From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #204 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, September 23 1999 Volume 01 : Number 204 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni in the tabloids [CaTGirl627@aol.com] James Taylor song & Joni? [pmeyer ] Re: Donald Freed Epic - TTT relationship cycle songs [MGVal@aol.com] Joni's "idols," was Reply to Gina, and a movie [LLDeMerle ] Re: Joni's "idols," was Reply to Gina, and a movie [LLDeMerle ] Re: DED Interview ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Harry's House & HOSL ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Joni Sleeves ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: songbook with loose pages! HELP! [Jerry Notaro ] RE: Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie (SJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: Joni Sleeves ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Joni in the tabloids ["Catherine McKay" ] RE: Joni Sleeves [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: Joni's "idols," was Reply to Gina, and a movie ["Catherine McKay" ] RE: Harry's House/ Centerpiece ["David Greenspoon" ] RE: HELLO JMDLs [Anne Sandstrom ] RE: Harry's House/ Centerpiece [Don Rowe ] Ray's Dad's Cadillac [Martin Giles ] Re: Here we go again..... [Martin Giles ] Re: Ray's Dad's Cadillac [Don Rowe ] Re: SIQUOMB ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Harry's House [David Wright ] Re: Ray's Dad's Cadillac ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Harry's House ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Harry's House [David Wright ] Harry's House/Centerpiece [evian ] RE: Harry's House ["Brett Code" ] Re: Harry's House [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Here we go again..... [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Harry's House [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Harry's House ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Ray's Dad's Cadillac [catman ] Harry's House [Medric Faulkner ] hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland [catman ] Re: Harry's House & HOSL [David Wright ] Re: Harry's House [catman ] Re: Joni Sleeves (Mingus) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Joni Sleeves [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Harry's House & HOSL [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: James Taylor song & Joni? ["Mark or Travis" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:24:28 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni in the tabloids In a message dated 9/22/1999 6:47:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jamie_zubairi@hotmail.com writes: << Someone on the list didn't know about the 'Joni and The Kicking Maid' incident. >> Neither did I so thanks for sharing. And by the way I have this great shirt but can not remember what the anagram means again.... Catgirl the loser!! Siquombe..I promise I will write it 50 times to remember! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:41:39 -0700 From: pmeyer Subject: James Taylor song & Joni? This might be way off, but I thought I'd pose the question to the group: My daughter, a big James Taylor fan, wonders if a song he did on the One Man Dog album, entitled New Tune, is about Joni. The album came out in 1972, and the lyrics of the song, a short and haunting melody, are: "I see it in the surface of her skin, there's been a baby within; Given away in love. I see it in the little lines around her eyes, across her brow-- She'll be drifting away from me now. " What do you think? Could it be about Joni? Paul M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:28:22 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Donald Freed Epic - TTT relationship cycle songs In a message dated 9/22/99 7:42:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cjenkins@austin.rr.com writes: << ut the relationships in those are so strong and prevalent that I wonder how much each song speaks of a time in their relationship. Beginning, middle & end. >> When I listen to TTT, those are pretty much the three songs, (along with the light hearted "Crazy Cries"), that I really enjoy. I can tell you that Michael Paz's rendition of "Love Puts On A New Face," had me in tears. It was beautiful, haunting and incredibly poignant. I think that I especially like the "relationship dilemma" of "Love Puts." The first part has them cuddled up with "just the lap of the lake..." It's sweet, but even there, he's losing her. While he is busy with wooing, "You're as young as the night," it seems to me that she is not reflecting a wooing way back at him as much as marveling at being away from business interruptions. I get the feeling that he has to yank her back to romance somehow. You move onto the second verse and the dude is exasperated: "why aren't you happy, you make me feel helpless when you get this way!" What can she say? She has alligators and she must survive. She injects a bit of an obstacle with the words: "...some bad dreams, even love can erase." (being I huge fan of the healing powers of love, (if you LET it heal), I disagree with that line vehemently). To be fair, she tries to soften it with "darling, you can't slay these beasts of prey," instead of "you moron! stop whining about me!" But I think that she's older and, as with all of us, her experiences with life has unfortunately built up some callouses. The last part has the physical distance: "I wish you were with me, the leaves are electric...." But with these miles, I see her as finally relaxing a bit and being able to participate in the wooing dance: "I miss you touch and your lips so much, I long for our next embrace...." Interesting how, (again to me), in the stanzas where they seem to be able to be in the same room, I sense a distance in the woman, but when he is removed from the scene, I sense her relaxing and being able to participate a bit more in romancing the relationship. And yet, within that push-me/pull-me, she ends each stanza with "every day, love puts on a new face." It is a bit of a hopeful statement. But I wonder if it is hopeful with a firm faith in love or is it hopeful with the "someday I'm SURE I'm gonna win the lottery" faith? There are times when I see a "buck up and put your best face forward" sentiment in those words instead of love getting up and facing each day with eager, hopeful and positive expectations. I love this song and one reason is that I am fascinated by the feeling of wanting to sink into love, but just.......not.......able........to........let........it.....all.......go. MG np: "Love Puts on a New Face" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:55:14 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Joni's "idols," was Reply to Gina, and a movie Kakki, Unless I am completely brain dead (which I warn *is* a possibility given this week's events,) apologies for your posts are unnecessary, that is not to say unapPREciated... since when has there been too much sensitivity in the world? :) Anyway, your posts were fine and I like this: >I do think, like Michael pointed out, that if Joni *is* listening, she is >mostly laughing her ass off. At least, I hope she is! ;-D > >Kakki She'd probably think "Twisted and crazy people expendin' alla this energy talkin' about me!" I'm thinkin'...who Joni's "idols" were, if any? Anyone know? LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:59:56 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's "idols," was Reply to Gina, and a movie In a message dated 9/23/99 4:52:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, de_merle@iagora.com writes: << 'm thinkin'...who Joni's "idols" were, if any? Anyone know? >> Well, Georgia O'Keefe is one, I'm sure! Not only did she admire her work, it seems that Joni also admired the path she carved out for herself. How she seemed to be a fulfilled and contented person without going the "housewife/mother" routine. MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:13:45 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: James Taylor song & Joni? At 12:41 AM 9/23/99 -0700, Paul wrote: > "I see it in the surface of her skin, there's been a baby within; These are really the words? I have this LP and have loved it for years and years, but I never "caught" that (or if I did, I have since forgotten... ) LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:15:29 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: Joni's "idols," was Reply to Gina, and a movie Well..that fits. I'm a Beatrice Wood fan, myself.... >Well, Georgia O'Keefe is one, I'm sure! Not only did she admire her work, it >seems that Joni also admired the path she carved out for herself. How she >seemed to be a fulfilled and contented person without going the >"housewife/mother" routine. > >MG LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:58:57 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie I enjoyed your e-mail and agree in many ways with the privacy issue (despite having participated in this thread myself!) I'd like to think that Joni and Kilauren would recognize that everything that was said, IMO anyway, was said with great respect. No one can second-guess anyone, and circumstances alter cases, so what might have happened in one circumstance could have been quite different in another. I think many people identified with the courage of someone making a decision to do what she felt, at the time, was best her her, as well as for her daughter. You wrote: "This was brought home to me in force this weekend when I saw the movie "Hilary and Jackie" on video [...], the story of the great cellist Jacqueline Du Pre, her career, and her often turbulent relationship with her sister, Hilary." The sad part about this is that Jacquie herself (being dead) had no say in it, so it's hard to know whether she might have participated in or agreed to such a story or not. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:01:39 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: DED Interview Butting in here with more questions about trees: Wally kindly pointed me in the direction to read info about trees, but I still don't get it. How does one participate in this? If I wanted to get copies of any of these items, who would I talk to? The site seems to indicate there are no trees happening right now, so does that mean you can't get it? If I missed something on the site, can someone let me know? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:17:35 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL Interesting take on Harry's House where previously you had seen it as "a woman-as-hero, man-as-villain song", and then changed your mind. I agree with your new version - always thought it was one of those things where people meet and marry with great expecations that they're going to have the perfect house, the perfect job and so on and that they'll always stay in love and will always be young and beautiful. Then reality hits - maybe you do get the nice house and the good job, but you have to work for this and by working so hard to get all this "stuff", the measure of material success, your relationship suffers. You have your perfect kids, but you're always nagging at them to get down off the furniture and so on, and you wonder whatever became of that young girl at the swimming pool or that young man with a dream. You might then easily see yourself as the victim of the other, but sometimes things just happen. People change, they drift apart, their expecations change. Sometimes they have to make a choice between the career and the marriage (but why? in most cases, people know when they walk into something what the other person is about - the agree that the career is important, but then get upset when the other actually sticks to it) and the whole thing falls apart just when they've reached the pinnacle of what they once thought was what would bring them true happiness. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:36:04 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Joni Sleeves On CMIARS, Jason mentions "gorgeous colours and the coolest poncho.... :-)" Do you suppose Joni still needs that poncho? D'ya think she'd mind giving it to me? Will she ever have a garage sale? Maybe at the same time as we all descend on her place for a big Joni gathering? The poncho's mine! Called it! cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:46:56 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: songbook with loose pages! HELP! CaTGirl627@aol.com wrote: > Hi friends! > A few years ago I ordered *For the Roses* songbook from this place (can't > remember where..figures!) It was there last one (sound familiar Kakki?) > Anyway, when I got this book the first 20 pages where loose and now they are > completely out meaning that the binding in some songbooks really suck! Is > there anyway I can either get it fixed or fix it myself using a SPECIAL kind > of glue or am I stuck with a loose songbook? The book is in MINT cond. > otherwise. You can use a method called "tipping" the pages into the original binding which is very cheap to do yourself, but very time consuming. We do it here at the library all the time. But for a songbook, which is meant to be used, it may not last except for preservation purposes. It is very common with songbooks to lose their pages from them being flattened all the time. If you plan on really using the book it may be best to punch hole the pages, reinforce the holes. and put it in a binder. That is what I do. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:55:12 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Harry's House David says, "I've always thought the last verse (and the teasing "When will you be home Harry?"s) suggested that the wife was going to take a lover (without telling Harry)." Interesting, veddy interesting. I hear the "When will you be home's" as a nag. Not a deliberate nag, she doesn't realize she's doing it, but the nag of someone who is frustrated. She's getting lonely and the kids are driving her nuts (ever been stuck at home with the kids all day? Yikes!) I don't think this woman would have the time to take a lover. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:24:30 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: Re: Reply to Gina, and a movie (SJC) Catherine wrote, first quoting an earlier post of mine: ""You wrote: "This was brought home to me in force this weekend when I saw the movie "Hilary and Jackie" on video [...], the story of the great cellist Jacqueline Du Pre, her career, and her often turbulent relationship with her sister, Hilary." The sad part about this is that Jacquie herself (being dead) had no say in it, so it's hard to know whether she might have participated in or agreed to such a story or not." Yes, that's true, and I realized later that I could have made that clearer. Certainly some of her survivors made known *their* disapproval, arguably considering her interests (at least, as they perceived them) in doing so. But at least this is--thank the heavens above--*one* issue that often comes up in considering just how much privacy an artist's personal life should be afforded that we **don't** have to examine directly on the JMDL!!!! Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:22:21 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: James Taylor song & Joni? Paul heard: <> Wow! As many times as i"ve heard that record, I never "heard" that lyric...sure sounds like it is...good catch, Paul! I had always been partial to the "Make my bed out of wonder bread, spread some mustard on my head..." song (Chili Dog). Bob NP: Traffic, "Withering Tree" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:00:06 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: James Taylor song & Joni? In a message dated 9/23/1999 10:25:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bob.Muller@fluor.com writes: << Wow! As many times as i"ve heard that record, I never "heard" that lyric...sure sounds like it is...good catch, Paul! >> I love this JT song, and even play it! But , I never studied the lyrics. I think you're right on, Paul! Terry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:21:12 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: James Taylor song & Joni? << Wow! As many times as i"ve heard that record, I never "heard" that lyric...sure sounds like it is...good catch, Paul! >> I love this JT song, and even play it! But , I never studied the lyrics. I think you're right on, Paul! Terry Which makes me wonder how many others on the list are just like me. Joni is the only one I have ever really paid close attention to all the lyrics of all the songs. Other artists, maybe a few songs of their's I really ponder, but no one else have I ever taken to heart for their entire catalog like the Joan. Penny ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:25:32 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL Mark comments: <> That's a neat take on it, I never heard the sarcasm in Joni's vocalization, just the "prettiness" of it, which made me think Harry was thinking how his life would imitate the song at some time in the past. It is certainly an ironic inclusion either way. Especially when we hear in the wife's stressed out head only the "nothing's any good" part of it... <> "Yellow checkers for the kitchen, Climbing ivy for the bath" were HER idea, not his. I would guess her lust for things and her "House and Gardens" type home pressured him to climb the corporate ladder just as much as he pressured himself to do the same. <> I don't think you can read them in any other way, to me they're a part of *his* vision, or it could be Joni as narrator since the next piece is definitely narration of the situation. << Maybe Steve & Bob could tell us why they think Joni is showing understanding & compassion for the characters in this song?>> I think the inclusion of "Centerpiece" sets up the contrast; obviously the insert tells how they *wanted* things to be as opposed to the reality of how things are...the contrast makes me feel empathy for these characters. Had Joni set it up where she married him for his money, or he married her for her social status or whatever, then I would feel no empathy. Likewise, if the wife or the husband was cheating, or abusing the other, or something else, it would be tough to empathize. But instead, Joni shows us that they were in love and had a better vision for their lives together, and they got lost in what society's vision of them was supposed to be, which I think is a more compassionate take. Good discussion...HOSL tunes almost always seem to be... Bob NP: Townshend/Lane, "Misunderstood" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:04:30 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: Joni Sleeves Penny says, quoting Joni, "...it was really heavy, like a sherman (tank) really, if we had been in like a Pinto we'd been totalled." (said with a really heavy Canadian accent)". So, like, Canadians don't have accents, eh. :) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:09:13 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Joni Sleeves Kakki say, "I want to hit my head on a windshield everytime I'm reminded of this ;-D It happened directly across the street from me at MOCA (Museum of Contemporary Art) - but since it was long before Joni list, internet and inside scoop and information, I missed it. Arrrrr...... Shame on you. Rubber-necker. Ambulance chaser. :) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:19:04 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Joni in the tabloids CatGirl says: "I have this great shirt but can not remember what the anagram means again.... Catgirl the loser!! Siquombe..I promise I will write it 50 times to remember!" I've got to admit I was disappointed when I found out what it meant (that was just recently on either jmdl.com or jonimitchell.com) - and here I thought it might be some kind of West Coast Indian word. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:19:51 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: RE: Joni Sleeves Catherine wrote: >>So, like, Canadians don't have accents, eh. :) That wonderful accent was one of the most memorable things about that short interview. ;-) I've heard Joni speak so many times, but on that day her accent really stood out for some reason. She also spoke of her painting influences and process, if I recall. If I can find the interview, I'll post all of what she said. And on another one of your posts this morning I have to thank you, Catherine, for starting my day out with a great big laugh. Asking if anal retentive took a hyphen had me ROTFL! ;-D Peace ya'll Penny ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:30:21 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Joni's "idols," was Reply to Gina, and a movie Kakki said: "I do think, like Michael pointed out, that if Joni *is* listening, she is mostly laughing her ass off. At least, I hope she is." All I can say is, I wish it WERE possible to laugh your ass off - I've got a few unwanted pounds I'd willingly relinquish! :D cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:36:30 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: Little Green (JM interview excerpt from RS) The good Rev. Vince opined, in a post I'll quote at length because he said this so well: "I agree with what MG said about the Rolling Store interview. Joni owes no one anything and certainly doesn't have to answer every question about her personal life withg every detail. Actually, reading the excerpt posted, I thought it gave a very good explanation (and very touching) about why she placed her child for adoption. Joni's explanation - read it again - of why she didn't have a child speaks of all the reasons that she placed her child for adoption. I was quite moved... and do not think Joni was throwing people off a path that was not theirs to walk... I think she was saying with great personal grace why she did what she did." Vince, I agree with you 1000%. Emily Dickinson wrote, "Tell the truth, but tell it slant." I think Joni was "slanting" here by omission to protect Kilauren, Kilauren's adoptive parents, herself, and the integrity of the choice she made all those years ago. However, that doesn't make her words one iota less truthful. It's funny: I well remember reading this interview when it was first published. I had been intensely discovering Joni's music for about a year, and recall thinking how very sad it was that one who appeared to appreciate so well just what parenthood was all about would probably never have that experience herself. Then, years later, I was elated to discover that this was not quite the case. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:23:49 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: SIQUOMB At 04:19 PM 9/23/99 GMT, Catherine McKay wrote: >I've got to admit I was disappointed when I found out what it meant "Disappointed?" I've always thought Joni's creation of "SIQUOMB" as an acronym and a business endeavor was rather ingenious. As we've discussed here before, this publishing company she created, and named Siquomb, has enabled her to fare much better (financially) than many of her peers who signed away most or all of their rights to unscrupulous agents and/or companies. The fact that Joni enjoys healthy royalties to this day is testament to her business acumen and proves that indeed She Is Queen Undisputedly Of Mind Beauty. Of course the creative side of her mind ain't bad either. :-) In addition, I rather like the way folks around this list have taken to using "SIQUOMB" as a nickname for Joni Mitchell. I find it warm and complimentary and I think she would too. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:22:27 PDT From: "David Greenspoon" Subject: RE: Harry's House/ Centerpiece Cat Girl wrote: "I always looked at poor Harry married to a women who only wanted him for his money.  Being lost in House and Gardens with all his money to spend it on for yellow checkers in the kitchen and climbing ivy for the bath and then all she can do is nag him. When you gonna be home Harry and then yelling at the kids, "Get down off of there", and then thinking I sure am sick of that sofa.  I wonder just how old that sofa was?  A few month maybe a year.  ...just what she could do with Harry's house and Harry's take home pay....." I agree I always saw the song HOSL as a relation that was bad for the womaan and contrasting that was Harry's House/Centerpiece with the man as the person who should get out of the relationship. David ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:28:35 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: HELLO JMDLs Yes I do, I luvya ... **/ \\ ' \ \#######\=--###### */ /"\! "" \#\ \##############//" *| \\#\ \ \#*\ \####\ /*# / .= \"""#"\""#/"" |" ..##/" \..\ ##==-"""/# | \############# ;\ /############# **\#/ _ /####/ |#* \##### */ |./***-/ * ** /* "##### * " *' *** o /##### \ _ ** =/######## \ . .==#***#### ############# \ ## ../ /############## \ ##===*/*" /################ \ *##/" /################## \ ../"###################### \ /########################### \..../###################/ \########## "****#################/ \######### \##############/ \### \### laughin & \############/ |###* |## cryin \########### #/ |# you know it's \##########. /## the same release ... \########## ## I'm just in a good mood today...return to your regularly scheduled Jonithon ...!!! ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ weekend email address: suemc16@webtv.net "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:04:55 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: RE: HELLO JMDLs Wow Susan!!! This is SO impressive!!! Do you think you can do the much aligned cover of DED ;-) (that comment for Bob M...)LOL Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:19:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: RE: Harry's House/ Centerpiece "Harry's House/Centerpiece" has always struck me as cutting both ways. Like a John Cheever short story, there aren't a whole lot of sympathetic characters. Harry and the wife are equally shallow ... she's caught in House and Gardens ... he's tunnel visioned on his next promotion. Their lives are as thin as the paper on their walls, and they're raising a family with awarness and responsibilies just about as deep. This is partly her fault, partly Harry's. What really captures me about this song is, the subject matter is so empty, but is presented with such depth and literary clarity. I don't think too many people wouldn't tank this song among Joni's finest lyrically. Those lyrics are set on melodic lines so gentle, that the music itself serves to lull you into that same false security generated in the isolated suburbs of the 1970s. Don Rowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:24:22 +0100 From: Martin Giles Subject: Ray's Dad's Cadillac Marian The first time I heard Ray's Dad's Cadillac, I thought it was a song about levitation! A belated Happy Birthday... Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:19:57 +0100 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: Here we go again..... IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/22/99 8:31:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > mlg@ukonline.co.uk writes: > > << My Mum (who is a great Joni fan) told me at the weekend that she always > imagined Joni and companions at the Chinese Cafe playing Mah Jong... > > Down at the Chinese Cafe > We'd be spittin' on our dice... > > Except that the pieces in mah jong are called "tiles," not dice. > > Paul I Paul And the things you roll to decide the who is Wind of the Round and where to make the Golden Wall are dice. Not tiles. Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:56:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Ray's Dad's Cadillac - --- Martin Giles wrote: > The first time I heard Ray's Dad's Cadillac, I > thought it was a song > about levitation! Well as they'd say in Catherine's neck of the woods, "Oh ... leave me hangin', eh!?" I'm trying to think of what you could have heard that made you think this. So come on, give it up, the suspense is killin' me! Don Rowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:51:10 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: SIQUOMB Scott says, says he: >"Disappointed?" I've always thought Joni's creation of "SIQUOMB" as >an >acronym... Well, there ya go - I hate them derned acronyms, 'specially when a) I can't remember what they mean and b) it seems that the name was created first to "sound" good, and then the words all the letters stand were forced into position to fit the acronym. (I'm not saying that's what happened here - I do like the sound and look of SIQUOMB - maybe she didn't need the U though. How do you pronounce it? Is it like Seacombe (seekum)? or See-Kwome?) >and a business endeavor was rather ingenious. As we've discussed >here before, this publishing company she created, and named Siquomb, >has >enabled her to fare much better (financially) than many of her >peers who >signed away most or all of their rights to unscrupulous >agents and/or >companies. I agree with you there - and she got away with it too, which is even better! Every now and then, the good guys actually do win! cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:54:43 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Harry's House On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Catherine McKay wrote: > She's getting lonely and the kids are driving > her nuts (ever been stuck at home with the kids all day? Yikes!) I don't > think this woman would have the time to take a lover. But it never says that she has kids. (That line about "paper wives and paper kids" doesn't refer specifically to her.) - --David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:06:34 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Ray's Dad's Cadillac >--- Martin Giles wrote: > > > The first time I heard Ray's Dad's Cadillac, I > > thought it was a song > > about levitation! > And Don said: >Well as they'd say in Catherine's neck of the woods, >"Oh ... leave me hangin', eh!?" I'm trying to think >of what you could have heard that made you think this. > So come on, give it up, the suspense is killin' me! > Well, thank YOU! I didn't get it either, but I was afraid to ask. Good thing one of us is brave. Is it the "Ray" bit, like ... HOLY JUMPIN'! I just got it - "Raise Dad's Cadillac"!!! Grooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:08:35 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Harry's House > > She's getting lonely and the kids are driving > > her nuts (ever been stuck at home with the kids all day? Yikes!) > > I >don't think this woman would have the time to take a lover. (I said, and you said...) >But it never says that she has kids. (That line about "paper wives >and paper kids" doesn't refer specifically to her.) > Then, who is she yelling "Get down offa there?" at while she's asking Harry when he's going to be home? You don't have kids, do you... cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:42:25 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Harry's House On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Catherine McKay wrote: > Then, who is she yelling "Get down offa there?" at while she's asking Harry > when he's going to be home? You don't have kids, do you... No, I don't. But we had to yell that at the dogs (though Joni, of course, is a cat person) many a time in my family. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:43:41 -0600 From: evian Subject: Harry's House/Centerpiece Don Rowe hit the nail on the head with: > "Harry's House/Centerpiece" has always struck me as > cutting both ways. Like a John Cheever short story, > there aren't a whole lot of sympathetic characters. > Harry and the wife are equally shallow ... she's > caught in House and Gardens ... he's tunnel visioned > on his next promotion. > I have always likened Harry's House/Centerpiece with Cheever. Every time I read Cheever, HOSL enters into my mind. Actually, I taught Cheever's "The Swimmer" last week, and made mention to both HOSL and the movie "The Ice Storm" as further representations of "suburbia in hell". Both Harry and the Wife are unsympathetic, and the "When will you be home, Harry?" seems to me to be the stereotype of the nagging wife yelling at the "Trapped" husband. However, ole hubby is no saint, it works both ways. He longs for the way she looked in school, and wants all the beauty and fun and sex appeal that is now an unrealistic expectation because of the passing of time, the children, the social climbing, etc. He wants things simple like when he was a teenager without forfeiting his social standing or responsibilities. But he can't have it both ways. The song would make a good Judy Blume or Erica Jong novel if taken from the Wife's point of view. Actually, HOSL would make a great movie. Evian, who is kicking himself for not bringing in HOSL to help teach Cheever.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:45:07 -0600 From: "Brett Code" Subject: RE: Harry's House While I agree that she is probably speaking to her children, it could be her dog. I've had to say that more than once to mine, and I've even had to elevate my voice from time to time (and felt guilty about it afterwards). If the gold-digger theme is the right one (to the extent any lyrical exegesis can be right or wrong), it makes a bit of sense that it be a pet, as there are gold-digger wives who won't/don't have children. Brett Catherine wrote: Then, who is she yelling "Get down offa there?" at while she's asking Harry when he's going to be home? You don't have kids, do you... cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:48:34 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry's House Catherine replies: << Then, who is she yelling "Get down offa there?" at while she's asking Harry when he's going to be home? You don't have kids, do you... >> One would assume she is talking about kids, but it could be dogs, cats, Ashara's sssssssssssssssnakes, or even a lover. Whatever you'd like to think ;) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:03:22 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Here we go again..... In a message dated 9/23/99 2:40:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlg@ukonline.co.uk writes: << And the things you roll to decide the who is Wind of the Round and where to make the Golden Wall are dice. Not tiles. Martin. >> Thanks, I apparently forgot that part of mah jongg, or my mom's friends didn't play it that way when I would fill in as a youngster. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:04:36 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry's House In a message dated 9/23/99 2:56:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, David.Wright@oberlin.edu writes: << On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Catherine McKay wrote: > She's getting lonely and the kids are driving > her nuts (ever been stuck at home with the kids all day? Yikes!) I don't > think this woman would have the time to take a lover. But it never says that she has kids. (That line about "paper wives and paper kids" doesn't refer specifically to her.) --David >> David, Who is she yelling at to "get down off of that sofa!"? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:26:50 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Harry's House some anal-retentive brat, perhaps? wallyk - -----Original Message----- De: IVPAUL42@aol.com Para: David.Wright@oberlin.edu ; cateri@hotmail.com CC: joni@smoe.org Fecha: Jueves 23 de Septiembre de 1999 14:25 Asunto: Re: Harry's House >In a message dated 9/23/99 2:56:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >David.Wright@oberlin.edu writes: > ><< On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Catherine McKay wrote: > > She's getting lonely and the kids are driving > > her nuts (ever been stuck at home with the kids all day? Yikes!) I don't > > think this woman would have the time to take a lover. > > But it never says that she has kids. (That line about "paper wives > and paper kids" doesn't refer specifically to her.) > > --David >> > >David, > Who is she yelling at to "get down off of that sofa!"? > >Paul I > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:45:03 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Ray's Dad's Cadillac aaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!! Martin Giles wrote: > Marian > > The first time I heard Ray's Dad's Cadillac, I thought it was a song > about levitation! > > A belated Happy Birthday... > > Martin. - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:49:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Medric Faulkner Subject: Harry's House In the mid 70's when everyone else in the dorm was listening to Peter Frampton, I had a better sound system so I tried to drown them out with Harry's House and The Jungle Line. Popularitiy wasn't that impt. to me. I've always thought it was one of her best stories. I thought Brian Blade really colored it nicely on last year's tour. Medric __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:54:06 +0100 From: catman Subject: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland Went off to Norwich today to collect Haley from her honeymoon. I listened to the Hissing Demos which I really enjoy. I think her voice on this is the best i have heard it-ever. Even better than on HOSL. I also listened to LOTC. I noticed something on Woodstock I hadn't before-part of the backing singing sound like that on Song for Sharon. On BYT, i had always been confuse as to why she would mention her father in this song-I had assumed her father and left home when she was a kid. On this list i discovered that was not so. So why the line 'took away my old man'. Today it suddenly dawned on me she was taliking about her boyfriend/husband. here, if someone refers to 'my old man' they are referring to their father. I also really like the version of Dreamland on this cd.(the hissing demo's) - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:55:17 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Harry's House you deserve a spanked bottom for that one! LOL!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:00:03 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL Mark in Seattle wrote: > < understanding & compassion for the characters in this song?>> Well, I'll try to tell you why I think that. I think maybe a lot of it has to do with the music -- it (like much of HOSL) has a kind of lazy emotional heat, to me, and the end of the last verse after the Centerpiece part is particularly sultry. And I agree with Don Rowe that the music has a gentleness -- for example, how the edgy, "hard" chords (with that shrill muted trumpet) on the "high fashion girls" et al. parts "soften" into the "skinny black models" part. And Joni's singing (throughout the album, really) is so warm and expressive. So I don't feel like Joni puts an emotional distance between herself and the characters with the music (the way the music of "The Jungle Line," on the other hand, does suggest that distance to me). There are certain details in the lyrics that suggest compassion to me, too, like the line "*lost* in house and gardens." Several aspects of the lyrics interestingly recall other Joni songs for me: for example, the taxi trip in "Harry's House" vs. the taxi trip in "Nathan LaFraneer" (I think Harry is no less conscious of his alienation than Joni is of her own in "Nathan"), or "caught up in the lights and the fishnet windows of Bloomingdale's" vs. "Hejira"'s "in the mirror of a modern bank/from the window of a hotel room," or "the plane sets down/he takes his baggage off the carousel/he takes a taxi into town" vs. "Black Crow"'s "I took the plane to a taxi and the taxi to a train." I don't see Joni as blaming either Harry or the wife for their situation (though it does occur to me that she doesn't give the wife a name like she does Harry). I don't think the wife's a "gold-digger." I think Joni suggests that, for the woman, settling down to make the home while the husband advances up the corporate ladder is kind of the American dream -- something that society *expects* her to do (just as the women in other songs on HOSL, Scarlett for example, struggle with others' expectations of them -- as perhaps Joni has: "Dora says have children..."), that's supposed to be fulfilling. I don't think Harry and his wife are *themselves* unsympathetic or shallow or empty. I think, rather, that they're trapped in a shallow, empty *lifestyle* -- and they feel it. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:03:40 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Harry's House Ooops sorry to all concerned that was supposed to go just to wally. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:13:53 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Sleeves (Mingus) In a message dated 9/22/99 2:35:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << Now that you remind me of Mingus though, yeah, people are uncomfortable with both of those albums. But it seems that DED gets easily picked on compared to Mingus, which people at least respect, especially Joni's courageousness in making it, even if there's not much affection or appreciation for it. >> I really like Mingus. It seems a bit forced in places but it had to have been an excruciatingly difficult project to pull off. That's exactly the feel it has: that of a highly ambitious project. My top five favorites: Hejira, DJRD, HoSL, FTR and NRH feel more like labors of love. Those records are just so open to personal interpretation and soul searching. So I agree with Debra about there being less affection though not less appreciation, in my opinion. Still, I play Mingus from beginning to end far more frequently than I do CMIRS and WTRF, where I skip my least favorite songs. Take care, Gina NPIMH: Waterloo Sunset ... Steve Dulson please take note! :} ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:29:11 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: hissing demos, BYT, woodstock and dreamland In a message dated 9/23/1999 4:57:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, catman@apso.screaming.net writes: << On BYT, i had always been confuse as to why she would mention her father in this song-I had assumed her father and left home when she was a kid. >> It's interesting that we've talked so much about Myrtle on this list, but what is her father like? What's her relationship with him now? I don't even know his name! Terry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:30:52 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Sleeves Bob joked: << < everyone's uncomfortable with.>> > > I would say that Mingus is the true BLACK sheep in the family...DED is more > like a white techno-sheep with a bad perm! :~D >> and Debra replied: Oh, no, no, no, no, I wasn't thinking of a racial thing at all. You know what I meant, although I guess the term "black sheep" needs to be replaced with something else. I know you were making a joke; I just don't find it funny. I think Bob just can't bring himself to forgive Joni for that bad perm, that's all. ; } Take care, Gina NPIMH: Waterloo Sunset.......stiiiiiiiiiiiilllllll ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:40:27 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry's House & HOSL In a message dated 9/22/99 6:19:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steve@psitech.com writes: << Having a chance to have a good listen to the HOSL demo recordings (thanks to all who were responsible for getting them into our hands). >> How can I get a copy? Don't everybody step up and volunteer at once! Gina P.S. Pleeeeeeeeeese??? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:49:28 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: James Taylor song & Joni? > This might be way off, but I thought I'd pose the question to the group: > > My daughter, a big James Taylor fan, wonders if a song he did on the One > Man Dog album, entitled New Tune, is about Joni. The album came out in > 1972, and the lyrics of the song, a short and haunting melody, are: > > "I see it in the surface of her skin, there's been a baby within; > Given away in love. > I see it in the little lines around her eyes, across her brow-- > She'll be drifting away from me now. " > > What do you think? Could it be about Joni? Wow. I don't think I know this song. It sounds like it certainly could be about Joni. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #204 ****************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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