From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #205 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Friday, September 24 1999 Volume 01 : Number 205 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: HELLO JMDLs ["Mark or Travis" ] Donald Freed Epic & Me...... Trilogy of a relationship ["Happy The Man" <] Re: HELLO JMDLs [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Harry's House & HOSL ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Harry's House & HOSL [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Harry's House/ Centerpiece ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Harry's House/ Centerpiece [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Harry's House & HOSL [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Harry's House/ Centerpiece ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Harry's House & HOSL ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: James Taylor song & Joni? [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Jonifest Box Set ["Kakki" ] Re: Donald Freed Epic & Me...... Trilogy of a relationship ["Helen M. Adc] Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie ["Helen M. Adcock" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:52:44 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: HELLO JMDLs > Yes I do, I luvya ... Hey Sue! We love you too! Come out & play more often! Mark in Seattle (who misses one of the very first members of this discussion list, Sue McNamara - she was also the first person I ever discussed Joni with online, even *before* there was a JMDL) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:56:24 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Donald Freed Epic & Me...... Trilogy of a relationship MG said: > I think that I especially like the "relationship dilemma" of > "Love Puts." The > first part has them cuddled up with "just the lap of the lake..." My thoughts exactly. You literally start painting the picture: Just the lap of the lake and the firelight" And the lonely loon and the crescent moon I see there feet together up, on top of a table with part of the afghan covering their legs. Fire burning down near the edge of the water with the lip of the moons staring down at a lonely loon. It gives me goosebumps, along with the tears. > You move onto the second verse and the dude is exasperated: "why > aren't you > happy, you make me feel helpless when you get this way!" What can > she say? > She has alligators and she must survive. Yeah, almost why your busy playing around up there I am working my arse off. The beginning of the end if you ask me. > > She injects a bit of an obstacle with the words: "...some bad > dreams, even > love can erase." (being I huge fan of the healing powers of love, > (if you LET > it heal), I disagree with that line vehemently). I have to ponder this for awhile. > > The last part has the physical distance: "I wish you were with > me, the leaves > are electric...." But with these miles, I see her as finally > relaxing a bit > and being able to participate in the wooing dance: "I miss you > touch and your > lips so much, I long for our next embrace...." I am not sure who is saying what at the end there. Does the conversation come back to him. either way your are right awesome song. I am almost sure that Facelift is the first of the series. The "Stay in Touch, but those two could swap easily just because the lines in Stay in Touch seem to be at the beginning. The the old Christmas bonking of Face lift. Then " Loves puts". But I am definitely more partial to the lines in "Stay in Touch" Stay in Touch just reminds me of my lovely wife and my relationship some 19 years ago. I was dating someone who everybody loved but she took a job in Denver and Portland was so far away. So when Cheryl and I started dating it was almost incognito. I had a passion for her that I did not have for Suzie and yet the relationship was scary, in a exciting way. I wanted to believe our relationship was going to be permanent. But the aura of Suzie languished over the campus we were at she was the deep spiritual girl and Cheryl and my relationship was passion, we wanted so much for it to be right: ...So we mustn't rush Still, we're burning brightly Clinging like fire to fuel I'm grinning like a fool... I look back and these words echo our feelings for one another. It burned brightly, clinging like fire to fuel, grinning like fools. ...Part of this is permanent Part of this is passing So we must be loyal and wary Not to give away too much Til we build a firm foundation And empty out old habits Old habits... I could tell you stories, we knew what we wanted but it was going so fast. Suzie showed up two months before our marriage (I am skipping up here) to ask me if I was sure. Loyal and wary. Hours on empty out old habits. I grew up doing things I was not proud of, my wife can look back... My wife was the first women I had not slept with after dating for three months, other then Suzie. It was hard to give up old habits. ...During times like these The wise or influential They can bear the imperfections They can keep the money No doubt about it No doubt that's essential No doubt that's always been a tricky one for me So, we should just surrender Let fate and duty shape us Let light hearts remake us Let the worries hush In the middle of this continent In the middle of our time on Earth We perceive one another Stay in touch We should stay in touch Oh! Stay in touch... All, I can say is God if faithful... Thanks for sharing MG. Cheryl and I 18 years Sunday, she has remade me so many times. So, like you say it is hard to listen to these songs without the tears of our own. Peace, sweet peace, Craig NP: IN MY HEAD (Stay in Touch-with great home movies) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:11:51 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: HELLO JMDLs Oh, my goodness!!!!!! That is so coooooooool !!! Made my day! Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:45:19 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL Bob wrote: > That's a neat take on it, I never heard the sarcasm in Joni's vocalization, > just the "prettiness" of it, And I reply: I guess it's mostly in the way she sings 'Baby you're my centerpiece' the first time. She takes that Baaaby up a few notes and draws it out. Then there's something about the way she sings 'center-pee-eece' that makes me think she's mocking the lyric rather than carressing it. It also makes me think of 'The Hissing of Summer Lawns' - the man putting the woman up in that ranch house on a hill - a showcase for his 'centerpiece' or trophy wife. I guess I always thought the two songs were about the same people. Bob explains why he feels the song shows compassion for Harry & wife: Likewise, > if the wife or the husband was cheating, or abusing the other, or something > else, it would be tough to empathize. And I reply: I think there might be an implication that he is cheating or maybe has in the past in the lines about his watching 'those high-fashion girls'. I've also always wondered about the way Joni phrased that last line. Harry is remembering her from those days at the public swimming pool with her shining hair & shining skin. She reeled him in, but why? To tell him *like she did today* just what he could do with his house & his take-home pay. To me this implies that she told him to stick it way back then. Why did she change her mind? Was she teasing him? Playing hard to get? I think this couple wanted status, money, material things & all the outward trappings of respectability. They were the best looking most popular kids in their high school class. Both smart enough to get ahead in the world and both shallow & self-centered enough to be completely unable to sustain a real marriage or nurture a family. Now they're stuck with the mess they've made and don't have any idea of why they aren't happy. But instead, Joni shows us that they > were in love and had a better vision for their lives together, and they got > lost in what society's vision of them was supposed to be, which I think is > a more compassionate take. Geez, I guess I sound like a real hard-ass! That's the way I've always seen this song, though. Thanks to all for your very different takes! Mark in Seattle PS: I also think this song bears a strong resemblance to 'Snakes & Ladders' off of CMIARS and I would say pretty much the same things about the couple in that one. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:50:50 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL In a message dated 9/23/99 10:48:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << That's a neat take on it, I never heard the sarcasm in Joni's vocalization, > just the "prettiness" of it, >> I don't think "Centerpiece" is sarcastic so much as a flashback to a happier time for the woman, who had high expectations for her love and life that have not come to pass. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:52:38 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Harry's House/ Centerpiece > What really captures me about this song is, the > subject matter is so empty, but is presented with such > depth and literary clarity. I don't think too many > people wouldn't tank this song among Joni's finest > lyrically. Those lyrics are set on melodic lines so > gentle, that the music itself serves to lull you into > that same false security generated in the isolated > suburbs of the 1970s. > > Don Rowe Great comments from Don! I think you & I see the song in pretty much the same way. I certainly agree that the lyrics to this one are truly amazing and among Joni's finest. The imagery is rich and beautiful. The yellow schools of Taxi fishes swimming through the city traffic. Harry as Jonah in the ticking whale that is New York City. The helicopter on the Pan Am roof that becomes a dragonfly on a tomb. Paper people papering over their gut reactions. And the list goes on. Truly one of Joni's masterpieces! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 23:05:38 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry's House/ Centerpiece In a message dated 9/23/99 10:56:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << Harry as Jonah in the ticking whale that is New York City. >> I thought Jonah in the ticking whale was another taxi reference as Harry is swallowed up by a cab, whose meter makes the ticking sound. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 23:18:21 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL In a message dated 9/23/99 8:48:28 PM US Central Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << Geez, I guess I sound like a real hard-ass! >> Well...if the ass fits...:~D Just kidding ya Mark, as always I appreciate your insight. There's no right and wrongs with this kind of thing, and the REAL cool thing is now everytime I hear it I'll think back to these discussions and listen for different things, making my appreciation for her music grow all the more! Bob NP: Bruuuuuce, "Loose Ends" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:18:54 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Harry's House/ Centerpiece > << Harry as Jonah in the ticking whale that is New York City. >> > > I thought Jonah in the ticking whale was another taxi reference as Harry is > swallowed up by a cab, whose meter makes the ticking sound. > > Paul I > I hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense. I just thought of a whale as something huge - like the city. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:33:30 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL Bob said: > Well...if the ass fits...:~D > And I was just emailing Ashara that I'm sure everybody knows who those briefs belong to by now and they also know what my waist size is and that I wear cheap underwear! > Just kidding ya Mark, as always I appreciate your insight. There's no right > and wrongs with this kind of thing, and the REAL cool thing is now everytime > I hear it I'll think back to these discussions and listen for different > things, making my appreciation for her music grow all the more! My sentiments exactly, Bob. Ain't this a great place to hang out? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 23:34:36 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: James Taylor song & Joni? In a message dated 09/23/1999 3:49:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pmeyer@ibm.net writes: << "I see it in the surface of her skin, there's been a baby within; Given away in love. I see it in the little lines around her eyes, across her brow-- She'll be drifting away from me now. " What do you think? Could it be about Joni? Paul M >> Ohhhh, I think it could definately be Joni. Who else could it be about? Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:43:35 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Jonifest Box Set Wow, I just received 4 tapes today of the music performed at Jonifest and haven't stopped listening since 10 a.m. this morning. The music is absolutely astonishing from everyone who participated. I'm just blown away. This stuff could go directly on a commercial CD. There is not one mis-step among the bunch and every song is gorgeous and magical. Unbelievably amazing. Gotta thank Chuck and Michael big time for all their work in getting this down on tape. And mega thanks to the performers for giving this to us. WOW, oh wow. Kakki NP: Marian - The Wolf That Lives in Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:13:18 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Donald Freed Epic & Me...... Trilogy of a relationship I thought we'd discussed "Stay In Touch" some time ago, and the general feeling/concensus was that it was about her new-found relationship with Kilauren? Did I miss something? Helen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:15:44 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland Catman wrote: >On BYT, i had always been confuse as to why she would mention her father >in this song-I had assumed her father and left home when she was a kid. >On this list i discovered that was not so. So why the line 'took away my >old man'. Today it suddenly dawned on me she was taliking about her >boyfriend/husband. here, if someone refers to 'my old man' they are >referring to their father. Which makes me wonder what you thought of "My Old Man" from Blue - and the fact that "we don't need no piece of paper from the City Hall, keeping us tied and true". Incest, or an unsolved "paternity" question? Helen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:19:09 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Top Joni Tabloid Headlines ... Catherine wrote: >On the other hand, after my son was born, my next-door neighbour, who was >originally from New Zealand and is a nurse, asked me whether his "little >um-bi-LIKE-le" had fallen off yet. We tend to pronounce it "um-BILL-acle" >so it took me a few seconds to clue in to what she was talking about! > >(You say tomayto, I say tomahto, and all that jazz.) Just had to clarify this - whoever this person was, they do not speak like the rest of the New Zealand population! Umbilical is pronounced over here as "um-BILL-i-kill", as you pronouce it there, so I don't know where they got that one from! And we say tomahto. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:29:21 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie Mary wrote: >And do I know where the line should be drawn between what >is acceptable to be known of an artist's private life, and the parts that >should be off limits even for one in the public eye? Hell, no! And if >anyone has figured out the answer to *this* one, I'd love to hear it. I'll probably get flamed for this one, but I've always thought that anyone who "puts" themself in the public eye by becoming a performer, should "expect" people to want to know about their lives. I remember an interview with Jennifer Saunders (Edina from "Absolutely Fabulous") saying that she hated that part of the business, ie. being interviewed, recognised in the street, hassled for autographs, etc. but understood that it was "part of the job" of being a celebrity. And personally I've always thought that in order to do well in the entertainment industry, you have to be somewhat conceited, and hence like the attention, or you'd never make it. There always seems to be far more bad press than good. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but if no one cared about the private lives of famous people, there'd be no market for biographies, autobographies, and even the "trashy mags" that print complete crap! No one is going to want to read MY autobiography (not that I've written one) but if Joni published one tomorrow, how many Jimdlers could say they wouldn't want to read it! And (bad as it may be) how many have read Brian Hinton's book?! Helen ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #205 ****************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?