From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #197 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Monday, September 20 1999 Volume 01 : Number 197 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: tribute Album [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: little green / let the wind carry me [MGVal@aol.com] Fundraiser for Wally [Ashara@aol.com] Re: little green / let the wind carry me [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: little green / let the wind carry me ["Kakki" ] Fw: little green / let the wind carry me ["Kakki" ] Re: little green... [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: little green / let the wind carry me [Deb Messling ] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Kilauren, and "a baby" ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: Kilauren, and "a baby" [TerryM2442@aol.com] Joni Covers [Joseph Palis ] Re: Joni Covers [Wolfebite@aol.com] Re: Joni Covers sjc [CaTGirl627@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 07:53:52 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: tribute Album In a message dated 17/09/99 14:08:00 GMT Daylight Time, jamie_zubairi@hotmail.com writes: << One thing that mead me laugh was Janet Jackson's choice of cover. I thought that she would go for something a little vocally easier and with a little more control like a ballad. Much as I like Janet, vocally she's quite meek. Can you imagine 'This is his story, it's a tough one for me to sing...' >> Well, not only is she vocally"meek" (to put it kindly - personally I don't think she can sing a note), but I can't imagine her singing "I can't even hear the fuckin' music playing". Still, maybe she'll surprise us. Great to see you back on the list Jamie. Are you going to see Jane Siberry in November? Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 08:29:50 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Penny wrote: << whatever the reasoning. If Joni's art thrives on "unresolve", I think > this may be where it will stem from currently. Kakki added: I agree, and while I suspect that Myrtle has resolved it pretty well, I don't think it will ever be completely resolved for Joni - it runs too deep. Just MHO. >> MG's two cents: I think that the two of them still get locked in convoluted head games. Witness the scenario of "Happiness is the Best Facelift." Joni still has problems come to terms w/ her mom's feeling of "disgrace" from her "shacking up" w/ Donald downtown. She respects her mom's mores by staying in a hotel rather than at their house, but Myrtle, as well, gets stuck in that "did you come home to disgrace us," bit. By now, one would hope that Myrtle should realize that she has a daughter who does not wish to disgrace them or that Joni would have techniques and skills to avoid that whole "I went so numb on Christmas Day...." scenario. But that tension remains and while I am sure that it's not the predominate feature of their relationship, it crops up with certain situations. From my 40 years of experience of being some mother's daughter, I know that it can sometimes take all of my skills to not sink into old ways when dealing w/ my mom. It takes a lot of deep breaths to not take her bait and get sucked into a quagmire of old ways when dealing w/ an emotional subject. My mom STILL likes to bring up my being way too young and unmarried and pregnant! "What were you thinking when you did that?" (duh, mom, not a heck of a lot,you know!). For me, there can be an under current that sometimes turns into a dangerous riptide when dealing with my mother, even after all these years. Sometimes I go under, sometimes I don't. Whew. Poor Joni and Myrtle! MG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 15:10:08 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Fundraiser for Wally I would like to close up my side of the fundraiser soon. There are still pledges out there, so if you would still like to donate to Wally's fundraiser, (any amount whatsoever) please send all remaining contributions to me by October 1st. (I need the time to get ready for next year's Jonifest!) ;-) Please make the check out to Wally Breese, and send to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA 01983 A reminder that Wally had a fundraiser quite a while ago, offering a beautiful booklet of "A Tape of You" which accompanies Tape Tree #4. I have offered to take over this project for him, to try to ease some of the burdens he has to deal with right now, and I am offering this booklet on Wally's behalf for a minimum donation to Wally of $5. Of course, you can always send more if you can. As before, the check can be made payable to Wally Breese, and sent to me. Please include where the booklet can be sent, and your e-mail address. Wally's description of this booklet: "The tribute tape booklet has a full-color, glossy cover designed by Jim Johanson and myself and includes a beautiful photograph of Joni taken by Leslie Mixon. Inside are 24 pages which, along with a few lovely and appropriate drawings, contain 34 paragraphs, one from each participant about the particular JM song they contributed to the tapes. This is the same booklet which Joni held in her hands and liked so much that she sent a second set to her mother for archiving. This version will be slightly expanded by submissions from the 2 or 3 people who missed the first print deadline." You can view the booklet cover at: Tribute tape booklet Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:14:36 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Kakki wrote: <> I agree about Joni having a tough time with this..."she's not going to fix it up too easy." Bob said: <> I can actually agree with what Bob wrote too...but that being in that "Joni says". I've got a sneaking hunch that the burden of carrying around her grief and decisions of why she gave up Kilauren, keeping the whole thing from her folks for so many years, skewed Joni's perspective of Myrtle's unconditional love and acceptance of her. For some reason I don't see Myrtle as rigid as Joni has painted her. That's inconsistant from someone who would go to a tea leaf reader, marry a guy after only knowing him a month, and having a child so soon after marriage...even if WWII was going on at the time. And I'd probably get a little huffy too if my daughter kept putting me in songs negatively because I had a different set of standards than her. (Not making any assessment on either of their "standards" here! ;-) To add one more little piece, I wonder if the gut wrenching decision to give Kilauren up also is a factor in why Joni is so critical of the women artists that have come after her. The sub-conscience rationalization could be going something like this: "How was I to know my career was going to take off so soon after I gave up my baby? If I had to sacrifice her just to survive and for her best interest, I was going to pour my heart and soul into my art to release my pain and sorrow. And since the success I've acheived came in part to how I responded artistically and creatively to the pain of my loss, and struggle to carry that emotional load, I need to be recognized for my contributions....without women peer...to soothe and justify my decision to myself!" Just some thoughts! And really, I'm not at all down on Joni. It's a very tough situation. Penny ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:59:56 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Penny wrote: > Bob said: > < Lift", I'm not sure they've kissed and made up over any of this old > dirt...sounds like Myrtle can hold a grudge like my old Granny...>> > I can actually agree with what Bob wrote too...but that being in that > "Joni says". I've got a sneaking hunch that the burden of carrying > around her grief and decisions of why she gave up Kilauren, keeping the > whole thing from her folks for so many years, skewed Joni's perspective > of Myrtle's unconditional love and acceptance of her. I agree, she was so young and did not have the benefit of a few more years of life perspective or guidance to deal with the trauma. I think Myrtle is always going to give her a hard time in some ways and sweat the small stuff like "shacking up with Donald," just for good measure, but I can't imagine that they would not have somehow faced and worked out the big stuff to some extent after all these years. The small stuff is, like MG noted, mother-daughter head games, but I would hope that the issue of Kilauren is too real and important to reduce to the same old sniping and bickering. > For some reason I don't see Myrtle as rigid as Joni has painted her. That's inconsistant > from someone who would go to a tea leaf reader, marry a guy after only > knowing him a month, and having a child so soon after marriage...even if > WWII was going on at the time. She seems to have a very strong spirit of her own as Joni has revealed in some interviews. I recall that she is very active and spirited in her mid-80s and does Tai Chi and yoga and is pretty hip and into all kind of interests and hobbies. And she has saved, clipped and collected every scrap of anything to do with Joni since the beginning. She obviously dotes on her and cannot be some old, cold, rejecting mother. She and Joni are two strong spirits who are probably too much alike in some ways and that is why they clash. Throw into the mix the typical overprotectiveness of parents of an only child and a lot becomes more understandable. Can any of us imagine being the parents of Joni Mitchell? Ha, a tall order! > And I'd probably get a little huffy too > if my daughter kept putting me in songs negatively because I had a > different set of standards than her. (Not making any assessment on > either of their "standards" here! ;-) We all would get pissed off if our child wrote and recorded a song like that about us! It would be very difficult to be objective and understand it for the "art". > To add one more little piece, I wonder if the gut wrenching decision to > give Kilauren up also is a factor in why Joni is so critical of the > women artists that have come after her. The sub-conscience > rationalization could be going something like this: "How was I to know > my career was going to take off so soon after I gave up my baby? If I > had to sacrifice her just to survive and for her best interest, I was > going to pour my heart and soul into my art to release my pain and > sorrow. And since the success I've acheived came in part to how I > responded artistically and creatively to the pain of my loss, and > struggle to carry that emotional load, I need to be recognized for my > contributions....without women peer...to soothe and justify my decision > to myself!" That makes sense to me. She may begrudge them because she perceives that they did not have to suffer or work as hard at it as she did. In some ways, she has a point. However, I do feel bad that she seems to dismiss so many of the new female artists. She's bigger than that and should feel the need to comment negatively about them. Kakki NP: Kenny Rankin - Why Do Fools Fall in Love ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 13:09:21 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Fw: little green / let the wind carry me Oops, I wrote: >She's bigger than that and should feel the need to comment negatively about them. "shouldn't" !!! Kakki NP: Kenny Rankin - While My guitar Gently Weeps ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 16:47:56 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... In a message dated 9/18/99 4:48:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, de_merle@iagora.com writes: << >shame is different to guilt-vastly so. Guilt being the feeling we have when we >know we have done something wrong, or omitted to do something etc.Shame is the >feeling that we are not good enough, that we are bad, rotten, sinful, >defective, >unworthy of love. Well, that's Roget's opinion. I think of shame as embarrassment, but others will have their own experiences and opinions connected with the word. Do we wonder at the difficulty in communicating??!! >> There has been some important work done recently by psychologists on shame. It is an entity unto to itself and goes way, way beyond embarrassment. Rote's nutshell definition is, in fact, in keeping with the definition of psychological study on shame. I am open to being corrected, however. Shame is often at the core of a person's basic self-esteem. I don't think that was the case with Join. I believe that whatever she felt in regard to potentially raising a child out of wedlock was more imbedded in her economic reality (not having any money to raise a child properly) than in feeling any deep-seeded shame either emotionally or socially. It would have been difficult for her socially, I believe, given her parents' generations social expectations but I think she would have gone ahead and raised her daughter had she had some means of financial security. Just my two cents. I'm not sure if anyone's said basically the same thing, as I've not had time to read through all the posts relating to this thread carefully. Take care, Gina NP: Dulce Pontes -Lagrimas Gina ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 17:09:56 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me The fact that we're sitting around discussing Joni's relationship with her mother AT ALL tells me that Myrtle has been a mighty big presence in Joni's life, as big as her lovers and her daughter and her art. How many songwriters have written as much about their mothers as Joni has? I find it quite moving that Joni finds her mother a worthy subject of her poetry, even though a few centuries of male-dominated literary criticism might find it a trivial subject indeed. Do they talk about Bob Dylan's mother on his list?? Maybe they do. I'm on the Bruce Cockburn list and we're perhaps more seriously obsessed than the JMDLers, but to my knowledge we've never talked about his mom! One more rambling thought; I doubt there's a woman on the planet with who has an unambivalent relationship with her mother. Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~there are only three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:31:48 +0200 From: "Peter Holmstedt" Subject: Plug Of The Week #36 Hi there, There's been a LOT of GREAT, small labels emerging from the U.S. in the last couple of years. One of the most promising of these has got to be : TANGIBLE MUSIC from Merrick, New York. Having just celebrated their fourth anniversary this past spring, Tangible Music continues its commitment to releasing quality recordings in the rock and folk field. This fall have seen four really GREAT releases from the small label that calls their music "must hear music" : Darryl Purpose - Traveler's Code ( Tangible 56815 ) - - I've said it before, and I say it again : "Traveler's Code" shows a maturation rarely seen from an artist who's only been touring the circuit fulltime for two years. Compared to both Harry Chapin and James Taylor, this new album features help from both Lucy Kaplansky and Ellis Paul. - Andy Scheinman - Make Amends ( Tangible 56814 ) - - Just when you think Nashville has run out of music to offer the rest of the world, someone like Andy comes along and knocks on your butt. With an alt-country style vocal delivery, each song harks back to the rich tradition of Waylon and Willie, George Jones and other greats. Produced by Tommy Spurlock, who did Chip Taylor's masterpiece "Seven Days In May" last year. - Iain Matthews - Excerpts From Swine Lake ( Tangible 56813 ) - - As a founding member of Fairport Convention, Matthews Southern Comfort and Plainsong, Iain Matthews' musical career has spanned 30 plus years, in which he has recorded in excess of 40 albums. Contains four bonus tracks, not available on the European versions. - Plainsong - New Place Now ( Tangible 56816 ) - - With the updated line-up now featuring Iain Matthews, Andy Roberts, Mark Griffiths and Clive Gregson (Richard Thompson Band), this could very well be the English folk supergroup for the new millenium. Produced by the legendary John Wood (Nick Drake, John Martyn, Sandy Denny, Fairport Convention and more). - All of these releases are highly recommended, and if you're having trouble finding them in your local record store, please try : Tangible Music PO Box 340 Merrick NY 11566 - 0340 U.S.A. Phone: 516 - 409 - 5433 Fax: 516 - 679 - 1377 Email: sales@tangible-music.com Website: http://www.tangible-music.com Great music from a great label ! Take care, Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:43:19 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... Gina writes: >Shame is often at the core of a person's basic self-esteem. I don't think >that was the case with Join. I believe that whatever she felt in regard to >potentially raising a child out of wedlock was more imbedded in her economic >reality (not having any money to raise a child properly) than in feeling any >deep-seeded shame either emotionally or socially. It would have been >difficult for her socially, I believe, given her parents' generations social >expectations but I think she would have gone ahead and raised her daughter >had she had some means of financial security. Well, she said she wasn't ashamed. I agree with you that she would have raised K. if she had been financially secure, regardless of what her parents may have said based on the fact that she has always lived her own life and not catered to her mother. This is not to dismiss any possible emotional conflict, which is a whole 'nuther animal, really. One can go carve their niche but not be rid of the turmoil in their backpack. >Take care, >Gina >NP: Dulce Pontes -Lagrimas :) Ni-nite, all. LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:56:45 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Kilauren, and "a baby" Terry wrote: "Mary, I agree. That's why I wrote "a baby", not Kilauren, when I suggested that she may have known long ago that raising a child wasn't something she felt she could do. Terry" Oops--so you did: at least, if the snippet I just read quoted in someone else's post was from you! I haven't been able to unearth your original post in my hoard of digests, and was thinking about it from memory when I wrote my response. Sorry about the misinterpretation. What I was trying to say, though, and still believe, was that the experience of losing Kilauren changed Joni irrevocably, and probably would have influenced any decision she made about a *second* child afterwards. Now, as for the plans she might have made for a *first* child, born after the fame of _Blue_: who knows??? Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:52:17 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Kilauren, and "a baby" In a message dated 9/19/1999 9:54:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PitassiM@WEAC.org writes: << What I was trying to say, though, and still believe, was that the experience of losing Kilauren changed Joni irrevocably, and probably would have influenced any decision she made about a *second* child afterwards. >> Mary, Yes, I agree on both counts. Someone wrote that everyone's personal experience colors their take on this issue and I couldn't agree more. I'm so interested in this thread because, as I mentioned recently, we had the opportunity to set up a reunion for our adopted 14 year old daughter with her bio family. It was a roller coaster ride for me (and I still wonder where Kilauren's adoptive parents are with this whole thing), but I was curious as to how the reunion affected my daughter's bio mom. She said to me that now she feels complete for the first time since she relinquished her baby. Seeing her, touching her, and having her back in her life has been the most comforting thing that has happened to her. Studying her face, I could see it. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:34:35 +0800 (CST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Joni Covers Went CD hunting yesterday and I saw the following artists doing covers of Joni songs: Music Unlimited - Both Sides, Now; I Don't Know Where I Stand Adrienne Barbeau - I had a King Nancy Wilson (of `Heart' fame) - A Case of you Any info as to these artists and as to how their versions measure up to past version? Joseph (still awaiting for the second installment of the Bette Midler discography review) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 01:50:33 EDT From: Wolfebite@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Covers pglass@tasyo.kssp.upd.edu.ph writes: << Adrienne Barbeau - I had a King >> Adrienne Barbeau!! MAUD's daughter? the actress from that classic movie "The Fog"? egads doug ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 01:57:35 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Covers sjc In a message dated 9/20/1999 1:41:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pglass@tasyo.kssp.upd.edu.ph writes: << Nancy Wilson (of `Heart' fame) - A Case of you >> She does a very nice rendition of that. I wouldn't mind getting her CD. It sounds very good! Catgirl ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #197 ****************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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