From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #249 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, November 2 1999 Volume 01 : Number 249 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: "racial slurs" ["Kakki" ] Re: Racial Slurs [David Wright ] Re: "racial slurs" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Racial Slurs and DJRD ["Kakki" ] Re: "racial slurs" [David Wright ] No Pony Tails?? [Michael Paz ] Tar Baby & The Great White Wonder ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: "racial slurs" [Vince Lavieri ] 110 Minute Tapes at TRU [mann@chicagonet.net] Re: Racial Slurs [Scott Price ] Message vs the Messenger [Julian51469@aol.com] Thank you for your lucidity [Julian51469@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:19:08 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: "racial slurs" > I think that Joni's use of the term falls into the "Asher Lev" > category. I base that on knowing Joni's life and her whole oeuvre. If > David Duke were to have written the song it would be coming from a very > different place and carry a whole other meaning. Vince - you said all that my tired brain cells could not completely articulate. Thank you for making the point more clearly and consisely. Excellent post. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 21:57:08 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Racial Slurs On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Scott Price wrote: > ...she felt she understood African > Americans enough to really identify with their histories and struggles and > related to this so deeply that she donned the makeup and pretended to be > black for the album cover. She *assumed* the identity. This was her way of > saying "I *know* what you feel..." I'd suggest that if Joni believed that (that she knows what African Americans feel), she was wrong, and it's arrogant of her to claim that sort of community with them. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:59:39 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "racial slurs" In a message dated 11/1/99 8:08:07 PM US Central Standard Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << The term "tar baby" is patently offensive when used by white people - a point of Toni Morrison's book. Any doubt about that : we had the reported testimony here of two African Americans that was shared with us, how much it hurt them. I think it borders on racism to dismiss that testimony with every type of equivocation about it is not really offensive and there are terms for white folks too... yes there are, but racism is racism and get real. >> Firstly I have never used the term "Tar Baby" to describe someone and never will, nor do I use any of the more common racist phraseology - BUT...are you saying it's OK for an artist like Sade or Toni Morrison to use the term and not Joni simply because Joni is white? I disagree wholeheartedly...it's racist to think there is LANGUAGE that one race can use and another can't...it's like saying there's a WATER FOUNTAIN that one race can use and another can't! Isn't it? To repeat a pet peeve, it's why I hate to hear "niggaz" used so commonly on rap records...it becomes acceptable with usage, like we all seem to agree, racism is learned, and what better way to learn language than to hear it repeatedly... And I know that the common argument here is that the usage makes it powerless to the one it's targeted to, and I don't agree with that either...As a Christian, I see us all as children of God anyway... All in all, great input from everyone on this subject - I love getting my head expanded! Bob NP: Aerosmith, "Dream On" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:20:11 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Racial Slurs and DJRD I wrote: >I interpreted "Tar baby and the Great White Wonder talking over a glass of rum, burning on > the inside with the knowledge of things to come" as meaning that the > inequity in social station between the two had lessened enough to where they > could now converse together over a drink, yet both of them burn on the > inside with the cognizance that the inequities of history, (and by > extension, racism) are still far from unresolved. Oh gee, it's a good thing I'm not being graded here (or at least it doesn't count ;-). I meant "still far from solved" or "still unresolved" - that's what comes from overwork and trying to write on my lunch hour! On another note, I went back today and read on the JMDL articles site some of the reviews of the DJRD album from the time when it was released and didn't know whether to laugh or cry! Eiyiyi, it's a miracle Joni kept on creating her music after reading some of the "critics" back then. I suggest the reading for a real cringing, eye-opener of just how grossly misunderstood and unappreciated she has been at times. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:23:21 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: "racial slurs" On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > As a Christian, I see us all as children of God anyway... Yeah, but we're not in heaven yet, Bob. ;) - --David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 22:25:26 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: No Pony Tails?? Mark wrote: "pony tail less" Oh my gawd does this mean that I have to cut mine off too. I am catching up on the digests and I am halfway home. I have missed you guys. Did anyone get a chance to check out our webcast on rollingstone.com yesterday? It really looked and sounded great MOST of the day. A couple of the mixes were pretty bad (like George Clinton). They had their own engineer and it was out of my control. I like the group Train very much and I thought Ben Folds Five was really good. If any of you get a chance to see Kathleen Lague from Nashville, I thought she was really cool. BTW I have been enjoying the geriatric songtitle thread. How about: Shades of Scarlett Carcasses Ray's Dad's Hearse Yvette In Traction You Dream Flat Lines Hope everyone is well. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 23:25:19 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Tar Baby & The Great White Wonder Debra Shea wonders: << What was going on with Joni when she was doing DJRD? >> The fact that she dressed as a very funky black man on the cover should give us a clue. Joni has often commented that she feels like a black man in a white woman's body. We must remember that she paints with words & avoid interpreting her lyrics as personal opinions. Dreamland seems to me an impressionistic vision of the dichotomies Joni saw going on around her & I feel that she captured it with total honesty & beauty. Also remember that it was DJRD that impressed Charles Mingus so much that he chose Joni to put lyrics & melody to his final compositions. Obviously Charley was not offended one bit. We're all just mutts of the planet really. There is no such thing as a purebred. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:58:59 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: "racial slurs" Our good friend Bob wrote: > > > Firstly I have never used the term "Tar Baby" to describe someone and never > will, nor do I use any of the more common racist phraseology - BUT...are you > saying it's OK for an artist like Sade or Toni Morrison to use the term and > not Joni simply because Joni is white? Bob, I and all of us here love ya. So I will answer honestly. IMHO: Yes and no. No, if you read what I said about Potok's Asher Lev and if I communicated my thoughts well. But: a very big Yes, I am saying its not alright. I'll be blunt: I am part Polish, part Italian. If one of family or friends calls me a Polack or a wop, I take it one way. If someone else uses the same term, it is offensive and derogatory, for they are not a part of the group, they are using a term which carries a lot of baggage, including prejudice and bigotry. If one of my gay friends calls me a faggot, that is between us. If a straight person does it, what I hear is the taunts of the killers of Matthew Shepherd. It depends on where you are in relationship to the other person. I personally think the use of the term "niggarz" or whatever spelling by the gangsta rappers is a mistake for it re-introduces the use of the word in common speech where we had tried to expel it. Too many people, especially young white kids, are thinking, if they can say it, why can't I? You can't because of the history, the meaning. There is a world of difference between two African Americans using the term "nigger" with each other and a white person saying to a black person. I suspect that the man who was dragged to his death in Jasper, Texas, heard the term nigger just before he died. Is there one circumstance in which any white person can say that word to a black person? Bob, the only time that I ever hit one of my children is when the older son said the word "nigger." I don't know which one of us were more shocked. It was an unthinking action on my part: it was automatic. We had a long, long talk about that afterwards of course and in my apologies I explained the depth of evil in that word. He understood. I am not proud that even once I hit my son, I am ashamed of that, but there is that little bit that says, my greatest anger with him was not when he talked back to me, but when he defamed someone else. Words have great power. Not all words are interchangeable. Not all people can use all words. There are things that I can never say because it has not been a part of my experience or the words are not true to me and who I am. And it has to with belonging. Can I call you a "cracker"? I suspect you would find that offensive coming from me, perhaps not offensive coming from your best friend. I don't have the right to that word (unless I am eating soup and referring to a bread product) because I do not belong to a group that owns that word. The tar baby story was and is a part of the legend and cultural rationalization, the mythos, of the justification of slavery. It is a very loaded term. Bob, my best to you. I hope I have said what I wanted to say with some coherance. I offfer my thoughts not because I have any wisdom, but because of my own life experience, and because I have great respect and affection for you and I take your question as an honest one, for you are a forthright and good person. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:56:25 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: 110 Minute Tapes at TRU Another place to find 110 Minute Tapes. I was in Toys R Us today and found TDK 110 Minute Tapes Laura ......Freebies below for those interested: There are sweepstakes at this site plus you can get THREE free years of Popular Photography magazine: http://www.mountainzone.com/mymountain/contest/magazines/pop-photography/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Win a Spa Vacation and get a free sample of Colgate Fresh Stripe Toothpaste at: http://www.colgate.com/totalfreshstripe/top.html The answers to the quiz are: 1) All the above 2) True 3) 12 hours ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Noxzema Skin Fitness FREE http://www.noxsport.yourinfohere.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/HelloNox?brand=noxsp&banner=sample&site=fitskin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pick 3 items from this page and get all for $1 Use code C12239 for free shipping http://www.cooking.com/products/shlist.asp?Source=GC&LinkID=54& ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 22:42:22 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Racial Slurs At 09:57 PM 11/1/99 -0500, David Wright wrote: >I'd suggest that if Joni believed that (that she knows what >African Americans feel), she was wrong, and it's arrogant of her to claim >that sort of community with them. I don't know exactly what Joni was thinking, and didn't mean to speak for her in my previous post (just stating my opinion) but she is a very perceptive observer...and reporter (through her art and music) of those observations. Agreed, unless one has walked in *those* shoes, one cannot *fully* comprehend what it's like. But, if one is perceptive, open-minded, and has first-hand experience, can't that person develop a darn good idea of what it's like in those footsteps? Taken to the next level, if this is arrogant and wrongful, then should any of us seek relationships of any kind outside our own races, religions, or orientations, because anyone who wasn't of the same creed or color would only be arrogant if they claimed to be understanding or sympathetic? My anglo father not only understood, I think he even more deeply *felt* what it was like to be a minority than my mother (who was one) did. At the very least, he was more outraged about the injustices she suffered than she was. This is not arrogance. It is goodwill and it is honor and it is love. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:13:02 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Message vs the Messenger MGVal@aol.com said: ...and I'm taking your side. Joni is not here to defend her process so why are we "bashing" her? Why not bash the concept of racism, economic apartheid, and the violence of ignorance and disrespect instead of an absent martyr? The discussion of wether or not the use of "tar baby" comes out of calousness or a desire to paint a picture that demands thought is very cool. The fact is the term exists because of a culture with a history as well as a level of stupidity that allows it to continue to be a two-faced paradox - a cute little children's bedtime story (from pre-literary Africa to Walt Disney) and a derogatary term that has become another way to dehumanize each other. I do believe that Joni has proven herself on so many levels as to her ability to be thoughtful, wise, and having the ability to provoke a healing response...as in: not being afraid to use the word "tar baby." As they say in my country: Joni fuckin' rules, OK?;-) Julian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:47:58 EST From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Thank you for your lucidity Hello Kakki, This post of yours is awsome! Your insight into Joni's layers of metaphor juxtaposed to her culture and the relatively new concept of free speach...straight to the heart of the matter, I tell you. The genius in the classroom has stood up triuphantly and spoken her insight with thundering clarity. < Like it or not, Joni, especially as a "female" artist as recently as the late 70s, could not have easily gotten away with just laying all her perceptions out there, unadulterated, at that time. She still had to write in ciphers to a certain extent.> I am reminded of Joni's explanation on the Club #47 tape (I think it is... Ft. Lauderdale) of the unreleased song "The Way It Is". She had to make the song aloof enough so that the "powers that be" couldn't censor it and clear enough so that she could comiserate, bond, and rise up with the underdog. That Joni, she's so sly and graceful, aint she? This got me to thinking as well....I wonder if any of the Magdelene nuns are still around from "the good old days" and if the stones concealed behind their rosaries have cracked or perhaps have melted because of Joni's "artistic liscence." Thanks again, Julian ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #249 ****************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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