. But it's deeper than that. They also share both a sense of ultraperfectionism and a self-defeatingly-vs.-self-perpetuatingly prolific recording history. Oh, and they both dig Joni Mitchell. Ani obviously idolizes her, and the Artist at one point wrote a song for her, which she declined; he settled on namechecking her in "Ballad of Dorothy Parker" and covering "A Case of You" instead. True story. Now he offers an acoustic-ish nod to Ms. Mitchell on a way-too-short Rave number entitled "Tangerine," a sonic expression of color that's reminiscent of Joni's "Blue." " I thought it might interest some of you. If it doesn't at all, I apologize. If anyone would like to read the whole article it's called THE ARTISTS FORMERLY KNOWN AS EACH OTHER (ALMOST). Mariana in Argentina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:33:51 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: she moves in mysterious ways On one of the X file lists people're rewriting JM songs with X File content ("raised on conspiracy'", "Help Me (scully's falling)", etc.. Man do people have free time or what... - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:05:22 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: the chosen few Tube in Rome wrote: > I'm an artist too, and whenever I sell a piece of work, I know that > there's now plenty of rich suckers out there who can afford to buy the > kind of crap I produce. I'm glad to be able to milk back a bit of wealth > from the pompous assholes. When I score a sale off a richman, it's more > than just a sale, it's a blow struck for the common man - I'm getting > something back that his ancestors stole from the peasants hundreds of > years ago. If I can do it with art, so much the better, 'cos producing > art ain't like REAL work now, is it! So your work as an artist is all about "getting over" on someone? With this hostile, derisive attitude I'm surprised you sell anything, since transactions are often quite personal. I can't take this post seriously enough to respond to the specifics, although I appreciate the interesting and more-patient-than-I-am responses so far. I go between getting annoyed and almost laughing out loud at the pseudo-Marxist ranting. It all boils down to "life is unfair." Well, always has been, always will be, there's no new news in stating that. Now if some of this anger gets into your art, well, that would be interesting since it would be more honestly you than the "crap" you say you're making now. Until then, it's all just surface stuff. All in my opinion, of course. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:57:30 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Get TIME MAGAZINE for possible Joni Review TIME magazine may have a review of Joni's new release in February. Didn't TTT even have an ad in TIME when it first came out? I believe it did. If you like to collect printed articles now's a good time to do this offer. Get 4 Free Trial Issues of TIME magazine. If you like it you can get 26 more issues (for a total of 30) at 99 cents a week. If not, just return your bill marked "cancel" and keep the 4 issues FREE without paying a cent! Call toll-free for 4 FREE trial issue of TIME 1-800-442-6566 **Seen in PEOPLE magazine February 7, 2000 issue** Just remember to return your bill marked 'CANCEL' after you receive the 4 free issues if you do not want to pay anything. Can I sneak in another duffle bag sweeps here? Win another duffle bag in round two of the Pennzoil sweeps. If you're interested........do this fast before they run out. Call toll-free: 1-800-566-1600 Stock Number is: 3653 You'll need to give our your name, address, phone & age. Question 1 #2 Question 2 #4 Question 3 #4 This is a Pennzoil Sweepstakes. You will be registering to win a trip to the NCAA final four. Answer the trivia questions correctly and you INSTANTLY win a DUFFLE BAG, t-shirt & a pin. Read all the rules here: http://www.pennzoil.com/prdsmktg/products/offers/ncaahalf_promo.htm 24 trips will be given away. Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:33:19 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: see joni sing, see joni write.... From: "Jerome Gonzales" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:34:49 -0800 Aside from the fact that this discussion has taken on an adversarial tone at certain points (we're all just very defensive of our Joni, I think), I really enjoy this discussion. So much that I'm going to throw my semi-lurking two cents in. I love Joni's current work beyond belief. I love her old stuff with indescribable passion. I think that comparing the earlier work with the later work, favorably or not is a moot point. It's always been my feeling that there are several distinct Joni Mitchells on the record shelf. At least on mine there is. As such, Joni (writer, producer, and singer) comparison between Joni and Joni isn't unequal, it's apples and oranges. Forgive this rather hackneyed (and somewhat unflattering) analogy: You can't compare a grape and a raisin. The grape is what it is. The raisin is what the grape became. But they are not the same and one is not better than another. And while you'll never make wine out of the raisin, you'll never get two scoops of grapes into a cereal box, either. (See-I told you it was a hackneyed analogy! And I don't know that anyone outside the U.S. will get the cheesy Raisin Bran reference...) So that's my say. Old Joni, New Joni-just give me Joni. Jerome ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:05:27 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Trouble with The Tiger Susan writes >Harlem in Havana was written specifically for the VG-8 and I think it works beautifully (with >the help of the brilliant Brian Blade) ... Yes, some tracks do work brilliantly with the VG-8, it's just that so much of Joni's early work was acoustically based that we do tend to miss that aspect of her work. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Van Diemans Land ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:38:26 -0600 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: NEW TO DIGEST I'm new to the Digest but a lifelong Joni fan. Saw her at Yasgur's farm, (Day in the Garden), and again at College Park Md. last year, (couldn't sit through Dylan after hearing Joni and her great band) and I'll never be the same.....truly magical. Ordered one of Sue McNamara's pics for my brother's Christmas gift last year, and it's proudly displayed on his wall. Thanks Sue. Persuing the various posts, I'd like to chime in to say that as a musician, I too think S+L is her greatest accomplishment, although the entire body of work is just amazing. In particular the work of Jaco, Brecker and Metheny is very special on that record, (a desert island album) and I'd love to see her collaborate with Michael and Pat again, (maybe even some kind of tribute to Jaco). I once read an interview w/ Robben Ford who was quoted as saying that of all the musicians he's worked with in the past, Joni is the one he would love to record with again.... that would also be way cool.....Robben may be the best blues guitarist on the planet. Thanks, Dave Fairall Baltimore MD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:06:47 EST From: Siqwomb@aol.com Subject: How To Be Fabulous (JC and BC--book content) Hi List! I work at Barnes and Noble, and as I was walking through the Health books aisle, I happened to see Joni's face peering out at me!! Now, I don't know if this has been posted yet, since I'm "too busy being free" most of the time to keep up with the list as I should....but there is a book, called "Feel Fabulous Forever", with Joni's face in the upper left hand corner of the cover, and if you open it up to page 226, there is a full-page enlargement of the same pic to introduce the section on "How To Be Fabulous". How appropriate!!! I don't know if the book is worth buying just for the Joni pic, and I don't know if the book is worth buying, period-- (now that's good bookselling at work right there!! hee-hee) but it's worth a good quick look. That picture of Joni sure brightened up my day, and, yes, she is FABULOUS (as if we didn't already know)!!!! Back under my rock, Laura the Womb Queen P.S. In my journey through B&N one day at work, I also noticed "The Joni Mitchell Companion", part of a series that also covers the likes of Bob Dylan and Madonna, etc. That book I did buy, and it WAS worth it (although you probably already know about that, too). :-P ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:17:35 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine In a message dated 1/28/2000 3:30:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, FredNow@aol.com writes: << Actually, for me Joni has *always* used her voice as an instrument right from the beginning, both figuratively and literally, as in her exquisite, spine-tingling, soul-shivering "flute" solo on I Don't Know Where I Stand. -Fred >> Well I am glad somebody finally spoke up about that! Thanks you Fred!!! The only reason why I really like Joni when I was 13 because she could really sing....of course the words were spellbinding but so was the vocal! She is an amazing woman then now always!! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 23:06:45 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: $35 BSN?! Louis Lynch wrote: >>Sorry, but at $35 for the boxed BSN set, Joni's work is NOT cheaply >>distributed. That amount would feed some families for a month, you know Hey, where can you get BSN ltd. for $35?! I'm down! - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 23:10:50 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: broad brush Martin Giles wrote: >>I was thinking about what Fred was saying a couple of day ago, when he >>demolished all the output of the famous composers from three centuries. Whoa, Nellie! It wasn't me, it was Roman! I defended all those composers. Dude, please be careful wading through the quotes of quoted quotes. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:29:11 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: VG-8 Info Colin wrote: "Is this VG8 thing why TTT sounds so odd and all the tracks sound similar? I listened to TTT this afternoon and I noticed this for the first time-that they all sound similar. The tracks also sound as if they are echoing(NO it is not my hifi). There is also this twanging sound going thru most tracks.What is a VG8? A synth of some sort?" Colin- This VG-8 thing is actually capable of sounding totally different on every patch. It depends on HOW you program it. When I spoke to Gary the other day about the first times he got together with Joni, he said she asked for the certain colors and was quite happy with the way they sounded. He also said that someone had warned him NOT to program any chorus (a pretty effect) or reverb or echo on her patches, which of course he did anyway. She played the NOJHF the first time with it and it had all of these strange sounds. It totally freaked the sound guy out as well as quite a bit of the audience (including my Mrs.) I LOVED IT! It was SO wild SO Joni! As other players who have played my VG-8 can verify, my programming aims at getting close to the sound of her guitar on the original recording. Acoustic sounds with and without effects, electric guitars with distortion, or whatever. This machine is a modeler, so it is designed to emulate all kinds of guitar sounds including 12 string guitars, dobro, I even have some dulcimer patches. There is also the ability to do synthy sounding stuff like on Harlem in Havana. My thought are, this is the way she wants it to sound right now and when she decides to change it she does. That's one of the main reasons I love her. Her ability to change and come up with different colors for the songs is so great. For instance I love the Led Zep-y kinda version of Banquet she did on the Refuge of the Roads video. I saw her do that live in Baton Rouge. Hope this helps. Later Michael P.S. You know you you might try ringing up a music stor over there in jolly old England and ask them if they have a Roland VG-8 in stock and go over and see one in person and perhaps take it on a test drive. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:36:49 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: More VG-8 102 Sue wrote: "The Roland VG-8 is a synthesizer that allows Joni to store all her tunings on a hard drive so the strings of her guitar are always tuned the same but by programming the synthesizer she can make it sound like it's in one of her 60 odd tunings (this saves her a lot of time by not having to re-tune all the time). Another feature of the VG-8 is there are different "colors" or sound textures that can be programmed. For example, the Harlem in Havana "color" is called Crystal. There is also a "color" called Acoustic Guitar but no matter how you program the VG-8 it will always have an electronic sound to it. Are there any VG-8 players out there who would like to elaborate? I've never had the privilege of playing one." Sue you have the gist of it, BUT IT IS NOT REALLY A GUITAR SYNTH! It is a modeler and that means that they analyse the sound of say an acoustic guitar and write the code for over 22,000 parameters to make it sound like that Martin D whatever or Strat or Telecaster or Les Paul. You then can choose (within the unit as part of the patch) a guitar amp and speaker combination to go with your guitar. Then you can add effects, tunings of course, you can name the patch say Song To Sharon, etc. I could play you many of the sounds I have programmed onto a tape and play it for you and you would not be able to tell it was all the same guitar. BTW I am offering free lessons on VG-8 to anyone who comes to JoniFest2000 in New Orleans. More exciting news coming soon about the fest in May (and no it won't be Carly Simon). Have a great weekend. Michael NP-500 Miles High-Flora Purim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 23:45:13 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: VG-8 Info In a message dated 1/28/00 10:31:23 PM US Central Standard Time, michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: << my programming aims at getting close to the sound of her guitar on the original recording. >> Michael's work on the VG8 was SO wonderful, he inspired me to perform at Jonifest 2000 in New Orleans. His set at Ashara's was INCREDIBLE!! I was bawling like a baby and couldn't even look at another JMDL'er, I was so moved. Those of you who have heard it know what I'm talking about...Joni herself says that she loves to hear a male voice sing her songs, and Paz is one of the best!! Bob Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:48:03 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Walk down Memory Lane Alan wrote: "Yes, some tracks do work brilliantly with the VG-8, it's just that so much of Joni's early work was acoustically based that we do tend to miss that aspect of her work." Hi Alan- Suggest you get out Song To A Seagull, Blue, For the Roses, and Clouds and you won't have to miss those colours any more. And just wait till you hear BSN. I have been in tears for days (all by myself) A Case of You is positively gorgeous. I don't recall a song that has stirred so much emotion in me, but then these are bittersweet times we are in. I think my heart's in San Fransisco tonight. Michael ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #37 ******************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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