From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #227 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Friday, October 15 1999 Volume 01 : Number 227 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: an old new news ["Helen M. Adcock" ] RE: Crazy Cries curries disfavor 100% JC [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: an old new news [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! [Mark Domyancich ] RE: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! ["Brett Code" ] new acquisitions - vljc [Bounced Message ] songwriting JMDLers? [Anne Sandstrom ] Today in Joni History - October 15 [Today in Joni History ] Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! ["Kakki" ] flirty flattery [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! [Rob Jordan ] RE: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: songwriting JMDLers? [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Millenium countdown to be six degree'd ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! ["Mark or Travis" ] Joni's Jazz in Europe [John van Tiel ] RE: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! ["Wally Kairuz" Subject: Re: an old new news >there was a chitter of fans >howling like leaves and trash in the wet winter streets >there was always a chitter of fans somewhere >made me wonder what the hell was wrong with me and them >assuming the hunt was held with the same enthusiasm as those that >pursued embraced >i wonder about the superficiality of the observations on the songs >mixed with subjective interpretations as if that certified intimacy >i laugh at those who think me harsh and somber >i thank God with very little reverence that i am spared being the center >of chatter >i curse the devil for spurring on my curiosity, >not of them >not of they >not of those >of one whose sparkle >deserves guarded shadows >not another hand from another lafraneer >taxis? >shit every one is a doorman with a smile at Christmas! >****** >protests of sweetness >i look out upon the falling leaves >amused by a skinny black cat feeding on the carcass of a ham bone >i left it >plenty of meat >i'll feed it as long as the winter comes and goes >as long as it comes and goes >the sweetness is the independence >the true lack of need of me >the fear of me >though it could scratch my eyes out >the sweetness is watching unobserved >of letting that cat in its own sweet time choose or not choose >to lick the hand that's taken to feeding it >sweetness is >no bravado >a little humility >no reason to fear >and sunlight warming the landscape in a measure >balanced >palitable >surrending >*** >hi >i am >still >around >** >s. Only one thing to say really . . . . WOW! Helen _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:18:37 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: RE: Crazy Cries curries disfavor 100% JC Don Rowe wrote We don't blame you, though, we know it was Larry's fault. Wasn't it Don Freed's fault? Didn't he write the lyrics? Incidentally, Joni sing CCOL at Nara along with Sex Kills, She records Turbulent Indigo the day after the couple decide to seperate. Which happened first? Meeting Don and liking the song? or the seperation between her and Larry? Just asking, not really my biz to know. Did she jump or was she pushed?;-) Much Joni Jamie Zubairi NP: Celia Cruz: Crocante habanero ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:32:02 +0100 From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: RE: Visible Overhead mics in movies Dear Jim just a little addendum to what I posted earlier Any way, overhead mics should be visible no matter how wide the film editor is because it's the _height_ that matters. I said: > It is a problem when the format they filmed is in widescreen and the format > they editis in normal screen, the gate is much smaller (imagine a square in > a rectangle). When I said that imagine a square inside a rectangle, I wasn't being clear. Imagine, then, a square room within a rectangular room, with space on all sides to go round the square room. That is the difference between formats. Further, if the had the money, they could always crop out the offending mic. You would think! Not wishing to flame, just make myself clearer. Jamie Zubairi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 06:33:33 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! > like kakki and everyone else i'm crazed right now, but i'll copy the two > tapes for the next 4 people in the eastern seaboard who contact me privately > offlist. please expect to wait at least two to three weeks for tapes, i am > the proud owner of two new jobs, three performance subscriptions, 4 > tape-recording projects for friends, and even a life once in a while. i'm > also emailing a couple of friends offlist. Ok, did anybody in the Northwest receive a these tapes that would be willing to make a copy or two? I will gladly supply blanks and postage. These reports are maddeningly teasing and I'm salivating right now. Somebody please help! Mark in Seattle (not SoCal and not Eastern Seaboard - sigh....) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:47:08 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: an old new news In a message dated 10/14/1999 5:14:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << Only one thing to say really . . . . WOW! >> Double WOW. If I let my imagination go wild, I'd say...is that Joni in disguise? C'mon out, Joan. We won't bite! Terry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:48:01 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! Mark said: <> Ditto from South Carolina!! If someone has already included me in distribution, let me know...otherwise, who can throw me a frikkin' bone here ?... Kakki and Patrick, I'm gonna pop y'all's butts for that blatant gloating! Here I was all set to comment about the wonderful tape I got from John Low with the (7) Fairport Convention Joni covers, and now it hardly seems worth mentioning... Humph! Bob, weeping AND drooling (you know it's the same release...) NP: Stevie Wonder, "All in Love is Fair" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:03:47 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! Wouldn't it be a lot easier if someone offered up their copy to a tape tree??? >At 6:33 AM -0700 10/14/99, Mark or Travis wrote: >Ok, did anybody in the Northwest receive a these tapes that would be >willing to make a copy or two? I will gladly supply blanks and >postage. These reports are maddeningly teasing and I'm salivating >right now. Somebody please help! Mark NP-Simon and Garfunkel-So Long Frank Lloyd Wright ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | ICQ: 21619464 AIM: CalifKitch | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:26:21 -0600 From: "Brett Code" Subject: RE: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! I've been such a lurker lately that I feel guilty even wanting a copy of those tapes. But, I do, I do. What about us poor Canadian folk? Please, please, please, please please! Brett ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:21:34 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: new acquisitions - vljc Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:16:33 -0400 From: Jeanne Whitlock Subject: new acquisitions - vljc Hi, great thread idea! New must-haves for me besides Joni, of course, were most recently: Jonatha Brooke, Patty Larkin (her new live CD is awesome). Actually, most of my CD purchases in the last few years have been "catch up"; catching up my Joni collection and other stuff on vinyl from days of yore (Beatles, Stones, Dylan, JT, classic stuff that my poor turntable with its broken belt just won't play anymore!) I like the delurking days idea. I'm a most infrequent contributor, so I'll decloak then, too!! :-) Jeanne - -- Jeanne Whitlock Technical/Resource Coordinator Cancer Information Service Indiana and Michigan Karmanos Cancer Institute whitlock@karmanos.org 313.833.0715 X 7341 ************************** The National Cancer Institute's Cancer Information Service Your Link to Cancer Information ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:02:02 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: songwriting JMDLers? Hi everyone. It just occured to me that I usually assume that anyone who loves Joni's music probably then tries to write their own. But, obviously, that's not necessarily true. So, I'd love to hear from other songwriting JMDLers. How long have you been writing? Do you write in open tunings, which ones? Have any lyrics to share? Interesting stories about how any of your songs came about? Anne (deliriously happy because today I got a tape from BobM and my copy of PWWM, all within 10 minutes!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:01:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - October 15 1997: Today, the Newhouse News Service publishes a story on aging rock n' rollers, saying of Joni "Mitchell, who was inducted--finally--into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame last year, still plays pinball and snaps at old flames (she recently got into a tussle with Jackson Browne), which makes her cooler than a lot of people half her age. " Read about the old geezers at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/nns971015.htm - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:09:35 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! Bob wrote: > Kakki and Patrick, I'm gonna pop y'all's butts for that blatant gloating! > Here I was all set to comment about the wonderful tape I got from John Low > with the (7) Fairport Convention Joni covers, and now it hardly seems worth > mentioning... I would love to hear about the Fairport Convention Joni covers! Now you all, I don't think it was Patrick's or my intention to gloat or piss people off. These tapes were a total surprise in my mailbox and simon indicated by a folllow-up email that he hoped we'd share with others and that was my intention for posting about it. He obviously put a lot of work into sending off several of these packages to a number of listmembers all around the world so those people could start making copies for listmembers in their area. I am trying to do my best to share this music, but I am very serious when I say that I am totally swamped at work and home right now and there is no way I can accomodate any requests for taping other than what I offered to the SoCal group. I'm not trying to be a bitch or selective, I simply have no other alternative at this time. Once others have copies, it is hoped that they will also volunteer time to keep the music circulating to others. I have arranged to have my set of tapes professionally duplicated and will offer that set to the first volunteer I hear from who seriously wishes to be a better tape branch than I am able to be at this time. Let's just be happy we do have a chance to hear this amazing stuff, thanks to simon! Kakki NP: Buena Vista Social Club - Candela ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:46:21 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: flirty flattery <> in honor of you, Bob - to the tune of For Free (which you probably would have guessed anyway...) "Now me, I post to flatter And flirt with ladies fair I've got a rapier wit And 16 female friends Who tell me that they care" Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:53:38 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! Kakki karped: <> <> Whoa, little Bubbette, I was just making funny...besides, a very nice and kind lister (other than myself) has stepped up and offered to make me copies, so I'll get mine and share the joy once I do...and you're right to tip the cap to the amazin' Simon, to whom we all owe a great debt! As far as the Fairport covers, they're really very enjoyable! The details are as follows: Eastern Rain (1969) Marcie (1968) Chelsea Morning (1968) I Don't Know Where I stand (1968) Night In The City (1968) Woodstock (live/accapella, 1986) Both Sides Now (1981) The tracks feature a couple different versions of the band, they all sound quite nice! Another tip o' the Braves cap to John Low, the "Wonder from Down Under" for these tunes, although if my memory serves he got them from Mr. Castle in England, so these songs are circling the globe... The mo' Joni the better!! Bob NP: X, "Some Other Time" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 21:53:24 +0100 From: Rob Jordan Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! At 08:25 PM 10/13/99 -0700, Kakki wrote: >I am very busy at work and home lately and cannot at this time copy all >these tapes but will offer to make the two tapes of Joni's Jazz for any >Southern California listmembers in exchange for blanks and postage (unless >you want to pick up when we see each other again ;-) Please email me >privately if you are interested. Hi folks, I'm another lucky beneficiary of "the tapeman" and I offer to copy for UK or European listers who contact me directly. Best wishes to all Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 18:56:46 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! all right!!! any lucky tape recipients in the falkland/malvinas islands that can make a copy for me? wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 18:43:11 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: RE: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! I've been the lucky recipient of Simon's largesse many times now. When I've made copies for folks in the past, I've been scolded because my equipment is crappy, but I'd be more than happy to make copies for my sonically illiterate comrades. Contact me privately. I won't be doing anything before November 1st, though, because I'm going away. Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~there are only three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:10:43 -0400 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: songwriting JMDLers? >So, I'd love to hear from other songwriting JMDLers. How long have you been >writing? Do you write in open tunings, which ones? Have any lyrics to share? >Interesting stories about how any of your songs came about? I've been writing songs for around 15 years probably. I originally began writing them on the piano but my mother taught me how to play the guitar when I was 14 or 15 which really drew me into playing and writing though recently I have developed an appreciation for the piano again. I grew up listening to classic rock and was particularly inspired by Rush, Jethro Tull, Yes, and ELP among others. I remember though discovering all kinds of music, something I couldn't seem to get enough of. Often I would wait till it was raining, then get on my bicycle and ride a few miles to the record store, spend an hour looking at all the interesting albums and then bring home a few. It made it more exciting I guess, going out in the rain. I discovered Joni Mitchell when I was in college and someone lent me Song to a Seagull which I was completely mesmerized by for a long time. I would say that she has made a significant impact on me in my development as a writer. Around that time I also discovered the Grateful Dead, Van Morrison, Neil Young, and Bob Marley. My whole musical horizon was very broadened at that point. I also should add that for most of my life I had sung in a choir, and continued to do so in college which probably had a significant influence on me as well. When I moved to Atlanta I discovered jazz and began listening heavily to Ella Fitzgerald, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Thelonious Monk, etc....This made an even bigger impact on me and then when I heard Nick Drake I was completely blown away. I would compare my writing to Joni Mitchell and Nick Drake in that I use very poetic lyrics, my songs tend to be somewhat melancholic and melodic, and I tend to use very strange, unorthodox chord progressions. I haven't used alot of alternate tunings but I have dropped both e's, dropped the high e to c once, and recently dropped b to a. I suppose since I am always coming up with really interesting chords in standard tuning I never saw much of a need to change tunings though it is something I would like to explore more. interesting stories about songs? I posted a story once before about this but I wrote a song about "The Lorax" the very week Dr. Suess died. His passing away really disturbed me and I sat down and wrote this song. I've also written several songs inspired by greek mythology in which I write from the perspective of actually being the person in the story and try to capture their passion and what they were feeling, kind of getting an impression of the myth as opposed to just reciting what happened. I also wrote a song entitled "Master of the Ring" about the Lord of the Rings, which I plan to release sometime next year, around the release of the motion picture. Anyway, I recorded and released my first cd earlier this year and have gotten excellent feedback from everyone who has listened to it. I hope to begin working on a second one soon. The first one is called Tangled and people tell me that it sounds beautiful which is great because I have had this incredible passion for music all my life and will keep playing and evolving as long as I can. I've really enjoyed what I've been writing recently. I seem to have caught a wave of inspiration. I will share some lyrics with you and also leave information on how to order a copy of my cd (for anyone from the JMDL I will also include a copy of a photo I took of a sunflower field near Bourges in France which turned out very cool) Three Days in Paris Fly me across the ocean, We'll stay in your country home. Take me away so that I can be free, Walking through sunflower fields, Biking down country roads. Fly me across the ocean, I'll build you a castle of love. Speak to me now while the moon hangs so high. Walking down cobblestone streets, So silent the moon, you and I. Three days in Paris, Don't know where they've gone. I'm thinking that I left the kitchen light on. I hopped on a plane but the plane wouldn't fly. I walked down to the river but, The river ran dry. Fly me across the ocean, I'll dress you in deep forest green. Walking along where the trees stand so tall, Casting their leaves to the ground, How they change when the fall comes around. Fly me across the ocean, We'll ride on the wings of the sun. Sinking so low in the pale lamplight, Beneath where the earth sits so still, While heaven is so high above. Three days in Paris, Don't know where they've gone. I can't remember why I came along. I got you a bird but the bird wouldn't sing. I climbed the cathedral but the bells wouldn't ring. Three days in Paris, Don't know where they've gone. I thought I was free but I could have been wrong. I called your home but the phone wouldn't ring. I wondered why I didn't feel anything. Fly me across the ocean, We'll stay in your country home. to order Tangled send $12.00(includes p&h) to Victor Johnson P.O.box 5673 Atlanta, Georgia 31107 thank you, Victor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 20:47:49 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << all right!!! any lucky tape recipients in the falkland/malvinas islands that can make a copy for me? wallyk >> Well Wally, if Hurricane Irene hits us Saturday morning, S.W. Florida may be floating down your way in which case they can make a copy for both of us. Jimmy np: B.J. Thomas "Raindrops Keep Fallin On My Head" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:49:38 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Millenium countdown to be six degree'd > > > Penny submitted: > > "Here's the next installment of KINK's millenium countdown submitted to > be Jonified. " > > 88 Joan Baez: I'm assuming there's an easier connection, but Joan butcher's > Dylan's "Simple Twist of Fate, and Bobby and Joni have performed on stage > together. Butchers, you say? I like Joan's cover of 'Simple Twist of Fate' and her Dylan impression beats Joni's hands down as far as I'm concerned. The simpler connection was staring you right in the face on the same album, Bob. 'Dida' sung by both Joans, and right purdy it is, too! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 18:18:39 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! > Bob wrote: > > > Kakki and Patrick, I'm gonna pop y'all's butts for that blatant gloating! > > Here I was all set to comment about the wonderful tape I got from John Low > > with the (7) Fairport Convention Joni covers, and now it hardly seems > worth > > mentioning... > > I would love to hear about the Fairport Convention Joni covers! > > Now you all, I don't think it was Patrick's or my intention to gloat or piss > people off. And it wasn't my (and I think I can speak for Bob here) or Bob's intention to upset you or Patrick or imply that either one of you were being bitches! You just settle down there young lady and smooth those ruffled feathers or your JMDL brothers are gonna have to whale on ya some! Seriously, though, we were just feeling envious and putting out feelers to see if somebody else out there would step up to the plate, right Bob? And somebody (who's name I will not divulge so don't ask, thank you very much!) has already offered to make copies for me. Heavens, Kakki, you've sent me so much music without asking for anything in return that I would never seriously take you to task for something like this! And I certainly didn't mean to cast any dispersions on Patrick either. I just want these tapes. Badly. And I figured the quickest way to get them was to say so. Sorry if my little bit of good-natured whining went amiss. So let's all just relax and enjoy our evening martinis, o-KAY??! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 18:31:19 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! ...and you're right to > tip the cap to the amazin' Simon, to whom we all owe a great debt! Even though we're not supposed to, I just have to second this! Simon has come up with some amazing music and is a wealth of information on a variety of subjects. Hats off to Simon! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 05:31:23 +0100 From: John van Tiel Subject: Joni's Jazz in Europe Simon's wonderful package (thanks Simon!) arrived in my mailbox, too. I'm willing to make copies for all European list members whose branch I've been in any of the past tape trees (and two or three other European JMDL'rs). Please e-mail me privately. Big John from Holland ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 00:47:51 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni's Jazz Tapes Surface!! > Well Wally, if Hurricane Irene hits us Saturday morning, S.W. Florida may be > floating down your way in which case they can make a copy for both of us. > > Jimmy well, i declare! you still having hurricanes this late in the year! it's past labor day, ladies! no hurricanes and no white shoes till after april, s'il vous plait!!! wallyk, [seriously, now. i hope irene spares you, jimmy. but you're welcome to float all the way to buenos aires. i'll give you and significant other shelter.] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 21:35:01 -0700 From: noble@taosnet.com Subject: What do I buy This is a cool topic! I go out and buy sight unseen or heard: besides Joni of course, Laura Nyro :-( Rickie Lee Jones Suzanne Vega Wendy Waldman Tori Amos Jonatha Brooke Jimmie Spheeris :-( Carly Simon David Crosby I revere musicians that write their own words and music and play their own instrments, preferably acoustic(naked music) just them and the guitar or piano. Tucker- out of lurk mode ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 22:49:52 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: an old new news Terry replied to Helen: <> Agreed!!! I LOVED this most interesting post. S., I hope you come back often to mess with our heads and sit us on our butts. ;-) BTW does "smarcaurele" stand for Sassy Mitch Answers Ritualistic Conversations and Ultimately Reminds Elequently: Likewise Evolve? Miles of smiles, Penny From: "smarcaurele" there was a chitter of fans howling like leaves and trash in the wet winter streets there was always a chitter of fans somewhere made me wonder what the hell was wrong with me and them assuming the hunt was held with the same enthusiasm as those that pursued embraced i wonder about the superficiality of the observations on the songs mixed with subjective interpretations as if that certified intimacy i laugh at those who think me harsh and somber i thank God with very little reverence that i am spared being the center of chatter i curse the devil for spurring on my curiosity, not of them not of they not of those of one whose sparkle deserves guarded shadows not another hand from another lafraneer taxis? shit every one is a doorman with a smile at Christmas! ****** protests of sweetness i look out upon the falling leaves amused by a skinny black cat feeding on the carcass of a ham bone i left it plenty of meat i'll feed it as long as the winter comes and goes as long as it comes and goes the sweetness is the independence the true lack of need of me the fear of me though it could scratch my eyes out the sweetness is watching unobserved of letting that cat in its own sweet time choose or not choose to lick the hand that's taken to feeding it sweetness is no bravado a little humility no reason to fear and sunlight warming the landscape in a measure balanced palitable surrending *** hi i am still around ** s. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #227 ****************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?