From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #146 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, August 7 1999 Volume 01 : Number 146 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Enough with the Judy Bashing! (SJC) [Don Rowe ] Re: SJC - Re. message to the American Garage (Pat Metheny Listener Network) [Siresorrow@aol] Re: Enough with the Judy Bashing! (SJC) [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: Meeting Other Joni fans [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Meeting Other Joni fans [Siresorrow@aol.com] Joni one-liners-DJRD [Randy Remote ] Re: the things we do for love [catman ] Re: Joni Tribes ["Kakki" ] Sentence of the Court [Don Rowe ] Re: Enough with the Judy Bashing! (SJC) [Brian Gross ] Re: Enough with the Judy Bashing! (SJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Re: the things we do for love [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Joni one-liners (Clouds) [Casey Certis-Milby ] Re: Joni one-liners [TerryM2442@aol.com] Silky Veils of Ardor (was one-liners) [Bolvangar@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:42:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Enough with the Judy Bashing! (SJC) > They (Joni/Judy) often get lumped > together because they both had long hair and guitars > thirty years ago. > Yep, and the fact that they were both slyvan-voiced sopranos and one did the others material did little to prevent this lumping. In reality, the two could not be more different in their approach to singing, or music in general. Anyone willing to "listen" to both differently will not find it hard to appreciate both. I especially liked your story about your communication with Judy, and not to Joni-bash, I'm not so sure she would have responded in kind. Though I'm willing to be proven wrong, and I'm well aware of Joni's kindness and consideration for Wally ... > Try Judy's 1982 album "Times Of Our Lives". Its a > good one. And read her book "Singing Lessons" from > last year. She's definitely got style and class. I both have the album and have read the book. The "Singing Lessons" companion CD is a wonderful little gem of it's own BTW. While I agree with Mr. Dulson that Judy appears "naive" in places, she also presents a very frank and revealing picture about just how misguided and dangerous 1960s thinking could be. It's reading I recommend strongly to anyone still harboring romantic illusions about that time. Don Rowe _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 14:42:31 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: SJC - Re. message to the American Garage (Pat Metheny Listener Network) there is a nice piece in august's 'guitar player' magazine on pat metheny and jim hall. the piece describes some of the different personality quirks of each player, especially when they recorded together. there is also a nice piece on carlos santana that really shows his spirituality and his approach to playing music based on his spiritual beliefs. ss. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 14:46:08 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Enough with the Judy Bashing! (SJC) In a message dated 8/6/99 12:02:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RPBell3@newchurch.edu writes: << About 5 years ago I was going through a bad time. There was a particular Judy song that grabbed my attention at the time, and I wrote her a quick note of thanks or whatever, because I wanted her to know that something she had done was having a positive effect on this one soul. I received a very nice (and totally unsolicited) reply about a month later; very encouraging and offering suggestions...etc. etc. She took the time to reply and let me know that my problems were valid and that she understood, and was pleased that her art could help in some small way. >> this is very beautiful that she took the time to read and to respond. i believe there are genuine exchanges of the heart that move through music and what you experienced was one of those and what she experienced was the same, but from the other end, and she obviously UNDERSTOOD that. VERY COOL. and i never use capital letters in email. ss. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 14:50:42 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Meeting Other Joni fans In a message dated 8/6/99 2:08:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ginamu@aol.com writes: > < and humility from Judy. She has certainly been no > less slighted by the "star maker machinery" of the > music business, but refuses to lash out with the kind > of harsh whining that has made even us die-hard Joni > fans cringe when we see it in the press. Though the quote I took of Don's was in regard to the Judy Collins thread, it inspired my thinking about *this* thread. I had a friend in high school who was into Joni a couple of years before I was - around 1974. She was listening to Blue and Court and Spark and I recall hearing these albums at parties (I thought Help Me was a weird song then) and such but it just didn't register until that one night three years when I heard Amelia on the radio and became transfixed and later, obsessed with Joni Mitchell's work. My friend, Hazel, continued to like Joni through DJRD but began to really dislike her precisely for the reasons Don states above. She just couldn't stand Joni's attitudes and when I brought up Joni she would just wince and shudder at what a nasty, vicious, snobbish person she came across as in the press. It left a sufficiently bad taste in her mouth that she pretty much gave up on Joni, though I recall also that she became somewhat disillusioned by Joni's departure from the confessional/autobiographical style of Blue and into more experimental styles. I wrote to my friend by email recently and mentioned Joni and the JMDL but I got very little response. She did mention her current obsession with the work of Leonard Cohen, whose attitudes I don't know much about. I think the only time I read anything I can recall about Leonard Cohen, it was a review of the album The Future (which I own and really like) and an interview he did of Suzanne Vega (seems she's a big fan) which I thought was sort of odd, as it appeared that he was really flirting with her and it seemed sort of condescending and impacted negatively on the interview. Again, I don't know enough about him to determine if this is just his way or what the deal was, but...anyway...I think I'm rambling as I am sometimes capable of...so...well...that's my little story about the only other "Joni-who-is-no-longer-a-Joni -fan" in my life. The others, well...they all like Court and Spark...you know the script. Take care, Gina (with time on her hands, no child to raise but only for the next hour or so before they come bounding back!) NP: Cowboy Junkies - Black Eyed Man ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:11:54 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Meeting Other Joni fans In a message dated 8/6/99 2:54:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ginamu@aol.com writes: << Leonard Cohen, whose attitudes I don't know much about. I think the only time I read anything I can recall about Leonard Cohen, it was a review of the album The Future (which I own and really like) and an interview he did of Suzanne Vega (seems she's a big fan) which I thought was sort of odd, as it appeared that he was really flirting with her and it seemed sort of condescending and impacted negatively on the interview. >> i just read a book about him based on markntravis' original post on the priest and i would say he appears as a flirt in the book and the essence of the priest in the early stanzas is that he is flirting with the singer, 'showing his valentines". this seems totally consistant with the impression the writer ira nadel gives of him in his biography. perhaps suzanne vega was too young and star strcuk to see what was going on. ss. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 12:15:44 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Joni one-liners-DJRD Sorry if these are more than one liners-I just can't dissect her up that fine! Cotton Avenue If you got a place like that to go, you just gotta go there If you got no place special, well then you just go no place special Talk To Me Are you really exclusive or just miserly? You spend every sentence as if it was marked currency Jericho Maybe they'll short sell you Or maybe it's you, Judas in the end.. Paprika Plains I spot you through the smoke With your eyes on fire from J&B and coke Otis and Marlena Marlena, under Foster Grants She's undercover from the dawn's advance Dreamland Donkey venders slicing coconut No parkas to their name Don Juan's Reckless Daughter Noble as a nickel chief Striking up an old jukebox and As we siphon the colored language off the farms and the streets and What strange prizes these battles bring these hectic joys, these weary blues Puffed up and strutting when I think I win Down and shaken when I think I lose Off Night Backstreet She's keeping your house neat-and your sheets sweet and Who left her long black hair In our bathtub drain? The Silky Veils of Ardor But I have no wings And the water is so wide We'll have to row a little harder It's just in dreams we fly ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 20:47:59 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: the things we do for love Spend money meant for bills on new Joni cd's. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:29:56 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni Tribes Catherine wrote: > Kakki, that is totally scary. I could have written that myself. You've > picked what are (to me) THE chilling, thrilling lines out of all those > songs. (Cue the soundtrack from the Twilight Zone - or is it the Outer > Limits?) DOO doo doo doo, DOO doo doo doo etc. It's that synchro Tribe of Joni thing. Ever since I found this list, I've been overwhelmed by the number of times I think "Me, too" when I read the posts. As for the talk about the rarity of finding other Joni fans, I was so spoiled in my youth - virutally all of my friends and boyfriends loved and were as much into Joni as we are. I was happily surrounded by constant Joni music at gatherings on a regular basis for years. Then I went away to college and reality hit - I could hardly find anyone who liked Joni or even knew about her ;-( I was also like Gina - a guy I started dating yelled at me to turn off the Joni music, that she was "horrible, depressed, shrieking, awful, screeching, an abomination, etc." I immediately dropped him like a "Lead Balloon"!! I did, however, manage to convert several college roommates to Joni - they were inundated with the music from my record player and guitar on a daily basis and they fell right in with plan ;-) Most of my friends today are indifferent to her but know better to respect my obsession! Kakki NP: Joni - Carnival in Kenora ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:03:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Sentence of the Court Considering what Bob's done for love: > > Tough question, Casey. At first I was going to > mention the time I sold > crack to school children so I could buy Night Ride > Home, but then I thought > about the time I had to beat the crap out of an old > lady to take her For > The Roses songbook from her Mr. Muller ... It is the judgement of this court that you be taken from this place and bound in the stocks. Super sweet Sennheiser headphones shall be clasped upon your ears, and a tape loop of "Dancing Clown" will be played for you at full volume for a period not to exceed three days! So ordered! Judge Rowe _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:26:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Enough with the Judy Bashing! (SJC) - ---Gina wrote: > And just to get in a litte JC, I'd like to ask (I think this has been brought > up here before), what else by Joni Mitchell did Judy Collins record besides > Both Sides, if anything? I thought there was another but it won't come to me > now. On Judy's album "Wildflowers" she includes Michael From Mountains, along with Both Sides, Now. On the same album, by the way, are 3 songs written by Leonard Cohen. They are: Priests (gee, I wonder if he was wearing his 'father's tie'?), Sisters of Mercy, and Hey, That's No Way To Say Goodbye. Welcome to all the newbies and delurkers. Take care, Brian nw: History's Mysteries === "No paper thin walls No folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:24:08 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni one-liners > I was inspired by Mark's C&S one-liners. > Help Me > ....I've seen some hot hot blazes come down in smoke and ash This was my other choice from this song. I even started to type it but decided to go with the repeated line which was such a good description of relationships in the 70's. > People's Parties > ....laughin' and cryin' you know it's the same release I almost chose this one, too. Some great choices, Marian! I can never figure out why people refer to this album as 'Joni-lite'. To me it's just as provocative and deep as any of the others. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:55:08 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Enough with the Judy Bashing! (SJC) Harper Lou writes: > Well said, Don. > > Joni is a gifted musical genius, a one-of-a-kind in this century. > > But that does not diminish Judy Collins' formidable talent. And Judy has > been a sincere friend and fan of Joni Mitchell for many years. > > Judy has a beautiful voice, bell-like and unique styling. Also, some of the > material she has written (based on her own life and pain) is on par with any > other folk songwriter. Hearing Judy perform her own songs will give you > more than one goosebump, guaranteed. While I agree that Judy Collins has a beautiful voice I have to say that the few songs I've heard that she's written are not my cup of tea. Back in the 70's I bought the double LP retrospective 'So Early in the Spring' mainly because a friend had played the song 'Bread and Roses' for me which I liked quite a lot. I found that I really enjoyed the earliest cuts on this collection, mostly the traditional folk songs that she sang so beautifully. 'Pretty Polly' (kind of a gruesome little tune - reminds me of Steeleye Span's 'Long Lankin'), 'Bonnie Ship The Diamond', 'Blue Tatoo' and (I can feel you cringing Roberto) especially 'Farewell to Tarwaithe' which is accompanied solely by whale-song and is hauntingly beautiful. The original compositions ('Secret Gardens', etc) were just a bit too airy and precious for my taste. And although Judy's cover of Both Sides, Now doesn't make me wretch, I don't think it was particularly remarkable either aside (of course) from the quality of the song itself. 'Send in the Clowns' is ok but I agree with Roberto that the song needs more of an actress' touch to really get the most out of it. I've only heard Judy's version and Glynnis Johns on the 'A Little Night Music' cast album and - oh yes. Liz's take from the unfortunate film version. I rented the movie once. How could they have botched such wonderful material so badly? I also recall Cher singing it on one of her television shows. Imagine that if you dare! My other memory about Judy Collins is that horrible 'Hard Times For Lovers' that played on the radio a lot around '79 or '80. She sounded flat throughout that one, to my ears anyway. But I believe someone on the list said she had nodes or some trouble with her voice around that time. I haven't heard anything from her for some time but I understand from things I've read and heard that she is in good voice these days . It is important, I think, that Judy did give Joni's music a wide exposure. I certainly knew the song BSN long before I knew who Joni was or knew any of her other songs. Bear in mind I grew up in Keokuk, Iowa. No coffee houses, no interviews on the radio. Just word of mouth, what was on the radio, the tv or in the movies. I don't remember even seeing a Rolling Stone until I went to college. Not all of us grew up in LA or on the East Coast. So Judy did manage to get at least one of Joni's songs to a wide audience. I'm certainly grateful to her for that. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:57:55 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Judy Collins's Hit Song (SJC) Brett sez: > Compare Judy and the others to Annie Lennox on "Medusa". She can do a good > cover. Interesting, too, how close her version of 'Ladies of the Canyon' is > to Joni's - shows respect, intimacy, understanding. I think the Annie Lennox cover is fun. It remains true to the spirit of the original but gives it a Beatles-Penny-Lane kinda feeling. That's what it made me think of, anyway. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 19:42:32 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Joni one-liners Sunny Sunday She dodges the light like Blanche DuBois Sex Kills Doctors pills give you brand new ills and the bills bury you like an avalanche Turbulent Indigo He'd piss in their fireplace he'd drag them through Turbulent Indigo Not To Blame Not one wet eye around her lonely little grave Borderline Every bristling shaft of pride church or nation team or tribe Yvette In English Her cigarette burns her finger tips as it falls like fireworks she curses it Magdalene Laundries And they'll plant me in the dirt like some lame bulb that never blooms Sire of Sorrow Why have you soured and curdled me? And my favorite of all - I could drink a case of you and still be on my feet...... Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:00:43 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: the things we do for love In a message dated 8/6/99 12:20:53 PM, Ginamu@aol.com wrote: <<> So here's my question - what's the worst thing you've ever done for love > of Joni? > This is probably the *best* thing I could have done actually, but I turned down a second date with an otherwise really nice guy because he said he thought Joni was ugly. So you see, it would never have worked. The nerve! >> Along a similar line: The date was over 5 minutes into the dinner when he told me that he drove cross country one summer listening to a Joni tape, but couldn't remember the name. All he recalled was that it had a song about a farmhouse burning down. "Heijra's the album! Coyote is the song!" I shouted out as I jumped from the table and knock over all of the plates, glasses and silverware. And to myself I thought, "sheesh, what a jerk." The end. MG np: Colleen chattering in the background ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 21:27:57 -0700 From: Casey Certis-Milby Subject: Re: Joni one-liners (Clouds) Tin Angel ...What will happen if I try to place another heart in him Chelsea Morning ...We'll put on the day and we'll talk in present tenses I Don't Know Where I Stand ... And feeling too foolish and strange to say the words that I had planned That Song About the Midway ... And you stood out like a ruby in a black man's ear Roses Blue ... In sorrow she can lure you where she wants you Inside your own self-pity there you swim The Gallery ... Your mail comes here from everywhere The writing looks like ladies' I Think I Understand ... It's there I'll take my thirsty fill of friendship over wine Songs to Aging Children Come ...Does the moon play only silver When it strums the galaxy The Fiddle and the Drum ... What time is this To trade the handshake for the fist Both Sides, Now ... But now old friends are acting strange They shake their heads, they say I've changed Casey - -- "It is good to have an end to journey towards; but it is the journey that matters in the end." U.K.LeG. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:40:27 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni one-liners "My analyst told me, that I was right outta my head"... Dr. SigMondegreen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:05:03 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Silky Veils of Ardor (was one-liners) Roberto wrote: <> As you may know, this stanza (like all the stanzas in that song) is a pretty close rewrite of a folk stanza, specifically: Oh had I wissed [known] when first I kissed That love would be so ill to win I'd have kept my heart in a cage of gold And pinned it with a silver pin Roberto's singling out this stanza makes me think of all the different things that I like different Joni lyrics for -- the basic idea of the lyric, the execution of the idea, etc. I like this stanza for the embellishments ("killing crime," "crazy beating," "silky veils of ardor") that intensify the basic idea. For comparison, a song by one of my absolute favorite singer/songwriters, Lal Waterson, treats this same theme (I'm sure she was aware of the folk source too) in an equally interesting, personal way: "....Was it me that broke my heart? Did I have a heart to break? It was lain in armor, covered in silver plate Done by me deliberately, if I had a heart to break...." (from _Once in a Blue Moon_) - --David NP: Beastie Boys, _Check Your Head_ ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #146 ****************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?