From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #35 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, January 27 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 035 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: More about Applause Applause [FredNow@aol.com] Re: BSN ["rick novosel" ] Re: Wally's Letter; request ["Eric Taylor" ] Van Land (with some Bob, Joni and Wally content) ["Kakki" ] Re: A Happy Memory [Deb Messling ] Re: Companion in Canada? [Kathleen Kajioka ] Thank you, Wally [dsk ] Wally's Message 1/25/00 [ZZScotty@aol.com] Re: Joni's magical voice [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Wally's letter [Susan McNamara ] RE: BSN [Louis Lynch ] Emily's Request [Leslie Mixon ] Information about Saskatoon date needed SOON! ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: BSN [Alan Larson ] Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine. [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Both Sides Now review ["Matthew Hall" ] Re: Joni's voice [catman ] Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine. [catman ] Re: BSN [catman ] Re: BSN [catman ] Beaten into Submission ["Russell Bowden" ] Fav. Live Album & Dylan [john low ] RE: BSN [Louis Lynch ] RE: BSN ["Eric Taylor" ] Fwd: Dear Wally ["David Greenspoon" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 03:23:22 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: More about Applause Applause Roman wrote: >>Listen, lemme tell you something about classical music - The Romantic >> (mainly post 1870 stuff) is good. REALLY good And the sacred and >>early stuff from the middle ages up to the Renaissance is also GOOD. >>REALLY good. In fact anything before Bach or after Wagner (The Ring >>guy)or thereabouts is cool. WAY COOL! But you can keep all that >>pretentious shit from the two or three hundred years in between and >>shove it back down the toilet. Why? Because that was the period >>when music was only for the rich. Roman, you're making your point with too broad a brush, which throws a lot of beautiful babies out with the bathwater, if I may mix my metaphors. It's true that the rich, royalty, and the church *paid for* a lot of classical music but that doesn't in any way mean that that's who the music was written for. In fact, many of the greatest composers of that era were also great scam artists, taking the money and then writing their own hearts. Their patrons loved it, and weren't any the wiser for it. You can't listen to the achingly beautiful 2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th symphony and tell me that it was written for rich people, or that it doesn't express some of the most profound human longing ever encoded into music. And what about his iconoclastic late string quartets? Shunned by his patrons! May I suggest that you go back and listen again to Joni's song The Judgement Of the Moon And The Stars. Frankly, to dismiss the entire era of Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Chopin, Schubert, Schumann, etc. in this manner is dangerously indiscriminate. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 00:22:45 -0800 From: "rick novosel" Subject: Re: BSN Fred writes with trepidation: > I don't > think Joni is writing anywhere near as well as she once did ... I'm sorry, I > know this is heresy, bordering on blasphemy. > I'm sorry ... I really am ... I feel somehow horrible for having admitted > this. The thing is, this doesn't diminish my love and admiration for her > earlier work in the least. Relax, Fred, you're not the only one to hold this opinion. The last Joni album that I can listen to with unreserved pleasure is WTRF. The newer stuff just doesn't move me or grab me. In a concerted effort to really try to fall in love with TTT, I've played it four times in the last three days, once with headphones on. I do like it a bit better but it's still fairly low on my playlist. On the other hand, I also think she > has become a first rate jazz singer as evidenced by her performance on Herbie > Hancock's album, Gershwin's World. I'd rather hear her sing some really great > songs, including hers, than the unmemorable stuff she's been writing. We may be banished to a darker corner than the Dylan detractors for these postings;) Rick, looking for his three-legged stool and dunce cap. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 04:08:49 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Wally's Letter; request Emily requested: << ....could someone copy and paste the letter from wally that's up on the site and send it to me? privately, if you wish -- or maybe someone could just post it to the list? it's irritating, i know...i wonder if i'm the only one with email but no internet access...(and my friends with office jobs are SO sick and tired of my "can you just check one thing for me on the joni web site?" >> Not at all irritating, Emile! Actually I wanted to post Wally's latest letter earlier tonight but chickened out. Thank you for this opportunity! E.T. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A Message to My Friends I feel that I know many of you well enough to send this personal message out. As a matter of fact, I do know many of you well enough. I've avoided this for as long as I can, but I'm afraid it's time to say goodbye. I've tried just about every treatment there is to try, so the focus has shifted to keeping as comfortable as possible. I'm getting weaker, finally too weak to devote the necessary energy to JoniMitchell.com. I won't try to describe the effect Joni's music and life have had on me -- I'd just get tangled up in my own words. (I think many of you understand already.) I can definitely say that creating JoniMitchell.com has contributed greatly to my well-being in recent years as I've fought this disease. I've always tried to keep us Joni fans together by developing content that enhances our collective experience and appreciation of a person I firmly believe to be one of the great artists of our time. I've tried always to separate honest fact from chatter. I feel lucky and honored to have lived during a time when it was possible for a "regular guy" like me to feel that he'd helped create a community to promote an artist. Joni has given us so much, and I wanted to do what I could to give something back to her. I hope my efforts have met with at least some success. My heartfelt thanks go out to the long list of very special people who helped contribute to JoniMitchell.com's success. Your feedback and friendship have often served as a well of inspiration. I also want to thank everyone who has reached out to me with messages of encouragement and support over the course of my illness. The generosity of your kind words has helped to light up many a dark moment, and restored my confidence in the human spirit. Finally, thank you, Joni. I love you. My longtime friend Jim, who many of you know or have corresponded with, has often assisted me with design, text and image editing over the years. He knows me and what I want for the site well enough to continue in the spirit I feel for JoniMitchell.com (he's a huge Joni fan, needless to say). Jim will be running the site for the forseeable future, assisted by a few other friends I've worked with over the years. He's spending most of his time taking care of me right now, but you'll hear from him soon. It's been my great joy and privilege to bring JoniMitchell.com to the Internet community. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for the love you've sent my way. I wish you music, happiness and fulfillment in your lives, and I hope we meet again! All My Love, Wally P.S. I'm now receiving e-mail at JoniMessages@aol.com instead of the old e-mail address. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 01:37:52 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Van Land (with some Bob, Joni and Wally content) Synchronities abounding. I went to the Van show at the Art Deco landmark Wiltern Theater last night with an old friend, Paul. (Paul joined some of us at Bob-Joni-Van here in '98 and instantly went into Vanfanaticism) There was a Van-list pre-gathering before the show at the neo-deco Atlas Bar and Restaurant annexed to the Wiltern and I was curious to meet some of them. They are a distinct group but it felt very different than a Joni-list gathering. They all seemed much more shy-reserved and quiet-cool than our bunch, but after a few libations, they did become fairly verbal, articulate and quietly opinionated and intense. Maybe they take a bit after their muse. (In contrast, our Joni bunch seems much more demonstrably effusive, passionate, chatty and eclectic so there might be something to taking after "muses" ;-) My friend Paul was embarrassing me right and left by introducing me to everyone as "all over the Joni list." I felt like a dork! But everyone immediately launched into thoroughly knowledgeable conversation about Joni at the '98 SoCal concerts, and their, uh, opinions on Mr. Dylan (not complimentary ;-) Most all loved seeing Joni touring with Bob and Van and were apologizing that Van took up too much time at the Anaheim Pond, causing Joni to be cut short and run off the stage to make room for The Bob at that show. One guy, John, instantly asked me "How is Wally?" I asked him with surprise if he was on the Joni list and he said, "No, but I regularly check Wally's website and have been following his condition - his story is so amazing." John also went on at length about Joni's stunning performance of "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" at the SoCal shows. I told him about the new BSN album and he was very excited about it. Another fun guy, who boasted proudly about being such a young Van fan at age 30, asked me why was I so into Joni because she never tours and Van tours all the time (like I can get so many more musical experiences for my fandom by taking up with the Van ;-D All of them seemed slightly perturbed when they learned it was the Joni group, and not them, who got to hang out with Van at the Bel Air Hotel after the UCLA shows. It was like "Why didn't *we* think of that?!" Needless to say Van put on a great show. I wore a neo-retro, olive green wool suit to the concert and couldn't believe it when I saw Van come out in his own neo-retro, olive green wool suit. Except he had the hat to match ;-) The show was relatively short with no real encore, which left some of the hardcore disappointed. But it was such a beautiful and really perfect show, that I didn't mind. Many of us commented that we'd never seen Van in such a happy, loose and lighthearted mood. He did the most amazing, almost scat-like version of Moondance I've ever heard. He also brought out the legendary skiffle king Lonnie Donegan in the middle of the show - the two of them played guitar and sang "Midnight Special", "Sloop John B" and "Frankie and Johnny." The highest points for me besides "Moondance" were 1) Van singing the most soulful "All In The Game" I have *ever* heard, and 2) an absolutely surrealistically angelic "Tupelo Honey." I've never much cared for "Tupelo" until last night when it seemed I was hearing it for the very first time. The crowd: Passionate and stomping throughout with one woman who yelled out at least three times during the show "I LUH-HUVVV YOU VAN!" The drink: No martinis allowed - Jameson's (with a lot of ice) all the way ;-) Celeb sighting: Just Brooke Shields with some girlfriends hanging out at Atlas. Most touching stage Van stage chatter for me: "I'm having such a good time - I haven't been this high since '66 at the Whiskey A Go Go." And it seemed like he really did mean it. Kakki NP: Van - All In The Game ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:03:22 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: Live recordings vs. Would that be an explanation? I listened again last night, and its the higher notes that go flat, while being fine in the lower register. atb, Martin. "Mark T. Domyancich" wrote: > > I'll have to check the liner notes to see what instrument Tom is > playing, but it may be a bass clarinet. > > At 8:46 PM +0000 1/26/00, Martin Giles wrote: > >Is it only me, or is there something wrong with the clarinet's tuning, > >or intonation on For Free? I love that version of the song, but > >something about the tuning in the clarinet always bothers me. Sorry. > > Mark Domyancich > Harpua@revealed.net > http://home.revealed.net/Harpua ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:28:44 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: A Happy Memory Believe it or not, there's a Joni-related Tampax story I heard. Some DJ ran into Graham Nash and Joni Mitchell on the street, and Joni was running into the drugstore. The DJ was into Joni and started to go in after her, but Graham held him back because, it turned out, she was buying Tampax and he didn't want her to be embarassed. So to distract the DJ he started to tell the DJ about this album he was working on with two other guys (CSN of course). At 11:06 PM 1/26/00 -0800, you wrote: >A few days ago I posted about hearing Rickie Lee Jones' voice on a TV >commerical about Kotex. With the recent full red moon, I thought I'd >continue the menstrual thread. Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ I love cats. They give the home a heartbeat. - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:12:23 -0500 From: Kathleen Kajioka Subject: Re: Companion in Canada? Hi guys-- for those of you in toronto, I found the Joni Mitchell companion at Book City on Bloor (at Bathurst). Enjoy. Kathleen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:16:11 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Thank you, Wally Dear Wally, Have no doubt about your legacy. I'll never think of Joni finding her family without also thinking of you. I'll never think about my renewed enthusiasm for Joni's music, going far beyond the "oh, she has another CD? yeah, I guess I'll buy it" to "I can't wait!!!", without thinking of you. I'll never forget the excitement of her West coast tour and your reports about each concert that enabled me to share in the experience. I'll never look at Joni's paintings on BSN without thinking of you telling her you preferred them to photographs, that the paintings make her work more personal. I'll never forget my amazement and joy at finding another person, and through your site an entire group of people, who also knows about the magic of Joni. Like many others here, my first search on the internet was on "Joni Mitchell", and I was so excited about finding your site that I printed out page after page (even jeopardizing my freelance job), because surely this treasure would disappear. It didn't, and it won't, and since then I've spent many happy hours wandering around there. I thank you so much for this. And when I go to the Reprise site now, it gives me such a tickle and a smile when your site for Joni pops up. The slick advertisement sites for most of the other artists can't begin to compare to the beauty, richness and from-the-heartness of yours. Seeing the familiar purple and red and again making the frame/no frame choice truly feels like a little tickle in the ribs. I hope it gives you pleasure too. You've given much joy to this world, Wally, in a way that the circles from the stone thrown in the pond will never be stopped by any shore. Your farewell now makes me very sad, but it is not the end of your story. Energy--your love, your life--is never lost, but only transformed. I pray that you're not in pain and that you feel comforted by friends, family, Joni's music and the love of the worldwide community that you've created and nurtured. It's a legacy to be immodestly and extraordinarily proud of and I thank you for your unending generosity. Peace be with you, Wally, forever. Love, Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:53:10 EST From: ZZScotty@aol.com Subject: Wally's Message 1/25/00 Emily Kirk Gray asked: "i have a request -- could someone copy and paste the letter from wally that's up on the site and send it to me? privately, if you wish -- or maybe someone could just post it to the list?" Wally's Message - 1/25/00 A Message to My Friends I feel that I know many of you well enough to send this personal message out. As a matter of fact, I do know many of you well enough. I've avoided this for as long as I can, but I'm afraid it's time to say goodbye. I've tried just about every treatment there is to try, so the focus has shifted to keeping as comfortable as possible. I'm getting weaker, finally too weak to devote the necessary energy to JoniMitchell.com. I won't try to describe the effect Joni's music and life have had on me -- I'd just get tangled up in my own words. (I think many of you understand already.) I can definitely say that creating JoniMitchell.com has contributed greatly to my well-being in recent years as I've fought this disease. I've always tried to keep us Joni fans together by developing content that enhances our collective experience and appreciation of a person I firmly believe to be one of the great artists of our time. I've tried always to separate honest fact from chatter. I feel lucky and honored to have lived during a time when it was possible for a "regular guy" like me to feel that he'd helped create a community to promote an artist. Joni has given us so much, and I wanted to do what I could to give something back to her. I hope my efforts have met with at least some success. My heartfelt thanks go out to the long list of very special people who helped contribute to JoniMitchell.com's success. Your feedback and friendship have often served as a well of inspiration. I also want to thank everyone who has reached out to me with messages of encouragement and support over the course of my illness. The generosity of your kind words has helped to light up many a dark moment, and restored my confidence in the human spirit. Finally, thank you, Joni. I love you. My longtime friend Jim, who many of you know or have corresponded with, has often assisted me with design, text and image editing over the years. He knows me and what I want for the site well enough to continue in the spirit I feel for JoniMitchell.com (he's a huge Joni fan, needless to say). Jim will be running the site for the forseeable future, assisted by a few other friends I've worked with over the years. He's spending most of his time taking care of me right now, but you'll hear from him soon. It's been my great joy and privilege to bring JoniMitchell.com to the Internet community. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for the love you've sent my way. I wish you music, happiness and fulfillment in your lives, and I hope we meet again! All My Love, Wally P.S. I'm now receiving e-mail at JoniMessages@aol.com instead of the old e-mail address. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:00:56 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni's magical voice Bounced Message wrote: > From: Relayer211@aol.com > Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:48:30 EST > > Many singers have beautiful voices.Karen Carpenter,Judy > Collins,Barbra Streisand(Though she is too un.subtle for me),Aretha > Franklin,Roberta Flack ect...but there is something unique and magical about > Joni's voice that I don't hear in any other singer.I'm not sure what it > is,maybe it's her canadian accent. Her phrasing has become impeccable, like the singers that she most emulates, Billie Holiday and Edith Piaf. np: Shawn Colvin - Steady On ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:12:45 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Wally's letter There are a lot of wonderful letters to Wally coming through the list. Please remember to send a copy of your letter to this address if you want Wally to read it: JoniMessages@aol.com I think at this point he is too ill to read the JMDL. Jim reads all these letters to him and I know that they really mean a lot to Wally and to his friends who are taking care of him. Sue >I tearfully just got through reading the letter Wally wrote on his (yes his) >website. I'll never think of it as the Joni Mitchell homepage. To me it is >and will always be Wally's webpage. And Wally, you say it's time to say >good-bye, well I say see you later. I know Jim and the others will continue >to run *your* website with the love and knowledge that you've shown them. >You also say that hope your efforts have met with at least some success. >Well, let me tell you "that is the biggest understatement in history"!!! >There is not one person on this earth with a bigger heart, and that has given >so much to a community than you. > >I know that Joni loves you too! I love you, and so does a million people >around the world. > >Peace and Love to You, >Jimmy ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:49:52 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: BSN Fred wrote: I don't think Joni is writing anywhere near as well as she once did ... No need to apologize, Fred. We're all entitled to our opinions. And, if it means anything to you, I don't think Taming the Tiger contains Joni's best writing. In fact, "Face Lift" and "Stay in Touch" sound sort of rambling to me, not nearly as well crafted as most of her other songs, which are poetic masterpieces. Joni Mitchell has produced some of the wittiest and eloquently complex lyrics I've ever heard, with some of the greatest images, "summer colored skin," "sittin' on my groceries," "slick black cellophane," "red sun... rolling over a grey sky." When I produced my first CD of original songs, I was scared stupid about it. Not only was I worried that people would not like my singing or my playing, I was terrified that they would think my words are dumb! There will always be critics (and they're almost as bad as relatives). Not everyone will like everything you do. And not every work can be a masterpieces, or there would be no masterpieces. Hearing Catman say he doesn't like Joni's singing (fie!) or your comments about her writing is actually encouraging. I mean, after all, if someone dares not like my ultimate idol, then I suppose I should learn to handle criticism a little better, too. Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:04:36 -0800 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Emily's Request A Message to My Friends I feel that I know many of you well enough to send this personal message out. As a matter of fact, I do know many of you well enough. I've avoided this for as long as I can, but I'm afraid it's time to say goodbye. I've tried just about every treatment there is to try, so the focus has shifted to keeping as comfortable as possible. I'm getting weaker, finally too weak to devote the necessary energy to JoniMitchell.com. I won't try to describe the effect Joni's music and life have had on me - -- I'd just get tangled up in my own words. (I think many of you understand already.) I can definitely say that creating JoniMitchell.com has contributed greatly to my well-being in recent years as I've fought this disease. I've always tried to keep us Joni fans together by developing content that enhances our collective experience and appreciation of a person I firmly believe to be one of the great artists of our time. I've tried always to separate honest fact from chatter. I feel lucky and honored to have lived during a time when it was possible for a "regular guy" like me to feel that he'd helped create a community to promote an artist. Joni has given us so much, and I wanted to do what I could to give something back to her. I hope my efforts have met with at least some success. My heartfelt thanks go out to the long list of very special people who helped contribute to JoniMitchell.com's success. Your feedback and friendship have often served as a well of inspiration. I also want to thank everyone who has reached out to me with messages of encouragement and support over the course of my illness. The generosity of your kind words has helped to light up many a dark moment, and restored my confidence in the human spirit. Finally, thank you, Joni. I love you. My longtime friend Jim, who many of you know or have corresponded with, has often assisted me with design, text and image editing over the years. He knows me and what I want for the site well enough to continue in the spirit I feel for JoniMitchell.com (he's a huge Joni fan, needless to say). Jim will be running the site for the forseeable future, assisted by a few other friends I've worked with over the years. He's spending most of his time taking care of me right now, but you'll hear from him soon. It's been my great joy and privilege to bring JoniMitchell.com to the Internet community. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for the love you've sent my way. I wish you music, happiness and fulfillment in your lives, and I hope we meet again! All My Love, Wally P.S. I'm now receiving e-mail at JoniMessages@aol.com instead of the old e-mail address. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:44:21 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Information about Saskatoon date needed SOON! Does anyone happen to know the exact DATE and DAY of Joni's exhibition of paintings in Saskatoon this spring or summer? I vaguely remember Evian posting that it was tentatively scheduled for June. Has a definite date been chosen? I need to make other travel plans, probably by the end of today, which will necessarily take into account whether I will be attending this exhibition. Any help anyone can give me will be *greatly* appreciated! Mary P. "NP": Thoughts and the very best of wishes for Wally ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:02:00 EST From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: Information about Saskatoon date needed SOON! In a message dated 1/27/2000 10:54:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, PitassiM@WEAC.org writes: << Does anyone happen to know the exact DATE and DAY of Joni's exhibition of paintings in Saskatoon this spring or summer? I vaguely remember Evian posting that it was tentatively scheduled for June. Has a definite date been chosen? I need to make other travel plans, probably by the end of today, which will necessarily take into account whether I will be attending this exhibition. Any help anyone can give me will be *greatly* appreciated! Mary P. >> This was posted as few days ago (the latest update as far as I know): Hey JMDLers I went to the Mendel Art Gallery's web site last night and found a link to their communications director whom I immediately emailed re: the possible Joni Exhibit. And the rumoured show is a rumour no more. The only info she was able to give me right now is that the show will run June 30 to September 3 and to write back later in the spring for more details. The gallery"s web site is: http://www.mendel.saskatoon.sk.ca. Look for the small link at the bottom of the page to contact the comm director. Apparently there is huge interest being shown across Canada. I'm fantasizing a large JMDL presence on opening night (me included) and, of course, Joni reigning supreme over all attending.:) Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:14:21 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: BSN In a message dated 1/27/2000 3:27:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, rnsc@direct.ca writes: << Relax, Fred, you're not the only one to hold this opinion. The last Joni album that I can listen to with unreserved pleasure is WTRF. The newer stuff just doesn't move me or grab me. In a concerted effort to really try to fall in love with TTT, I've played it four times in the last three days, once with headphones on. I do like it a bit better but it's still fairly low on my playlist. >> Although I am not CRAZY over TTT, TI was AMAZING!! Alright you guys,,,have you forgotten this incredible record?!?! Each song is deep and tell such a picturesque story. It is in my top 5 (five) FIVE!!! You need to sit down and relisten to THAT CD!(((go on right now..sit down...now and .... ((((( l i s t e n!!!))))) ;o) Catgirl >^..^< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:46:36 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine. Catman, and others, have worried about Joni being able to handle "singer's songs" on BSN. I think this betrays an underlying misunderstanding about what that term actually means. It's not as if the material on BSN is technically challenging, or will push Joni beyond her vocal range or strength. These songs are "singer's songs" because they are incredibly EASY to sing -- in fact, most of them are so well composed that folks like you or I can sing them, and sound good - -- or better certainly -- than if we attempted to sing "Night In the City" for example. Listen to Gershwin's World, From There To Here or Stormy Weather -- yes Joni sounds mature, because she is, and wise, because she is -- and full of genuine emotion tempered by hard experience, which she definitely is. No my friends, this one's going to be beautiful. Mark my words. Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:55:37 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Joni's voice Catman stuck his head in the noose again.. > I am dreading this release really. I just can't imagine Joni being able > to sing these songs. I don't see Joni as a singer, rather as a > songwriter at which she excels. maybe years ago she could sing but > judging my TTT and PWWAM she can't anymore. Not that it matters. The > last time she sang and sounded like she could was on WTRF, IMO. To me > certainly on NRH TI and TTT her voice really suits the work. I just > can't imagine her singing singers songs. I really disagree Colin. I know her range is not what it was, but I was never too keen on the high pitched ornamentation that she used to go in for anyway. Her voice has so much character to it now (it's the smoking I'm sure). It's not the pure, pretty thing that it used to be, it scratches and pops like her guitar playing, but that's why I love it so much. And there's no doubt about her pitching - she's always spot on. It's a bit like the difference between a child's and an adult's face; The child's face is pure and smooth, but as the years go by it gathers lines and the skin changes, and a more complex and characterful beauty evolves. Just my 0.2€ worth. atb, Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:13:23 +0000 From: Alan Larson Subject: Re: BSN > In my canon, her first nine studio albums assure > her place as one of the bona fide geniuses of all time. > > -Fred I agree totally Fred. I think her coming out with these songs now shows us that even she regrets to some degree her change in song writing genre. She loves those old songs more than she has let on, but just didn't want it to seem like she was "leaning" on her early successes. IMHO She HAS grown as an artist, and that's a good thing. And who knows? Maybe she will yet write another BSN or Circle Game or Urge for Going. Blasphemers unite... for better or worse... sorry! It's totally possible that I'm just a curmudgeon, stuck with the likes of Joni and JT, Bruce C and David W, Jim Croce and early Elton, JC Young and Phil Ochs, forever... Their music crescendoed in my soul at a time when the world was falling down around me, and the impact of that can never be fully measured. So analagous to how we all seem to like best the FIRST joni album we ever heard. I also think often about how much an amateur musician's musical preferences are influenced by the songs that he is in the right space to learn, meaning which songs he can figure out and learn. I know that was critical for me. I wish I had been at some of those early Joni musical events. That would have been heaven. alan in ames ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:17:02 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine. Don said: <> But, singing the *notes* and singing the *heart* of these standards are two different things...Joni can do both, most of us can do at least one, and some can do neither! ;~) And I concur, I'm starting to get a good feel for this one in the marketplace... Bob NP: Steve Miller, "My Dark Hour" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:28:19 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: Both Sides Now review Hello everyone I have mailed a couple of times before, about a UK fanzine that I'm putting together which is based around a number of artists including Joni. Both Sides Now isn't available here yet, but I was wondering if one of you would be able to review it for me. That would be fantastic. Also if anyone is interested in contributing anything then please mail me. Thanks Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:33:35 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine. >Don said: > ><"singer's songs" because they are incredibly EASY to >sing -- in fact, most of them are so well composed >that folks like you or I can sing them, and sound good>> > >Then Bob said: >But, singing the *notes* and singing the *heart* of these standards are >two different things...Joni can do both, most of us can do at least one, >and some can do neither! ;~) > When I listen to singer's like Billie Holliday and Ella Fitzgerald, I don't really think of listening to just a singer. These are talented musicians who use their voices as another instrument in the band. There are Miles Davis solos then there are Ella scat jams...this is what separates the schlock from the jazz as far as I'm concerned. I feel Joni's singing started taking on this instrumental quality around the time of Mingus (could be earlier with some stuff on Hissing of Summer Lawns) but she has definitely used her voice (smoking keyloids and all) to get the most emotion from a song. Sweet Sucker Dance is killer for this, IMHO. Take care, Sue PS I've been wanting to use keyloids in a sentence since the first time I heard Talk to Me! yippee! ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:21:09 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine. > > But, singing the *notes* and singing the *heart* of > these standards are two different things... My point precisely -- with not much to worry about hitting the "notes", Joni will be free to unleash her devastating "heart" on every track -- like I said, I think we're in for what Pauline Kael once called "a three hanky weeper." Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:39:46 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Joni Songwriting Okay heretics -- here's a word-UP: Joni Mitchell has forgotten more about songwriting than you or I will ever know. That being said, do I think that TTT is up there on the lyrical Fujita scale with, say "Hejira" or HOSL? Nope -- not at all. But the songs on TTT are not about the words so much as they are about texture -- by Joni's own admission, which is plenty good enough for me. Her interesting take on using the lyrics for "sound" instead of "meaning", and then fitting that sound into the orchestral fabric of the music is something few, if any, have even dared attempt in songwriting, let alone accomplish as well as Joni does on TTT. Joni Mitchell took conventional lyric writing into uncharted waters from her first release, and then pushed the envelope as far as even she could go -- and nobody's come within fifteen light years of her since. Consider that effort a done deal. So naturally, just as she questioned standard tuning of a guitar all those years ago, on TTTT she's questioning rhymed iambic pentameter as a lyrical form, and moving beyond it -- most effectively on "Harlem In Havana", and probably least effectively on "No Apologies." See, even I can be critical ;-) It's not listening to TTT *repeatedly*, as much as listening to it *differently* that will yield an appreciation of the daring in the songwriting -- a daring, I say again, only Joni is capable of. Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:59:15 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni's voice > > > I really disagree Colin. I know her range is not what it was, but I was > never too keen on the high pitched ornamentation that she used to go in > for anyway. > > Her voice has so much character to it now (it's the smoking I'm sure). > It's not the pure, pretty thing that it used to be, it scratches and > pops like her guitar playing, but that's why I love it so much. And > there's no doubt about her pitching - she's always spot on. As I have said many times before, I prefer Joni's voice on DED, NRH, TI and TTT and HOSL than her earlier work. But even in her earlier work, I just can't 'hear' her singing songs such as Carly or Judy G did. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:59:21 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: "Singer's Songs" -- why Joan will be just fine. Don Rowe wrote: > Catman, and others, have worried about Joni being able > to handle "singer's songs" on BSN. I think this > betrays an underlying misunderstanding about what that > term actually means. Well it obviously mean something different to you than it does to me. To me a singersd song is something that needs to be sung by a person with a good voice. Like the partner of Niel tennant inThe Pet Shop Boys, who said he had told Neil NOT to record 'somewhere' from WSS because it was a singer's song and in his opion Neil can't song like that. He was right!However, I merely said I was dreading it cos in my imagination, I can't hear it. Hopefully the cd will prove me wrong. > I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:59:51 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: BSN I don't agree here at all! I love DED NRH and TI, i think they are amongst her best work. Along with HOSL. I guess these, with STAS are my faves. TTT has grown on me too. There are quite a few tracks on NRH such as Slouching, CL, The Windfall, that are just superb. And on TI Job's Sad Song is outstanding, along with SK, ML, and the title track. From DED TTGS and TF are brilliant. All these albums have tracks I don't like but not HOSL or STAS-I like all of them. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:59:45 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: BSN Eric Taylor wrote: > Catman opined: > > << I am dreading this release really. I just can't imagine Joni being able > to sing these songs. I don't see Joni as a singer, rather as a songwriter at > which she excels. maybe years ago she could sing but judging my TTT and > PWWAM she can't anymore. Not that it matters. The last time she sang and > sounded like she could was on WTRF, IMO. To me certainly on NRH TI and TTT > her voice really suits the work. I just can't imagine her singing singers > songs. >> > > I removed NJC from the subject line because this is definitely JC IMO. > Catman has shared this sorry sentiment before & I can't disagree more! Tha's alright but I am not sorry for my opinion! > Like most great singers Joni's voice has become richer & subtler over > the years. When I listen to Judy or Barbra Judy and Barb get mentioned a lotin this relation. Beats me as to why. i don't like either voice. Weedy. > or Joni in their early years the > pure perfection of the singing can actually get on my nerves after a while. > Especially Barbra! I have friends who can't tolerate Joni's early soprano > but get into her later works. To me Joni's voice sounds best on Turbulent > Indigo (Last Chance Lost in particular No this is the one song I really dislike on TI. It grates on me. i always skip it. > ). The silky edge & feeling phrasing > of her recent vocals surpasses Billie Holliday's entire career! & if Comes > Love from PWWAM is any indication, BSN will be up there with Barbra's > Broadway, Carly's Torch & Judy's Carnegie Hall comeback. It just occurred to me you meant garland and not Collins. I like garland's voice. > Since you also don't like Mingus, Catman, perhaps it's not Joni's voice > that you don't like. I suspect you just don't have an ear for great jazz. I don't like Jazz. You know, like Bob and others, i do wish you would not put words in my mouth(or my emails)!!! No where have I said I do not like Joni's voice. if I didn't like her voice, i wouldn't have all her albums!I said that I cannot imagine her being able to sing 'singers' songs. That is NOT the equivalent of saying I don't like her voice. I happen to rteally like a woman named Amanda Lear who sounds like a mannish Dietrich but I still like her voice. > ;~* > E.T. > NP: Last Chance Lost > P.S. As this was playing my partner June stuck her head in the door & > said: *Now those are the songs of her's I like.* BTW, June considers Joni's > pre-Hejira albums *country music.* > > __________________________________________ > NetZero - Defenders of the Free World > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:00:38 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: BSN > > > Hearing Catman say he doesn't like Joni's singing (fie!) Dorothy Rowe says that most trouble in the world is down to people interpreting what they see.I repost what iw rote. Nowhere did I say i did not like Joni's voice. I am dreading this release really. I just can't imagine Joni being able to sing these songs. I don't see Joni as a singer, rather as a songwriter at which she excels. maybe years ago she could sing but judging my TTT and PWWAM she can't anymore. Not that it matters. The last time she sang and sounded like she could was on WTRF, IMO. To me certainly on NRH TI and TTT her voice really suits the work. I just can't imagine her singing singers songs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:37:28 PST From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Beaten into Submission Gang, After reading the many posts regarding S&L, and what a boob (my words) I am for not having it...I will take the plunge.. I wish I had the opportunity to view it first, but being TV and VCR-less won't allow THAT anytime soon. Next CD purchase, for sure. Now I want it really bad! Love, Russ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:43:28 +1000 From: john low Subject: Fav. Live Album & Dylan My favourite 'live' album is "Bob Dylan Live 1966: the 'Royal Albert Hall' Concert (The Bootleg Series Vol.4)". I've long taken the view that appreciating Bob Dylan is something akin to experiencing a revelation. There are some who get it and others who don't. If the Dylan 'doubters' are not convinced by this album they never will be. No use sending them to the corner, Les. It just won't work! :-) John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:45:51 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: BSN Catman, Sorry if you thought I misquoted you. Actually, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. In your post, you said "I just can't imagine Joni being able to sing these songs. I don't see Joni as a singer, rather as a songwriter at which she excels." Regardless of what Dorothy Rowe says about misinterpretation, in the music business, when you say someone is "not a singer," it means that you don't like to hear the person sing. To me, your comment that she's UNABLE (see below) to sing is a stronger put-down than saying you don't like her voice. For example, I would choose having simultaneous enemas and root canals over having to listen to an entire Gloria Estefan recording -- I just don't like the sound of her voice. But she is ABLE to sing. And, in her maturing years, Joni is ABLE to sing -- better than ever, in fact. She's all that, and a free dessert sundae. I know of a few people who don't particularly care for Joni's stylization. But her voice is beautiful, her pitch is excellent, and her articulation unmatched in popular music today. Better to say you don't like Joni's voice of late than to say she can't sing. She's made it to the top of the modern music heap, singing all the way. So, she IS indeed able to sing. And, as a professional singer, I think she's qualified to take a crack at "singer's songs." I love her take on "Comes Love." It's absolutely the best I've ever heard. All discussion aside, Catman, I hope you are totally thrilled by the new album -- and that it will be the most pleasant of surprises for you. Harper Lou Nowhere did I say i did not like Joni's voice. I am dreading this release really. I just can't imagine Joni being able to sing these songs. I don't see Joni as a singer, rather as a songwriter at which she excels. maybe years ago she could sing but judging my TTT and PWWAM she can't anymore. Not that it matters. The last time she sang and sounded like she could was on WTRF, IMO. To me certainly on NRH TI and TTT her voice really suits the work. I just can't imagine her singing singers songs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:39:45 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: RE: BSN Harper Lou admits: <<....I don't think Taming the Tiger contains Joni's best writing. In fact, "Face Lift" and "Stay in Touch" sound sort of rambling to me, not nearly as well crafted as most of her other songs, which are poetic masterpieces. >> Critics called Hejira's vocals & lyrics *rambling* when it was released. 20 years later Hejira is hailed as Joni's masterpiece. *We're burning brightly / Clinging like fire to fuel / I'm grinning like a fool* is as great as anything Joni has penned. Another line I love from TTT: *Every disc / A poker chip / Every song / Just a one-night stand / Formula music / Girlie guile! / Genuine junkfood / For juveniles!* HOW TRUE (& creatively stated) of today's top 40! E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:47:53 PST From: "David Greenspoon" Subject: Fwd: Dear Wally I just thought i'd share with the group the E-mail I sent to Wally: Dear Wally, Although I never got to know you at all, I felt I did through the articles you wrote in the "Word from Wally". I was obvioulsy very saddened by the article you wrote on the 25th. Not just because you won't be running JM.com but more importantly to here the treatments aren't working. I can't begin to describe how your website changed my life. The site you created changed me from a casual Joni fancier to a hard core Joni Lover. So I would like to take this moment to thank you Wally, for bringing Joni into my thought life in ways I couldn't before imagine. I hope and pray that you get better Wally. Forever Yours David ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #35 ******************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?