From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #99 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, June 30 1999 Volume 01 : Number 099 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni Visualisation [catman ] Re: Joni Visualisation [Krys & Geoff ] Joni lyrics [Krys & Geoff ] Re: Joan Baez, Pop Culture, etc. ["P. Henry" ] Fwd: failure notice ["P. Henry" ] Lyric Quiz Results - a bit long, it's late and I've rambled, sorry ["Hele] Re: Gina's reply [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Joni Visualisation [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Gina's reply [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Gina's reply [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: An Ego As Big As Malibu Beach? [Don Rowe ] Re: Gina's reply [Phyliss Ward ] Re: Joni Visualisation [catman ] Re: Joni Visualisation [Martin Giles ] Re: Gina's reply [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Paul's reply [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Paul's reply [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Phyliss's reply [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Paul's reply [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: An Ego As Big As Malibu Beach? ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni Visualisation [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com] Welcome to the List [michael paz ] Re: Joni Visualisation [pyramus ] Re: Joni Visualisation [catman ] Re: Joni Visualisation [pyramus ] Joni at Joni's Jazz!!! [Phyliss Ward ] Re: Joni at Joni's Jazz!!! ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni Visualisation [Randy Remote ] Re: Phyliss's reply ["Mark or Travis" ] This n' That from Party Central [Ashara@aol.com] Re: Joni Visualisation [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Joni Visualisation - Raised on Robbery ["Helen M. Adcock" ] joni's jazz (jc) ["patrick leader" ] Re: An Ego As Big As Malibu Beach? [Susan Chaloner Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation > > > Raised on Robbery - definitely - I can see the guy sitting bored in a bar, > then this obnoxious woman throws herself at him!) Funny how we all see things differently. I have always found this song to be very sad, depicting a desperate woman, down on he luck and her self esteem. I see a woman who has tried to look sexy and well dressed but ends up looking cheap and too thin and shaky with doe eyes. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:04:04 +0100 From: Krys & Geoff Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation In message , Helen M. Adcock writes >Bob wrote: > >> Hi Kevin, thanks for de-lurking. It IS funny how some of her >> songs create such vivid visuals. It would be cool to take a >> song and talk about how we would "shoot" it for a video, I >> would be interested to see the variety of images that a >> particular song conjures up, or maybe see that we've all been >> imagining the same thing! For me, "Raised on Robbery", >> "Coyote", "Ethiopia", "Barangrill","Morning Morgantown" are >> among the strongest "image-conjurers". I think all Joni's songs are filled with vivid imagery, the characters and colours come alive for me when she sings. For me, listening to a Joni album is like watching a wonderful film in my head where I see the characters living and breathing - it's a fully rounded experience. Therefore I would be hard put to choose which ones I thought would make good videos - how about all of them! Love and peace, Krys XXX ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:55:39 +0100 From: Krys & Geoff Subject: Joni lyrics In message , Helen M. Adcock writes >>Terry writes: >><>he picked up the scent from my p** or c***. She's blunt but she has >>class. > > >Cathy wrote: > >>So does my husband! He just said, "has it occurred to anybody she >>might be talking about her perfume?" That's interesting. Joni's doesn't tell us in plain black and white what she means, it's left to the listener to interpret how s/he sees fit - - it could so easily be either meaning. I suppose the sexual one of thought of immediately by a lot of folk (including myself, I confess) because the guy in question is watching the waitresses legs, as opposed to her hair-do or what she's carrying on the tray, so the sexual theme is planted. I love it when lyrics can be read a number of ways - and no way is necessarily "right" or "wrong". It adds to the mystery of the song, and enables us each to have our own personal closeness to a lyric. Love and peace, Krys XXX ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 04:23:52 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Joan Baez, Pop Culture, etc. *starting to feel a bit as if I'm in the twilight zone* ummm... I know I'm like really WAY behind abut did I miss something? how can *this* possibly be considered njc?!?!? >>Great post and excellent food for thought, Evian. But my stomach literally twinged when I read this: > Jewel being bought over Joni... That one I still can't understand - although I think it's more about her youth, image and accessibility than about her music. Young women are probably more likely to identify with her as a peer than say, Joni, Joan, Carly, etc. As for young men, I'm sure it's not really so much about her music ;-) Guess I'll weigh in with my simplistic thoughts regarding Joan vs. Joni. I've always thought Joan had a gorgeous voice - I've never noticed any irritating warble and vibrato - and still think she is one of the best singers of our time. I must admit to not quite liking her stridency although I completely respect her activism. As for Joni, I also have always thought she has an amazingly gorgeous voice. I don't understand people who cannot bear to listen to her sing. I truly don't find anything annoying or flawed in Joni's voice but maybe I was born with a different kind of hearing. I agree with those who think Joni is just as much activist as Joan. Joni just does it more one on one with the listener, while Joan tends to set the stage to rally a group of listeners. Kakki>> Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 04:28:06 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Fwd: failure notice oops! wrong address! (who's 'jomi'??? LoL!) this was the first of my 'why njc' inquiries... - -- - --------- Forwarded Message --------- DATE: 29 Jun 1999 10:28:00 -000 From: MAILER-DAEMON To: badwolff@angelfire.com Hi. This is the mailer-daemon. I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. : 204.167.97.154 does not like recipient. Remote host said: 550 ... User unknown Giving up. pls pardon this intrusion... this was marked njc and it definately isn't so I'm resending it without the tag for the onlyjoni crowd... Subject: Joan Baez, Pop Culture, etc. Well, first off, I think that comparing Captain and Tenielle to Joan Baez is a little... hasty. As well, I think that pop culture is very important to recognize in that it tells us about not only what fed the masses, but also reveals some very interesting things about ourselves and our development as a society. For example, Joan Baez was and is fiercely dedicated to social causes, and her inclusion in the pop culture lexicon of the 60's shows us how some artists bucked the mainstream in order for social change -- an example of this is Baez's association with MLK. Baez's voice, while some find it grating, could easily have been constantly in the top ten, with songs singing odes to boyfriends and parties, and whatever else was on the radio at the time, but she chose to sing largely political/philosphical songs, and found an audience to boot. On the same note, Baez didn't write most of her own music then, which is another popular culture signifier -- the woman "protest" singer who could, for whatever reasons, find her voice only through songs written by men. Thus, Baez holds a place in pop culture that is very interesting to examine: breaking down conventional barriers by daring to be a "protest" singer (I hate that term, but it's late and I can't think of a better word), and yet still leaving the scripting of experience and social thought to men (however, her delivery of other people's songs, imho, seems to allow her to appropriate their music and transcend it into her own distinct experience). All the while building up a huge following that fits her right into the pop culture history books.... Then along comes Joni, who also marks a distinctive thread in popular culutre, especially in the early 70's. BLUE/FTR/C&S era Joni is also significant to pop culture because it marks a time when women can sing/write/perform their own songs, and sell albums, during the upsurge of singer/songwriters. Joni's placement in the 100 best albums of all time or whatever in RS is a testament to her influence in pop culture. What was happening in pop culture that "allowed" this? Conversely, Joni's "blackballing" (her words) with the release of Mingus, reveals how the masses weren't ready, or weren't given the option, of hearing "the Drycleaner from Des Moines" on the radio. At the same time, and I know I will be a big minority here, so don't bother flooding my email with "you're nuts" comments, I think it is every bit as relevant to look at the popularity of cultural "fluff", be it the Carpenters, New Kids on the Block, Duran Duran, Pac Man, Harlequin Romances, Jacquelin Susann, Star Wars movies, Andy Warhol, etc. Why were these acts/people/things so popular? How did they get popular and who had the power to allow/foster their popularity? What do they represent, and what do they say to us about the society that bought into them, and what does their ultimate downfall mean to culture in general? Does this downfall represent our fickle nature, or does it represent a quest for something more substantial? Moreover, how do these people/things play into other aspects of pop culture? The culture that found it hillarious to have John Ritter pretend to be a gay man to live with two women in an apartment on Three's Company is the one that, 15 years later, freaked out when Ellen comes out as... gasp... an actual Lesbian on her own sitcom. Or The Jefferson's use of the word nigger in prime time in the 70's evolves into a word that becomes known as "the N word" on CNN in the 90's, in news stories. These examples say to me that popular culture over a span of 15 years is still founded on the same constructs -- they are simply taking on different forms. And, of course, there IS a marked change in some respects of pop culture... Toni Morrison finally added to the literary canon, for one (which, of course, leaves the question... who decided this? What about Zora Neale Hurston?), Motown's popularity being subverted with the advent of hip-hop (what events in popular culture fostered this radical change), classic country music giants being overturned with pop friendly Garth's and Shania's (What's all goin' on down yonder in Nashville, besides the obvious money grab)... Jewel being bought over Joni... You get some good, some bad, some strange... and it's always fascinating, confusing, and unique to delve into pop culture. Your long-winded and sunburned friend, Evian Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:48:02 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Lyric Quiz Results - a bit long, it's late and I've rambled, sorry Finally I've compiled the answers from everyone who "entered" my little Joni Lyric Quiz, although I'd prefer to think of this as a challenge to the individual to try and test themselves, rather than pitting themselves against fellow jimdlers - all in the new-found spirit of political correctness that we appear to be entering. You won't find any references to body parts on this post! (Other than to warn everyone, that doing very high star-jumps in a swimming pool with your legs as wide apart as you're able to force them, can have unfortunate - and uncomfortable - results. I'll leave it to your imaginations, but suffice it to say, I'll be a little less enthusiastic next time I go to Aqua-aerobics!) Anyway, here are the answers to the Lyric Quiz: 1. …a priest with a pornographic watch…- The Boho Dance, HOSL 2. …a ruby in a black man’s ear…- That Song About the Midway, Clouds 3. …all this talk about holiness now…- Woman of Heart and Mind, FTR 4. …and his eyes said me and his eyes said you…- The Priest, LOTC 5. …and my child’s a stranger…- Chinese Café (Unchained Melody), WTRF 6. …butterflies and lilac sprays…- For The Roses, FTR 7. …Charlie’s bass and Lester’s saxophone…- Goodbye Pork Pie Hat, Mingus 8. …cold cuts and highway hand-me-downs…- Refuge Of The Roads, Hejira 9. …crows and ravens whistling, lines of weeping…- Songs To Aging Children Come, Clouds 10. …freedom scribbled in the subway…- Shadows And Light, HOSL 11. …from the neon lights, come down from the tourist sights…- The Dawntreader, STAS 12. …God goes up the chimney…- Don’t Interrupt The Sorrow, HOSL 13. …he sings Merry Christmas for you, just like Nat King Cole…- Barangrill, FTR 14. …hexagram of the heavens…- Amelia, Hejira 15. …I am flesh and blood and vision…- Come In From The Cold, NRH 16. …I cleared myself, I sacrificed my blues…- Court And Spark, C&S 17. …I comfort him sometimes…- Conversation, LOTC 18. …I sure can be phony when I get scared…- Man To Man, WTRF 19. …I watch for judgement anxiously…- Car On A Hill, C&S 20. …I’m sitting on my groceries…- Raised On Robbery, C&S 21. …in the barrooms - poor drunk bastard falls…- Lakota, CMIARS 22. …let fate and duty shape us…- Stay In Touch, TTT 23. …love bandits con and plunder…- Solid Love, WTRF 24. …one little victory, that’s all she needs…- Sunny Sunday, TI 25. …or maybe it’s you, Judas in the end…- Jericho, DJRD 26. …places to come from and places to go…- Night In The City, STAS 27. …red taillights on his hide…- Night Ride Home, NRH 28. …she follows you home but you miss living alone…- Blonde In The Bleachers, FTR 29. …shine your light on me Miss Liberty…- Song For Sharon, Hejira 30. …sign all the papers in the family name…- Little Green, Blue 31. …sly lover boys with big bad bedroom eyes…- Lucky Girl, DED 32. …the gossips had a gourmet feast…- Harlem in Havana, TTT 33. …the silence is so full of sounds…- Man From Mars, TTT 34. …the sun through yellow curtains…- Chelsea Morning, Clouds 35. …the swoosh of jungle blades and the crackle of northern ice…- Dancin’ Clown, CMIARS 36. …they offer relief for the purchase price…- The Reoccurring Dream, CMIARS 37. …they’ll plant me in the dirt…- The Magdalene Laundries, TI 38. …through the sharing of the profits…- Cactus Tree, STAS 39. …time has been untruthful…- Two Grey Rooms, NRH 40. …to see who in the world I might be…- Rainy Night House, LOTC 41. …to this innermost secret temple…- God Must Be A Boogie Man, Mingus 42. …too much pride and too much shame…- Hissing Of Summer Lawns, HOSL 43. …turn this crazy bird around…- This Flight Tonight, Blue 44. …walk on eggshells and analyse…- Good Friends, DED 45. …we move in measures, thru loves’ changing faces…- Sweet Sucker Dance, Mingus 46. …while madmen sit up building bombs…- The Three Great Stimulants, DED 47. …with their tassled teams they come to McGee’s General Store…- Paprika Plains, DJRD 48. …you get - frostbite and sunstroke…- Off Night Backstreet, DJRD 49. …you praise barbarity…- Borderline, TI 50. …you’re romanticising some pain…- The Last Time I Saw Richard, Blue I haven't mentioned how many the people who entered got right/wrong, so as not to label anyone as "Lyrically-Disabled". But I will point out that there was a very good reason for my volunteering to "write" the quiz, as opposed to "entering" the quiz! And everyone was wondering, "Why on earth would she volunteer for that job?!" Aha, there is a method in my madness, after all! Helen - waterlogged but politically correct! BTW, thought I'd better clarify, this is not a dig at those who found the recent "body-part" posts objectionable - I respect your opinions - I'm just trying to lighten things up a little! Things have been far too serious for my liking, and it's time everyone snapped out of it (or I'll throw Tequila in your face)! I know, I know, I've mixed up the lyrics from two songs, but at least they're from the same album! Told you I wasn't mad (despite all indications to the contrary). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:55:08 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: Gina's reply Gina posted: >Eric's post was an error in judgment but >gr8ful Dave, I found your so-called humor >disparaging, offensive and yes, sexist. If >you had showcased the most belittling and >racist terms you could think of and called >it "humor", there would be an outcry on >the list and you would be labeled a racist >and a bigot but because it is directed at >women, you perhaps thought everyone >would let it go. I will not let it go. >I was hurt, offended and discouraged by >your thoughtlessness. So much so, that I >can't even go on a rant about it. Gina, I'm sorry you were offended by my post but I'm afraid you are in the minority of one so far, against a majority of e-mails I received. Those that wrote used the exact words in the quotes below. A. It was "biting satire". B. It was "very funny" & "clever" & "LOL" C. IT CAME WITH A WARNING that YOU should have heeded. I'm sorry that you did not. One more point. If someone uses racial terminology in a satirical piece, that person is not necessarily a racist, despite whatever labels are wrongly attributed by those who do not recognize or appreciate satire. If your theory were correct, many of the top comedians of our day would be labelled as "racists & bigots". gdave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:01:40 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation Helen visualized: <<> Raised on Robbery - definitely - I can see the guy sitting bored in a bar, > then this obnoxious woman throws herself at him!)>> Then Catman noted: <> It's an interesting song because there's a definite duality; it IS a sad song and also funny in a way. Imagine that Joni sang it in a "River" kind of way, it would be terribly depressing, but instead she puts the lyrics in one of her most rocking rhythm/melodic settings. It's a very interesting juxtaposition. Given my slant on C&S as a cycle of songs, I see the video as focusing on a younger girl who's in the bar observing the whole scene, a "narrator" sort of. (After all, the song isn't written from the perspective of the guy at the bar nor from the woman, but rather from the storyteller who is relating the story.) So anyway, in my video, a late 30's Joni is watching this older burned out woman (and Colin I think you hit the description on the head except I don't think she has a self-esteem problem.) The woman, btw, is also played by Joni, only she's got bad make-up, bad hair, etc. The younger woman observes the whole scene, and finally when the guy has had enough of the floozy woman, he leaves with her calling to him the whole way...after he's gone, the woman turns to see who her next "victim" will be, the eyes of the two women meet, and the younger one gets up and out as quickly as she can, not only to avoid contact with floozetta but also because she is repulsed by seeing some of herself in the woman. Meanwhile, all along, a jazz band in the bar has been playing the song... Cut! Print! That's a wrap folks... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:13:38 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Gina's reply In a message dated 6/29/99 7:49:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kb420@webtv.net writes: > One more point. If someone uses racial terminology in a satirical piece, > that person is not necessarily a racist, despite whatever labels are > wrongly attributed by those who do not recognize or appreciate satire. > If your theory were correct, many of the top comedians of our day would > be labelled as "racists & bigots". > Well, I'm a big fan of Lenny Bruce and when you can approach his level of genius, maybe then I'll laugh. Gina "Wit has truth in it. Wisecracking is just calisthenics with words." (I wish I could remember who said that) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:39:00 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Gina's reply In a message dated 6/29/99 7:57:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kb420@webtv.net writes: << Gina, I'm sorry you were offended by my post but I'm afraid you are in the minority of one so far, against a majority of e-mails I received. Those that wrote used the exact words in the quotes below. >> Make that a minority of two, then. It was neither clever nor funny; it was condescending and unnecessary, warning or not. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:13:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: An Ego As Big As Malibu Beach? > > "With an ego as big as Malibu Beach To use the New Yorker's own phrase, "BLOCK THAT METAPHOR". David Crosby put it much better when he likened Joni's ego to that of Mussolini, and was in a much better position to draw the comparison than the editorial staff ... Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:37:40 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Gina's reply three. IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > Make that a minority of two, then. It was neither clever nor funny; it was > condescending and unnecessary, warning or not. > > Paul I - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 17:37:26 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation > (and Colin I > think you hit the description on the head except I don't think she has a > self-esteem problem.) I cannot imagine someone like this having good self-esteem! if this woman had a good sense of herlself and respect for herself she wouldn't be this desperate!Of course I could be wrong. perhaps women with a healthy self esteem behave like this all the time. What would I know?! bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:03:06 +0100 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation Kevin said... Hi Kevin. I think that Joni's ability to cunjure images with her lyrics is the thing that first attracted me to her music. For instance..(from Hejira) "White flags of winter chimneys, Wave truce against the moon, In the mirrors of a modern bank >From the window of my hotel room". In my head I 'see' the picture zooming out from the smoke to the bank and finally back behind Joni's shoulder as she stands in her hotel window looking out. I love the way she paints the scene, moves the perspective and finally puts herself in the context. And again in Refuge Of The Roads... "In a highway service station Over the month of June Was a photograph of the Earth taken coming back from the Moon. And you couldn't see a city On that marbled bowling ball Or a forest, or a highway, or me here least of all. You couldn't see this cold water rest room Or this baggage overload Westbound and rolling Taking refuge in the roads." (apologies to Joni if I've misquoted, I'm doing it from memory). This verse has always stunned me in the way she can move you about, from a small building to the whole world and then zooming right back in again to Joni as she sees herself in context. Wow! The first album of hers I ever heard was SAL, and I'd just got a job as a teaboy at a recording studio. The first week I was covering night sessions, and when I'd finished work I'd be singing to myself... "You'll be brushing off a brood mare's tail While the sun is ascending And I'll just be getting home with my reel-to-reel" Magic! She really does paint with words and music. Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:39:14 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: Gina's reply >Well, I'm a big fan of Lenny Bruce So am I. I'm surprised you don't find some of his material offensive. >and when you can approach his level of >genius, maybe then I'll laugh. Fair enough. gdave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:42:09 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: Paul's reply >Make that a minority of two, then. It was >neither clever nor funny; it was >condescending and unnecessary, warning >or not. You forgot "IMO" at the beginning of your second sentence. gdave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:44:05 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Paul's reply In a message dated 6/29/99 2:42:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kb420@webtv.net writes: << >Make that a minority of two, then. It was >neither clever nor funny; it was >condescending and unnecessary, warning >or not. You forgot "IMO" at the beginning of your second sentence. gdave >> Speaking of condescending... And no, I did NOT forget IMO. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:53:21 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: Phyliss's reply >three No two. Paul doesn't count, he hates everything. Just ribbing ya, Paul, you count. That's 6 to 3. 4 more and you'll have a majority of responses, not necessarily opinions, though. Sidenote: the 6 positve e-mails were all from men (ASFAIK) and private, while the three negative comments were two women and 1 man. What that means, if anything, I'll leave to the sociologists. gdave (the newest member of the He-Man Women Hater's Club...just don't tell my wife :) gdave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:56:30 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: Paul's reply >And no, I did NOT forget IMO. Oh, then it must have been yet another one of your attempts to speak for the entire list. Just when were you elected list spokesman, I must have missed that? gdave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:06:28 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: An Ego As Big As Malibu Beach? Don wrote: > > > "With an ego as big as Malibu Beach > > To use the New Yorker's own phrase, "BLOCK THAT > METAPHOR". David Crosby put it much better when he > likened Joni's ego to that of Mussolini, and was in a > much better position to draw the comparison than the > editorial staff ... Yes, a much better metaphor! I went "huh?" at the "big as Malibu beach" description. The beaches of Malibu are mostly pretty small from all the storm wave action every year. As far as Joni and Crosby - I've always enjoyed their brand of ego immensely - they are both great raconteurs and always have something to say. I've always thought their "egos" are just a byproduct of the great enthusiasm they both have for their art. There are much bigger, overblown and overbearing egos to point out than theirs - which are at least interesting! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 17:19:52 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation Colin commented: <> Well, I don't think she has a "healthy self-esteem", I think she doesn't recognize herself for being the desperate burn-out that she is, she doesn't acknowledge the depths she's fallen to. I'll bet though she's pretty happy with herself most of the time based on what I know and observe about women who are like that. Do you think she's a hard-core alcoholic or just loose? Or both? Maybe she feels good about herself in spite of what others may think. All we can do is guess anyway! But it's fun to discuss... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:40:14 +0000 From: michael paz Subject: Welcome to the List Hi Emily- Welcome to the list. Hopefully the little penis thread won't run you outta here. Maybe you can post a report on the Joni tribuet show in Central Park for the rest of us that are sooooo far away. Wish we could all be there for this one. Hey did you know that Sarah Maclachlan's song "Adia" started out as Emily? Just a tidbit I got from her when I spoke to her last year about the new record. Cheers, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:38:05 +0100 From: pyramus Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation Jason Maloney wrote: > << In those days, songs from CMIARS, NRH amd TI really - quite literally stimulated my brain into visualising the situations so beautifully and evocatively described both through her lyrics and also her artful appliance of texture and rhythm. >> Well put Jason. << Where in the UK are you, BTW? There aren't many of us Brits around on here :-) Jason. >> East Grinstead in West Sussex. I think I've seen a few Brits here on the list. I believe Azeem and Catman are in the U.K. and a few others. Perhaps we should have a roll call of the Brits & Europeans. The demography would be interesting. Perhaps a U.K./Europe Joni mini-fest is something to think about in the future. We seem to be way behind the Americans and Aussies on this. Incidentally I'm off to Paris tomorrow for a few days so I'm busy compiling a Joni Tape to listen to with a Travel/French theme: So far: URGE FOR GOING FREE MAN IN PARIS (That's me :-) ) YVETTE IN ENGLISH IN FRANCE THEY KISS ON MAIN STREET REFUGE OF THE ROADS HEJIRA NIGHT RIDE HOME - - any others anyone ? Keep well everyone. Kevin. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:10:53 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation > > > Well, I don't think she has a "healthy self-esteem", I think > she doesn't recognize herself > for being the desperate burn-out that she is, she doesn't > acknowledge the depths she's > fallen to. I'll bet though she's pretty happy with herself most > of the time based on what I > know and observe about women who are like that. I am having trouble knowing exactly how to reply to this. Did you really mean that? From my experience of people(m&f)such as this song describes,' happy with themselves' is not a description they would really feel, tho they might say it. i think, tho of course don't know, that Joni recognized this in the song. Although it is a raw picture she paints, it still comes across as compassionate. > Do you think > she's a hard-core alcoholic or > just loose? Or both? My picture of her is that she was an alcoholic. As for loose, I don't think i would use that term as to me it is sexist-i.e. mainly used to describe a woman doing what a man does with impunity. i.e. he would be called a stud and get a pat on the back.(this is not just a str8 thing-gay men refer to certain types of gay men as sluts yet those that go with them are studs. go figure).Anyhow, back to the point. If she is an alchoholic then she is not likely to be happy with herself. If she is also a sex addict, likewise. More likely she just needs a man to make her feel valued and loveable and has got a shag confused with real value and love. Again, hardly likely to make her feel good about herself. So many people equate love/affection with sex. One reason why there is so much conflict between men and women and some gay people. Speaking is generalizations, so many men think that a cuddle and touching inevitably will lead to sex. So if they are off sex they don't show affection. So the other partner, usually the woman, gets the hump(or not!!) because they don't equate affection and touch with sex necessarily. Hence thy might feel used'oh he's only interested in me when he wants sex' that type of thing. A woman such as described in this song, tho it could equally apply to a man, is searching for fulfillment, for self love, by offering herslef to anyone she can in the vain hope that it will finally fill that gaping hole she carries around with her(no puns please), not realising that she cannot get what she needs this way and that what she needs only she can give herself. It is a story repeated day in and day out all over the world. people demeaning themselves in order to feel loved which results in feeling less love, more shame, which makes the yearning that much stronger, so they demean theselves some more and so it goes on until maybe they are lucky and the penny drops or they actually find someone who does really value them and maybe then they begin to see things differently. It isn't just obvious people like this woman in the song, but so many of us do this. Be it by offering help, being a good parent, being a good md, a good lawyer, a good teacher, a good cook, by being a good therapist, by being beautioful, well dressed, funny, by being a good actor, singer,or displaying vast knowledge, being very clever, by thinking we know it all, by being better than.....whatever it may be many of us do it in order to get that whole feeling which doesn't come by what we do but by who we are. In other words who we are is what is really important and where our sense of worth and feeling good about ourselves comes from. What we DO is the icing on the cake, not the cake. Some would argue that certain people do not deserve to feel good. This I think is again because they get confused between what a person does and what a person is. i guess this would mean that one would have to believe, as I do, that every human being is intrinsically worthy and that change is always possible and that no matter how bad we feel or how bad we think someone else is, there is always that goodness within that can come out when the person can see themselves as worthy or is encouraged to by others. Of course it is much easier, short term, to think that a woman like this is just a waste of space and worthless. It saves us from seeing ourselves.(This is the reason the poor, the indigent, the 'mad', the ugly, the damaged are scurried away from-the fear we feel when presented with what we might be or what our selfishness contributes to.And the one thing all of us are busy doing is either running from fear or, more so, denying we have any fear.) well, Bob, I bet that was more than you wanted to know....;-) Sorry, i just couldn't help it-sometimes my fingers just have to go till they stop... > Maybe she feels good about herself in spite of what others may > think. > All we can do is guess anyway! But it's fun to discuss... > > Bob - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:20:24 +0100 From: pyramus Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation Martin Giles wrote: > > << Hi Kevin. I think that Joni's ability to cunjure images with her lyrics is the thing that first attracted me to her music. For instance..(from Hejira)* > > "White flags of winter chimneys, > Wave truce against the moon, > In the mirrors of a modern bank > >From the window of my hotel room". > In my head I 'see' the picture zooming out from the smoke to the bank and finally back behind Joni's shoulder as she stands in her hotel window looking out. I love the way she paints the scene, moves the perspective and finally puts herself in the context. > > Martin.>> Hi Martin. *It is my favourite album for just this reason. You could almost make a 90 minute film of the stories from Hejira. There are plenty of interesting characters: Sharon, Amelia,Furry, Coyote. In fact ...thinking about this.. can anyone think of another artist who creates so many characters in their work ? Just off the top of my head, not including the above: Carey Richard Otis & Marlena Marcie Nathan La Freneer Willy Harry Edith Scarlett Cherokee Louise Ray's Dad Then there are the many others not named in songs like Strange Boy, Hissing..., Refuge.. etc. She introduces us to scores of characters in her lyrics, some that we can identify with and some that we can't. For someone that has a reputation for writing personal songs she can certainly show us a few other lives as well. Perhaps these people are us! As much as we like to think we are looking at Joni through her music maybe she is actually showing us ourselves. Perhaps the mirror has been turned on us. Does anybody identify with any of Joni's characters? In view of some of the recent dubious posts any Willy's need not respond :-) Keep well Kevin. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:51:52 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Joni at Joni's Jazz!!! Hi All Here is some good, possibly great, news for those of you attending Joni's Jazz in Central Park on Thursday. I have it on very good authority that Joni is currently in New York specifically for the occasion. I don't know what part she will be playing (pun intended) in the event but it could be exciting!!!! - -- Phyliss, wishing she was going to be there pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:41:42 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni at Joni's Jazz!!! Phyliss wrote: > Here is some good, possibly great, news for those of you attending > Joni's Jazz in Central Park on Thursday. I have it on very good > authority that Joni is currently in New York specifically for the > occasion. This is so exciting! I want to hear long, voluminous reports from the lucky group attending this! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 17:10:17 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation catman wrote: > > Do you think > > she's a hard-core alcoholic or > > just loose? Or both? > > My picture of her is that she was an alcoholic. As for loose, I don't > think i would use that term Raised On Robbery? I've always assumed she was a hooker. She starts out trying to engage him in conversation, to deflect his interest from the hockey game on TV to her, asks HIM to buy her a bottle of gin. Come up to my kitchen I'll show you my best recipes becomes I'm up after midnight cookin' tryin' to make my rent sounds like a working girl to me... RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:40:19 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Phyliss's reply > >three > > No two. Paul doesn't count, he hates everything. Just ribbing ya, Paul, > you count. That's 6 to 3. 4 more and you'll have a majority of > responses, not necessarily opinions, though. > > Sidenote: the 6 positve e-mails were all from men (ASFAIK) and private, > while the three negative comments were two women and 1 man. What that > means, if anything, I'll leave to the sociologists. No offense to you or any of the participants, Dave, but I think what it *means* is that the majority of us are sick to death of this thread and *really* wish you all would put your whips away and leave that poor dead horse alone. Just my opinion Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:48:06 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: This n' That from Party Central Hi everyone! I sent this to both lists, because the info here may be important to some of you. I have noticed that many people have sent for information for the New England Labor Day Jonifest that is happening here in September. The more the merrier, and I hope as many people as possible can make it here! It should be a GREAT time! I am going to be away for a month (July 24th-August 24th), without access to the internet for the most part, and I would like to do as much pre-planning as possible during the next few weeks. If you have any interest, no matter how slight, in coming to the Boston area for this party, please let me know right away if you haven't already contacted me directly. I just don't want to be surprised a week before the party that we will have 50 extra people planning on attending! Also, if you have any questions about the party, please ask them in the next few weeks as well. Hope to see a lot of you here! Reminders: Sign up for the mailing list for those interested in the party. http://www.jmdl.com/lists/ For more information about this year's Fest, send a blank message to: info-laborday@jmdl.com To check out the fun we had at LAST YEAR'S Fest, go to: http://www.jmdl.com/gallery/party9809.htm Keep those donations coming in for Wally! Fundraiser Update to be announced soon! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:08:18 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation I'm with you on that. She's a hooker, at least part-time. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:15:51 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation - Raised on Robbery David wrote: >I'm with you on that. She's a hooker, at least part-time. Exactly what I've always thought - but a hooker in the "twilight" of her career, who thinks she's still in her prime! Helen NP - Janis - Turtle Blues ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:44:57 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Visualisation In a message dated 6/29/1999 6:44:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pyramus@pyramus.free-online.co.uk writes: << Does anybody identify with any of Joni's characters? In view of some of the recent dubious posts any Willy's need not respond :-) >> I think you hit the nail on the head with this idea. I know I could identify with the person who is talking to Amelia..way back when....when my relationship sucked!!! I had a friend who is a Lakota native american....that song is so him. Whenever I hear that song he pops into my head! When I heard Man from Mars for the first time the first thing I thought was * She did it again....what a wonderful song*. Finding out it was about her cat made the song so much more dear to my heart ( I lost a cat to a fast moving car...one big boo-hoo :( So when I hear that song I think about my kitty. The list goes on and on! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:02:04 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: French Joni Kevin- As you know, In France they say, everyday, Love Puts On A new Face (my current favorite Joni song). also Sex Kills (for Robespierre who slaughter half of France Two Grey Rooms (cause I always thought that one was in France or maybe Greece) California (sittin in a park in paris france All I Want (good traveling song esp. if you are lonely) Have a wonderful trip! Wow one of Joni's favorite towns. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:07:46 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: joni's jazz (jc) i won't be able to coordinate with jmdlers before the show. i'd like to suggest that anyone who wants to, should meet after the concert, at: tanti baci 163 w 10th (i think just a little east of 7th avenue) 647.9657 where joni had her 54th birthday party and where a few fine jmdl gatherings have happened. a nice cheap italian restaurant. i am so excited about this concert. let's share this, afterward. patrick np - joni - stormy weather ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:31:34 -0700 From: Susan Chaloner Subject: Re: An Ego As Big As Malibu Beach? Don Rowe wrote: > > > > "With an ego as big as Malibu Beach > > To use the New Yorker's own phrase, "BLOCK THAT > METAPHOR". David Crosby put it much better when he > likened Joni's ego to that of Mussolini, and was in a > much better position to draw the comparison than the > editorial staff ... That's true but which Joni was David talking about? ;~D Circa 1974? 1999? Susan L.A. Honey McBabe-"...They talk like they know you..."-that Joni ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:31:45 -0700 From: Susan Chaloner Subject: Re: An Ego As Big As Malibu Beach? Kakki wrote: > As far as Joni and Crosby - I've always enjoyed their brand of ego > immensely - they are both great raconteurs and always have something to say. Yes, I love it when Joni talks...Of everything she does I like her talking the best...I don't know about Crosby...I've never heard him talk. "...the times you impress me most are the times when you don't try when you don't even try..." :~) > I've always thought their "egos" are just a byproduct of the great > enthusiasm they both have for their art. Let's ask them: Who's the mother of your egos? Where can I can an inflator? :~D > There are much bigger, overblown > and overbearing egos to point out than theirs Ooooooo! I'd love to know who you're thinking of...I know it can't be me 'cause I'm real interestin' ;~) AND...I got a busted flat in Baton Rouge from which I never did recover Susan L.A. Honey McBabe-"...Feelin' good was good enough for me..."-Kriss Kristofferson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:45:57 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: JC: A Joni moment I could live without! While channel-surfing, I happened upon a 1992 movie called "Married To It" (sorry if this has made the rounds already), with Beau Bridges, Stockard Channing and others. The intro-credits music is an incredibly syrupy muzak-version of "The Circle Game." Yugh! ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #99 ***************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! 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