From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #250 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, November 2 1999 Volume 01 : Number 250 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Dreaming of Real Freedom [Julian51469@aol.com] Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) ["P. Henry" ] Re: "racial slurs" ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Eric Anderson ["P. Henry" ] Re: "racial slurs" [catman ] Re: Racial Slurs [catman ] Julian's Joni's Jazz #3 [Julian51469@aol.com] Grace.... [Julian51469@aol.com] Re: Urge for going - an enigma ["Alan Larson" ] RE: Urge for going (guitar chords) - [very long] [Anne Sandstrom ] RE: Eric Anderson [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) [Howard Wright ] Joni's guitar transcriptions [Les Irvin ] Re: Racial Slurs ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: "racial slurs" ["Catherine McKay" ] Millenium Countdown (6 Degrees) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Patricia Barber again... [Les Irvin ] Michael McDermott Shubas 11/3/99 ["Peter Holmstedt" ] Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs (long) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: tape trees, DAT, and catch up.... first post [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs [CaTGirl627@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:02:34 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Dreaming of Real Freedom Emily, This is so cool! First off, have you ever heard of "dreaming for others"? and.. Secondly, this all dovetails into the whole "tarbaby - great white wonder" thing... I've already said my peace/piece on the issue but you have condensed my whole argument into a beautiful surrealistic suprise birthday gift of a subconscience awakening - that is: your dream is IT! and... Thirdly, art is an advertisement for peace (Yoko Ono) because it offends the senses and demands emotion, thought, and movement of spirit (me). Thanks Julian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 00:43:11 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) Mark wrote: >I personally did not try them because I know that the one transcribed in the Hits songbook (and therefore, the song that was put on Hits) is correct...> *mark, how do you know this? and, for that matter, what would it hurt to just give it a try? do you really think I'm lying to you? what would I have to gain? >We have heard Joni tune up to standard tuning (EADGBe - can we at least agree that THAT is standard tuning!?!? :-D) when she played this song live.> *perhaps I am at fault for not being real good at communicating... (I said I am lousy at tabs... can't even read them, much less write them) to clarify, what I am referring to by using the term 'drop D' is DADGBE... so that only the lower E is tuned down to D. if, say, she were in DGDGBD tuning on the previous song and then tuned up to this, she would tune the first five strings to standard and leave the 6th string untouched as it would already be tuned to D. is it at all possible that this could be what you saw? >I know many people have noted that the transcriptions in the Hits and Misses songbooks are incorrect in many places...> *now this really mystifies me... how can you know this and defend it as 'correct' at the same time??? >By the way, Pat, how did you get the chords that you posted here? If you haven't played guitar in 25 years, then what makes you say that Howard and the Hits transcription are wrong?> *again, I'm totally mystified! to answer your question, 'how I got the chords I posted here' was sitting about 3ft from Joni, watching her fingers listening to her instructions and imitating what she showed me herself, with her intentionally leading me through each chord change, stopping to let me try them and telling me if I got it right. that's 'how I got them'! as far as how I am so sure about this after 25yrs, as I said, my hands remember... Pat writes again: (actually it was howard who wrote:) > "As I remember, the tuning is given as standard, and the book's version for this song looked and sounded fine to me." > (and *then* 'pat writes':) >as I have stated emphatically more than once, this song was not written in standard tuning but with a drop D. I'm not lying.> and then you wrote: >I may have to listen to the song again to hear that drop D> *good idea... I'm not sure but I believe Joni also personally taught it to Tom Rush also and, if I remember correctly, on close listen, one can hear the drop/slack D clearly on his recording... also I can hear it on Joni's recording as well. the logic of this statement that 'that's how it is in the songbook' totally escapes me. *most* of Joni's compositions are erroneously printed in songbooks with chords written in standard tunings! however, I must be honest here and admit that, on going back and listening a little more closely myself after I wrote that post to howard, it does sound like there are other chords in there... on the other hand this could be attributed to Joni's rather intricate picking. as you mentioned, we know that this song was originally recorded for Blue back in '71 and I find it unlikely that it was change much since '68 when I last heard her do it. (exactly as I've described, btw) >-did we come to the conclusion that there is still a capo on the third fret? In that case, it would be an F you would hear.> *it could be that she used a capo back then but I never did. as any guitarist knows, a capo merely allows one to play open chord 'shapes'(?) in a different position, usually to accommodate vocal range. I just know that the chords I posted are the ones she taught me, and, if need be, could be played capoed on the 8th fret. and... >"pat's chords are no doubt fine for playing the version of Urge that Joni showed him, but to play the *recorded* version, you need different chords. The ones from the Hits songbook or the ones on the jmdl site are fine for this."> >I'm sorry howard, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. it seems that, in a very carefully worded way, you are attempting to cast doubt upon the authenticity of my post. if so, you're just gonna shoot yourself in the foot and all I can say is the proof is in the pudding. *play it* and see! the way she wrote it is the way she taught it to me and it's the same way she plays it on the '*recorded*' version! if you recall I originally made my post in response to listers who'd told me that they didn't play this song because the chords they had for it didn't sound right... so I posted the right ones. I may not be able to communicate 'chord shapes' like you and others can but I can play this song exactly as it was written. isn't that what you want?> >Howard has been transcribing songs for years now, and in my opinion his works are extremely correct. I think we should note again that Joni has played songs differently from time to time, and in the case of UFG, both the alternate Blue and Hits have the same version.> *ok, mark... I give! I have to admit that you make a good point regarding Joni changing songs at times and her capacity for variety and, in fact, that it's certainly *possible* that the song was changed and I can't deny that. however I think you could both make your points without inferring that I am lying... unless that *is* your point. I know I am blunt and that some find my style irritating but this saddens me because, believe it or not, I have the highest respect for both howard and yourself and your considerable contributions to JMDL and I hope you will also consider that that's all I'm trying to do as well... contribute. that said, the fact, which you've conceded is that some fairly accomplished players of Joni's music have been unable to get a good playing of this rather simple melody by utilizing the chords as they have been transcribed... fact two is that 32yrs ago in the back room of a small club in Michigan, Joni took her time to teach me exactly how to play what she always referred to as her personal favorite song and those are the exact chords I posted and I know they work. I trust that your first concern is the people on this list and presenting quality material for them to share and so I shall leave it up to you and howard and the rest of the guitar tab authorities to determine what to do about these facts, but I don't wish to argue the point further. I have done my best to share what I was given... that's all I can do. it amazes me but it certainly seems that you do not want what I have to offer at all. oh well, guess I should have just kept my mouth shut. pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 22:18:51 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: "racial slurs" Bob wrote: >To repeat a pet peeve, it's why I hate to hear "niggaz" used so commonly on >rap records...it becomes acceptable with usage, like we all seem to agree, >racism is learned, and what better way to learn language than to hear it >repeatedly... I've been following this thread with interest, and couldn't resist adding my two cents worth ;o) It's brought to mind a movie I saw ages ago - one of those "Back to the Future" type movies - I can't remember exactly which movie it was but it had someone going back in time 30 years (in the US) to the 50's from the 80's. This person called an African-American "black" and was hassled for it because it was so offensive, and was told to say "negro". They replied "You'll be calling yourself "black" in 30 years - and "negro" will be offensive!" My point (finally) is that certain terms change in meaning and inference over time, but it's the delivery or context that matters. Vince said: "There is a world of difference between two African-Americans using the term "nigger" with each other and a white person saying it to a black person." I agree in part. One of my best friends is part-Maori. I call him "boonga", and he calls me "white trash". It's not disrespectful, it's not hurtful, it's said totally in jest, between two people who respect each other immensely. I would never dream of saying something like this to anyone else, and I would never say it (to my friend) in a way that would be hurtful. And two African-American's can still use the term "nigger" with each other in a derogatory, and nasty way - I've seen it on Jerry Springer! Like I said, it's all in the delivery. Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 01:41:20 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Eric Anderson steve wrote: >Two of his songs, Thirsty Boots and Violets of Dawn, are true classics> Thirsty Boots was one of my favorites from the first hearing... reminded me of a Tom Paxton style. I learned it through an issue of Sing Out! during the time when they used to include a small ep pull-out recording by the composers of the featured sheet music in that issue. I performed it in my sets from then on. pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:40:31 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: "racial slurs" Apart from food, i have no idea what 'cracker' means. Oh, here it is used to descibe something good'oh he she it is a cracker'. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:40:41 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Racial Slurs > > > I'd suggest that if Joni believed that (that she knows what > African Americans feel), she was wrong, and it's arrogant of her to claim > that sort of community with them. exactly what i thought. We can only imagine being in someone's shoes. we can never actually wear them. > > > --David - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:58:42 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Julian's Joni's Jazz #3 Julian’s Joni’s Jazz Part Three ...and then Chaka Khan graces the stage and addresses Joni directly, "See how many people love you." She then lets us in on the fact that Joni is her mentor ("Oh wow." says someone) and that "she tells girls who think they’re singers to go and get a Joni Mitchell record, say Hejira, harmonize with that sucker." Well, I’m then led into a funked-up take on "Don’t Interrupt the Sorrow," one of my all time favorite Joni tunes. I smile, and the sun smiles back at me. First the horns nail the opening two notes, then Vernon Reid takes me up and down a tight staircase of a guitar scale, the organ peals out of the starting gate, and then the band is off and running. Her royal highness, Ms. Khan, seems to channel the spirit of Anima with her growls, croons, wails and proclamations. I can hear Aretha coming through the vibes, as well...demanding respect. The band turns into Chaka’s chariot, and her high notes are spears and arrows of absolute truth and wisdom. She breaks it all down to "Queen of queens" repeated over and over ‘till it all fades into the horizon. I’m left with perma-grin and start giggling when I hear the master of ceremonies say very quickly, "Chakakhan, Chakakhan....I’ve waited all my life to say it like that. Chakakhan." After a good long giggle I sang to myself, "I feel for you ‘coz I think I love you..." At this point in the show the soft spoken Eric Anderson greets the crowd. He tells us that he has a dilemma with the song that he’s about to sing. Should it be: "...the pleasure I’m gonna have watching your hairline recede my vain darling"....or should it be, "...watching my hairline recede my vain darling." I chuckle a little at the problems facing the baby boomer generation these days (remember when it was real issues?). From the crowd around me I hear someone singing the line in a clear sweet voice as if a twenty-something Joni doppleganger had appeared out of nowhere. There is an appreciative applause for this ghost-of-Joni-past and then Eric gets on with the gig at hand. The band kicks in with a perfect ‘74 swing in to "Just Like This Train." Somehow the weather of the ages had smoothed out Eric Anderson’s voice. At first I was yearning to hear a more melodious vocal styling - something more along the lines of what I’m used to hear ing since the band had such and L.A. Express feel going on, but I soon got used to a simpler male voice. The whole tune took on a dusty, wandering, road weary, lazy cowboy feel. Christina and Sheryl swooped through with their angelic harmonies to lift this sunburnt goucho in his saddle. I found myself riding off into yet another sunset. Joy Askew then introduces Joe Jackson. Whoah doggies! As Mr. Jackson caresses the ivories, my ears are reminded of skating away on rivers, through shades of blue, across paprika plains. He invokes the long gone days of Joni at her piano that nowadays is too big and overwhelming for her. Joy’s voice cuts through my smoke and rose mirrors with the sharp lines of "Down to You." I catch myself weeping as the yearning and passion of her voice pull at my heartstrings. I turn to look in the mirrored window of a skyscraper to look at my reflection. Behind me, across the street, a beggar is shaking his Styrofoam cup for change, and then a stretch limousine pulls up to next to me and blocks my view and the song then transforms into "A Case of You." The crowd pulls me out of my feelings of pity and disgust with their applause for what is one of my all time favorite songs by anyone. The quiet whispers of a thousand voices in the crowd join Joy in singing this unofficial anthem to love and Canada (where I had just come from spending my honeymoon, no less). Ms. Askew’s voice then spirals and pirouettes into the stratosphere on the last note of "you" that sends shivers throughout my whole body. Joe then takes us back into the haunting realms of "Down to You." When the last notes have subsided ("Oh wow." says some stunned someone) I have to pull off the headphones and compose myself. Joe and Joy’s bitterswee dance is still throbbing in my head and heart. I too say my much needed, "Wow!", and then the perma-grin kicks back in and the headphones go back on. (This edition is brought to you by Jerry Notaro and his computa' wizardry...thanks again.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:25:33 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Grace.... Hello there Vince, All I can say is that your post was increadibly moving. I saved it into my JMDL Archives. It took courage and grace to act as you did and say the things you said. Thank you. Julian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:15:43 -0800 From: "Alan Larson" Subject: Re: Urge for going - an enigma I must say, Pat, that I am confused. Considering that Joni took so many years to put UFG on a recording, and that it's not on her list for her upcoming orchestrated standards CD, HOW COULD IT HAVE "ALWAYS BEEN ONE OF HER FAVORITES"? I know it is one of mine, both lyrically and musically. And it's potential for harmony is unparalleled. JT wrote "ain't no song in this whole wide world, I can't sing some harmony..." but this song makes it easy. And I really do wish summer would hang around for just another month or two. If I could ask a favor: Does anyone have the full song lyrics with chord "shapes"? Is it on the guitar tab site? alan@isunet.net -- vaguely envious of Pat's learning of this song from Joni ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:37:56 -0500 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: Urge for going (guitar chords) - [very long] OK, so if you're not into music theory or don't play guitar, you can leave the room...and press delete I played both the version on the JMDL guitar site and Pat's version both with and without JM's and TR's recordings. The version on the JMDL site is as good an approximation as one gets to what Joni plays on the recorded version. Pat's version is remarkably like Tom Rush's version. Interesting. (EXCEPT I have no idea why you'd drop the E to D - you don't need to at all!) From a previous post: <> I just happened to hear TR say the other day that she did in fact teach it to him (he was on the local radio station, promoting an upcoming concert). And, as I stated, there's no drop D on either recording. My theory? Joni may have played a version way back when that was much more like the TR version. A few corrections/comments: What Pat refers to as Amaj7 is in fact just an A (what makes the Fmaj7 a maj7 is the added E, which is, of course, the 5th of an A - so you lose the maj7. Likewise, what's written as a Gmaj7 is a G6 - with the E being the 6th of a G. (sorry I think someone else posted this earlier) <<"The chords for the recorded version (from the "Hits" CD) of the chorus are essentially: G D A and I get the urge for going ... pat wrote them as: C D Amaj7 So the version Joni showed him must have been different.">> Pat wrote<< again, I would ask... did you try these chords. if those are the chords in the Hits songbook, I wonder where they, whoever they are, got them. they're wrong, plain and simple. furthermore, if played along with the Hits CD, the chords I posted are exactly what she plays... she never changed this song.>> Pat, I don't know what you're hearing, but the chords as you wrote them don't work. They're not what either TR or JM play. How do I know? My ear - which is actually remarkably good (not bragging - there's lots of stuff I'm not good at... but I've figured out guitar pieces as difficult as Pierre Bensusan's Nice Feeling completely and accurately by ear - to know how intricate that is, ask Les I...) There's a place in the verse where Pat's version has the chords played in reverse order - instead of D C, he lists them as C D. This doesn't work. The melody note that punctuates the line is an F#. Playing a C with an F# melody doesn't work, but playing a D (since F# is the third) does. <<"There are accurate chords and tablature for the Hits Cd version of Urge available from the Hits songbook." who says they are accurate? you can go back through songbook after songbook and find gobs of Joni's songs chorded innaccurately, mostly because the publishers didn't know what to do with tunings.>> This brings me to my final point. It's not a criticism - just an observation. Joni plays and writes in 'shapes.' I'm surprised at the number of postings on the JMDL guitar site that list chords. I think of all you posters doing all that math. Why? That's not how she plays. (Sorry if I'm sounding preachy here, but I KNOW this - not from first hand experience like Pat, but just from breathing her music for so long...) To really play inside her head, you have to throw away the letters and numbers, don't think in chords or keys. Think in shapes and colors and textures. Sound weird? Well, that how she does it. It always amazed me that someone took the time to write out lead sheets and standard chords for Joni's songs, then published them, when it was like translating from one language to another one with fewer, less interesting words. Something invariably gets lost. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:32:19 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Urge for going - an enigma > >If I could ask a favor: Does anyone have the full song lyrics with chord >"shapes"? Is it on the guitar tab site? > >alan@isunet.net -- vaguely envious of Pat's learning of this song from Joni Vaguely!!! I'm sick with the GREEN MONSTER!! What a beautiful memory to have. She must have been ethereally gorgeous in those days with an energy that infected you like a potion! The Urge for Going tab is at the JMDL Guitar site at this URL: www.jmdl.com/guitar/ When you get to the site, click on the HITS album picture and Urge is the first song. In the interest of spreading the art of Joni Mitchell, I designed the Joni Mitchell Guitar Site with one mission: For guitarists to share their interpretations of Joni's craft. In my opinion, there are many different ways people enjoy playing her songs: e.g., in Joni's way, in their own way, and for beginners, the simplest way possible. We are all at varying degrees of guitar prowess and I designed the site so everyone can share and grow from learning from the master. I invite anyone with suggestions about the site to email guitar@jmdl.com We also welcome all tabs for consideration. take care, Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:58:14 -0500 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: Eric Anderson A few years ago, I was with a bunch of other songwriters - we went to see Eric Andersen at Passim in Harvard Square. Well, we went to the Border Cafe across the street afterwards. It seemed everyone scattered, leaving only Eric, Geoff Bartley and me standing at the bar. Geoff saw someone he had to talk to, so he asked if I'd mind talking to Eric for a few minutes. (I thought 'are you kidding? this is the guy whose album cover (Blue River) I drooled over in high school!) so we talked for most of that evening and the next one (long story, I won't bore you with how I wound up back in Harvard Sq. the next night). We talked about his twin boys a lot, his life in Norway, and some sort of philosophical stuff. He drank a lot of tequila. Interesting person. (Kakki, I think he's the original Forest Gump of the music scens! 'fraid you're probably a close second :-) Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:03:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, P. Henry wrote: > howard, > > I am, however, somewhat confused by your comments in reference to the > "Hits CD version" and the published chords. can I ask a question? did > you try the chords I posted? of the few songs Joni taught me, I have > never seen any of them faithfully represented in any songbook. > I may not be able to articulate tab as well as you and I seriously > doubt that few can and it's true that memory fails sometimes when it > comes to cognitive facts, but I assure you, my hands remember. What your hands remember is not in dispute - my suggestion was that you were taught to play the song *one* way, and the recorded version that appears on the Hits CD is *another* way to play the song. The fact that Joni re-arranged or reinterpreted the song between showing it to you and actually recording it wouldn't be that surprising would it? I'm just trying to clarify things here - and I think the reason we are talking about different chords is that we are talking about distinctly different versions of the song. Or maybe you don't agree? If you have access to the recorded version (e.g from the Hits CD, or the sound snippet from Wally's site) maybe you can confirm for us - does this sound different to the version you were shown? I would guess so, but would like to hear your view. I didn't try the chords you posted - because I have tried the chords in the Hits songbook, and like Mark, I found them to match what I hear on the Hits version of the song. That's not to say the chords published in the songbooks are necessarily right - far from it! - but in this case, they work just fine. > if those are the > chords in the Hits songbook, I wonder where they, whoever they are, got > them. they're wrong, plain and simple. furthermore, if played along with > the Hits CD, the chords I posted are exactly what she plays... she never > changed this song. This I can't agree with. For example, in the second hald of the verse, e.g for the lines "When the sun turns traitor cold, and all the trees are shivering ...", you wrote the chords as: C D C D Listening to the clip of the recorded version from Hits, the chords are clearly D C D C. Also, in the chorus, for the lines "And I get the urge for going, when the meadow grass is turning brown ...", you wrote: C D Amaj7 C D Amaj7 (where, if I understood right, your Amaj7 would be: x07650) The recorded version is definitely: G D A G D A (with G = 320003, D = xx0232, A = x02220, with occasional variations on the A shape) If you listen to the Hits Cd or the snippet on Wally's site, I don't think there is any question of this. But this doesn't alter the fact that the chords you wrote surely were right for the version of the song Joni taught you. This is the important point (aplogies - I keep repeating myself!) - there are different versions of the song. I don't know why you say "Joni never changed the song" - are you sure? She certainly changed chords for others (e.g early versions of Little Green are different to the Blue version). > *play it* and see! the way she wrote it is the way she taught it to me > and it's the same way she plays it on the '*recorded*' version! My only real question is, are you sure the version you were taught is the same as the version on the Hits CD? Have you heard the Hits CD version? If not, head for the SOUNDS section on Wally's site - there is a snippet there. I am pretty sure the version you were shown is different to the recorded version - the chords you wrote don't match the Hits version. One other thing - was the low E string the one that Joni tuned down to D when she taught you the song? If so, in which chords did Joni use the low D string? Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:09:18 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Joni's guitar transcriptions At 07:37 AM 11/2/1999 , Anne wrote: >Joni plays and writes in 'shapes.' I'm surprised at the number >of postings on the JMDL guitar site that list chords. I think of all you >posters doing all that math. Why? That's not how she plays. ... To really >play inside >her head, you have to throw away the letters and numbers, don't think in >chords or keys. Think in shapes and colors and textures. Sound weird? Well, >that how she does it. It always amazed me that someone took the time to >write out lead sheets and standard chords for Joni's songs, then published >them, when it was like translating from one language to another one with >fewer, less interesting words. Something invariably gets lost. Anne, this is an excellent point. I remember first seeing Joni's music written out years ago and thinking that she must be this brilliant genius at writing intricate chord structures and music theory. Later, I read that Joni cannot even read music! This paradox was striking and, I think, proves your point that Joni's playing is a "different language" than what it translates to on the printed musical page. Not that there isn't a validity and a necessity to seeing it on paper - how else will most people be able to begin to learn her music? But to look at the printed music as the product of "Joni's creation" I think misses the whole point. Joni seems to create her music through a visual process much as she does a painting. I would bet that Joni finds these transcriptions of her music quite foreign and not a real part of her creation at all. Excellent point Anne! Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 19:46:41 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Racial Slurs Scott, you said this so well that I wish I had written it myself. Duality is a constant theme running through Joni's work, whether it's the duality between man and woman, black and white, rich and poor, sacred and profane, or whatever else. It's a particularly dominant theme throughout DJRD as well. I find it impossible to conceive of Joni as being anti-anyone. As has been mentioned by others, even when she slags "lawyers and loan sharks", I highly doubt she's referring to ALL of them (at least in the lawyer case - has anyone ever met a "nice" loan shark? Well OK, the banks - they pretend to be on your side, while charging outrageous service fees and providing little or no interest unless you happen to have more money invested than the average joe will likely ever see - you could call them loan sharks!) Interesting the different views people have of who the "tar baby" and the "Great White Wonder" are supposed to be. A lot of people have suggested that Joni herself is the GWW and the "tar baby" is a black man she may be about to have an affair with. I tended to see them as two men, middle-aged or older, who have met in this tropical location and find themselves talking things over, over a glass of rum. The white guy is thinking of the black guy as the "tar baby", while the black guy is thinking of the white guy (sarcastically, of course) as "The great white wonder". They both think they know a lot about each other and, as they talk, they realize they don't know as much as they thought they did. There may be hope for lines of communication opening up between these two who were previously set in their ways of thinking about the "other". Then again, maybe it's just the rum. Maybe they're both Joni. The other thing is, the picture on the cover of Joni-as-black-man saying "Mooslems, heh-heh-heh", confused me. I couldn't conceive of her as being in any way racist or anti-Moslem or whatever, so the conclusion I came to is - - it's yet another case of duality. This guy (Joni) is having a lot of yucks about the fact that people (the Florida ones this time, in Otis and Marlena) are out for fun and sun while Muslims stick up Washington. They're not sure who these people are, they may or may not be Muslims, or Arabs, or some "foreigners", and aren't even sure how to pronounce it - is it Mooz-lems or Muz-lems It reminds me of people who say "Eye-talian" for "Italian". I think it may be a commentary on how ignorant we can all be of what's going around us, to the point where we couldn't even be bothered to find out the proper pronunciation of a name. (?) Just a thought. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:32:27 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: "racial slurs" Helen said: "One of my best friends is part-Maori. I call him "boonga", and he calls me "white trash". It's not disrespectful, it's not hurtful, it's said totally in jest, between two people who respect each other immensely. I would never dream of saying something like this to anyone else, and I would never say it (to my friend) in a way that would be hurtful." Jeez, Helen, you've got to be really careful with this. I know what you're talking about, but someone else, hearing you two talking that way, might be the one to take offense at it. If it occurs in the workplace and a third party hears it, you could end up with a grievance or a human rights issue on your hands. I only say that because a similar situation happened to me. I don't want to go into a lot of detail about it, but two female workers I was managing used to call each other names like "bitch" and so on. They were good friends and meant nothing by it. Unfortunately, another person in the office overheard this and interpreted it the "wrong" way (which really shouldn't surprise anyone because, let's face it, people shouldn't be using this kind of language, even in jest). When that particular third party was laid off (she was a temp and I was running a call centre, where we often had to hire people in a hurry to handle projects, and then lay them off as the calls began to die down - all those hired were aware they could be there for a few days, a week, or a few months), she began to make all sorts of allegations about the way the place was run, that people were using racist/sexist language and so on. I never even knew that kind of talk was going on until this other person made a stink over it (she also tried to claim that she was laid off due to racism - she wasn't white, but then, neither were half the other people who worked there), homophobia (because another guy who was laid off at the same time was gay) and I don't know what else (because a third one, laid off at the same time) was white and straight, so what the alleged discrimination was there, I really don't know. In retrospect, I think this person was just going through a really rough time in her life, because she wasn't trying to sue anyone, there was no financial motive for her to do what she did, she didn't want her job back, and she had taken full advantage of having us pay her taxi fare back and forth because she was working a late shift. There were other indications that she wasn't totally stable. Having said that, I'll tell you what I told the two women who were calling each other names: I understand you don't "mean" anything by it, but it wasn't professional and doesn't go down well in a work environment. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't talk this way with your friend, provided you both understand it the same way - but just be very careful of who else might be listening. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:54:06 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Millenium Countdown (6 Degrees) Penny gave us the latest list, these are the ones that I came up with, I'll leave the rest to whoever: Indigo Girls: Cover "Tangled Up in Blue" by Dylan (Have they done a Joni cover? seems like they have done A Case of You, but I'm not sure) Ella Fitzgerald: Has recorded Summertime which Joni has done also (Hers is on The Porgy & Bess Songbook with Louis Armstrong) Creedence: This one's just for fun...Springsteen's covered Fogerty's "Who'll Stop the Rain" in concert, Nils Lofgren was/is in Bruce's band , Nils does a cover of Randy Newman's "Baltimore" on his "Nils" solo LP, Randy Newman also wrote "Mama Told Me Not to Come" which is sampled on PM Dawn's "Jesus Wept" CD...PM Dawn played at Joni's Jazz. (Not the shortest route, but one with a couple of fun turns anyway). Prince: Wendy & Lisa have recorded with both Prince & Joni. (Forget the Joni track off the top of my head, from CMIARS or DED I'm sure...) Steely Dan: Michael McDonald sings backup on a couple of Dan tracks, and also with Joni on "Good Friends". The Who: They cover the old R&B chestnut "Don't Do It", also covered by The Band on "Rock of Ages". Joni appears with The Band on "The Last Waltz". Michael Jackson: Performs "The Girl Is Mine" with Sir Paul, who produces JT's first LP on Apple. James Brown: Thanks to the Tape Trees, I know that the Godfather of Soul (from SC no less)also covers "How Do you Stop" (interestingly, I heard this cover JUST this morning while dubbing TT's for my buddy John Calimee) I'll leave Zappa and The Police for whoever wants 'em... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 15:46:24 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Patricia Barber again... This little excerpt is from an interview with Patricia Barber on Barnes and Noble's website: B&N: ...who were primary references? Patricia: At one point I'd say pop musicians. Joni Mitchell comes to mind. Les - still carrying the PB torch... NP: Patricia Barber "Cafe Blue" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 23:40:44 +0100 From: "Peter Holmstedt" Subject: Michael McDermott Shubas 11/3/99 Michael McDermott has a very big show tomorrow night at Shuba's in Chicago. Shubas is located at the corner of Belmont and Southport. This will be A Live Broadcast on the Internet around the world! The Chicago Tribunes' MetroMix will broadcast the show on the internet and record the show for a future live recording! Tickets are only $7 and the doors open at 9pm and Michael will go on at 10PM SHARP! Please pass this on to anyone you might think would be interested. Thanks for your time and support. THIS SHOW WILL BE ONE OF HIS BEST EVER! HE IS PUMPED! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:16:47 EST From: Kleronomos@aol.com Subject: tape trees, DAT, and catch up.... first post I just recently returned to the list after an absence of about a year. Looking forward to catching up on the lastest buzz on the true artist, and of getting to know some of you. I would appreciate an email or a posted response from anyone who can tell me how to become involved in a tape tree for unreleased Joni music / concerts. I just got a DAT machine, and would like to receive DAT clones, and provide cassette tapes..... however the tree operates. Also, I was wondering how the gathering went (I forget where exactly it was to be... New England, somewhere, I think.... ). It was going to be held at the home of one of the list members. It sounded like it was going to be a great time. Thanks! DanH ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 19:47:23 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) In a message dated 11/2/1999 3:46:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: << that said, the fact, which you've conceded is that some fairly accomplished players of Joni's music have been unable to get a good playing of this rather simple melody by utilizing the chords as they have been transcribed. >> Here ye, here ye! May I interrupt? When I first learned this song, when Hits came out, I distinctly remember asking the list why it didn't sound right the way it was written in the book. Specifically, the intro does NOT work...when you hear that first low note come in after the delicate picking (which I did figure out, fairly closely). I had wondered if on the recording, she may have over dubbed the second part of the intro with a 2nd track. The simple chords shown in the songbook just do not sound right to me, so I would like to give Pat's chords a try..if he would kindly re-send them to me. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:19:40 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: "racial slurs" At 11:58 PM 11/1/99 -0500, Vince Lavieri wrote: >But: a very big Yes, I am saying its not alright. I'll be blunt: I am part >Polish, part Italian. If one of family or friends calls me a Polack or a wop, I >take it one way. If someone else uses the same term, it is offensive and >derogatory, for they are not a part of the group, they are using a term which >carries a lot of baggage, including prejudice and bigotry. If one of my gay >friends calls me a faggot, that is between us. If a straight person does it, >what I hear is the taunts of the killers of Matthew Shepherd. It depends on >where you are in relationship to the other person. > Why would you want to call a family member or friend a derogatory word?? I don't see any fun in that. What you say here indicates a double standard. People should not use derogatory words ... period :-) Heather ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:28:40 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: "racial slurs" At 10:40 AM 11/2/99 +0000, catman wrote: >Apart from food, i have no idea what 'cracker' means. Oh, here it is used to descibe >something good'oh he she it is a cracker'. > > Well, "cracker" is a racial slur against whites. A Southern US origin, I think. In that case, being a grandmother, I'm a gram-cracker :-D Heather - a very proud grandmother! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 22:23:24 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Suggestion For Branches I've always included photocopied J-cards for cassette boxes when making tapes for my leaves. But regular photocopies are tough to cut correctly. The edge of the J-card is white and so is the inside of the lid of the photocopier. What to do? Try photocopying with a colored poster board background. Here's how: Buy posterboard in any color except yellow. (Photocopiers see yellow *as if* it was white, or d-min to the photographers. Red worked well for me so I didn't try other colors. Go to Kinko's and cut out a rectangle with perfectly square corners. Cut it the size of a regular sheet of paper (In the US, that is 8+1/2 by 11 inches). Other countries, naturally, have different standard sizes. Use "poster tape" to lay out the J-cards on the page-sized colored background. You'll get perfect reproduction of the text but, stop there's more! On the photocopy the label is surrounded by a light grey area. The edges of the label are easily seen and greatly enhance the pleasure of making labels. - -- And so it goes, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** Tolerance, tolerance, tol... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 22:45:08 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Urge for going (guitar chords) In a message dated 11/1/1999 1:12:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: << and finally: "pat's chords are no doubt fine for playing the version of Urge that Joni showed him, but to play the *recorded* version, you need different chords. The ones from the Hits songbook or the ones on the jmdl site are fine for this." I'm sorry howard, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. it seems that, in a very carefully worded way, you are attempting to cast doubt upon the authenticity of my post. if so, you're just gonna shoot yourself in the foot and all I can say is the proof is in the pudding. *play it* and see! the way she wrote it is the way she taught it to me and it's the same way she plays it on the '*recorded*' version! if you recall I originally made my post in response to listers who'd told me that they didn't play this song because the chords they had for it didn't sound right... so I posted the right ones. I may not be able to communicate 'chord shapes' like you and others can but I can play this song exactly as it was written. isn't that what you want? pat >> Hello! Interestingly enough, I just performed this song out for the first time. I don't think Howard was casting doubt just that maybe Joni changed it a little. The later songbooks that have come out starting with Turbulent Indigo show the correct tunings which is so cool. Also the Hits and Misses songbooks both show the correct tunings for all the songs in them. I have been playing Chealsea Morning and can now play along with the LP or an old video of her doing it live! How exciting!!! As long as you have the same outcome the chord choices are just a matter of preference in my opinion.....but to be able to play Joni the way she does is ECSTASY!!!!!! Catgirl....whooo-hooo!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 23:00:19 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Racial Slurs (long) In a message dated 11/1/1999 4:37:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << But we automatically assume that "Great White Wonder" refers to a particular person, don't we? It's not a derogatory name that lots of white people have been called (at least not that I know of). And Magdalene Laundries probably did offend some people, but again, Joni's talking about a specific time and group of people, she's not bashing all Catholics. Even when she writes scornfully about lawyers, which I know from reading posts on this list is offensive to some people, I get the feeling she's referring to very particular lawyers. Joni can be critical, even judgmental, about people, including herself, but she's usually talking about a specific person, about his or her character and behavior, not about being a member of a certain group. >> I think Joni just writes and not to any particular color sex or religion. She just paints with words and music....Do we get offended when she writes about America in DJRD.... Here in Good-All-God-Save-America, Home of the brave and the free, We are all hopelessly oprressed COWARDS, Of some duality, Of restless mulitplicity.... I don't get offended.I think she is being very broad...Frankly, I just love this album. It is one of her bests!! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 23:04:08 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: tape trees, DAT, and catch up.... first post In a message dated 11/2/99 5:20:11 PM US Central Standard Time, Kleronomos@aol.com writes: << I would appreciate an email or a posted response from anyone who can tell me how to become involved in a tape tree for unreleased Joni music / concerts. I just got a DAT machine, and would like to receive DAT clones, and provide cassette tapes..... however the tree operates.>> Howdy Dan, and welcome back! I've got all the tape trees, though none are first generation copies, they seem to work OK - I'll be glad to make you copies of any or all of the 8 tape trees we've had to date. Also, I was wondering how the gathering went (I forget where exactly it was to be... New England, somewhere, I think.... ). It was going to be held at the home of one of the list members. It sounded like it was going to be a great time. >> Well here's the URL, go check it out dude - it rocked! http://www.jmdl.com/gallery/jfne9909.htm Bob NP: Afghan Whigs, "Fountain & Fairfax" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 23:15:29 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Racial Slurs This is a great post! My exact thought but without me making a fool of myself to convey it... Way to go Scott!! Catgirl In a message dated 11/1/1999 8:47:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, sp@olympus.net writes: << This thread has sparked some interesting discussion so I felt like throwing in a few cents' worth. The lyrics in question, from "Dreamland" off DJRD, should not be taken out of context of the song. It's one thing to single out the two words "tar baby" or "white wonder" but we should look at the entire setting before questioning Joni's political-correctness. "Dreamland" IMO is another one of her classic studies of duality. It's about life on a tropical island as opposed to life in Canada during winter. It's about the European explorers Raleigh and Columbus "claiming" this land for the sun-worshipping masses who followed, when it really belongs to the native people. It's about partying and dancing to a samba beat, living life to its fullest, right before nodding off to sleep (dreamland). I think that by this time in her career Joni's interest in black culture had progressed beyond fascination; she felt she understood African Americans enough to really identify with their histories and struggles and related to this so deeply that she donned the makeup and pretended to be black for the album cover. She *assumed* the identity. This was her way of saying "I *know* what you feel...I understand and have this huge empathy..." Being this comfortable with black culture allows her to use a questionable label like tar baby, just as a few of today's black artists use the word "nigger" in some of their songs or in conversation among peers. In this case, "tar baby" provides the perfect contrast, or duality, to the "white wonder" as they enjoy a glass of rum and tacitly share the knowledge of things to come...the visiting hordes, nights of "temptation" and "gambling," after which they fly back, recline buttons down, to six-foot drifts of snow, jobs, kids, everyday life. I don't think Joni meant anything derogatory, explicitly nor implied, when she used these words. They are a result of where she was and how she felt at that time...just like most all of her compositions...they provide vivid images as only she can. Scott >> ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #250 ****************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?