From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #198 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, September 21 1999 Volume 01 : Number 198 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni Covers Beam me up ["Kelly Loughran" ] Re: little green / let the wind carry me ["Helen M. Adcock" ] re: little green [Robert Holliston ] Re: little green / let the wind carry me [MGVal@aol.com] RE: Good vs. Evil (vljc) [Janene Otten ] RE: little green... [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: Kilauren, and "a baby" [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: little green... ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: little green... (and introduction) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Re[2]: Photos ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: little green... ["Catherine McKay" ] Southern Comfort ["Paul Castle" ] Re: little green / let the wind carry me ["P. Henry" ] Re: BOHO Dance ["Bill Dollinger" ] Re: Joni Covers [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: little green... (SJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: little green... ["Catherine McKay" ] Best album covers ever [Bounced Message ] Joni Covers [evian ] Joni's Covers [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Little Green [Steve Dulson ] Re: little green [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: little green... (and introduction) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: little green... [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Joni's Covers [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Joni's Covers [catman ] RE: Hello ["patrick leader" ] Joni in the tabloids [MGVal@aol.com] Little Green [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Little Green [catman ] Re: Little Green ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: little green... ["Kakki" ] Fwd: little green... [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Little Green [Dflahm@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:03:45 PDT From: "Kelly Loughran" Subject: Re: Joni Covers Beam me up Hah! You haven't lived till you've heard Leonard Nimoy sing Both Sides Now...truly excruciating not to mention hysterical!!!Unfortunately I don't have a recording to share with you all.....Kelly,from out of the shadows and reminiscing with a smile and a cringe(Been lurking for months,sorry I've yet to formally introduce myself.....later >From: Wolfebite@aol.com >Reply-To: Wolfebite@aol.com >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Joni Covers >Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 01:50:33 EDT > >pglass@tasyo.kssp.upd.edu.ph writes: > > ><< Adrienne Barbeau - I had a King >> > > >Adrienne Barbeau!! MAUD's daughter? the actress from that classic movie >"The Fog"? > >egads > >doug ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:23:06 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Penny wrote: Here's a question in light of the other sensitive posts that point out how hard it was for Joni to give up Kelly (Kilauren) after bonding with her for three months. What does it say about Joni's trust in and respect of her parents, especially Myrtle, that she'd hide the birth and give the baby up for adoption rather than go to her folks for some help and support? I've been reading all the posts on this subject with great interest, but I think this is the best point yet made, ie. that Joni felt she couldn't turn to her own parents for help? Deb also said "I doubt there's a woman on the planet with who has an unambivalent relationship with her mother." Which I have to agree with wholeheartedly! I can't comment on the pro's and con's of adoption since I haven't experienced it first-hand. But if the emotion and physical pain Joni manages to convey in song is any indication of her own emotions (probably a small subset of those emotions), then I doubt any decision she made would have been easily lived with - no matter what the final result. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 05:54:48 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Joni Covers Joseph Palis wrote: >Adrienne Barbeau - I had a King Oh my god, this I gotta hear. The first thing that comes to my mind is William Shatner singing "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds." Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~there are only three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 03:34:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: little green Somewhere on Les' site is an article entitled ADOPTION: BOTH SIDES NOW, by Reola Daniel, from the (ultra-conservative) Western Report. Anyway, they contacted Mrs. Anderson, and here are some quotes: Mrs. Anderson has been described as "a nice lady, but very Calvinistic." She has said, though: "I think she [Joni] thought we would be quite disappointed. We had talked about this type of problem beforehand. We were very strict about [Joan's] upbringing....In retrospect, we're sorry she had to have a baby without our support. If we had known, things would have been different." Mrs. Anderson is, according to this article, proud of her daughter for not aborting the child: "I don't approve of abortion, and I don't think Joan felt she could deal with that either." Mrs. Anderson is still unhappy with Kilauren's father: "He was irresponsible about the whole thing; he went to California to complete his studies...." You can find the whole article on Les' site. "Little Green" is called that because Kelly is a shade of green. Call her Green and the winters cannot fade her/Call her Green for the children who have made her/Little Green.....be a Gypsy dancer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 07:30:27 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me In a message dated 9/20/99 2:22:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << 've been reading all the posts on this subject with great interest, but I think this is the best point yet made, ie. that Joni felt she couldn't turn to her own parents for help? >> Reading this, I was thinking about an emotional moment that I had with my 18 y.o. daughter, Signe. She's a smart girl, but extraordinarily lazy when it comes to school work. During her high school career, she could have pulled A's, scraped by with C's. In a way, that was good because it helped to teach me how to let go of her and allow her to fall on her own face, (within reason), but that's another thread. Months later we were talking about this and Sig told me that one reason why she always went to great pains to hide her report card was that she couldn't bear the look of disappointment on my face. She could deal with anything but that. Now granted, this is way, way below being pregnant on the kid crisis-meter, but I think that it illustrates how kids want to please their parents. If you couple that very intense drive with a society that, (when K was born), did not accept unwed,single mothers with open arms, you have a recipe for Joni's situation. Keep in mind, she also lived in Toronto, clear on the other end of Canada. Maybe things would have been different had this happened closer to her hometown. (then again, maybe not - I bet that small town stigma was even worse). As Kakki said, I think that the Kilauren issue has been too important to indulge in the typical mother/daughter headgames. It's certainly been a situation that has supplied its share of pain and grief; both at the immediate time and as the years went by. As I type this out, this thought just in: I think that Joni has really handled this very graciously in many ways. How many people, once they hit fame and fortune, would have tried to go back to court to retrieve the baby? Done their best to take the child from his/her home because, "it's my baby!" Joni made a tough choice and lived with it. Period. MG np: Joan Baez: "Love Song to a Stranger" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:19:18 -0400 From: Janene Otten Subject: RE: Good vs. Evil (vljc) Hi, Actually, I was referring to the Tribute album with Bjork, Chaka Khan, Elvis Costello etc...I wanted to record a song to be included on that album. I was dreaming! =) Janene < Subject: RE: little green... I'm still catching up on the weekend mail - so pardon me for interrupting mid-thread (and late to boot...) Perhaps it's just me, given experience I've had with people guessing (incorrectly) about what some of my songs are about - and then, in the larger scheme of things, people assuming I must feel certain things in certain proportions about not being able to have children, but I don't think I could possibly guess what Joni's feeling are/were about giving up Kilauren for adoption. And I don't have to. Instead, Joni's experience has resulted in songs I can wrap around myself to deal with my own experience. I'd rather allow Joni the privacy of her own emotions and accept her music as a gift. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:38:20 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Kilauren, and "a baby" In a message dated 9/19/99 10:55:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TerryM2442@aol.com writes: << I mentioned recently, we had the opportunity to set up a reunion for our adopted 14 year old daughter with her bio family. It was a roller coaster ride for me (and I still wonder where Kilauren's adoptive parents are with this whole thing), but I was curious as to how the reunion affected my daughter's bio mom. She said to me that now she feels complete for the first time since she relinquished her baby. Seeing her, touching her, and having her back in her life has been the most comforting thing that has happened to her. Studying her face, I could see it. >> what a generous and selfless thing you did to accept the risk of your emotions and facilitate this meeting. i know you didn't post it for this reason, but i'd like to tell you that you did a big thing and you should be very proud of this. this is a life time accomplishment that surely took all your experience and judgement to see through. ss ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:19:52 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... You asked whether Joni had had her child for "almost a year >befor giving her up for adoption?" I'm not sure how long she had her, but it was at least a few months - the baby was definitely not a newborn. Then you said: "No wonder she wrote such a cruel song about Chuck Mitchell...all those promises and then nothing! I had a king surely hits the head right on the nail!" Not that I know anything about Chuck Mitchell, but maybe it seemed like a good idea at the time. Chuck wasn't even the father (does anyone know whether the father, whose name I don't remember) was even aware that Joni was pregnant with his child until this whole Kilauren reunion came about? What exactly did Chuck promise, and was it not more Joni's decision for them to split up? I do recall her saying in interviews that she married him but was thinking all the while that she could "get out of this". Youthful folly, maybe? cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:36:12 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... (and introduction) Welcome to the list, and thanks for your post and comments, where you say: >Joni talked about the paradox of being dirt poor and marrying Chuck >Mitchell as a last ditch effort to keep "Kelly Dale Anderson, as she was >named, while one year later having a record contract. She said, "How was I >to know and to survive until that time?" That's why I believe she would have kept her child. It's a very courageous and heart-breaking decision that she made, so it's good to know it ultimately turned out well. I also think that if she had been through that once, she may not ever have wanted to worry about it again - hence, no more children - what a shame! wouldn't it be nice to see Joni and family performing together? On the other hand, when you've got kids, it's hard to get time to yourself to keep the music and poetry flowing (and that's why God created nannies!) Then, you went on to say: >A friend of hers recalls when Joni met a couple with a four year old >daughter. When they'd left, she said, "That could have been my daughter," >so Kelly was forefront in her mind, even then. That's interesting, because I thought the whole thing was such a closely guarded secret that no one knew until Joni started searching for her daughter - and then found her -, about the baby at all. Yet obviously people must have known. I wonder why none of this stuff ever got into National Enquirer or other tabloids of that kind? There's always someone willing to blab on someone else (not to mention the fact that much of their stuff is total fiction anyway!) Considering all the people Joni knew, it's interesting that no one picked up on it. Even before the news came out, hearing songs like "Little Green" I thought Joni may have beent talking about herself as a child, or the daughter of a friend. And in "Song for Sharon", where she says "Your kids are growing up straight/but my child's a stranger./ I bore her, but I could not raise her," I thought she was speaking figuratively, where "My child" refers to the childish elements within herself (as in transactional analysis for example.) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:44:13 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me MG wrote: >As I type this out, this thought just in: I think that Joni has really >handled this very graciously in many ways. How many people, once they hit >fame and fortune, would have tried to go back to court to retrieve the baby? >Done their best to take the child from his/her home because, "it's my baby!" >Joni made a tough choice and lived with it. Period. Well said! I was thinking this myself last night. I believe it shows the level of commitment in what was best for her child, truly heroic and self-sacrificing. L LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:39:56 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Photos Holy jeez - I learn something new every day! You said: >If there is a copy center (like Kinko's) near you, they usually have >professional quality scanners (better than most home scanners, these >produce very high quality scans) which you can use to make personal >copies for little cost... especially if you bring your own diskettes. > In ALL SERIOUSNESS (this isn't a joke), here's one neo-Luddite who had NO idea that you could do this. You mean you can take your regular prints (not even negatives?) to Kinko's (or wherever) and have them scanned into a disk and you've got something you can e-mail to other people? Here I thought you needed a special camera and everything. I swear, I am absolutely blowed away. Thanks for the info! cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:48:06 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... At 04:19 PM 9/20/99 +0000, Catherine McKay wrote: >Not that I know anything about Chuck Mitchell, but maybe it seemed like a >good idea at the time. Chuck wasn't even the father (does anyone know >whether the father, whose name I don't remember) was even aware that Joni >was pregnant with his child until this whole Kilauren reunion came about? >What exactly did Chuck promise, and was it not more Joni's decision for >them to split up? I do recall her saying in interviews that she married >him but was thinking all the while that she could "get out of >this". Youthful folly, maybe? I think his name is Brad, knew about the pregnancy, because reportedly he moved to Toronto with Joni. He said, "We weren't communicating," and that was why her left her for California, where apparently he continued his studies. He said he came back to discuss marriage, "But by that time,she was married to some other guy so I just totally divorced myself from the situation." I, too, wonder what Chuck promised. ?? L LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:14:11 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... Kakki, you said, "I recall getting particularly upset about some of the letters to various publications which blithely attacked her and questioned her motives, i.e., she selfishly wanted to pursue the music career and fame and didn't want to be saddled with the child." It's fact that she was in a completely untenable situation." That kind of thinking always irritates the bejesus out of me too. Where is the logic, the compassion, the tolerance in that kind of thinking? It's so unkind and so hypocritical. That kind of person is totally incapable of putting him/herself into the other person's shoes because they've never experienced anything - not hardship, not pain, but none of the joy either. And ironically, they're always the ones to cast the first stone. Then you said "maybe the way she coped with the horrible pain of the whole situation of making a real wrong choice of a husband and having to give up her baby, was to go inside to the one thing she had left - her creative reservoir - and throw herself totally into it. Out of that immersion came a wealth of incredible songs, one right after the other." I definitely agree with that. Most great poetry and great songs come from sadness, not happiness. When people are happy, they're too busy being happy to sit down and write a poem or a song about it. It's the introspective-ness of sorrow or disillusionment that makes the person sit down and think about it, and writing it down is definitely one way of getting it out, because sometimes it's just too difficult to talk about. I don't know if it's just my age or what, but I've gone through a tremendous time the last few years thinking, almost to the point of obesssion, about "bad" things I've said or done to other people, and regretting them and wishing I could apologize to people I knew years ago, and with whom I've totally lost touch, over something I've said or done, or failed to say, or failed to do. At the same time, I've also thought about things that other people have said or done to me that were cruel and, whereas 10 years ago or so I might have wanted nothing better than to spit in their face or get some kind of revenge on them, now I think I could (in most cases anyway!) forgive them, understand them, and move on. The funny part about that is, often the things I've thought of as being so terrible, that have weighed on my mind sometimes for years, are things the wronged party doesn't even remember. I even thought about running an ad in major newspapers saying: "to anyone I ever wronged - i'm sorry!" but that's a bit precious, ain't it? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:26:25 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Southern Comfort Today I had a little exchange of e-mails with Iain Matthews. Whilst I am trying to persuade him to come on the JMDL himself, he said he would be happy for me to post this:- >Paul, >Hi. >Actually, yes, I am planning another UK tour next May. >I have a new album to be released in early March. >It will be on my own label "Perfect Pitch ," through a >label called "Unique Gravity".who also release Robin >Williamson's music. The album is called "A Tiniest Wham." >I have not seen Hugh [Blumenfeld's folkmusic.about.com] >site, but I now plan to check it out. I haven't heard his music >yet either, but have seen rave reviews of his writing and must >find out what all the fuss is about. I asked about: >>.......In particular, the concert you did with Joni [Mitchell] >>at The Royal Festival Hall - the Festival of Contemporary >>Song in 1968, with Jackson C Frank, Al Stewart and The >>Johnstons also on the bill. Do you have any memories of >>this event? Iain wrote: >Fairport, yes. To tell you the truth, I don't remember very much about that >show at all. We did so many great venues and billings in those days, it's >hard to recall some of them. I do however remember playing the London >Palladium with James Taylor, when Joni and he were still an item, and >"Woodstock" was a still a big hit. There is a well published photo of us >(Matthews Southern Comfort) In fact it appeared in the Joni book recently >bearing the caption "Joni and her band" indeed! >I do have a web page, with a very long address, run for me by a fan in the >Netherlands. The address is: http://www.bio.vu.nl/home/vwielink/matthews >That should give you all the current info you'll need on my meanderings. >Stay in touch. > >Iain PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:36:06 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Papa's faith is people Mama she believes in cleaning Papa's faith is in people Mama she's always cleaning Papa brought home the sugar Mama taught me the deeper meaning She don't like my kick pleat skirt She don't like my eyelids painted green She don't like me staying up late In my high-heeled shoes Living for that Rock'n'Roll dancing scene Papa says "Leave the girl alone, Mother She's looking like a Movie Queen" Mama thinks she spoilt me Papa knows somehow he set me free Mama thinks she spoilt me rotten She blames herself But papa he blesses me It's a rough road to travel Mama let go now It's always called for me Sometimes I get that feeling And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody I get that strong longing And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody But it passes like the summer I'm a wild seed again Let the wind carry me Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:13:14 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... On the question: "Do y'all think she has forgiven herself?" and one response: "With a soul as deep and wide as Joni's and the propensity for a seeming need for confession in her work (not to *mention* the "Calvinistic" impressions of her mother and Joni's reasons for concealing her pregnancy from her folks,) you really think Joni never felt guilt?" and then your: "I sincerely doubt it," I'm sure she felt guilt, and regret, often and almost always. I was once in a situation where something "terrible" had happened, and there was no way I would ever tell my parents. I can thoroughly understand that. To this very day, I'm sure I would have trouble telling my Dad (my mother died a few years ago) about anything that I think might upset him. And I'm 46. Joni still talks about dealing with her parents and guilt. About 22 years ago, my brother's then-girlfriend got pregnant and they apparently considered abortion, but rejected the idea. Only after the baby (my nephew Patrick, now a fine strapping lad of 22 or so) was born did they call my parents to let them know - before that, they didn't even know she was pregnant, so you can imagine having a bomb like that dropped on you - and yet my brother and Terri were so afraid to tell them beforehand. In fact, several months earlier, Michael and Terri went on a trip to the Caribbean and stayed at my place overnight to catch their plane the following day. At that time, Terri was pregnant, but she obviously wasn't that far along, and I had never met her before that, because I certainly didn't notice. And they didn't tell me. Once they had told my parents, one of the first people my mum called to tell the news was me. She thought I knew about it all along and was in on it, and my mother always had a terrible time expressing "difficult" news, (for example, when she found out she had cancer, and was going into the hospital for a mastectomy, she phoned and said: "Uh, well, somebody's going into the hospital". I asked her "Who?" and she said: "Me!" and burst into tears, so this is what you're dealing with.) She made the announcement of Patrick's birth to me over the phone this way: "Well, Terri's had her baby." I had to ask, Terri Who? because I didn't have a clue what she was talking about. There were a lot of upset people that day - on the one hand, a child out of wedlock (!) On the other hand, being good Catholics, my parents were relieved that they hadn't had an abortion. (Kind of a good news/bad news thing, big time!) Over time, my parents calmed down, and trusted everyone again and realized that one could "live in sin" and still be a good person. Now, even though Michael and Terri never did get that piece of paper from the City Hall (or maybe they did but just never bothered to tell anyone!), they're still together, have 5 kids, and are probably one of the happiest, best-adjusted families I've ever met. My point, which I will finally get to you, is that, to those of you blessed with open, communicative relationships - get down on your knees and thank whatever gods may be for your good fortune, because a lot of us screwed-up individuals have a helluva time talking about anything - especially to the people who are closest to us. Don't that beat all? cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:42:02 -0400 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: BOHO Dance The phrase "boho dance" is from Tom Wolfes novel The Painted Word. bill >I'm pretty sure you're right - I believe it does mean "bohemian." If I'm not >mistaken Joni said something about this being based on the writings of Tom >Wolfe (Bonfire of the Vanities and other things.) > > >cateri@hotmail.com > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:43:50 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Joni Covers On Sunday my breakfast was interrupted by a singer called Michael Ball on the radio raving about how much he loves Joni Mitchell. Apparently his normal forte is Lloyd Webber tunes. He went on to play his version of River from his upcoming Christmas album and I must say it was truely not bad. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:00:54 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... (SJC) "When she went to art school, her mother declared that she could never stick with and finish anything." My parents said similar things to us kids. My brother dropped out of engineering school in his last WEEK because he was so terrified that his thesis wouldn't be any good. This was a kid who was so smart that he was accelerated in school and so was about 2 years younger than his classmates at university. Fortunately one of his profs called him and told him to get his ass back and to finish his year (and he did.) Two of my sisters wanted to go to art school, and my Dad tried to talk them out of it because he didn't think it was a good "profession" to be in. Both of them did go for a year or so, but did end up dropping out in despair. Later, one of them went into nursing school, then dropped out after a year. In high school, I wanted to study art and music, but my parents didn't want me to and back then, you mostly did what your parents said. I was never able to stick to anything until I made a decision that some things were indeed worth sticking to, and have found that, where there's a will, there's a way, and I truly believe that if a person wants something badly enough, he or she will find a way to make it happen (whether or not this is a good thing or not is a whole different story!) My husband, who IS an artist, went through the same stuff with his parents - in this case, again, it was his Dad. His Dad had gone through WWII, had been in a concentration camp, and lost a lot - friends, family, property, and so on - and wanted his son to become an electronics-whatever, or some kind of professional or technical type, and not to go into art. Even though my husband is an artist today, he is, get this, trying to tell my daugher to stay away from art. Figure that one out! And I have great difficulty trying NOT to say the negative kinds of things my parents might have said to us, to my own kids, and I admit, i often do not succeed. You said: "Could be that her parents, or mother at least were highly critical, to the point of making it seem impossible to go to her/them when vulnerable and in need of support, expecting verbal pummeling and shaming. " For sure. I've talked about this kind of thing to lots of people I know who have experienced the same thing. And yet, this is not cases of child abuse. We were not physically abused, we had food to eat, we went to good schools, we didn't go without anything, so I'm not even going to get into the topic of those who ARE abused. But our parents had certain expectations, and much of these were conveyed non-verbally. There was no way, as a child or event as an adult, that I would ever tell my parents anything that I thought they wouldn't want to hear. Part of this is fear that I had somehow disappointed them, and part of it is pride/vanity. I would work it out in my own way, and then just not tell them anything, so that way I wouldn't have to lie to them, because I am a very poor liar and to me, lying is the ultimate dishonesty. To this very day, I have great difficulty asking anyone for help, or depending on anyone for anything. I worked it out early on that if I relied on myself, I would never be disappointed and if I were, that I would have only myself to blame. I realize this is probably kind of sick because some day, I probably will need someone, so I might as well get used to it now. I also believe in a form of karma, or whatever, so that it would somehow be appropriate for me to have to rely on someone some day, so I could learn that lesson. That's OK though. I appreciate the humour in that. As kids, when one of us came home with an A-minus in a subject, Dad would ask, "How come you didn't get A-plus." He was actually kidding, but we didn't get it. I think in many ways, people in my family were hypersensitive about a lot of things and much of the guilt we felt was probably not due to anything my parents said or did, but may have been part of our natures. I still find it easy to forgive others their weaknesses, but somehow expect myself to be better than that - which is, in itself, a form of pride, and not the good kind either. I could go on more about this, but I think I'd rather just shut up now. Anyway, the shrink gets PAID to listen to this! ;] cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:03:42 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: little green... >so, why did joni have to give up her child at birth? because of her sins, >or the sins of her parents? neither.....so god's work could be revealed >through her. then god returned her child to her. > Amen to that - that was well-said. cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:06:24 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Best album covers ever From: philipf@tinet.ie Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:48:41 +0100 The Weekend section in The Guardian had an interesting article about record sleeve design in which they selected the top 100 covers ever. Our favourite designer made the top 100 for HOSL. I'd probably agree with that although I really like Seagull and Ladies of the Canyon as well. Other worthy chart entries were Sticky Fingers, Sgt. Pepper, Cheap Thrills DSOTM (I assume that's what they call it on the Pink Floyd list), Odelay - Beck , Horses - Patti Smith, Houses of The Holy - L. Zep. Strangely there was no place on the chart for Disreali Gears, Please Please Me, Forever Changes or my choice for chart topper - The Freewheelin Bob Dylan which I recall contained a beautiful girl and a '62 VW bus. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:24:35 -0600 From: evian Subject: Joni Covers > Adrienne Barbeau - I had a King > Good Lord, Maude's daughter sings!!!! Priceless!!!!!!! Just a thought..... the Maude theme song could very well be a tribute to Joni: "That incompromisin', enterprisin', anything but traquilizing..... RIGHT ON MAUDE (Joan). Yup, I love love love my '70's tv. Evian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:23:53 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Joni's Covers Philip said: <> I would rate her better covers: LOTC HOSL C&S Hejira (Photography as art) Mingus S&L WTRF TI TTT (Love that shade of Green) DED would get a nod except for that 'doo! :~) Bob NP: The Feelies, "On The Roof" -------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. -------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:37:52 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Little Green Catherine McKay wrote: >That's interesting, because I thought the whole thing was such a closely >guarded secret that no one knew until Joni started searching for her >daughter - and then found her -, about the baby at all. Yet obviously >people must have known. I wonder why none of this stuff ever got into >National Enquirer or other tabloids of that kind? I remember hearing/reading that those close to Joni knew - Graham, David (Crosby and Geffin), etc. I guess some people still have enough class to keep some things to themselves. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:49:17 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: little green Hi All! I've been thinking a lot about this thread. I usually don't care to dive into Joni's personal life as it makes me feel like a gossip or voyeur. I particularly dislike the threads that try to determine the "who" Joni is speaking of when she's writing of a past lover. But I do see much value in this thread as it tries to come to a greater understanding of Joni's character, intergrity and emotional vulnerablity , whether it be at the beginning of her career or currently, which in turn, give us a greater understanding of where the author is coming from in the lyrics and moods of her songs. And I've appreciated how the posts on this thread have been intelligent, respectful and sensitive toward not only Joni, but with each other's opinions, and also the insightfulness shared based on the personal perspectives each contributor has brought to this discussion. This thread is a very good example of what I thought a discussion list was all about when I joined the JMDL, the first day I got on the net. ;-) Peace Penny ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:47:11 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... (and introduction) In a message dated 9/20/99 12:39:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cateri@hotmail.com writes: << I wonder why none of this stuff ever got into National Enquirer or other tabloids of that kind? There's always someone willing to blab on someone else (not to mention the fact that much of their stuff is total fiction anyway!) >> I've never thought of Joni Mitchell as tabloid fodder....now, had Kelly been a 100 lb. infant... Gina ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:02:48 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... In a message dated 9/20/99 10:11:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, asandstrom@allaire.com writes: << Perhaps it's just me, given experience I've had with people guessing (incorrectly) about what some of my songs are about - and then, in the larger scheme of things, people assuming I must feel certain things in certain proportions about not being able to have children, but I don't think I could possibly guess what Joni's feeling are/were about giving up Kilauren for adoption. And I don't have to. Instead, Joni's experience has resulted in songs I can wrap around myself to deal with my own experience. I'd rather allow Joni the privacy of her own emotions and accept her music as a gift. >> Perfectly said as far as I'm concerned, Anne. I speculate that Joni would have kept her child had she the financial means but my second-guessing goes only that far. There's nothing like over-analyzation to suck the magic and spontaneity out of virtually any experience. Though Dr. Mondgreen's style is certainty always welcome! :} I'm not even sure if I got the name right, but you know what I mean! My feelings also apply to her privacy in regard to her lovers as well as speculation about cosmetic surgery and even where she choose to dine. Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:10:54 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Covers In a message dated 9/20/99 5:34:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bob.Muller@fluor.com writes: << Philip said: <> >> I'm so glad to hear of this! It is my favorite Joni cover, though TI is by far one of the wittiest, and most apropos album covers of all time, in my opinion. Take care, Gina NP: Fisherman's Blues - The Waterboys ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 01:25:30 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni's Covers My two favourites are TI and Hejira. hejira because it is beautiful and different, stunning actually. TI because it is funny and yet sad and really fits the content of the album. Just looking at this cover you know the songs aint gonna be happy ones! And strangely enough for one who knows little about art and can't recall ever learning about Van Gogh, i knew straight away where she got that idea from. In fact I think I only learned of Van Gogh's existence from he MOA album and still wouldn't recognize 'a starry night' even if he did 'paint a starry night again, ma'. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:40:21 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Hello katie, slipped in a little nugget: I am pregnant, whoohoo!!!!!! whoohoo!!!!!! indeed. big happy congratulations to you. ashara, crank up the childcare facility for jonifest2k! katie's bringing her own little green! patrick np - jane siberry - tree ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:04:49 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Joni in the tabloids In a message dated 9/20/99 3:54:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Ginamu@aol.com writes: << I've never thought of Joni Mitchell as tabloid fodder....now, had Kelly been a 100 lb. infant... >> I can remember two Joni articles in National Enquirer, (back when I had my lifetime subscription). One was a gossip column thing about her dating Warren Beatty and the other was when the situation w/ her maid and all that. No album reviews, though. Go figure.... MG np Joan Baez ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:10:37 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Little Green Actually, the more I think about it, the more I have to agree with some of the points Penny just made about the relevance of the Little Green thread. Such discussions are the stuff that good biographies are made of, to be sure. Still...I think Joni's own memoirs are going to reveal a whole lot that we can only speculate about and analyze at present. But I have mixed feelings about that as well. I maintain (and it is only how one person feels and not intended to discredit the high concept threads that routinely take place on this great list) that for *me*, there is something gained but also something lost in the attempts we make at understanding what any artist may be trying to do with any work they create. I love the poet Anne Sexton, for example. I began reading her stuff in 1979 and when her biography (a very fine out at that) was released about 5 years ago, I read it with relish. However, some of my most cherished moments reading her poetry were somewhat robbed of their magic by the background which accompanied them in the biography. I gained greater insight but I lost some of the immediacy of just letting the words form their own impressions. Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:19:33 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Little Green Gina-I agree. i don't really want to know what Joni means in her works. I have my own impressions. I think knwoing what she emans might ruin my enjoyment. As for the discussion of her and her guessed at thoughts and reactions and guitls etc, I can't help but feel uncomforatble. It is at such times I imagine her readin this list and it makes me cringe. Would I like to be discussed like this? would I want people who do not know me analyszing me from this point of ignorance? Meaning, when they do not know me? of course the discussions are interesting and long may they continue. I do not mean to suggest such discussions shouldn't take place, just that it brings those feelings up in me. Of course Joni might well love them and not have that cringing feeling I imagine!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:51:02 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Little Green . However, some of my most cherished moments > reading her poetry were somewhat robbed of their magic by the background > which accompanied them in the biography. I gained greater insight but I lost > some of the immediacy of just letting the words form their own impressions. > > Take care, > Gina I know just what you mean, Gina. There have been times when I have read interviews with Joni when she has explained the origins of a certain song and I've thought to myself 'well there goes my interpretation out the window'. But Joni's own words and this discussion list probably more than anything else have taught me that just because the artist intended something different or came from a different place, it doesn't mean you can't form your own interpretation or draw your own meaning from their work. We all have our own unique perspectives and personally, reading all of your thoughts and opinions has only enriched my experience of Joni and of music in general. The nature of good art makes it impossible to fix it with just one interpretation or meaning. I believe a great part of its purpose is to open the mind to many new perspectives, to change our perception by showing us the world around us in new & different ways. Joni is a master of this. So just because some event or feeling in an artist's life inspired a given work, it doesn't mean that the work can't represent something in our own lives, entirely different from what inspired it. Mark in Seattle (waxing philosophic this pm) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:38:39 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green... Gina wrote: > Perfectly said as far as I'm concerned, Anne. I speculate that Joni would > have kept her child had she the financial means but my second-guessing goes > only that far. There's nothing like over-analyzation to suck the magic and > spontaneity out of virtually any experience. Though Dr. Mondgreen's style is > certainty always welcome! :} I'm not even sure if I got the name right, but > you know what I mean! > > My feelings also apply to her privacy in regard to her lovers as well as > speculation about cosmetic surgery and even where she choose to dine. I'm sorry that my participation in these threads have caused some of you to cringe or diminished your enjoyment of Joni's music. Guess I just get too comfortable around here sometimes. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:24:10 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Fwd: little green... - --part1_8e183287.2518626a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part1_8e183287.2518626a_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: CaTGirl627@aol.com From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Full-name: CaTGirl627 Message-ID: <61fe21b3.25186241@aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:23:29 EDT Subject: Re: little green... To: cateri@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 In a message dated 9/20/1999 12:20:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cateri@hotmail.com writes: << Not that I know anything about Chuck Mitchell, but maybe it seemed like a good idea at the time. Chuck wasn't even the father (does anyone know whether the father, whose name I don't remember) was even aware that Joni was pregnant with his child until this whole Kilauren reunion came about? What exactly did Chuck promise, and was it not more Joni's decision for them to split up? I do recall her saying in interviews that she married him but was thinking all the while that she could "get out of this". Youthful folly, maybe? >> Well that is probably true. When we are young we act befor thinking and even though he was not the father it did kinda sound like he promised to take on the child along with her. I have had many crappy experiences with men and at such a young age women (if you can call us that at that age) certain prefer to trust then to question... Catgirl - --part1_8e183287.2518626a_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:26:59 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Little Green "I gained greater insight but lost some of the immediacy..." I'm glad to see you saying that; I so much agree that the most valuable response to creativity is uncensored by "knowledge" about the creator's life. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #198 ****************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?