From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #196 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, September 19 1999 Volume 01 : Number 196 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- little green... [evian ] Re: little green... ["Kakki" ] Re: little green... [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: little green... [MGVal@aol.com] re: little Green ["Ben Mulvey" ] Re: little Green [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: little green... [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Re[2]: Photos [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: little green... [RMuRocks@aol.com] RE: little green... ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: little green... ["Kakki" ] Re: little green / let the wind carry me [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: little green... [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: little green / let the wind carry me ["Kakki" ] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: little green... ["Kakki" ] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: little green... [catman ] All the way from New England ["Paul Castle" ] Re: little green... [catman ] Re: little green... [LLDeMerle ] Re: little green / let the wind carry me [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] RE: little green ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Joni quoted in Nickelodeon Cartoon!!!!! [mann@chicagonet.net] Re: little green / let the wind carry me ["Kakki" ] re: Joni pic ["Ray & Cathy" ] Re: Good vs. Evil (vljc) [Dflahm@aol.com] Joni Standards Album ["Kakki" ] Re: little green [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Joni Standards Album [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: little green / let the wind carry me [RMuRocks@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 01:15:16 -0600 From: evian Subject: little green... Siresorrow writes: > Do y'all think she has forgiven herself? as demanding as she is in the > studio, imagine how hard she must have been on herself over this. > Well, I am sure Joni must deal with feelings of guilt, etc., but I have always gotten the impression that Joni was past the point of having to "forgive" herself. As she stated many times, she had no options, and her decision to put her daughter up for adoption was not something that she felt needed forgiveness. Rather, Joni had the best interests of her child in mind, and I think that this is what really got her through the years. Sure, the pain, guilt, shame, etc. didn't disappear, but I think that Joni has never thought that she must be forgiven.... maybe her sadness has abated, but I don't think forgiveness necessarily figures into the equation. My sister gave her daughter up for adoption when she was 17, and, 18 years later, she says in retrospect that this was the best decision she could have made. I know that she is still indeed awash in sadness when her daughter's birthday rolls around, and I know that it is quite poignant for her now that she is married and has three other children, and I also know that she does feel guilt in thinking "Things would have worked out somehow if I had kept her", but I don't think forgiveness is anything that she feels she needs to do, that she needs to give herself. She took the best option at the time, like Joni. Neither need forgiving, and I don't think that Joni thinks deep down that she has to forgive herself for something that doesn't need forgiving. Just my opinion..... Evian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 01:08:07 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green... Evian wrote: > Well, I am sure Joni must deal with feelings of guilt, etc., but I have > always gotten the impression that Joni was past the point of having to > "forgive" herself. As she stated many times, she had no options, and > her decision to put her daughter up for adoption was not something that > she felt needed forgiveness. Rather, Joni had the best interests of her > child in mind, and I think that this is what really got her through the > years. Sure, the pain, guilt, shame, etc. didn't disappear, but I think > that Joni has never thought that she must be forgiven.... maybe her > sadness has abated, but I don't think forgiveness necessarily figures > into the equation. I think this is right on, Evian. I've also never sensed that, either. On my very first listen to Little Green when Blue was released, I knew immediately that she had given up a child for adoption. Everything about the song, her lyrics, the melody and the tone of her voice revealed deep sorrow, loss and regret but not guilt. We've had this thread go around before and many people have varying thoughts about the wherefores and whys. I recall getting particularly upset about some of the letters to various publications which blithely attacked her and questioned her motives, i.e., she selfishly wanted to pursue the music career and fame and didn't want to be saddled with the child. It's fact that she was in a completely untenable situation and I can respect her reasons for making the choice she made. Some people say "and then she became famous just a year later, blah, blah." Here's a thought - maybe the way she coped with the horrible pain of the whole situation of making a real wrong choice of a husband and having to give up her baby, was to go inside to the one thing she had left - her creative reservoir - and throw herself totally into it. Out of that immersion came a wealth of incredible songs, one right after the other. They got noticed, and she was quickly catapulted on her way. I'll never buy that she somehow calculated it all out in advance to give up the baby so she could be famous - maybe it would work that way for a mediocre talent who had someone grooming and packaging them and providing them with someone else's songs to play, but not Joni. She could not have calculated out those early songs and their effect in a million lifetimes. Kakki NP: Kenny Rankin - In The Name Of Love ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:05:03 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... In a message dated 9/17/99 9:03:21 AM US Central Standard Time, Siresorrow@aol.com writes: << Do y'all think she has forgiven herself? as demanding as she is in the studio, imagine how hard she must have been on herself over this. >> I don't think she ever felt the need to forgive herself, She did what she did in the best interest of her child...doesn't mean she never felt regret or grief over it though... Bob NP: Laura Nyro, "Sweet lovin' baby" (It tickles me how these NP's sometimes compliment a post subject...) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:15:07 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... In a message dated 9/18/99 5:07:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, RMuRocks@aol.com writes: << I don't think she ever felt the need to forgive herself, She did what she did in the best interest of her child...doesn't mean she never felt regret or grief over it though... >> (Good morning Bob!!) I agree with that statement! And beyond the regret and grief, I think that it was a situation that colored nearly everything, as was pointed out. Surely, (from my voyeur point of view only), it's had to have had its mark on trust issues and other heart/love situations. One thing that I believe makes her situation especially poignant is that she brought the baby home for about 3 months. Many adoptions are made at birth and you only have the aching aftermath. Here, she took that baby home, bathed her, fed her, loved her. I've been in awful emotional situations where love battled with other things, but I cannot imagine something like this. What a quandary! And yet, although she left clues and crumbs along the way, she never whined, she never complained. She just plowed forward. I have to admire that as well! MG - still working on the flooring project. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 05:42:18 PDT From: "Ben Mulvey" Subject: re: little Green < Do you think she would have made a > different plan for a baby?" I may be wrong here - but I think Joni mentions this in one (or more) of the interveiws up on the JMDL Cafe website. Where she more or less says (can't remember a quote) - that as a couple of years later she was making money and she would have. In all the times I've heard her mention this it come accross strongly how much she hated having to give the baby up - but as she was in absolute poverty - there wasn't much choice. Also she felt there was no one to turn to, and she was too ashamed to turn to her family. I guess its just as well she didn't get swallowed up by the Sister of Chartity/Magdalene Laundries, or their might never have been a Joni Mitchell at all!!! Ben ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:18:19 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: little Green In a message dated 9/18/1999 8:44:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, benjhk@hotmail.com writes: << I may be wrong here - but I think Joni mentions this in one (or more) of the interveiws up on the JMDL Cafe website. Where she more or less says (can't remember a quote) - that as a couple of years later she was making money and she would have. >> But Joni herself says: "Sometimes I get that feeling And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody I get that strong longing And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody But it passes like the summer I'm a wild seed again Let the wind carry me" Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:04:01 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... In a message dated 9/18/1999 8:17:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: << One thing that I believe makes her situation especially poignant is that she brought the baby home for about 3 months. Many adoptions are made at birth and you only have the aching aftermath. Here, she took that baby home, bathed her, fed her, loved her. I've been in awful emotional situations where love battled with other things, but I cannot imagine something like this. What a quandary! And yet, although she left clues and crumbs along the way, she never whined, she never complained. She just plowed forward. I have to admire that as well! MG - still working on the flooring project. >> wow can you imagine? Having a 3 month old and having to put her up for adoption....I found that impossible to do but I feel that Joni was looking after the best interest of her daughter but still the decsion was the hardest thing in her life she ever had to do. I think her sorrow is in almost every song she ever did..... Catgirl having just watched the BBC again.....you can see it in her eyes....now we all know why... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:40:10 -0400 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Photos >At 21:21 09/17/1999 EDT, Catgirl asked: > >>btw does anyone have a scanner that I may send these pics to for scanning? > >If there is a copy center (like Kinko's) near you, they usually have >professional quality scanners (better than most home scanners, these >produce very high quality scans) which you can use to make personal >copies for little cost... especially if you bring your own diskettes. I don't think Kinko's scans are much higher quality than what most people can do at home now. They tend to have the same HP scanners that alot of people use. Actually, a cheap flat bed scanner will scan a photo with the same quality alot of the more expensive ones do. Professional printing companies use drum scanners, which do scan at an extremely high precision, but can cost $20-$30 dollars a scan(as I found much to my dismay when I was having my cd booklet printed...) catgirl, I would be glad to scan any photos for you and could email the files directly to you and avoid having to save them to disk. Victor NP: J.Mitchell Hejira ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:17:36 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... At 08:05 AM 9/18/99 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/17/99 9:03:21 AM US Central Standard Time, >Siresorrow@aol.com writes: > ><< Do y'all think she has forgiven herself? as demanding as she is in the > studio, imagine how hard she must have been on herself over this. >> > > I don't think she ever felt the need to forgive herself, She did what she >did in the best interest of her child...doesn't mean she never felt regret or >grief over it though... > >Bob Vot?? Bob!! ^_^ (<--eyebrows raised incredulously) With a soul as deep and wide as Joni's and the propensity for a seeming need for confession in her work (not to *mention* the "Calvinistic" impressions of her mother and Joni's reasons for concealing her pregnancy form her folks,) you really think Joni never felt guilt? I sincerely doubt it. ^_^ A simple opinion... :) LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:29:59 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... In a message dated 9/18/99 11:15:02 AM US Central Standard Time, de_merle@iagora.com writes: << you really think Joni never felt guilt? >> Well, sure she felt a certain amount of guilt over the whole episode, but I just don't think she felt like she had to *forgive* herself...she's a brilliant and headstrong woman and always been, so she never would have done it if she considered it unforgiveable. So LL, you just put those eyebrows back down! :~) Bob NP: "Carey" from the Troubadour show, '72 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:35:59 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: little green... - -----Original Message----- De: MGVal@aol.com Para: joni@smoe.org Fecha: Sábado 18 de Septiembre de 1999 06:33 Asunto: Re: little green... >One thing that I believe makes her situation especially poignant is that she >brought the baby home for about 3 months. >MG - still working on the flooring project. well, if we feel this kind of withdrawal after being with one another for a couple of days, can you imagine what a person like joni might have felt when she had to live without the baby that she had been raising for 3 months? i think one thing is to live with the decision and quite another to live without the baby. wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:12:26 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... At 01:29 PM 9/18/99 -0400, RMuRocks@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 9/18/99 11:15:02 AM US Central Standard Time, >de_merle@iagora.com writes: > ><< you really think Joni never felt guilt? >> > >Well, sure she felt a certain amount of guilt over the whole episode, but I >just don't think she felt like she had to *forgive* herself...she's a >brilliant and headstrong woman and always been, so she never would have done >it if she considered it unforgiveable. > >So LL, you just put those eyebrows back down! :~) Pffft!! Methinks you misjudge, Bob. Brilliant and headstrong are not incompatible with guilt, which can be defined as sorrow, of a sort. I guess it depends on how one defines "guilt." Lessee..... ::::::::::::flippin' thru :: HEY!! Well, I would be flippin' through the Oxford English Dictionary, but TEENAGERS have torn my office asunder!! I am temporarily forced to resort to a thesaurus: guilt n 1. BLAME culpability, culpa, reprehensibility, criminality, guiltiness, crime, sin, wrongdoing, liability. Hmm. Not looking very promising, here, is it? 2. REMORSE regret, shame, conscience, contrition, disgrace, self-reproach, penitence, compunction. "The avenging fiend that follows us behind with whips and stings." ~ Nicholas Rowe "guilty," set 2 is even *better,* Bob. 2. REMORSEFUL regretful, ashamed, conscience-stricken, contrite, disgraced, *sorry* <<<<< :) Capitals courtesy of Roget, stars mine. According to Merriam-Webster: Pronunciation: 'gilt Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, delinquency, guilt, from Old English gylt delinquency Date: before 12th century 1 : the fact of having committed a breach of conduct especially violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct 2 a : the state of one who has committed an offense especially consciously b : feelings of culpability especially for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : SELF-REPROACH 3 : a feeling of culpability for offenses ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ So. Hmm? Not to *mention* wally's keen perception: "well, if we feel this kind of withdrawal after being with one another for a couple of days, can you imagine what a person like joni might have felt when she had to live without the baby that she had been raising for 3 months? i think one thing is to live with the decision and quite another to live without the baby. wallyk" This is not to say that *you* are not also keenly perceptive, Bob. Jes mebbe not 'bout the many pains illustrated in many different official words or terms that GUILT (caps mine) can perpetuate. :) So. Whadja have fer breakfast? :) LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:54:42 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green... LLDeMerle wrote: > With a soul as deep and wide as Joni's and the propensity for a seeming > need for confession in her work (not to *mention* the "Calvinistic" > impressions of her mother and Joni's reasons for concealing her pregnancy > form her folks,) you really think Joni never felt guilt? I think that she probably felt anguish at failing to fall in line with the accepted social mores of the day and the effect that could have on her parents's sensibilities. But guilt over not living up to what others may expect or believe is false guilt and was ultimately irrelevant in the larger picture of her circumstances. Kakki NP: Kenny Rankin - Laura Nyro's TIme and Love ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:39:53 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Didn't this whole little green thread start over how Joni seemed so much more at peace in TTT after she had reunited with Kilauren? And that there was some speculation with that tension and longing now resolved Joni may not be driven so intensely to release through her artistic expression? Here's a question in light of the other sensitive posts that point out how hard it was for Joni to give up Kelly (Kilauren) after bonding with her for three months. What does it say about Joni's trust in and respect of her parents, especially Myrtle, that she'd hide the birth and give the baby up for adoption rather than go to her folks for some help and support? (Not to mention what that says about Joni's pride.) Geez, that must have been a horrible kick in the teeth to Myrtle to find out years later that your daughter gave up a child she wanted to keep, instead of trusting there would be love and support at home. If Joni needs emotional conflict to write her most powerful and touching songs, my guess is it'll be her relationship with her mom that provides the lack of resolve to drive her creative energies. Penny ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 15:02:52 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... Hi Kakki, >I think that she probably felt anguish at failing to fall in line with the >accepted social mores of the day and the effect that could have on her >parents's sensibilities. Joni Mitchell has seemed to follow her heart for the most part and lived her life the way she's seen fit. When we are young, however, as young as she was at the time, we are tied much closer to the values of our parents, no matter how skewed they seem to be. We struggle against them and what we feel to be right, however, often they win out, even hundred of miles away. Time matures and takes us further away form the manipulations of this "false guilt" as you say. I may be mistaken, but from what I had read in the archives, Joni emphasized that the opinions of her parents were pretty much paramount in her decisions during those 2-3 years when she became pregnant, moved to Toronto with K's father, gave birth alone, married Mitchell in an attempt to keep her child, and then, finally after the marriage dissolved, told her parents of her child... I think she felt fear and reluctance to deal with their reaction over how she had conducted her personal life. "Going out you get the third degree, Coming in, you get World War III," (paraphrased) Her mother admitted in one of the interviews that this was pretty much the way things were. In addition to fear/reluctance at having to tolerate disapproval, belittling and carping (thanks, Roget) and whatever else would have occurred, there may well have been pride involved. Who is to know what kinds of things Joni's mother said? When she went to art school, her mother declared that she could never stick with and finish anything. Could be that her parents, or mother at least were highly critical, to the point of making it seem impossible to go to her/them when vulnerable and in need of support, expecting verbal pummeling and shaming. >But guilt over not living up to what others may >expect or believe is false guilt and was ultimately irrelevant in the larger >picture of her circumstances. Guilt over not living up to someone else's expectations basically translates to a fear of disappointing the holder of the expectations. Though Joni's mother says NOW that she and her husband would have been supportive, this was many years ago, and her mother may have changed her tune a little, however, my instinct is to go with what Joni indicates: that her mother was the unforgiving or at the very least, the "difficult to please" type. ??? For what it's worth... :) Ironically, now playing? "Face Lift" LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 15:26:00 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: little green... the guilt that i was thinking of had to do with the separation of a mother and child. having a child initiates life, but raising a child nurtures and develops that same life. in her choice, she limited herself from the second half of having children. that is not to judge her. half the stuff i have done in my life i'm quite shamed about. and i don't like guilt on anyone. but in her character is a sense of committment and devotion which we see in her music and i am thinking she would have that too in her other facets of life. i guess i am thinking that for her to have a child and allow someone else to raise it probably was a misery for many years on her heart. i do think she felt this her whole career and it oozes out in her songs. ....let me speak, let me spit out my bitterness guilt is a heavy burden and i'd not wish it on anyone. it messes me up sometimes. i'd be surprised if she did not suffer its wrath over the years. to not know where your child is. that is not for the weak. but at the same time, i am costantly amazed at the reunion for this very reason. it was a true miracle and i think she is walking on sacred ground. she is a chosen one, to spread a story of love. there is a bible story about a man born blind and the people ask jesus why was the man born blind, because of his sins or the sins of his parents. and he gives a rare simple answer.....neither. he was born blind so god's work can be revealed through him. then, god healed his sight. so, why did joni have to give up her child at birth? because of her sins, or the sins of her parents? neither.....so god's work could be revealed through her. then god returned her child to her. i am very pleased though to see all the different reads on this issue and we'll never know the whole story. and im sure our own stories affect how we see her story.ss ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:20:07 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Hi Penny, you wrote: > Here's a question in light of the other sensitive posts > that point out how hard it was for Joni to give up Kelly (Kilauren) > after bonding with her for three months. What does it say about Joni's > trust in and respect of her parents, especially Myrtle, that she'd hide > the birth and give the baby up for adoption rather than go to her folks > for some help and support? (Not to mention what that says about Joni's > pride.) What I envision Joni considering at the time was the specter of returning home a single mother, with a surprise child that was not her ex-husband's and having to deal with her mother's ferocious wrath. I think she felt this was the absolute worse option - coming home to the anger,and also feeling responsible for upsetting her parents' lives and causing them social embarrassment I think she probably thought she would never hear the end of it from her mother and, while I'm sure she personally wanted to avoid that scenario, more than that, I think she did not want to subject Kilauren to that kind of negative environment. She may have felt that her mother would have never let her live it down. And then how good of a mother could Joni have been at the time having to deal with the disapproval and recriminations? She wanted something much better and cleaner for her child. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:00:12 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... 'Oh. LL again.' :( Yes, have nothing better to do today than to hang out at "joni." Siresorrow@aol.com wrote: >that is not to judge her. half the stuff i have done in my life i'm quite >shamed about. and i don't like guilt on anyone. but in her character is a >sense of committment and devotion which we see in her music and i am thinking >she would have that too in her other facets of life. i guess i am thinking >that for her to have a child and allow someone else to raise it probably was >a misery for many years on her heart. i do think she felt this her whole >career and it oozes out in her songs. I feel the same way. >guilt is a heavy burden and i'd not wish it on anyone. it messes me up >sometimes. i'd be surprised if she did not suffer its wrath over the years. >to not know where your child is. that is not for the weak. To not know where your child is and then to go on, persevere in your work and art the way she did and then to gain such incredible success and recognition is quite an accomplishment. It denotes a strong spirit, which is of no surprise to anyone on this list, certainly. In one of the articles, K had said that she was very proud of her mother for not letting the situation stop her from doing what she felt she needed to, professionally. Joni likely threw herself into her work/art, because quite frankly, what else did she have with K gone and the Mitchell option crashed and burned? Frankly, I don't understand how she could stand to stay with him after having married him to keep K .and then giving UP K. because the marriage was not happening. Perhaps she stayed with Mitchell a while after K. was gone for appearances (her mother, again?) >i am very pleased though to see all the different reads on this issue and >we'll never know the whole story. and im sure our own stories affect how we >see her story.ss I'm sure that you are correct. I always say, "Perception is everything." LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:46:29 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green... LL and Siresorrow wrote: > >i am very pleased though to see all the different reads on this issue and > >we'll never know the whole story. and im sure our own stories affect how we > >see her story.ss > > > I'm sure that you are correct. I always say, "Perception is everything." I think some of us empathize with Joni in many ways - one of the reasons we are here on the list. I've also been surprised and amused lately at how a number of listmembers have told me "I also had Myrtle for a mother" ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:27:37 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... At 12:46 PM 9/18/99 -0700, Kakki wrote: >LL and Siresorrow wrote: > > > >i am very pleased though to see all the different reads on this issue and > > >we'll never know the whole story. and im sure our own stories affect how >we > > >see her story.ss > > > > > > I'm sure that you are correct. I always say, "Perception is everything." > >I think some of us empathize with Joni in many ways - one of the reasons we >are here on the list. I've also been surprised and amused lately at how a >number of listmembers have told me "I also had Myrtle for a mother" ;-) > >Kakki :) Well, I *did!* My mother had much different values than Myrtle does, however, she was still extremely critical and relentlessly difficult. That is, until I moved 350 miles aWAY. And *stayed* away. She caught on, eventually and miraculously changed until I went from being the scapegoat to the apple of her eye. Pretty amusing, in retrospect. At any rate, unfamiliar with the particulars of Joni's personal life, it was her lyrics that grabbed me 30 (did I say 30?? :::thud:::) years ago. I remember feeling, "This is someone who KNOWS something...important." LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:26:50 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: little green... > > > Well, sure she felt a certain amount of guilt over the whole episode, but I > just don't think she felt like she had to *forgive* herself...she's a > brilliant and headstrong woman and always been, so she never would have done > it if she considered it unforgiveable. I have read this over and over and it doesn't make sense to me. I agree, I suppose, that she would not have done something she felt was unforgiveable but I can't see it follows that she would not need to forgive herself. Joni, like the rest of us is human, and we all need to forgive ourselves. if we don't then life will be hard for we would be living with someone 24/7 that we resent. > > > So LL, you just put those eyebrows back down! :~) > > Bob > > NP: "Carey" from the Troubadour show, '72 - -- "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:31:47 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: All the way from New England Hello to all you peeps at this year's Jonifest. I've got a big big thank you owing. Today has been a Joni day extraordinaire! Just like a London Bus, you can wait for months and then three come at once. Walk down to the post office in the wind and the sun to pay the 6 pounds plus import duty on the Blue Gold Disc, which I had ordered many moons ago. Get home to find this Saturday morning's postman delivering a box from the top field. Very light, I think. A slip of paper falls out and falls to the ground. I pick it up. CONGRTATULATIONS!!!!!! You won this prize as part of the New England Labor Day Jonifest '99!!!! Enjoy!! HugsUKnowhoa. Whoever donated the vinyl cover-sized 'Taming the Tiger' print - and, indeed, whoever put my name in the raffle in the first place - I'm amazed! Whoever donated this wonderful picture - I want you to know it is in a good home where it will be appreciated - trouble is, I wouldn't want to frame it because I don't know which side I like best; the colour cover or the black & white photograph on the back, with Joni painting the original oil. I spent the afternoon in gold Blue on headphones and all I can say is that it is all you said it would be and more. Every song on here sounds like that brilliant elusive first take! We have an expression around here "You could bore for England" I've noticed people have started saying that I could "Joni for England", so I'll stop all of this now and just say another very big "ta!" PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:37:52 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: little green... > > > 2. REMORSE regret, shame, shame is different to guilt-vastly so. Guilt being the feeling we have when we know we have done something wrong, or omitted to do something etc.Shame is the feeling that we are not good enough, that we are bad, rotten, sinful, defective, unworthy of love. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:51:11 -0400 From: LLDeMerle Subject: Re: little green... At 09:37 PM 9/18/99 +0100, catman wrote: > > > > > > 2. REMORSE regret, shame, > >shame is different to guilt-vastly so. Guilt being the feeling we have when we >know we have done something wrong, or omitted to do something etc.Shame is the >feeling that we are not good enough, that we are bad, rotten, sinful, >defective, >unworthy of love. Well, that's Roget's opinion. I think of shame as embarrassment, but others will have their own experiences and opinions connected with the word. Do we wonder at the difficulty in communicating??!! L -leaving now, really -L LL ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v http://www.angelfire.com/ny/DeMerle/index.html de_merle@iagora.com "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:58:41 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Hi back at ya Kakki! and you wrote: What I envision Joni considering at the time was the specter of returning home a single mother, with a surprise child that was not her ex-husband's and having to deal with her mother's ferocious wrath. I think she felt this was the absolute worse option - coming home to the anger,and also feeling responsible for upsetting her parents' lives and causing them social embarrassment I think she probably thought she would never hear the end of it from her mother and, while I'm sure she personally wanted to avoid that scenario, more than that, I think she did not want to subject Kilauren to that kind of negative environment. She may have felt that her mother would have never let her live it down. And then how good of a mother could Joni have been at the time having to deal with the disapproval and recriminations? She wanted something much better and cleaner for her child. Kakki I agree completely with your accessment. Which is why I think Joni and Myrtle's relationship became even more strained when Joni went public about Kilauren. On one hand Joni had a huge burden eased and lifted by coming clean about Kilauren and then reuniting with her (the lighter feel of TTT) but now after she's settling in with that joy and relief, comes dealing with all the issues raised with Myrtle. I'm not saying I think Joni made a wrong decision in giving up her daughter. I'm saying the hurt between Joni and her mom is possibly Joni's most significant lingering emotional conflict because Myrtle must have been/is tremendously hurt by finding out Joni chose NOT to go to them, for whatever the reasoning. If Joni's art thrives on "unresolve", I think this may be where it will stem from currently. Penny ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:06:14 -0500 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: little green Terry wrote, supporting the possibility that Joni still might have relinquished Kilauren even if she had become pregnant several years later, when she had more financial security: "But Joni herself says: "Sometimes I get that feeling And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody I get that strong longing And I want to settle And raise a child up with somebody But it passes like the summer I'm a wild seed again Let the wind carry me" Me now: But I've always taken "Let the Wind Carry Me" to be very much a product of Joni's life *at the time it was written*: i.e, having *already* given one child up for adoption, having *already,* perhaps, funneled the ensuing pain and grief into her songs, as Kakki suggested, and having *already* achieved some modicum of fame and fortune through her career. *At that point,* she felt ambivalent about having another child. I've never interpreted this song, though, about having any bearing on what decision she might have made about raising *Kilauren* if circumstances had been different. . . . But that's me! Mary P. P.S. I've read several accounts of Kilauren's early months now: one, that Joni herself took her home for two or three months, and another, that Kilauren was in foster care the entire time. But, whatever the exact details may have been, it seems clear that the actual relinquishment was very difficult for Joni. At about the time she reunited with Kilauren, she said in an interview (with Robert Hilburn of the L.A. Times?) something to the effect of, "And the records indicate that, at the final court proceeding, I became extremely emotional. I don't remember exactly what happened that day, but I'm sure I did." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:16:48 -0500 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Joni quoted in Nickelodeon Cartoon!!!!! Julie, OOPS! Oh well, Joni news worth repeating to the newbies on here! Great subliminial messages for the kids..........can't you see the kids repeating these words 'cuz they heard them on a cartoon???? I can see Myles hearing Joni's FREE MAN IN PARIS for the first time and telling me she's quoting from Hey Arnold!! Ha! Laura Julie Z. Webb wrote: > At 07:57 PM 9/17/99 -0500, mann@chicagonet.net wrote: > >My five-year old was watching "Hey Arnold" Nicktoons > >knew them that Arnold's Friend says "A free man in > >Paris unfettered and alive". Arnold says, "huh?" > >Then Arnold's friend says, "I heard it on a hippie record". > >Anyone else catch this? Julie or Terry? Or any of you > >childless people who watch cartoons (I know you're out there!). > Laura, > Yes yes, I saw that on "Hey Arnold" last year when we tried cable for a > few months, and I wrote about it here. I couldn't believe it when I heard > it! Like you, I was busy folding laundry and overheard it. If I recall, I > think that this cartoon comment began a thread about where Joni's lyrics > have appeared in surprising places. > -Julie > ps Laura, I have yet to get that "firetalk" gear (microphone etc,) so we > can chat via our computers. Will work on it this weekend. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:03:55 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me Penny wrote: >Which is why I think Joni and Myrtle's relationship became even more strained when Joni went >public about Kilauren. On one hand Joni had a huge burden eased and lifted by >coming clean about Kilauren and then reuniting with her (the lighter >feel of TTT) but now after she's settling in with that joy and relief, >comes dealing with all the issues raised with Myrtle. Interesting to consider how Myrtle may be dealing with it now. I would hope that at her age and at this stage in her life she would have resolved and transcended much of it and would just simply be happy and grateful for having lived to know her grandchild and great-grandchildren. I hope she would have gained that wisdom by now. And if she still feels any latent anger and recrimination towards Joni, she must also feel a little of that anger coming back on herself for her part in causing Joni to feel cut off in that way. > I'm saying the hurt between Joni and her mom is possibly Joni's most significant > lingering emotional conflict because Myrtle must have been/is > tremendously hurt by finding out Joni chose NOT to go to them, for > whatever the reasoning. If Joni's art thrives on "unresolve", I think > this may be where it will stem from currently. I agree, and while I suspect that Myrtle has resolved it pretty well, I don't think it will ever be completely resolved for Joni - it runs too deep. Just MHO. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:09:18 -0700 From: "Ray & Cathy" Subject: re: Joni pic Dear Ashara and friends at Jonifest '99, A thousand thanks for making it possible for me to be sitting here gleaming with my new Joni picture from the raffle! Affectionately, Cathy in Oregon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:47:53 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil (vljc) I may be totally wrong about this but: if you wanted to record a published, copyrighted song on an album, I don't believe you had any obligation other than crediting it properly. The entity that owns the album is then responsible for paying royalties to the writers and publishers of the copyrighted material. This is called the compulsory license and applies to small (non-dramatic) uses of songs once they have been published. (What constitutes "publication" may be subject to question, but I believe that it has been clearer since the Copyright Act of 1976 took effect. I it's been recorded before and that recording offered for sale, it's published.) If you were doing a theatre piece using copyrighted songs, that would be a different story, but from what you've written here, unless I completely misunderstand you, you never had to ask them at all. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:43:15 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Joni Standards Album Just opened my Mark Isham newsletter and found this - "Mark was proud to play with another of his favorite artists, Joni Mitchell, on her upcoming album. His trumpet solos will be featured along with appearances by Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter [whoohoo!] and the London Philharmonic Orchestra - pretty good company!" It's feeling more real all the time! Kakki NP: Tito Puente soundcheck across the street - (and I have to go into work ;-( ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:33:41 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: little green In a message dated 9/18/1999 5:06:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PitassiM@WEAC.org writes: << I've never interpreted this song, though, about having any bearing on what decision she might have made about raising *Kilauren* if circumstances had been different. >> Mary, I agree. That's why I wrote "a baby", not Kilauren, when I suggested that she may have known long ago that raising a child wasn't something she felt she could do. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:06:12 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Standards Album In a message dated 9/18/99 7:12:05 PM US Central Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << Mark was proud to play with another of his favorite artists, Joni Mitchell, on her upcoming album. >> That's great to hear, his work on the "Day In the Garden Show" was wonderful...much more textured and emotional than Chris Botti... Bob NP: S.Vega, "Straight Lines" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:08:24 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: little green / let the wind carry me In a message dated 9/18/99 5:38:01 PM US Central Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << I agree, and while I suspect that Myrtle has resolved it pretty well, I don't think it will ever be completely resolved for Joni >> I don't know, Kakki, Joni says that Myrtle was all huffy about "Face Lift", I'm not sure they've kissed and made up over any of this old dirt...sounds like Myrtle can hold a grudge like my old Granny... Bob ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #196 ****************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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