From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #243 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, October 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 243 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Dreamland. Discuss [dsk ] Re: How much, how often? ["Eric Taylor" ] RE: Otis and Marlena - a question [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: How much, how often? [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: Joni's Chrono Lovelives [Ginamu@aol.com] RE: Does Joni influence your life too much? [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: Dreamland. Discuss [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: How much, how often? [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? [Susan McNamara ] Re: How much, how often? ["Catherine McKay" ] RE: how much, how often? [Susan McNamara ] Re: hair & moustaches & O&M [Bounced Message ] Re: Rufus Beer [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #482 [Ladygrammy@aol.com] RE: Joni's Chrono Lovelives ["Catherine McKay" ] A cure for Joni-ism? [Julian51469@aol.com] RE: Otis and Marlena - a question ["Catherine McKay" ] Does Joni influence your life too much?(yeah and I f***kin' love it!) [Ju] Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? [Don Rowe ] Today in Joni History - October 29 [Today in Joni History ] And the wiring in the walls... [Janet Hess ] RE: Does Joni influence your life too much? ["Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Dreamland. Discuss Louis Lynch wrote: > ...I never thought of "Dreamland" as a musing at > all. It seems very real and alive -- a vivid personal experience. It > sounds to me as if she is attending some kind of festival or party, possibly > a Carnival. I think it's a specific experience, too; namely Mardi Gras (called Carnivale?) in Brazil since Joni mentions a samba beat, the Amazon, trade winds from Africa and that it's a long, long way from Canada. "All saints, all sinners shining, heed those trumpets all night long" also makes me think of a Mardi Gras celebration. It would be in February or early March so it would be warm in Brazil (I think) and still snowy in Canada. And, from what I see in TV news reports, the Brazilian celebration is an extremely exuberant party-time (even "wilder" than New Orleans). To me Dreamland is very playful and mischievous and in a lighthearted way makes fun of the visitors, the "suntan slaves", who need to protect themselves ("I wrapped that flag around me") to try and be comfortable in this African-influenced culture. It's interesting how differently people on this list can see things. Some specifics: Patricia wrote: I don't think Joni meant the use of the name Tar Baby as a racial slur. As critical as she is sometimes, I can't think of a time where she talks in a disparaging way about anyone's skin color. To me she's using it as another reference to the African influence in the culture she's visiting. And also as someone the other person is getting "stuck on". Tar Baby comes from the "Uncle Remus" stories, which are folk tales originally from Africa and collected in the late 1800s by Joel Chandler Harris. The stories are animal fables, with Brer Rabbit, Brer Fox and other animals always trying to outwit each other. In one of the stories, Brer Fox makes a "contraption" covered with tar that he calls a Tar Baby. Brer Rabbit then comes along and, being a hot-headed character, he ends up getting hands, feet and head stuck on the Tar Baby, with Brer Fox nearby laughing. As a kid, I loved these stories and Uncle Remus, who was a very kind character created by Harris to tie the stories together. In the 70s/80s (maybe earlier and I wasn't aware of it) the stories were highly criticized as being racist, mostly because of the Uncle Remus character who spoke in a very heavy dialect and the fact that he was a former slave telling the stories to a little white boy. But the animals were always the active characters, and I've seen the stories republished without Uncle Remus as narrator. Recently I saw a CD of Danny Glover doing "The Wonderful Tar Baby Story" with Taj Mahal, which makes me think the stories have been fully resurrected. They are very clever, funny stories. My guess is that Joni knew about these stories as a child and draws the name Tar Baby from this benign source. I've never read _Tar Baby_ by Toni Morrison, which came out in the early 80s, after DJRD, but have read that she considers the name Tar Baby to be a racial slur, so I have to pay attention to that. I'm curious about whether it's tied to the Uncle Remus stories and how they're viewed, or whether the name has taken on (or always had) a life of its own. Mark writes: Tar Baby & the Great White Wonder are both derogatory terms that describe how each of the two characters in question really feels about the other. Both are burning on the inside with resentment & hate & contemplating the eventual clash that they are both certain will inevitably come. Whoa, I thought they were burning on the inside with passion; this seems like a mutual seduction scene to me, "as they lean toward temptation". I don't get the feeling anywhere in this song that a hateful clash is going to happen; the visitors are just there temporarily and never completely comfortable (ha! Raleigh and Columbus were NOT completely successful). So the visitors leave. And from the comfort of their recliner, remember how pleasant it was (ah, dreamland). Which is where I'm about to be, for real, 'night, y'all, Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 03:05:51 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: How much, how often? Jason ponders: "how much Joni do you all listen to?" expounding: << ....as thread upon thread of lyric/song/album-related topics or snippets appear on the JMDL, I am continually amazed at the vast wealth of apparently instantly-accessible knowledge so many of you possess on all things Joni. Is it derived from so many years of endless repeated listenings?.... >> I think you hit the nail right on the head, Jason! Of all the music I've loved & played over & over since I bought my first album in 1965 (*Here Come The Beetles*) Joni is the only one I still listen to on a semi-daily basis. Yet I don't profess to be an expert on Joni trivia. I still have yet to hear ONE Joni bootleg (but tomorrow I anticipate the HOSL Demo & Tape Tree 8 on CD thanx to this list)! Psyched! E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:31:22 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: RE: Otis and Marlena - a question Dear Patricia, I have never seen O&M as an anti-semitic song. Coming from a Islamic backgroud myself, I found the references to Muslims sticking up Washington to be appropriately juxtaposed next to the images of these people enjoying themselves. I thought I would hear a anti-Islam in the song, but it isn't actually anti Islam. I see Otis and Marlena to be ciphers a type of person. Not Don and Joni. I believe she was in Miami, cooling her heels after her breakup with John Guerin, before the Hejira trip, before meeting with Jaco and the rest of Weather report. Otis, is black, granted. Marlena, is white and probably of the blonde and rich variety, yes. I saw it more of a Driving Miss Daisy situation. It was more of a statement on the relationship between Marlena, privileged and a socialite, while Otis is kept in the background, below stairs, as one would say in England. The repetition of Muslims sticking up Washington doesn't indicate any race to be compared with. The statement is both flippant and cutting. It talks about the political situation hundreds of miles away (And this was a real situation, I was sent a post about it last year when O&M was being discussed) (Tangentially, I can't believe I missed Don't Interrupt The Sorrow discussion.I will have to look up the thread), compared to merely the rich and vain (The golden dive the fatted flake). I think it's really pushing it to get any anti anything-other-than-it-is. Not about race. About class and strata of society. Thus endeth the lesson. Jamie Zubairi PS Is someone going to tell Eric that it's Joni as the black man on the DJRD cover, or shall I? - ---------- Patricia wrote Eric wrote: > I've always thought this song was about a Jewish couple like Mr & Mrs >Seinfeld or Fran's mom from The Nanny. But then I've recently wondered if >Otis could be the Black man who appears on the DJRD cover. I have *always*, from my very first listen on the day DJRD was released, heard anti-semitism in this song. Why elderly Jews and not simply elderly people of any creed? Because of the consistant duality in Joni's lyrics, (nowhere more evident than on DJRD) I heard the "they" in "They've come for fun and sun" as a play against the Muslims sticking up Washington. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:55:56 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: RE: Does Joni influence your life too much? Harper Lou said "I think you're putting too many slurs in there. Your singing reminds me of what Joni Mitchell does -- it's too modern sounding." Has this ever happened to any of you artists, poets, musicians, or dreamers out there? When I was at drama school I had to sing 'Blue' for a recital (hey, that's entertainment) and the pianist after the show said, apart from the octave difference, that was phrased like Joni would. Is there a cure? There is no cure. Once diagnosed, you will have Mitchellitis for life. Usually a terminal condition and affects the whole body and spirit. Not to be confused with the superficial form of the disease. It's called ' I don't know her music but I like that song Big Yellow Taxi' ;-) Much Joni Always Jamie Zubairi Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:28:07 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: RE: Does Joni influence your life too much? Harper Lou asked: > But does Ms. Mitchell have a dominant influence over your art or music, your > outlook on people, the way you handle things, etc.? Kakki Wrote Like Wally, I don't feel that Joni has influenced my general outlook or the way I handle things in my life. For me, it was that she always seemed to be saying in her songs what was already in my mind/heart/soul and so I felt an instant and very strong affinity with her. Even some of the stages she went through (as reflected in her albums) seemed to mirror in many ways what I was experiencing at the time. Every so often I would read something Joni said, perhaps it would be an indication of an attitude she had towards something, and for a coupla weeks I would try it on like a jacket to see if that attitude fit. Most of the times it wouldn't. Oh, y'know, I'm still growing as a person etc etc etc and you have to try these things, experiment. See how far you can go with it. Now that's a thing she has done. A taste for experimentation and seeing how far I can take things. Even if it makes me play devils avocado with a situation. Has she influenced my taste in music? Yes. I now listen to Marvin Gaye and Herbie Hancock and Mingus. I always listened to Billie and Ella and Edith and such the like, but knowing that Joan likes them too is all the more gravy. Crazy. Gravy. Much Joni as ever Jamie Zubairi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:40:40 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: RE: Joni's Chrono Lovelives Hi everybody! Sneaking out of the background after a couple of weeks perusing the Joni Digest. Trying to catch a thread isn't so easy when they appear to have been running for a while. Anyway, I'm a little phased by the interest in Joni's lovers and their supposed bearing on the content of her work. I take a clue from Joni's position as a Painter. I studied art at college for some years and one of the main features of that time was the absolute necessity to keep sketch books to hand in order that ideas be scribbled down etc etc. Taking these noodles and doodles forward into finished works quite often meant that they bore little resemblance to the ideas in their original form. We all know and wonder about the journals the divine Ms M has maintained all her life. What I'd trade to get a look at those to see the mind of such an artist at work.....but I digress. When I first heard the recorded version of Two Grey Rooms ( I have a rather dog-eared a cappella version recorded from a BBC Radio Interview JM did around the time of WTRF) I imagined JM as the person in the room. It was wonderful to hear about the real story behind it being from something she read in the Fassbinder biog. The story was noble and rich in pathos - my favourite meal,.....but inclines me to dyspepsia! But it still took the song a little further away from me. Selfish, I know, but true. You see, I too had a 'Two Grey Rooms' experience. All together now.....haven't we all! I have to profess indifference to the who's and when's of JMs love life if for no other reason than the greater liklihood of taking away from me that which I find personal and connecting about her songs. Certainly there is bound to be a curiosity abroad but I think that the 'real meat' behind a song restricts the imagination once it is exposed. I know that H and THOSL got me through my teenage years with music and certain lyrics that produced in me an almost 'tuning-fork' like reaction. (Those gooseflesh momentsssssss). But I can remember the lyric content especially being analogous for me. That was important then and is now. The detail and origin much less of a consideration. I think for all of us it is the pointers or key moments in her words and music that make them special to us as listeners. Imagine, if you will, that we found out that a favourite song was borne out of a smooch JM was having with someone we thought was a bit of toe-rag now. Bleuch! - Come on now, we've all been there! Something in the way that painting and 'unlyriced' music can offer impressions, so too do the lyrics of JMs work for me. They are like paintings in themselves. Couplets that allow the imagination to run away. I think I prefer it that way. The cost of knowledge is having to deal with it. It's your call. Les ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:19:08 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: How much, how often? Jason asks: <> I try to listen to as much Joni as I can; after all, 7 days without Joni makes one weak! :~) I generally always have at least 1 Joni in the 10-disc changer in the car, and of course love to bring it to work and play it too...looking forward to making new converts at my new job - maybe we can get them to play Joni over the speakers in the kayak factory! And at home, I play the discs and tapes as much as I can without getting too much rolling of eyes from wife & son. Headphones also come in handy! And of course, Slutty me always has plenty of other artists in rotation as well... << I'm guessing Mingus may not fare too well in the latter category >> Well, you wouldn't know it by me...I'd say I spin that one as much as any other; maybe more so since there's still LOTS of undiscovered treasure on it for me. <> Besides the Tape Tree interviews, which are very enlightening, there's always the web sites which are a seemingly unending source of information...as far as retaining it, Joni is a love, so I absorb all the information like a sponge, not like studying for some silly history test in school where you regurgitate some information and then quickly try to erase it to make room for more pop music trivia! Bob NP: "Twisted", Hendricks & Ross, from Joni's Jazz which I just got yesterday - Thanks Jerry! My review will follow later today! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:28:51 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Chrono Lovelives In a message dated 10/28/1999 8:43:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk writes: << Anyway, I'm a little phased by the interest in Joni's lovers and their supposed bearing on the content of her work. I take a clue from Joni's position as a Painter. I studied art at college for some years and one of the main features of that time was the absolute necessity to keep sketch books to hand in order that ideas be scribbled down etc etc. Taking these noodles and doodles forward into finished works quite often meant that they bore little resemblance to the ideas in their original form. We all know and wonder about the journals the divine Ms M has maintained all her life. What I'd trade to get a look at those to see the mind of such an artist at work.....but I digress. When I first heard the recorded version of Two Grey Rooms ( I have a rather dog-eared a cappella version recorded from a BBC Radio Interview JM did around the time of WTRF) I imagined JM as the person in the room. It was wonderful to hear about the real story behind it being from something she read in the Fassbinder biog. The story was noble and rich in pathos - my favourite meal,.....but inclines me to dyspepsia! But it still took the song a little further away from me. Selfish, I know, but true. You see, I too had a 'Two Grey Rooms' experience. All together now.....haven't we all! >> Thanks for such a lively, thoughtful and beautifully written post! You expressed so well what I feel and have been unable to express here without ruffling feathers. I wish I had your writing talent. Since I don't, I'm simply grateful to be able to read your thoughts. And welcome, by the way! Take care, Gina NP: Into The Great Wide Open - Tom Petty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:36:55 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: Does Joni influence your life too much? But Wally - do you have any idea how much COURAGE it takes to be original. And you are - unique and intelligent, graceful and emotionally accessible. I applaud and really like you for that. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:41:24 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: RE: Joni's Chrono Lovelives Les de-lurks: <> Welcome Les! Thanks for stepping up and offering a great post, keep them coming! As for catching a thread, it's also a lot easier if you're on the List as opposed to the Digest, but you can enjoy the Digest as well, I did for a long time before I just had to take the plunge...it's a big difference! Bob NP: Toshi Reagon, "Trouble Child" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:48:07 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: How much, how often? Hi Jason. You asked <> I started listening to Joni 31 years ago. I was 12 at the time - and I listened so much, I memorized all her songs. For me, there was Joni, and then there was everyone else in a blur. I've also performed a number of her songs, and in doing so, have learned more about them than listening allows. I realized the other day (when I quoted a Joni song, unbeknownst to the person I was with) that I've probably inhaled her work the way some people memorize the bible. So, it's not a conscious thing, like Bob said - it's not like studying for a test. And I do go through phases where I don't listen quite as often. But scarcely a day goes by without some Joni. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:41:57 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Dreamland. Discuss In a message dated 10/28/1999 4:55:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << I don't think Joni meant the use of the name Tar Baby as a racial slur. As critical as she is sometimes, I can't think of a time where she talks in a disparaging way about anyone's skin color. To me she's using it as another reference to the African influence in the culture she's visiting. And also as someone the other person is getting "stuck on". >> The Black-American novelist Toni Morrison wrote an early novel called Tar Baby. I hardly think that *she* was being racist. I don't think that Joni's use of it is any more or less racist than that. Gina NP: Mary Jane's Last Dance - Tom Petty from greatest hits ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:55:34 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: How much, how often? In a message dated 10/28/1999 4:57:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ewwtaylor@adelphia.net writes: << Of all the music I've loved & played over & over since I bought my first album in 1965 (*Here Come The Beetles*) Joni is the only one I still listen to on a semi-daily basis. Yet I don't profess to be an expert on Joni trivia. I still have yet to hear ONE Joni bootleg (but tomorrow I anticipate the HOSL Demo & Tape Tree 8 on CD thanx to this list)! Psyched! E.T. >> I listen to Joni almost daily also; mostly in the car on the half hour commute to work and on the boombox on my night table, just before falling asleep. The rest of the day I am fully immersed in work, my children, my friends. I usually also program the alarm on the boombox to play Joni every morning at 6 a.m. (though someitmes I deviate from that routine...this morning it was Suzanne Vega's first album). And like Eric, whatever trivia I know about her is secondary to the emotional and intellectual substance her work brings to my life daily and has for 23 years. I really value her work in terms of how it fits my thoughts and feelings and perspectives. It's a very personal and private experience. Her work has enriched and enlarged my thinking so in that way I would consider her an influence. Take care, Gina NP: American Girl (back to the beginning) Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:59:18 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? In a message dated 10/28/1999 7:07:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jaz@famelon.demon.co.uk writes: << There is no cure. Once diagnosed, you will have Mitchellitis for life. Usually a terminal condition and affects the whole body and spirit. Not to be confused with the superficial form of the disease. It's called ' I don't know her music but I like that song Big Yellow Taxi' ;-) Much Joni Always Jamie Zubairi >> Tee-hee. I like that, Jamie! : } Gina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:59:43 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? Joni influences my life immensely. But not too much. The only time it gets too much is if I get preachy which I try to control. It's very hard not to when I get on a roll. Right now my best friend is starting a very exciting relationship and she keeps calling me up with these 'do you think this is the real thing' questions. Over the last two days, I've been constantly playing "Help Me" which usually I hate to play on guitar because the tuning is so wierd, but I've enjoyed playing it so much because of this theme of new love. Yesterday I was driving her home from work and she was talking about trying to control her feelings when she was with her new prince, and without even thinking I blurted out, "I'm a fool when love's at stake, because I can't conceal emotion, what I'm feeling's always written on my face!" I also emailed her the lyrics for "LOVE (Corinthians II)" and she freaked! (she is not a Joni fan at all). So subliminally I am channeling Joni, but my friend just thinks I'm the Warrior Princess of Love. Poor sap! And in true Joni style I have this horror of waiting for the other shoe to drop and this whole scene turning into "a portrait of a disappointment!" So that's how Joni is influencing my life this week. You're in my blood like holy wine, for God's sake. Take care, Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:55 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life...and E. Piaff In a message dated 10/28/1999 7:35:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jaz@famelon.demon.co.uk writes: << Yes. I now listen to Marvin Gaye and Herbie Hancock and Mingus. I always listened to Billie and Ella and Edith and such the like, but knowing that Joan likes them too is all the more gravy. Crazy. Gravy. Much Joni as ever >> Yes! Yes! Joni opened a new door for me into jazz! And now I'm more interested in Billie than I've ever been. And Edith Piaff I used to listen to when I was a child living in France (how the French adore her!) and I desperately need to get ahold of something on CD by her. Can anyone recommend something on CD? My parents, God bless them, got rid of all their old LPs, including Piaff's. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:10:59 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? i had a real funny thing happen this week. i play with a group and we are writing and recording our own songs right now. i wrote a song and wrote two guitar parts for it and recorded them on a demo for the group to hear so they would get the feel of the song. when i did the first guitar part, i decided to use an electric guitar with some deep chorous and reverb. then, i typically use a flat pick but for some reason, i decided to just use my fingers. then i played with the switch to get the right mix of bass and treble. then, i played the leads over top with an acoustic. when i played back the song, because i was using my fingernails in a downward push on the rythem, with all the chorus, it sounded just like one of maybe six different joni songs from either ti or ttt. and last year i bitched about her repetitive use of the vg8. i said it had a pipe organ sound. well, that's what i created, unintentionally but quite instinctively. and i really love the way my piece came out. but it is totally joniesque and surely her influence. pat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:17:33 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: How much, how often? Rarely does a day go by that I don't listen to Joni. I workout at the gym Mon-Fri. and I have my walkman with me listening to Joni exclusivley. I used to think I had to have loud dance music piercing my ear drum in order to have a decent workout, but since my little experiment with Joni's music a few months ago I have found that I *can* have a GREAT workout. On the weekend, I usually clean house to Joni's music, plus I always have at least one of her CD's in my car. Jimmy- who is tired from staying up late last night beading a halloween wig. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:39:07 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? Lou said:..."Maybe a new thread... I've read how people have Jonimoments (TM) in supermarkets and such. ...But does Ms. Mitchell have a dominant influence over your art or music, your outlook on people, the way you handle things, etc.?" Funny you should mention this. I was going to raise the issue last week myself since I had noticed that several times within that week I had said things that were quotes from Joni. This has happened much more, of course, since I joined this list. I didn't raise it at the time because there were so many other good threads going on that I didn't want to interrupt the flow. My suggestion was going to be: imagine that it's even *possible* there could be "too much Joni" in your life (unthinkable!). My two examples that I could think of were these: You know you've got too much Joni in your life when... 1. You're talking to your 12-year old about her favourite animal, which happens to be the cheetah. She is telling you about how cheetahs are more like dogs than cats and that they can be tamed. She moves from there to tigers and wonders about the possibility of taming these. You hear yourself saying, "But darling, you can't tame the tiger." (and your inner voice that monitors all this stuff says, "I can't believe you just said that.") 2. You are responding to an e-mail from a co-worker who has asked for a suggestion on dealing with a particular problem she's having with our correspondence tracking system. You e-mail her back suggesting she may want to pursue this with the systems officer but suggest as well that she may not want to push this too hard just yet, as it isn't urgent and because, with all the Y2K stuff going on at present, the systems officer is "up to her neck in alligators". Lou continues with: "I noticed it last evening in the recording studio. I'm doing a new album of traditional harp and harpsichord music -- Irish and Renaissance (I sell them at Renaissance festivals." I love that kind of music - do you sell it anywhere apart from the festivals? Do you ever come to Toronto? "Is there a cure?" Probably, but it wouldn't be pleasant. It would require total withdrawal from all things Joni and only the strongest and hardest of heart dare go there. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:47:23 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Rufus Beer >"Lawyers haven't been this popular since Rufus Beer slaughtered half >of >France....." Tres amusant. I'm sure any beer named Rufus would kill more than just half of France :-D Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:01:59 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: How much, how often? Jason queried: "how much Joni do you all listen to?" I don't listen to anything at work because I get interrupted too often by phone calls, staff problems and so on and it gets too frustrating. I keep wanting to tell people to get the hell out of my office so I can actually do some work and listen to some music. I do listen on my way to and from work, and when I'm doing my half-hour of stationary biking at the Y (boring, but some weight is coming off and the music is a big help!) I must say I've been playing a heckuva lot of Joni lately. I just bought DJRD - that was one that I hadn't bought for some reason up until a month or so ago. I've been listening to it almost non-stop since getting it, which is what I tend to do any time I get anything new that I particularly like. For this reason, right now, the lyrics and music of DJRD have been playing almost non-stop in my head. Right now, I'm attempting a bit of a Joni-withdrawal. Trying to expand my horizons and not stick too much to one theme, because I recognize a certain obsessive-compulsive tendency in myself and when I notice that happening, I try to divert myself with other things. So I've been listening to Bonnie Raitt, Elvis Costello, Sarah MacLachlan, Sandy Dennie (Denny? I keep forgetting the spelling) and classical music and a bit of jazz to try to get myself a little less focussed on Joni - not that I think that's a bad thing, but it's kind of like eating the same food for dinner every night - it might be your favourite, but you need a little variety as well, and you appreciate it so much more when you get back to it after eating at MacDonald's. Jason, if you're spreading yourself "thin" as you say on other artists, you're probably healthier than I am. Keep up the good work. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:21:39 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: how much, how often? I have to admit that I don't listen to Joni that much. I play her a lot on my guitar so when I get a chance to listen to music I usually don't pick her. During the summer I was absolutely FREAKING to Heart's Greatest Hits and would continually reprogram the disc to play Crazy on You over and over. (don't ask me what that was about but now I listen to that song and I want to hurl. Burnout!) What happens is I'll usually catch myself listening to Joni by surprise. Like when I reached under the seat of my car and found my Chalkmark tape that had been missing for over a year. I stuck it in and was completely JOYOUS. Beat of Black Wings became my anthem for about a week. Then when I received the Joni's Jazz tape, I was so taken with Joe Jackson's piano playing on Down to You (talk about somebody who has Joni in the blood) that I put on Court & Spark for the first time in probably 2 years. I just laid on the couch with my eyes closed and absorbed the whole disc like a symphony. What a GREAT piece of work. That's about the time I started playing Help Me insessantly. So although I don't actually LISTEN to Joni a lot, she creeps up on me almost every day in some form. I also have been listening to Joni for over 30 years so I guess I'm one of the mature voices (I know you are but what am I!! :-b) Take care, Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:30:16 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: hair & moustaches & O&M Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:40 -0400 From: Debra Kaufman All this talk of hair and then Einstein, I have to ask what's happened to the plain old moustache? You never see just that anymore and some men look so good in them. VanDykes I like a lot but that's all you see, except for the (usually older man) full beard. I like the Otis & Marlene thread, esp. wally and Mark in Seattle's comments. When DJRD came out, there was much talk about Muslims, much ignorant and racist talk because of the oil crisis. There were t-shirts that said things like "Ayatollah Assa-hola" with an ugly picture of Khomeini (sp), and a lot of nationalist talk and bravado setting apart "us" from "them"--in other words, demonizing Islamic people. I think that's what Joni's remarks refer to ("Muslims hold up Washington" referring to the oil countries "holding up" US policymakers, that is, calling the shots and making oil prices zoom). The picture of her on the album cover with the cartoon bubble saying "mooslims, mooslims, heh-heh-heh" or whatever she's making fun of that. I agree with Mark that O&M reflects Joni's ambivalence toward her wealth and status, and she's including herself in that critique. (she's on the arm of her Marlboro Man)--using wit and sarcasm. I don't see this portrait as anti-semitic but rather a harsh critique of the wealthy aging socialite type once again (or still) exploiting the "exotic" tropical culture. Debra K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:43:54 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Rufus Beer Jason and Catherine already at happy hour say: << >"Lawyers haven't been this popular since Rufus Beer slaughtered half >of >France....." Tres amusant. I'm sure any beer named Rufus would kill more than just half of France :-D >> Maybe Joni was pronouncing it that way just to give her good friend Chaka Kahn a little giggle. :-{) Luv Mean Old Daddy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:20:53 EDT From: Ladygrammy@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #482 Hi all, I'm in a questioning mood, today, I guess. Maybe a new thread... I've read how people have Jonimoments (TM) in supermarkets and such. And concerts and releases are a big central deal. There are so many great themes and hooks in her music that it's easy to look at an ugly new shopping center and sing "paved Paradise, and put up a parking lot..." But does Ms. Mitchell have a dominant influence over your art or music, your outlook on people, the way you handle things, etc.? I noticed it last evening in the recording studio. I'm doing a new album of traditional harp and harpsichord music -- Irish and Renaissance (I sell them at Renaissance festivals). We're talking very traditional, almost classical. The engineer for this Harper Lou writes... "I think you're putting too many slurs in there. Your singing reminds me of what Joni Mitchell does -- it's too modern sounding." Has this ever happened to any of you artists, poets, musicians, or dreamers out there? Is there a cure? Dear Harper Lou, Why in the world would you want to cure it? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:32:11 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: Joni's Chrono Lovelives Les, "Sneaking out of the background after a couple of weeks perusing the Joni Digest. Trying to catch a thread isn't so easy when they appear to have been running for a while." Please sneak out more often. You're a wonderful writer. You said: "I have to profess indifference to the who's and when's of JMs love life if for no other reason than the greater liklihood of taking away from me that which I find personal and connecting about her songs." I hear you. I never paid a great deal of attention to who Joni's current love interest might be either except as an interesting bit of information. What really speaks to me is what she says - it has universal appeal. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:44:43 EDT From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: A cure for Joni-ism? Lou wrote: One could say that I have a constant Jonie theme running through everything that I do:The Return to the Garden....but folks have been yearning for this since we gained an ego and left the "garden." I look to my fellow artists for a sense companionship and family, so that I don't feel so alone. Since I was about four years old Joni's been a friendly part of my psyche right along side Leonardo da Vinci, Shel Silverstien, Salvador Dali, Mozart, Dave Mallet,MC Escher, Paul Simon, Roald Dahl, boat builders, teachers and farmers. I think, as artists/creators we can only hope that the moment moves through us and that we have enough discipline and honesty to redirect it all uncensored on to our canvas, four-track, ball of clay, students, or whatever our medium may be. If Joni is seeping in through the seams and enough of all you are, want to be and have been is evident then why deny her? I don't. (For a while I was a rabid Captain Beefheart and Joni fan...you shoulda seen the weirdness that abounded.) Julian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:07:03 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: Otis and Marlena - a question Jamie Z tells Patricia: "I have never seen O&M as an anti-semitic song. Coming from a Islamic backgroud myself, I found the references to Muslims sticking up Washington to be appropriately juxtaposed next to the images of these people enjoying themselves." I would never have made any Jewish connection myself. This is probably because there's so many of us darned Canadians (Christian, Jewish, anything else, and English- or French-speaking) who spend their winters in Florida (not me! too young, too poor! You've got to be at least 80 from what I can tell and either rich and staying in some fancy hotel, or poor and staying in a trailer park!) And even though I was the one who asked the "Muslims" question to begin with (although I understand it came up earlier, before I was here), it was more of a puzzle to me than anything, especially the Joni/black guy with his "Mooslems" cartoon balloon. I don't think Joni is anti-anyone (even lawyers!) I agree with those who've seen it more as a "there's-a-crisis-happening-somewhere-in-the-world-but-I'm-here-to-have-a-good-time-so-don't-bother-me-with-it" kind of thing. The very fact that she refers to them very generically as "Muslims", rather than any particular named political or terrorist group, (or whatever they might be) is, to me, her wicked sense of irony, showing the ignorance (willful or un- ) that people have of world events. They're vaguely aware that something is going on somewhere, but who's doing what to whom is relatively unimportant compared to the next tanning session - so they're all lumped in together under the name "Muslims". "Aw jeez, there's a bunch of Muslims sticking up Washington again. What's for dinner?" Yet, I don't think Joni is totally down on that either - everyone needs a break from the stress of modern life. I can go for weeks without listening to the news or reading the paper because a lot of it is just so upsetting - and I really don't GET so much of it and am powerless to do anything about it - that I need a break from it from time to time. I totally agree with Jamie's comment that "The repetition of Muslims sticking up Washington doesn't indicate any race to be compared with. The statement is both flippant and cutting." Elegantly stated. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:09:34 EDT From: Julian51469@aol.com Subject: Does Joni influence your life too much?(yeah and I f***kin' love it!) Wally K sez: Does a powerful figure in one's live have to be copied or replicated in order for them the be called influencial or do they simply have to open a door and let the inspired through into their own sense of genius? Joni herself has mentioned that she is not influenced by anyone...except her guitar teacher, her english teacher, her child Kelly/Killauren, her relationships with lawers and romances with friends and strangers, the state of world affairs, etc, etc,...but she always seems to find her own magical way of saying and doing things that speak to the rest of us. BTW, if Joni's not influenced by anyone then why is she doing an album of standards? If we are not influenced by anyone why should we keep listening so closely to Joni? It was under the influence of John Lennon that I woke up one day to the way our culture loves to put blame and responsibility on the "messenger" and not the "message." In the world of music it is Joni, Zappa, Beefheart, Harry Partch, Diamanda Galas, Yoko Ono, Annette Peacock, Stokhausen, etc that further reinforces these feelings - you don't have to like what they're doing but you can't deny their originality and genius and in a world that can't get enough of "follow the leader" it's a beautifull breath of fresh air. Julian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:39:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Does Joni influence your life too much? Boy, this is a whale of a thread. I'm going to have to do a little bit of organization on this one, as Joni has influenced me in so many ways. So here goes: 1. Things I no longer do since discovering Joni: Fear smoking Listen to my Jackson Browne albums with any regularity Look at chimneys as simply a necessary part of a fireplace Pass by buskers without dropping change in the hat Wear clothes with designer labels Refrain from singing at the dinner table or in public Consider myself a passable lyricist 2. Things I more deeply appreciate through listening to the music of Joni Mitchell: My wife My cats My mother's piano lessons That Theory of Music class I took in college Pain and loss as forces of growth rather than destruction The influence of jazz in popular music Road trips The importance of simplicity 3. Things I've done as a direct result of Joni's music (consciously or un-): Taken up the guitar, learning to play in alternate tunings Visited Memphis, TN Moved from composing instrumentals to full blown songs with vocals Revealed secrets of my life to complete strangers, just because they're Joni fans ... Planned vacations around concert dates So many more ways, so little time! I should add, in closing, that I listen to Joni everyday. Sometimes a song, sometimes an album side, sometimes a whole CD. I rarely do marathon sessions anymore -- I've found that the joy is greater when you ration it. So folks, is that too much -- if so, it sure doesn't feel like it. Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:38:11 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: how much, how often? Almost everyday. Always have at least two in the car. One is nearly always NRH. At present there is (are?) the Hissing Demos, LOTC and NRH in the car. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:05:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - October 29 1969: The Saskatoon StarPhoenix publishes a strangely worded article about Joni entitled "Joni Mitchell Success Story." Read it at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/ss691029.htm 1970: Joni performs with James Taylor at the Paris Theater in London. 1994: The London Independent publishes an interview with Joni. It reads "I grasped that smoking was an irritant," she says, "I didn't believe it was a cause." So (and here the story takes a mildly Californian twist) she sought a second opinion from a Hawaiian mystic called Oleta. "She's a two-powered mystic. With you fully dressed and lying on a table, she can see into your body by going wall-eyed, seeing light and shadow through your clothes. I said, 'Look in my throat, Oleta. Do you see death there?' 'No,' she said. This sounds so crackpot: she sent me water. The water was electrically charged and commanded to sluice and slowly restore. She fixed me." Read the rest at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/lond-ind-941029.htm 1996: The albums "Hits" and "Misses" are released. - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:07:04 -0400 From: Janet Hess Subject: And the wiring in the walls... Over my first cup of coffee this morning, I found myself thinking about a certain man from Mars. This comes from today's Washington Post: Missing Cat Sounds Alarm T ST. NW, 3800 block, Oct. 14. A woman whose male cat had been missing for a month found the animal after it set off a security alarm in the basement of a neighbor who was out of the country. An Animal Control officer, unable to enter the basement legally, asked a veterinarian to declare the situation an emergency, which would give the officer the right to enter the neighbor's house. Meanwhile, the woman broke into the house and removed the cat. The veterinarian examined the cat, which had lost about five pounds and was slightly dehydrated, but was otherwise fine. - ---- Hugz to all, Janet and Deanna Ivy the Wonderkitty, thankfully a homebody - ----------------- So when you see a man who's broken / Pick him up and carry him. And when you see a woman who's broken / Put her all into your arms 'Cause we don't know where we come from / We don't know what we are. Laurie Anderson, "Ramon" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:07:20 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: Does Joni influence your life too much? Wally says: "this may sound as a very arrogant thing to say but it is actually rather sad because what i'm basically doing is admitting that i'm a very disabled person that lacks the capacity to assimilate experience." Oh, pooh, you do so assimilate experience. (So there! Nya-nya-nya!) It's just so much a part of you that you aren't even aware of it. You're obviously a warm, caring, intelligent and funny human being. It's so evident in your writing. "i have been touched, turned on so to speak, by many people but not influenced." That is the GOOD kind of influence - that helps you become a better human. The bad kind is like the kid who does everything his/her friends tell him/her to do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you do that. (Do you use your powers for good, and not for evil? hee-hee-hee.) "for instance, joni helped me become aware that it was all right to write songs about myself, but she didn't influence me stylewise." A lot of us were brought up to believe that talking about yourself or about your experiences was a bad thing. You were told (at least, I remember this) not to use the word "I" too many times in writing. And yet, later on, taking a creative writing course, you're told to write from experience - don't make things up. I think our parents may have confused selfishness with self-love. We were supposed to put others first - however, ironically, you can't love another person unless you love yourself. This isn't the same as arrogance or selfishness. It's being, as the French say, comfortable in your own skin. (Wally, if you're the village idiot, a lot of us are in biiiig trouble.) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #243 ****************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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