From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #140 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, August 3 1999 Volume 01 : Number 140 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni tablatures and tunings - how do you do it? [CarltonCT@aol.com] Joni Mitchell tribute CD [j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi] Re: Joni Mitchell tribute CD [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Joni tablatures and tunings - how do you do it? [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Thoughts on the VH1 ranking [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Joni tablatures and tunings - how do you do it? [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Thoughts on the VH1 ranking [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: VH1-100 (Joni content) [Heather Galli ] Re: VH1 thang - SJC [Heather Galli ] Re: hawaiian tunings [Randy Remote ] UK Meet [Martin Giles ] Leonard Cohen & The Priest SJC [Siresorrow@aol.com] RE: hawaiian tunings ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Thoughts on the VH1 ranking [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Leonard Cohen & The Priest SJC [Phyliss Ward ] David, joni & tunings ["Alison Einerson" ] Re: Thoughts on the VH1 ranking ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Leonard Cohen & The Priest SJC [Siresorrow@aol.com] RE: VH1 & Tunings [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Leonard Cohen & The Priest SJC ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: VH1 & Tunings ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: VH1 & Tunings [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Leonard Cohen & The Priest SJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Sometimes it just hits me [PJT ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 04:51:00 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Joni tablatures and tunings - how do you do it? Once again, I want to thank Sue M. and Howard W. and Mark D. and Marion and all the rest who have figured out Joni's tunings and tabs and made them available to us. But just how do you guys do it? Years ago, I bought Joni songbooks and was disappointed until one of them actually included her tunings and the right guitar tabs. From there, I was able to figure out some other songs on my own. But just how would you figure out some of these individual tunings unless Joni showed you? Somehow our very amazing musicians here have done just that. I'm trying to familiarize myself with the basic structure of nearly all Joni's songs, and decided to start at the beginning. So it just amazed me that I Had a King is very similar to a frequently used tuning except the f# is an e and you put the capo on 7th fret! Who knew? How was this figured out? I have derived hours pleasure from Sue's Tabs and once again want to deeply thank everyone who has posted their transcriptions there. Now could you please tell us how you go about it? Also, is it possible that there are some songs Joni never did in concert because they are too difficult to pick and sing at the same time? I have never heard her do Barangrill or Electricity as an example. - - Clark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 02:49:10 +0300 From: j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi Subject: Joni Mitchell tribute CD Forwarded from the Eurythmics mailing list: > Subject: Annie Lennox on Joni Mitchell tribute CD > > The Joni Mitchell Tribute CD featuring Annie Lennox has been in the > works > for a very long time. There is speculation that Annie's version of > Joni's > "Ladies Of The Canyon" will be the song on the album, though I'd love > to > hear her tackle something like The Jungle Line, Hejira, or Just Like > This > Train. > > There was recently a Joni Mitchell tribute concert in NYC (July 1 - > Canada > Day) at the Summerstage in Central Park that featured a host of > terrific > musicians performing for a crowd of hundreds, including Joni herself > who was > front row, center - talk about intimidating! So I think the release > of the > tribute album is imminent. I get lots of news about Joni so I'll be > sure to > keep my eyes peeled for any announcements. > > Other artists who will be featured on the tribute album not mentioned > by > Jack Mack include Prince and Sarah McLachlan - it's sure to be a > great > album. - --jussi ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:10:51 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell tribute CD Jussi commented on the Tribute project: << Other artists who will be featured on the tribute album not mentioned > by > Jack Mack include Prince and Sarah McLachlan - it's sure to be a > great > album. >> I also know that Elvis C. will have a track on it - it's been in the works for awhile now, I'll be glad when it sees the light of day. This is quite torturous for a covers junkie like me! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:13:36 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni tablatures and tunings - how do you do it? In a message dated 8/2/99 3:53:35 AM Central Daylight Time, CarltonCT@aol.com writes: << Also, is it possible that there are some songs Joni never did in concert because they are too difficult to pick and sing at the same time? I have never heard her do Barangrill or Electricity as an example. >> Clark, though I'm sure that's likely, Barangrill is on TT#7 performed at Temple University (during the same tour that gave us MOA) and I've got a live version of Electricity also that was recorded in the early 70's on the BBC... And as always, I'm happy to share! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:44:25 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Thoughts on the VH1 ranking In a message dated 99-08-01 23:13:05 EDT, raven@igc.org writes: Marcels take: apologies to no one. << The top 10 were: 1. ARETHA FRANKLIN Hard for me to see Aretha here and I adore her music. Shes a great vocalist. Period. I do not believe that she could be attributed any music or cultural effects from her career without stretching the facts a bit. 2. TINA TURNER A case could be made for Tina because her career has not only spanned decades but she has had crosssover appeal and totally changed her style at least three times. The fact that shes still hip at her age while only being a vocalist is a tribute to her being a total package. 3. JANIS JOPLIN Janis was a fabulous act. I saw her a number of times. However her voice was so unusual that no one could go where she went. So who could she influence ? 5. JONI MITCHELL Joni would be my vote simply because she is the entire spectrum of the art, industry, business and abilities. The only thing Joni hasnt done is market her sexuality for which I give her a ton of credit. Shes the anti-madonna. The best female musician, artist of all time. 6. BILLIE HOLIDAY Billie more or less blazed the trail that everyone else got to walk down. the Sugar Ray Robinson of female singers. Only one catch. Bessie Smith was probably a more profound influence upon more female vocalists than Billie. But Billie had the interaction with the white audience which came from the dawn of the technology that allowed for her to be heard by more people than Bessie did. 7. CHRISSIE HYNDE I have always said Chrissie is the best female ROCK guitar player ever including Bonnie Rait. The Pretenders were a monster band in the 80's and her musicianship and stage presence are up there with other top acts even among men. 8. MADONNA Mick jagger once described Madonna as a "Thimblefull of tallent in a sea of ambition" and I think hes right on. Madonna is basically nothing if you eliminate her flaunting her sexuality. For as monstrous an entity that Madonna is in truth just try to name 10 of her songs or 5 real accomplishments. Ill never forget Bette Middlers introducing Madonna at Live Aid. By the time she got through with the introduction you didnt even WANT madonna to perform. 9. ANNIE LENNOX The most beautiful voice in the business. 10. CAROLE KING A monster songstress. One of the historical figures in music history. The effects of her works are far reaching but like many song writers God just didnt give her a good enough voice and she was too business like to market her tush. See madonna. CONCLUSION: Hard to see Joni Mitchell at 5. Perhaps if Joni had pushed the envelope morally (such as Madonnas televised pajama parties) and been the crass self promoter Madonna has been she would have won. Who cares, we all know shes the best artist on the whole list by a mile. Marcel Deste. >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:24:07 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Joni tablatures and tunings - how do you do it? It helps out a lot if you have the correct tuning. Several times the tunings on Wally's page were incorrect so it was up to the transcribers to figure out the right tuning. Once you know that and you have seen another tab in that tuning, most of the shapes don't change from song to song. For example, when I did DJRD, I looked at Howard's tab of Coyote and the shapes like 002220 were the same. It takes a heck of a lot of fooling around too. When I did Eastern Rain (my favorite unreleased song to date) it came pretty easily, especially the eastern-sounding single note riff on the 2nd string. I just started playing something and before I knew it I had the song. At 4:51 AM -0400 8/2/99, CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: >Once again, I want to thank Sue M. and Howard W. and Mark D. and Marion >and all the rest who have figured out Joni's tunings and tabs and made them >available to us. But just how do you guys do it? ____________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | home.revealed.net/Harpua | |__________________________| ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 99 07:50:53 PDT From: Frances Liccione Subject: [none] Was it just me or were there others out there who were very disappointed by the montage presented by VH1 of the #5 artist? That repetitious sample of Big Yellow Taxi - couldn't they have played more snippets of other songs? Why did we have to hear the rap version over and over again? Also, did anyone notice that that red-headed Scottish sounding young woman occupied a lot of "commentary" space? What was her name again? And why did I have to see her comment on every other artist? Don't get me wrong, I was happy that Joni scored so high, but, gee, VH1 sure does need to get on the ball, in my humble opinion. Frances ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:25:12 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Thoughts on the VH1 ranking In a message dated 8/2/99 8:47:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << Mick jagger once described Madonna as a "Thimblefull of tallent in a sea of ambition" >> And Mick ought to recognize a thimbleful of talent when he sees one after spending so much time in front of his mirror. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:31:13 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: Re: VH1-100 (Joni content) >First of all, I commend VH1 for getting Joni Mitchell to the top five. Next, >I congratulate them for getting good comments from a wide variety of >musicians, (Mellencamp's comments were God-like!! Thank you, John). Now, >I'd like to go on the record as being totally pissed that the only clips and >photos shown of JM were from the Laurel Canyon period, with one little moment >from a live performance of "Help Me".....that showed Joni only, no shot of >the band. > I couldn't agree more! I wanted to give John a huge kiss for the comment he made! As I kept watching, I was waiting for some recent clips .... like from A Day in the Garden last year or her appearances on Rosie and Good Morning America. I do love the clip of her playing the dulcimer. I went back and watched the clip of Joni from VH1's Top 100 in Rock (was that last year?) .... at least they showed a clip from the Come In From The Cold video. Do you think Joni had some say in what was to be viewed on these VH1 Top 100 programs? Gee, with our excellent video tree tapes, we could have done a better job with the Joni segment ;-) Heather >For someone seeing JM for the first time, the picture was so much less than >an accurate "snapshot" of her career. For big-time followers like me, there >was the beauty of the scene playing dulcimer, which I hadn't seen before, but >this tidbit should have been wedged in among clips of the entire span of >JM's career. The segments of Bonnie Raitt and Chrissie Hynde showed both of >them early-on in their careers, flashed photos and clips of various periods, >and then ran clips of them FRONTING BANDS. Where the hell was similar >footage of Ms. Mitchell??? No Pat Metheny, Jaco Pastorius, LA Express, and >certainly not anything of Klein, Blade or the 80's/90's backing bands. Not >even five seconds from the Leno/Letterman appearances of the last few years. >Don't get me wrong, I didn't want to see the BANDS, I wanted people to see >Joni Mitchell leading strong, talented male musicians through her body of >work, over a long period of time. Call me a dreamer. > >The clips were beautiful (as she is), but all from about a 3 or 4-year period >of time, and I feel slighted on her behalf. > >All-in-all, I thought VH1 did well with this series. I enjoyed all of the >hosts, arrangement of segments, variety of women covered, etc. I'd just like >to have 5 minutes with the guy or gal who put together the JM presentation. >In a closed room. > >I'm headed to the VH1 home page to send some feedback. Everyone enjoy what's >left of summer break..... > >Terry Reid ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:08:09 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: Re: VH1 thang - SJC >Was it just me or were there others out there who were very disappointed by >the montage presented by VH1 of the #5 artist? That repetitious sample of Big >Yellow Taxi - couldn't they have played more snippets of other songs? Why did >we have to hear the rap version over and over again? Also, did anyone notice >that that red-headed Scottish sounding young woman occupied a lot of >"commentary" space? What was her name again? And why did I have to see her >comment on every other artist? > >Don't get me wrong, I was happy that Joni scored so high, but, gee, VH1 sure >does need to get on the ball, in my humble opinion. > Maybe the Big Yellow Taxi clip is repeated because that is what some people (producers?) think other people (the public?) should remember. That young woman you are referring to is Ms. Manson from the group "Garbage". Personally I think she is wonderful! I get a kick out of her artistic style! I may be criticized for this but I think she is the next Debbie Harry (and I love Debbie's work too). I thought Manson was from Ireland (??) Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 09:44:30 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: hawaiian tunings Wally Kairuz wrote: > that's interesting! randy, do you know any of these tunings? I like it when > strings are so loose that they actually flap > wallyk Here are some DGDGBD G or Taro Patch Tuning DGDF#BD Double slack or G wahine DGDGBE Another G tuning CGDGBE Another G tuning (w/C bass) CGDGBD G w/C bass tuning DGDEAD Old Maunaloa G tuning DADF#AC# D Wahine XGCGAE C6th Samoa tuning (omit 6th str. or tune to low C) EAEEAE A tuning notes The taro patch tuning is the most popular. There are lots of others besides these. Most slack key playing involves playing an alternating bass on the lower strings, while playing the melody up and down the fretboard. wahine (wah-HE-nee) is hawaiian for woman, and is used to describe the "feminine" sound of the major 7th chord. If you are interested in learning slack key, get in touch with Hal Kinnaman, P.O. Box 631, Kalaheo, HI 96741. He sells an instruction tab booklet with a tape, and clear explanations to get you started. Dancing Cat Records has been releasing the "Slack Key Masters" series for the last few years, and they are wonderful. Ray Kane, Keola Beamer, and others. There are some awesome players. One of them, I forget which, has a technique of playing with a needle and thread in his teeth so the needle hangs across the strings as he plays. Never thought of that, but it's a cool effect. RR > > > >Hawaiian guitar music has used alternate tunings extensively > >since at least the 1920's. It is called "slack key" guitar > >because the strings are loosened to create open chord tunings ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 19:00:34 +0100 From: Martin Giles Subject: UK Meet I'm definitely up for the UK meet. I'll come by car (my Lord, come by car ;~) - so if anyone in the London/Middlesex area needs a lift email me privately. Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:09:40 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Leonard Cohen & The Priest SJC i thought i'd just transcribe a few lines from a book about leonard cohen which i picked up last week. +++++++ Into this world of security and comfort Leonard Cohen was born, his first name continuing the tradition of L's ( Lazarus, Lyon, Leonard, and his daughter, Lorca)... His hebrew name, Elieser, means "God is my help." And, as a Cohen, he is one of the Kohanim, a priesthood of succession established, according to the bible, through Aaron, Moses' brother. But a Ha-kohen or priest for Israel was a spokesperson for God as well as a lay administrator ( Kohen means 'one who officiates') who, according to tradition, is the first to read the Torah and offer the priestly blessings. A poem in Parasites of Heaven entitled, "I am a Priest of God", written in 1966 both accepts and criticizes this role. Cohen born in the year 5695 (1934) in the month of Tishri, according to the Hebrew calandar, constantly examines the powerful and sustained Jewish tradition that saw him as a youth regularly participate in yearly rituals, such as Passover, or weekly ceremonies such as Shabbat. The peace and security of the family quickly ended with the death of Cohen's father in January of 1944. "The Favorite Game" fictionalizes the event, although not the sense of loss that Cohen, then nine, continued to experience. In the novel, Lawrence Breavman thinks of his father as one of the difficult princes of his "private religion, double natured and arbitrary" ..... His anger about the death...finds poignant expression in Breaveman's cutting of one of his father's bow-ties, sewing a message inside, and then burying it in the garden, an event that actually occurred the day after Cohen's father's funeral....The loss of Cohen's father was an early and unwanted introduction to reality... " And what is it like to have no father? Lisa askes Breaveman, " It made you more grown up. You carved the chicken, you sat where he sat." In later writings, Cohen writes " Death is a tragedy and whether it strikes at an eight year old youngster or a senile old man, a scar is always left on one of the survivors- a scar that does not heal quickly." Yet even later he writes, " A scar is what happens when the word is made flesh." Cohen writes in (his novel) Beautiful Losers, what the British imposed on the French, the Jesuit missionaries imposed on the Iroquois, and English Canada imposes on contemporary Quebec in the sixties of the novel.... ( He writes a character named F.) F. is guru to the unnamed, folklorist-anthropologist-cum-narrator...His Nietzschean character finds confirmation in Twilight of the Idols, Nietzsche's late work, which Cohen quotes through several statements by F. To the question "What is a saint?", F. answers: A saint is someone who has achieved a remote human possibility. It is impossible to say what that possibility is. I think it has something to do with the energy of love. Contact with the energy results in the exercise of a kind of balance in the chaos of existence. A saint does not dissolve the chaos; if he did the world would have changed long....It is a kind of balance that is his glory. "The Genius" best embodies the elements of Judiasm, love, and the horror of history within his poetry. After presenting a litany of possible Jews that the poet might become - ghetto or apostate or banker or Broadway or doctor jew, he concludes with: For you I will be a Dachau jew and lie down in lime with twisted limbs and bloated pain no mind can undersand. - ----------- In an all day poetry party in January of 1966, Cohen brought out his guitar and raved about the new poet of America, Bob Dylan. No one had heard of him, so Scott ran out and purchased two of his albums and began to play them. Only Cohen could tolerated the sound. Cohen nonetheless announced to the group that there was an audience out there waiting for him and that he would become the Canadian Bob Dylan, a claim none of them thought serious enough to refute. That same year Cohen found himself living in NYC on the sixth floor of the Chelsea Hotel on 23rd St. During his stay no less than Joan Baez, Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, and Janis Joplin visited the well known bohemian address. Previous residents included William S. Burroughs, Virgil Thomson, Thomas Wolfe, And Arthur Miller who called it "a ceasless party". Dylan Thomas drank himself to death in room 206, Sid Vicious would murder his girlfriend Nancy Spurgeon there. Through the Montreal Born agent Mary Martin, an assistant to Albert Grossman - - (Dylan's manager), Cohen met Judy Collins and sang several of his compositions in her living room. She liked none of them but encouraged him ot call if he had any other songs. He later sang "Suzanne" over the phone from Montreal, and she quickly recorded it for her 1966 release In My Life. Her next album Wildflowers contains "Sisters of Mercy", "Priests", and "Hey, that's no way to say goodbye", plus her own hit, "Both Sides Now". ss. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 18:36:38 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: hawaiian tunings randy! thanks for such a wealth of information! it's so interesting to read that the major 7th chord has a femenine sound. it's the chord that started my life as a musician when i was barely an infant. i must have been trying to assimilate my "anima". [i'm reading a lot of mircea eliade and carl jung these days. does it show?] wallyk >wahine (wah-HE-nee) is hawaiian for woman, and is used to >describe the "feminine" sound of the major 7th chord. >RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:59:53 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Thoughts on the VH1 ranking In a message dated 8/2/1999 8:47:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << Hard to see Joni Mitchell at 5. Perhaps if Joni had pushed the envelope morally (such as Madonnas televised pajama parties) and been the crass self promoter Madonna has been she would have won. Who cares, we all know shes the best artist on the whole list by a mile. Marcel Deste. >> >> true true and when is their real *just ice* anyway?? I am keeping this. It sounds like me talking! Thanks! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 15:10:42 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Leonard Cohen & The Priest SJC Siresorrow@aol.com wrote: > i thought i'd just transcribe a few lines from a book about leonard cohen > which i picked up last week. > +++++++ > Cohen met Judy Collins and sang several of his > compositions in her living room. She liked none of them but encouraged him > ot call if he had any other songs. He later sang "Suzanne" over the phone > from Montreal, and she quickly recorded it for her 1966 release In My Life. > Her next album Wildflowers contains "Sisters of Mercy", "Priests", and "Hey, > that's no way to say goodbye", plus her own hit, "Both Sides Now". Her OWN hit? Excuse me! - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 16:35:05 -0600 From: "Alison Einerson" Subject: David, joni & tunings I remember seeing David Crosby give a lecture about eight or so years ago at Utah State University. If I remember correctly, the "lecture" series focused on drug addiction and was part of a community service requirement for a drug violation or something...Anyhow, after the lecture he came into the music department and played for the advanced guitar students. It was really amazing to be in such an intimate enviroment with him, which got even better when he started talking about tunings and the like. I specifically remember him saying that if anyone was truly interested in learning about tunings, they should study Joni and her work. I think he called her the "master" of tunings or something to that effect. Anyhow, that incident certainly would lead me to believe that he was definately influenced by her, and I would imagine she by him as well. =From: "Kakki" Crosby as one of his main influences, has always insisted to me that Joni was influenced and learned the alternate tunings from the Croz. I'm still not willing to totally accept that but I have to acknowledge that Crosby was doing it at least concurrently with Joni. In fact, one of the reasons for his fall out with the Byrds was that he wanted to go off into more uncharted melodic waters of, at that time "experimental" music, including "weird tunings" while the rest of the group were leaning more toward the country folk sound that they completely embraced later. That does not take anything away from Joni for me - if is is true that Crosby originally inspired her in this regard, her creativity ran with it and she can still be credited among her alternate tuning peers for taking it to the highest dimension. Kakki= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:32:52 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Thoughts on the VH1 ranking What happened to Bonnie at No. 4? An oversight, or deliberate omission!? Just curious. Helen Marcel wrote: > > The top 10 were: > > > 1. ARETHA FRANKLIN > 2. TINA TURNER > 3. JANIS JOPLIN > 5. JONI MITCHELL > 6. BILLIE HOLIDAY > 7. CHRISSIE HYNDE > 8. MADONNA > 9. ANNIE LENNOX > 10. CAROLE KING ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:07:38 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Leonard Cohen & The Priest SJC just copied it as it read!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:26:49 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: RE: VH1 & Tunings WallyK, I took your advice and tracked the thread in the archives. Let's start with Catgirl's original question: >Can you think of any other female >musician that *INVENTED* her own >tunings for the guitar? Note the words "female" and "her own". This was followed by raven's reply: >...tunings? Besides Joni? >Probably dozens... although I suspect >most alternate tunings 'invented' by a >musician have also been 'invented' by >others. As for crediting a musician with >having 'invented' a tuning, many >musicians credit (to name two fairly >well-known artists) both Ani DiFranco and >Jonatha Brooke for tunings which appear >to have been 'invented' by them, and >some of the tunings used by Patty Larkin >are often described as 'hers'. Note how she (or he) stayed on gender. Next Terry added: >and Bruce Cockburn. Now Terry HAS changed the subject here, but appropriately, based on the specific lines (that she reprinted) that she was responding to. Catgirl then responded to raven with: >Well I do believe it was Ms. Mitchell who >was the front runner here. Maybe these >women were inspired the her. Note how we are back on gender here. This brings us to your response: >dear catgirl, >however much we love joni, we can't >deceive ourselves and believe that she >invented the wheel. eric anderson [sp?], d. >crosby and bruce cockburn, just to name a >few, had used alternate tunings before >joni did. as a matter of fact, some open >tunings have been traditionallly used in >american folk music for almost a century. You did not cite what exactly you were responding to but you made it clear that you were responding to Catgirl. I can only surmise that you were responding to her original question: >Can you think of any other female >musician that *INVENTED* her own >tunings for the guitar? I'm guessing that you misread her question and meaning, and took exception to the word "invented". First note that she capitalized INVENTED with asterisks. I assume she was using that word loosely, but whether she was using it loosely or literally, the question still remains (with my caps now added): >Can you think of any other FEMALE >musician that *INVENTED* HER OWN >tunings for the guitar? You may have "changed the subject line" and YOU certainly changed the subject, but you also put words in Catgirl's mouth that she neither said nor meant, making her look wrong when the two of you are talking about two completely different things. I don't disagree with what you've said about the origins of open tunings but I reassert that it has nothing to do with the subject which was female. That is why I responded: >And they each had sex changes when? >I believe the subject was WOMEN in >rock... Her question remains. Here's one for the scholars... Has Joni ever said who influenced her to *INVENT* her own open tunings? I'm wondering about Elizabeth Cotton? Did she work with open tunings? was she even mentioned on the VH1 list? Shame if she was not. Perhaps, Wally, you should have reviewed the thread, and you might have noticed your honest, inadvertent mistake, rather than having it pointed out for the second time. gdave NP: Ratdog w/ Phil Lesh 8/2/97 Shoreline Amphitheatre, Mountain View, CA - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 18:11:21 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Leonard Cohen & The Priest SJC > i thought i'd just transcribe a few lines from a book about leonard cohen > which i picked up last week. snip And, as a Cohen, he is one > of the Kohanim, a priesthood of succession established, according to the > bible, through Aaron, Moses' brother. But a Ha-kohen or priest for Israel > was a spokesperson for God as well as a lay administrator ( Kohen means 'one > who officiates') who, according to tradition, is the first to read the Torah > and offer the priestly blessings. ..... After presenting a litany of possible Jews that > the poet might become - ghetto or apostate or banker or Broadway or doctor > jew, he concludes with: > > For you > I will be a Dachau jew > and lie down in lime > with twisted limbs > and bloated pain > no mind can undersand. > ----------- Thank you for posting this! I'd say this makes a pretty good case for Leonard Cohen being the model for the song 'The Priest'. The song even has a bit of a Cohen feel to it. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 18:48:14 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: RE: VH1 & Tunings At 08:26 PM 8/2/99, gr8fuldave wrote: >Has Joni ever said who influenced her to *INVENT* her own open tunings? I don't remember the exact quote or the origin of it but she said in an interview that she was hearing all these "weird" chords in her head and pretty much had to invent her own tunings in order to capture these sounds on her guitar. She did not name anyone, that I recall, who directly influenced her creative decision to explore alternate tunings. I'd guess that as she has often stated the influence was more from Edith Piaf, Rachmaninoff, and others, who gave her a musical appetite for sounds, and chords, which couldn't be played (at least not easily) in standard tuning so she just started experimenting with them and ended up with over 50 of her own tuning schemes. Pretty incredible to think about creating all those tunings AND being able to put them to such wonderfully crafted songs. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:07:03 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: VH1 & Tunings gdave, so what you mean is that i should've offered examples of pre-joni mitchell female guitar players that invented their own tunings because the discussion was based on gender. interesting point. wallyk - -----Original Message----- De: gr8fuldave Para: Wally Kairuz CC: jmdl Fecha: Lunes 2 de Agosto de 1999 18:34 Asunto: RE: VH1 & Tunings WallyK, I took your advice and tracked the thread in the archives. Let's start with Catgirl's original question: >Can you think of any other female >musician that *INVENTED* her own >tunings for the guitar? Note the words "female" and "her own". This was followed by raven's reply: >...tunings? Besides Joni? >Probably dozens... although I suspect >most alternate tunings 'invented' by a >musician have also been 'invented' by >others. As for crediting a musician with >having 'invented' a tuning, many >musicians credit (to name two fairly >well-known artists) both Ani DiFranco and >Jonatha Brooke for tunings which appear >to have been 'invented' by them, and >some of the tunings used by Patty Larkin >are often described as 'hers'. Note how she (or he) stayed on gender. Next Terry added: >and Bruce Cockburn. Now Terry HAS changed the subject here, but appropriately, based on the specific lines (that she reprinted) that she was responding to. Catgirl then responded to raven with: >Well I do believe it was Ms. Mitchell who >was the front runner here. Maybe these >women were inspired the her. Note how we are back on gender here. This brings us to your response: >dear catgirl, >however much we love joni, we can't >deceive ourselves and believe that she >invented the wheel. eric anderson [sp?], d. >crosby and bruce cockburn, just to name a >few, had used alternate tunings before >joni did. as a matter of fact, some open >tunings have been traditionallly used in >american folk music for almost a century. You did not cite what exactly you were responding to but you made it clear that you were responding to Catgirl. I can only surmise that you were responding to her original question: >Can you think of any other female >musician that *INVENTED* her own >tunings for the guitar? I'm guessing that you misread her question and meaning, and took exception to the word "invented". First note that she capitalized INVENTED with asterisks. I assume she was using that word loosely, but whether she was using it loosely or literally, the question still remains (with my caps now added): >Can you think of any other FEMALE >musician that *INVENTED* HER OWN >tunings for the guitar? You may have "changed the subject line" and YOU certainly changed the subject, but you also put words in Catgirl's mouth that she neither said nor meant, making her look wrong when the two of you are talking about two completely different things. I don't disagree with what you've said about the origins of open tunings but I reassert that it has nothing to do with the subject which was female. That is why I responded: >And they each had sex changes when? >I believe the subject was WOMEN in >rock... Her question remains. Here's one for the scholars... Has Joni ever said who influenced her to *INVENT* her own open tunings? I'm wondering about Elizabeth Cotton? Did she work with open tunings? was she even mentioned on the VH1 list? Shame if she was not. Perhaps, Wally, you should have reviewed the thread, and you might have noticed your honest, inadvertent mistake, rather than having it pointed out for the second time. gdave NP: Ratdog w/ Phil Lesh 8/2/97 Shoreline Amphitheatre, Mountain View, CA - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:13:34 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: VH1 & Tunings In a message dated 8/2/1999 10:10:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << gdave, so what you mean is that i should've offered examples of pre-joni mitchell female guitar players that invented their own tunings because the discussion was based on gender. interesting point. wallyk >> no, no no..now come on. I was just trying to point out that Joni is an amazing talent and should have been number one. Her invention of her own style and her interesting tuning alone make her number one in my humble biased opinion. Catgirl ps and yes I was talking just about women like Dave said. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:06:44 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Leonard Cohen & The Priest SJC In a message dated 8/2/99 6:17:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pward@lightspeed.net writes: << i thought i'd just transcribe a few lines from a book about Leonard cohen > which I picked up last week. > +++++++ > Cohen met Judy Collins and sang several of his > compositions in her living room. She liked none of them but encouraged him > ot call if he had any other songs. He later sang "Suzanne" over the phone > from Montreal, and she quickly recorded it for her 1966 release In My Life. > Her next album Wildflowers contains "Sisters of Mercy", "Priests", and "Hey, > that's no way to say goodbye", plus her own hit, "Both Sides Now". Her OWN hit? Excuse me! >> What's wrong with this? It's Joni's song, but Judy made it a hit. HER hit song, not her song was a hit. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:18:59 -0700 (PDT) From: PJT Subject: Sometimes it just hits me I was just riding in my car, listening to Miles of Ailes and Joni just swept down and pulled me away from the day, from Monday, from live (sometimes difficult). Sometimes I feel like she is just part of me, that I know her as I know myself. Some of you might think this is bogus or BS, but she really does this to me. She has been a part of me so long, that sometimes she just hits me. I am so thankful that my boyfriend, when I was 15, decided to buy some Joni (Blue) and didnt like it. I inherited it and a lifetime of music. Thanks Joni! Pam _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #140 ****************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?