From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #87 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Monday, June 21 1999 Volume 01 : Number 087 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Blue [Chad Burkhart ] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Big Yellow Taxi tuning [Howard Wright ] Joni's guitar style [Howard Wright ] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [Deb Messling ] Re: New in town [AzeemAK@aol.com] A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... [Don Rowe ] Re: A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [catman ] RE: the wrong joan always gets the credit! ["Steve Haas" ] Re: A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... [Sue ] Today in Joni History - June 17 [Today in Joni History ] Today in Joni History - June 16 [Today in Joni History ] Today in Joni History - June 14 [Today in Joni History ] Today in Joni History - June 15 [Today in Joni History ] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Sucking the life? [simon@icu.com] Singers v. Songwriters [dsk ] Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay [Bounced Message ] Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay ["James A. Murray" ] Re: Excitable find [pam tompkins ] joni and joan ["Takats, Angela" ] Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! [CaTGirl627@aol.com] the Right Joan gets the credit (due her). [simon@icu.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:10:56 PDT From: Chad Burkhart Subject: Re: Blue Blue has always been very near and dear to me. It too was my first Joni album. In fact it was the first Joni album that I ever had the opportunity to hear. In residence in my first year of University, some girls were playing the album and they were all singing along. I had heard of Joni before but never really listened to hear before. I fell in love as so many of us do. Of course I could never say which album is my favorite but Blue is up there at the top!!! I had a moment once where I was listening to River and I burst into tears. I have never had any kind of experience like that prior to Joni and it has happened to me with two other songs - "Real Good For Free", or "For Free" depending on the album, and "Rainy Night House." That's discounting just about every song that she sang at the concert in Ottawa last year!!! In a totally unrelated topic, can anyone e-mail me with info on tape trees. I keep hearing about them but don't know much about them. Anyone that has the Ottawa concert on tape, if you can hear a bunch of people screaming at like every break stuff like "We love you Joni," etc, that would be me and my college buddies. We really do love her!!! She even thanked us one time. The crowd was really there to see Dillan but we left when he played (we tried to stay but we don't really like him). We were there for our Joni!!! Yours always, Chadly From Mountains ICQ = 41775889 Go where you will go to Know that I will know you Someday I may know you very well ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 04:06:23 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! In a message dated 6/21/99 1:17:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << < I would disagree with this, too. I don't see Joni's influence on many > people. Perhaps you can show me people who she has influenced musically. I > am just not familiar with them. >> >Let's see Prince, Indigo Girls, every single Joni wanna be singer songwriter >(ie Jewel, Jonatha Brooke, The Neilds,etc) , Michael Hedges (by her use of >open tunings), Rickie Lee Jones, Shawn Colvin, David Crosby (he does a bunch >of her songs), Jimmy Page, Heart, Annie Lenox, and I am sure I am forgetting >at least one person! Is anyone familiar with any of these no bodies?? ;>) >Catgirl....thinking about all the interviews where Joni is asked how she >feels about all the people who she influenced.... Well said! Even Madonna has said Court and Spark was her favourite album growing up! Another notable is Sheryl Crow. Helen >> And Sarah McLachlan... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:23:25 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Big Yellow Taxi tuning >Anybody out there know the tuning for Big Yellow Taxi as played on the >PWWM video? I think it's different from those I've seen before...Thanks >- Bern I think the basic tuning is the same, but it may well be shifted down a little. i.e instead of open E it may have been open D on the video. Open D would be (low to high) : D A D F# A D In joni notation, this is: D 75435 You should be able to pick out the bottom note easily from the video - tune your bottom string to this as a reference, then tune the other strings to this. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:41:08 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Joni's guitar style Michael wrote: >After listening to TT8 and TTT I am wondering what has happened to >joni's guitar style.It has changed quite radically and IMO not for the >better.She seems to have become quite a lazy guitar player, maybe >relying on the warm full sound of the VG-8 to cover the >articulate playing she used to do. Her playing style certainly has changed - it has evolved steadily over the years, but I don't hear any radical difference in technique on TTT compared to TI. I love her more recent guitar style - bolder, more rhythmic. It may not be to everyone's taste though. Perhaps the tone colours of the VG8 put people off, more than her actual playing style? I don't think it's at all accurate to say that she's become "lazy" on the guitar because of the VG8 sound. I think her playing on this album is much the same as on TI and NRH. Do you find her playing on these albums lazy/simplified too? The VG8 has had a massive impact on her tone, and I think it's opened up a mass of possibilitied for her playing. The layered guitars on Harlem in Havana for example are just wonderful! This just wouldn't have happened without the VG8. Joni loves to talk about her "orchestral" style of playing on the guitar. The VG8 has truly given her the chance to explore this by layering guitar and horn parts, all played of course on the VG8. It's true that her early technique was much more articulate, but she hasn't been playing like this for many years! Songs like "The Priest" or "Marcie" have very intricate picking patterns, but by the time Joni got to Blue and For the Roses she was already using broader picking strokes, and developing her rhythmic style and concentrating less on detailed picking. This evolution has continued I think right up to TTT. Less detailed picking, and bolder rhythms. >A song that comes to mind is Facelift.The guitar does nothing for the >song in fact it detracts from it but I know what Joni could play to >fit the melody and make the song sit beautifully, but doesn't. > >Michael I guess this is just personal taste. I love her playing on this track! It may sound as if she's casually strumming the chords for this one, but listen close to the rhythms - there's a lot of interesting playing there. I think the guitar is a wonderful support for the voice on this track. It may sound easy, but it's surprisingly difficult to play on the guitar with the same rhythmic flow as Joni gets. I'd go so far as to say that the essence of Joni's guitar playing, in the last 5 years or so, is her use of rhythm. And there are some great examples of this on TTT! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 06:58:01 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! Well, I think there's plenty of talent to be found in singing well, and in interpreting songs so that they sound fresh. I can't quote chapter and verse, but I remember Joni bemoaning the fact that every singer feels they *must* be a songwriter these days. That notion makes for a lot of mediocre songs. At 11:04 PM 6/20/99 EDT, you wrote: > It always bugged me that there are some who just sing >others music. Sure they might sound good but where is the real talent in >that? Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~there are only three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 07:33:18 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: RE: the wrong joan always gets the credit! Steve said: <> Boy, Steve, at least you get credit for cojones for putting this statement out there! :~) Others have already listed many artists who Joni has influenced directly, I doubt that we can really get a handle on who all has been Joni influenced because her influences can be so varied; piano, guitar, confessional songwriting, open tunings, her choices of musical stylings (african influences, jazz influences,) probably half of the folks who are Joni-inflenced don't even know it! :~) <> See, I think you contradict yourself here - imo, her combination of poetry and music IS a new musical form (especially as she displays it in Hejira). <> That's not a bad summation at all! Thanks for sharing your honest opinions - it enables all of us to share... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:06:41 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! - -----Original Message----- From: Steve Haas > Same thing for something like "Woodstock." If Crosby >Stills and Nash hadn't sung it, would it have been a popular tune? It would.. I've heard Joni's version hundreds of times and only heard the CSN version once, that was the time I saw the film. If anyone could claim to have popularised Woodstock it's Ian Matthews who gave Joni her only number one hit with the tune. Anyway it's those prisoners that I pity. Imagine being in jail and having to listen to Joan Baez caterwauling as well. Someone should organise a protest. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:17:59 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Tape Trees Chad requested: << In a totally unrelated topic, can anyone e-mail me with info on tape trees. I keep hearing about them but don't know much about them. >> Since there seems to be a good number of new people on the list, I think it makes sense to reiterate this information to the whole list. Tape trees are audios and videos of Joni that are distributed to any interested member of this list for usually just an exchange of blank tapes. All the information about tape trees and what is found on them can be found at: JMDL Tape Trading Information Even though all the tape trees are officially closed, you can usually find a kind list member that will tape one or more of them for you with a general polite request to the list. I am still the unofficial "official" video tree dubber (or dubba....no, let's not get into that again!) Anyone who is interested in the tape tree videos (either US version or the European PAL version), can e-mail me privately, and I will be happy to make tapes for you. Hope that helps! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:52:35 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit (Warning: passionate response!) Ange wrote from down under, << But what's so good about making your living as a singer if you bludge (suck the life out of) off other people's work? I think it's almost embarrassing to be famous as a singer, but have none of your own work to show for it. Anyone and everyone can sing a song, but to have written it and have that special meaning that you can take to your audience...that is precious. >> Ange, I love ya, girl, but this statement made me so sad. I am a singer and have sung to my heart's content every day since before I could even talk. I very rarely write my own songs, and when I do, it is rare that I have the right opportunity to sing them. Most of my singing is in a band that I am in that plays music for Sacred Circle dancing, which is a bit like folk dancing, but acknowledges the sacred in both the dances as well as the music. I also sing anywhere else that my music seems to fit. In the band, I sing in over a dozen different languages. For each and every song I sing, I research the music, find someone that speaks the language, and trying to honor the language and the country by singing the piece as authentically as possible. A lot of time and effort goes into making that happen. I also teach "Authentic" voice classes, which are classes that help people find the truth in their voices, as opposed to learning how to sing well. My philosophy in my classes is from an old Zimbabwe saying, "If you can walk, you can dance, If you can talk, you can sing." I believe EVERYONE'S song has "special meaning," *and* is "precious." Even though I do not consider my voice to be the very best, and it is certainly far from being a trained voice anymore, I have over and over again seen people moved to tears when I sing because of what is "behind" the song: the passion, the heart, the belief that through every song I sing, I am somehow contributing to bringing peace to this earth. Not only am I not embarrassed to "not have my own work" to sing, but I am honored to sing some of the most beautiful songs I have ever heard, many of which have brought me to tears as well. Phew! Well, there's my very passionate 2 cents worth. Change, anyone? Hugs, Ashara P.S. Ange, am I still welcome Down Under? :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:33:03 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's guitar style In a message dated 6/21/99 5:44:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, haw@ph.ed.ac.uk writes: > >A song that comes to mind is Facelift.The guitar does nothing for the > >song in fact it detracts from it but I know what Joni could play to > >fit the melody and make the song sit beautifully, but doesn't. > > > >Michael > > I guess this is just personal taste. I love her playing on this track! It > may sound as if she's casually strumming the chords for this one, but > listen close to the rhythms - there's a lot of interesting playing there. > I think the guitar is a wonderful support for the voice on this track. > It may sound easy, but it's surprisingly difficult to play on the guitar > with the same rhythmic flow as Joni gets. > > I'd go so far as to say that the essence of Joni's guitar playing, in the > last 5 years or so, is her use of rhythm. And there are some great > examples of this on TTT! > Thank you for this very understandable post. It makes sense to me, the musical dunce! I intuitively *feel* what you articulated so well. You've helped to enhance my appreciation of TTT even more! I was somewhat put off by the new sound at first. As usual, I hung in there with it because the lyrics are so lovely and Joni's voice so rich and meaningful. I appreciate this new sound more and more as I allow what Joni has said about her VG8 in interviews, to sink in through repeated listenings. Joni's explanations of her guitar as a palette (and other analogies to painting) have also really helped me to "get it". TTT is currently my most played Joni CD. Take care, Gina NP: REM - Monster Take care, Gina REM - Monster ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:23:08 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Big Yellow Taxi tuning It's CGCEGC, C75435. At 10:23 AM +0100 6/21/99, Howard Wright wrote: > >Anybody out there know the tuning for Big Yellow Taxi as played on the > >PWWM video? I think it's different from those I've seen before...Thanks > >- Bern > >I think the basic tuning is the same, but it may well be shifted down a >little. i.e instead of open E it may have been open D on the video. Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua http://jmdl.com/guitar/mark "This conformity factory is now closed!" -Homer Simpson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:29:42 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: New in town In a message dated 17/06/99 08:44:13, us@moonviews.demon.co.uk writes: << I enjoyed reading the first digest very much and look forward to learning more about the world of Joni through this valuable medium. >> Welcome, Kris, from another Brit! Whereabouts are you? I'm in London, Crouch end to be precise. The JMDL is indeed great, full of good people from just about all the continents. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 07:55:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... This just in from a review of The Go-Betweens concert in Toronto Friday night ... Robert Forster introduced "Spring Rain" saying: "This is dedicated to Joni Mitchell, who Grant (McLennan) and I saw walking down the street in Toronto today ... she looked fantastic!" Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:01:38 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... In a message dated 6/21/99 10:59:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: << "This is dedicated to Joni Mitchell, who Grant (McLennan) and I saw walking down the street in Toronto today ... she looked fantastic!" >> Suze in Michigan- you'd better move your trip up! Wonder if Kilauren had her baby...? Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:00:46 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! In a message dated 6/21/99 8:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philipf@tinet.ie writes: << > Same thing for something like "Woodstock." If Crosby >Stills and Nash hadn't sung it, would it have been a popular tune? It would. I've heard Joni's version hundreds of times and only heard the CSN version once, that was the time I saw the film. If anyone could claim to have popularised Woodstock it's Ian Matthews who gave Joni her only number one hit with the tune. >> Where was this? It certainly is NOT true in the U.S., where the CSN version is the one that got the most airplay. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:11:31 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! I have never heard another version other than joni's. And yes, there is life beyond the USA. IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/21/99 8:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philipf@tinet.ie > writes: > > << > > Same thing for something like "Woodstock." If Crosby > >Stills and Nash hadn't sung it, would it have been a popular tune? > > It would. I've heard Joni's version hundreds of times and > only heard the CSN version once, that was the time I saw the film. > If anyone could claim to have popularised Woodstock it's Ian Matthews > who gave Joni her only number one hit with the tune. >> > > Where was this? It certainly is NOT true in the U.S., where the CSN version > is the one that got the most airplay. > > Paul I - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:15:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! colin, in response to Paul, on versions of "Wookstock" ... > I have never heard another version other than > joni's. And yes, there is life > beyond the USA. > Most certainly, but I would still wager that 9 out of 10 people would not only think that "Woodstock" is a CSN&Y song, they'd probably also say the title is "Back to the Garden." Such is the power of overplay ... Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:35:35 -0400 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: VLJC: Bonnie Raitt Concert Review At 08:19 PM 6/20/99 -0400, you wrote: She looked and sounded great, she played a lot of slide guitar, she even >played a little harmonica. I hope the success of the show brings about some >other acts who are tired of only playing big arenas and sheds. Bonnie was >really enjoying herself, and said she considered herself blessed for being >able to have the career she's had. I certainly felt the same after seeing >her show. Bob! Sounds like another superb performance by Bonnie! Thanks for the concert report. Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:39:54 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: echoes LJC (This may come under the heading "you know you are a Joni freak when . . .") I have not written here for a long, long time but something struck me today . . . when I was re-reading a proposal I had written for a TV series for the Travel Channel. The show will take place in various cities, using contemporary and archival footage. One of the cities in the proposal is New York. When writing, I needed to describe Ellis Island with Manhattan skyscrapers in the background. What echoed in my head was "they work the girders of the Manhattan skyline". Well, no one was working on the buildings in my description but paraphrasing her line (and playing with the cadence a bit) the line became "the monoliths of the Manhattan skyline". Later, in the same paragraph, I was talking about skyscrapers being built in the 50s and then needed to make a very quick transition to the 60s, keeping with the building imagery. Describing/writing the 50s line was easy enough but for the next line, I needed to convey completion of buildings, things not there anymore, movement and an idelible image. The line that popped into my head: "A helicopter lands on the Pan Am roof." Unless the reader is a die-hard JM fan, they will never know my inspiration. Howard M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:24:17 -0500 From: "Steve Haas" Subject: RE: the wrong joan always gets the credit! :43:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > steveha@email.msn.com writes: > > << I would disagree with this, too. I don't see Joni's influence on many > people. Perhaps you can show me people who she has influenced > musically. I > am just not familiar with them. >> > Let's see Prince, Indigo Girls, every single Joni wanna be singer > songwriter > (ie Jewel, Jonatha Brooke, The Neilds,etc) , Michael Hedges (by > her use of > open tunings), Rickie Lee Jones, Shawn Colvin, David Crosby (he > does a bunch > of her songs), Jimmy Page, Heart, Annie Lenox, and I am sure I > am forgetting > at least one person! Is anyone familiar with any of these no > bodies?? ;>) > Catgirl....thinking about all the interviews where Joni is asked how she > feels about all the people who she influenced.... Well, I would make a distinction between those who have simply played her pieces, and those who were definitely influenced by her style. I can't make a judgement here. I don't know most of those people....though I do not like Prince at all, and can't see any JM influences there....and David Crosby definitely had his own style, which probably had some input from Joni, considering how often they must have played together, but it is hard to see. Joni is one of the few performers who have stayed with me for most of my life. I've met her once or twice or three times (things were always hazy during the 60's), and really had a crush on her, through her music. On the other hand, I've seen her when I didn't particularly like her, such as one concert in Columbia, Maryland, where she came across very...well, sort of Vally Girl. It was distressing. However, there are things she has done which I don't like. I'm not a lover of jazz, and the more jazzy she gets, the less I like her work. I didn't like the Mingus album at all, and there were a lot of intervening albums there I didn't like. I LOVED Hejira, and Night Ride Home. The album she did after that, Turbulent Indigo, I have a hard time listening to. SO, I can't say I like her without question, but should say I like her critically...which is ok, I think. I feet he same way about almost everyone. My favorite singer is Stan Rogers (if you don't know him, find his album "From Fresh Water." If you like Joni, I think you'll be blown away)...but I don't like everything Stan did, either (the second track on that album, by the way, is one of those I don't like. Skip over it). I guess it is just me. Picky...(sigh).. The thing is, an artist HAS to grow and experiment...and very often the growth and experiments are not 'good' in the sense that they please everyone. If one has truly liked what she has done, we can't hold her to doing that all the time, but hope that, through the growth, something even better will come of it. That is the essence of creativity. If you remember when Dylan went 'electric,' his fans booed him ...and it was predicted often that he was going 'popular' and down hill. However, that, as well as his 'Christian' phases, were just part of his growth. Dylan knew this, and didn't let his 'fans' dictate his direction. When Phil Ochs tried that, his fans also booed him off the stage...and I always felt it was a strong reason why he eventually killed himself. He was stiphled (sp?), and couldn't grow. Sorry for the digression. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:29:33 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/21/99 8:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philipf@tinet.ie > writes: > > If anyone could claim to have popularised Woodstock it's Ian Matthews > who gave Joni her only number one hit with the tune. >> > > Where was this? It certainly is NOT true in the U.S., where the CSN version > is the one that got the most airplay. I don't know if Matthew's version reached #1 in the US, but it did get substantial airplay on the pre-FM airwaves. RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:33:29 -0400 From: "James A. Murray" Subject: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay There is a nifty Joni album on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=117747988 cheers jimbo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 99 10:00:34 -0700 From: Wally Breese Subject: Lahm, Shadows, Joni's Jazz and thanks Hi everyone, Today, I'm launching a page on JM.COM that contains my conversation with musician (and fellow jmdler) David Lahm. You can find out about how his fascination with JM's music began, plus much more. My thanks to him for the interview which you can read at this address: http://www.jonimitchell.com/DavidLahmIV98.html In reference to the new Japanese video version of "Shadows And Light," CDNOW lists the release on their order page as being 60 minutes, but as I told you previously, it does now run 74 minutes. I guess that they're unaware of the added footage. You can order it through the SHOP page: http://www.jonimitchell.com/ShopPage998.html I looking for two volunteers to be my official JM.COM photographer and reporter for the "Joni's Jazz" concert in NYC on July 1st. If you're interested in filling either of these roles, please contact me ASAP. To serve as the photographer, I'd like someone with a good camera who has had some experience shooting concerts. Thanks. Ashara sent me the donations that have been coming in, and I was very moved to look through the checks and see the names of those who've been my friends for a few years, others whom I know casually, and still more folks whom I don't know at all. Thanks from the bottom of my heart to all who've been so kind and generous! Later, Wally Breese The Joni Mitchell Homepage http://www.JoniMitchell.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:51:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Subject: Re: A Go-Betweens Joni Sighting ... >In a message dated 6/21/99 10:59:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: > ><< "This is dedicated to Joni Mitchell, who Grant > (McLennan) and I saw walking down the street in > Toronto today ... she looked fantastic!" Terry then wrote: >Suze in Michigan- you'd better move your trip up! Wonder if Kilauren had her >baby...? Yes! I was hoping for more JMDL luck to smile down on me while visiting Kilauren's hometown. I had forgotten all about the new grandbaby. Oh the thought of meeting up with Joni again! Thanks for the notice and the reminder Terry and Don! Sue Cameron (Suze) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:59:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - June 17 1972: Joni performs in Paris - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:58:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - June 16 1983: Joni performs in Irvine, California - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:51:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - June 14 1983: Joni performs in Universal City, California - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:52:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - June 15 1979: Joni performs at the "Playboy Jazz Festival" at the Hollywood Bowl in Hollywood, California. 1986: Joni sings three songs at the Amnesty International Concert at Giamts Stadium, East Rutherford, New Jersey. Joni said in an interview "Oh, I picked the perfect material - "The Three Great Stimulants," which addressed the cause. Well, nobody's there for the cause. That's heartbreaking. And in the back room, the managers are squabbling over position. They're kicking U2 out of their rightful spot to put the Police on top with their reunion, and it's ugly. And I did a song called "Number One." And there's a fine in it like "Win and lose/Win and lose/To the loser go the heartsick blues/To the victor goes the spoiling/Honey, did you win or lose?" And in the middle of it - if you see the videotape - my face kind of lights up I'm thinking, "Holy shit, if they stone me now it will be great. It will be so fitting." See pictures at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/860615.htm Read a review at: http://www.jonimitchell.com/Amnesty86.html Joni discusses the event a bit more at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/lunch.htm - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:49:49 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! In a message dated 6/21/99 12:32:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << If anyone could claim to have popularised Woodstock it's Ian Matthews > who gave Joni her only number one hit with the tune. >> > > Where was this? It certainly is NOT true in the U.S., where the CSN version > is the one that got the most airplay. I don't know if Matthew's version reached #1 in the US, but it did get substantial airplay on the pre-FM airwaves. RR >> Not only can I safely say that Ian Matthews' version did NOT reach #1 in the U.S., I'm not sure his version even REACHED the U.S. at all. Who is he? Never heard of him. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:56:17 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay In a message dated 6/21/99 12:35:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jamurray@colby.edu writes: << There is a nifty Joni album on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=117747988 cheers jimbo >> Many JMDL members have previously posted requests NOT to bid on Joni items on e-bay because all we would be doing is competing against each other and driving up the price. Now, no one is telling Jim or anyone else not to post such announcements (though I find Peter's weekly commercial postings to be especially annoying), but it seems to me the consensus is that if you see something interesting of Joni on e-bay or other auction sites, BUY it or ignore it. I, and certainly some other list members, are skeptical of the motives of those who would make such announcements and we find those who use this list for their own commercial or profit-making motives to be repugnant. In other words, let the EXTREMELY WEALTHY owners of e-bay, whom I saw on the Forbes list of the world's richest billionaires only this morning, do their own damn advertising -- somewhere else. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:09:02 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Sucking the life? Angela offers us an interesting comment ... >_____________________________________________________________________ >But what's so good about making your living as a singer if you bludge >(suck the life out of) off other people's work? I think it's almost >>embarrassing to be famous as a singer, but have none of your own work >to show for it. Anyone and everyone can sing a song, but to have >written it and have that special meaning that you can take to your >audience ... that is precious. >_____________________________________________________________________ Angela, i'm just wondering, where does this leave Billie Holiday, Patsy Cline, Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole or Paul Robeson? just to name a few. i don't recall reading about Mozart singing any of his operas. perhaps you didn't know (for instance) that Oscar Hammerstein & Jerome Kern wrote "Ol' Man River" *with* Robeson 'in mind' as the singer. or that after writing "The Christmas Song" Mel Torme immediately took it to Nat King Cole because he (the composer) knew that Nat was the right person to sing it. keep in mind that Mel Torme was a damn good singer in his own right. BTW: "The Christmas Song"? (ie: "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire") are you suggesting that the "Child" Ballads or other "Folk" songs shouldn't be sung because the 'original' authors are no longer with us or are unknown? personally, i say that singing/recording a *definitive* version of a song IS "your own work." it's often the singer of a song, not the writer who gives it "that special meaning." besides, some songwriters can't sing for sh*t! for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- * Remember, Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupitidy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:14:31 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Singers v. Songwriters Robert Holliston wrote: > > Also, the position that musicians who perform only the works of others are > negligible and untalented needs to be addressed. Would you expect actors to > write their own plays, or playwrights to act in theirs? ... > ...You go next door to a concert hall, but because > you've offended recreative musicians, you are only allowed to look at the > scores. This would be unilluminating. I had very similar thoughts, such as the difference between reading one of Shakespeare's plays (maybe interesting) and actually seeing it performed (compelling); or that one reason I know some of the words to Bob Dylan's songs is because I also heard Joan Baez sing them. Dylan singing them is a completely different experience. I think if the initial creation is rich enough, it NEEDS to have many different interpreters. On some TV show about Madonna, she was saying she knew she didn't have a very good voice and that's why she writes her own songs, so she'll have something she can sing. She went on to say if she'd had a terrific voice, her career would have been completely different. So singers who have a smooth, traditionally beautiful voice, such as Joan Baez and Judy Collins, IMO, are going to make use of their gift, and maybe later move into songwriting just because they want to, not because they're compensating for an area they're lacking in. Makes sense to me; it's just the way they're made. I love Joni's voice, but it's not a trained traditional sounding voice, so maybe she too wanted songs that perfectly suited her singing. And she needed a less physically stressful way to play the guitar. Also, I think with her being such a natural poet, the only way she'd get songs to express exactly what she felt would be to write them herself. That's just the way Joni's made (lucky for us). But whether that makes Joni more "valuable", I don't think so. There's value and worth in all ways of being, and all types of expression, and none of it exists completely separate from the others. DS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:32:42 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:01:43 -0700 From: Randy Remote Gotta chime in here, the quality on this bootleg is not that great, and bid is $30 so far.... "James A. Murray" wrote: > There is a nifty Joni album on ebay. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=117747988 > > cheers > jimbo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:31:55 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: the high tidemark of the sixties From: andrew power Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:19:17 PDT bob <<- - and the best sign-off to the seventies anyone has written>> <> well, every cultural decade starts and ends on it's 2nd year - - eg 1952-1962 (the beatlesend this and begin another) - - 1962-1972 (the demise - artistically or literally - of many 60's greats, the start of glam etc) and 'blue' - whether joni knew then or not - is an elegy to the sixties and a premonition of a culture where the individual looks to themselves, rather than society 'now there's so many sinkin' - you know you got to keep thinkin' to make it through these waves acid, booze and ass, needles guns and grass lots of laughs' [paraphrased] never mind the lyrics - the tone of the track and album - ended with 'richard', a retrospective of failure - the whole thing speaks of this ..... what's siquomb? drew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:47:13 -0400 From: "James A. Murray" Subject: Re: The Posall and Mosalm for sale on EBay >Many JMDL members have previously posted requests NOT to bid on Joni items on >e-bay because all we would be doing is competing against each other and >driving up the price. > Now, no one is telling Jim or anyone else not to post such announcements >(though I find Peter's weekly commercial postings to be especially annoying), >but it seems to me the consensus is that if you see something interesting of >Joni on e-bay or other auction sites, BUY it or ignore it. > I, and certainly some other list members, are skeptical of the motives of >those who would make such announcements and we find those who use this list >for their own commercial or profit-making motives to be repugnant. I'm sorry if some of you found my e-mail to be offensive. It is sometimes amazing how easy it can be to give offense. As to my motives, I was merely trying to make people aware of an interesting item that I myself was not interested in buying. I'll certainly will not do so again given the immediate and negative feedback. jimbo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:54:18 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: The Joni v. Joan Debate, by Joni Well, with a head full of Joni stuff (I just submitted Helen's Joni Quiz), I remembered an article I read in which Joni actually speaks of both Judy Collins and Joan Baez. The People Dec. 16, 1985 article says, "... Joni was never quite admitted to the band of reigning female folkies, about whom she is uncharacteristically unaffectionate. "I've known stories of greater generosity," says Mitchell of her relationship with Collins, in particular. In 1968 the two folkniks [People's word, not mine] met and agreed to go to the Newport Folk Festival together. "But my hero, who was supposed to pick me up at my house, never showed up," Joni says. "The following day I got a phone call from her in Newport. She said she felt I should be there. I guess she felt bad about stranding me." Joan Baez showed even less empathy. "She managed, whenever possible, to cut my set back one song when we played together," Joni says. If that clears things up any... Lindsay Moon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:20:35 -0700 (PDT) From: pam tompkins Subject: Re: Excitable find I just ordered it! I am so excited cant wait to see it. Thanks so much for sharing this with us Wally! I love this stuff!!!!!!!!!!! Pam - --- Wally Breese wrote: > Hi everyone, > I got a very pleasant shock a few days ago when > I watched my copy of > the new Japanese re-release of Joni's 1980 > live-in-concert film, Shadows > And Light. This new version runs not 60 but 74 > minutes! What's on those > 14 new minutes? Well, I'm excited to tell you that > two songs not on the > original release are included on this new version- > "Edith And The > Kingpin" and "Hejira." > "Edith" is totally live footage, with lots of > audience shots. This > track, in fact, was promised the last time that > Shadows And Light was > re-released (in 1989 on Warner Home Video), but > although the song was > listed on the box, it was not on the tape. But now > we have it. > "Hejira" is a real find because it appears to > be Joni's first > attempt at a music video. Seven minutes filmed on an > ice-skating rink and > featuring famous skater Toller Cranston; a young > woman twirling in a > bridal gown; and Joni herself skating around in her > "black crow" outfit. > Joni also lip-synchs a few verses from the song, > just like in a regular > MTV-style video. Mostly though, it's Toller > ice-skating and I must admit, > very beautifully. > The colors on this re-release are bold and > crisp, the sound is > great, plus you get two brand-new tracks. What more > could you want? This > re-release of Shadows And Light gets my highest > recommendation, and it > finally answers a question I've had since 1980- why > Joni credits Toller > Cranston for "skates" in the opening credits. This > is a very exciting > discovery, folks! > You can purchase this new and longer Shadows & > Light from the JM.COM > link to CDNOW.COM; They have it available in both > laser disc and VHS > formats. The laser disc version is limited in > quantity, so it can take up > to 8 weeks to get a copy, but it's well worth the > wait. Orders for the > VHS version should be much more quickly filled, as > it was produced in a > much larger quantity. Enjoy! > > Buy it from the "SHOP at JM.COM" page: > > http://www.jonimitchell.com/ShopPage998.html > > Later, > Wally Breese > The Joni Mitchell Homepage > http://www.JoniMitchell.com > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:33:07 +1000 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: joni and joan Hi listers, I seem to have offended some of you with my rather firey talk re:joni and joan and pop culture and those who sing other peoples songs...SORRY. I really didn't mean to take a swipe at people singing other peoples songs - we all do it and enjoy it and many people do it VERY well and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from doing so! I spose I just wanted to highlight the "ultimate" talent that someone like Joni has - that she can make her own music, write lyrics, sing her own message to all of us (a talent which SOME (not all) performers, who don't write their own material, just don't possess. (Am I digging myself another hole here?) Anyway....I don't have the musical knowledge that many of you do, and can't answer your questions about the talents of many artists who have covered songs and made them famous. Thanks for your thoughts on the joan-joni issue...we are a bunch of rather passionate people, aren't we! Thoughts Ange Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 18:33:24 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: the wrong joan always gets the credit! In a message dated 6/21/1999 12:27:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steveha@email.msn.com writes: << Well, I would make a distinction between those who have simply played her pieces, and those who were definitely influenced by her style. I can't make a judgement here. I don't know most of those people....though I do not like Prince at all, and can't see any JM influences there....and David Crosby definitely had his own style, which probably had some input from Joni, considering how often they must have played together, but it is hard to see. >> I don't like Prince either but he had said in an interview that she was a great influence on him. It is sad you never heard of the late great Michael Hedges. He played mostly open tunings and was an incredible guitarist and vocalist. Jimmy Page had said in an interview as well that Joni influenced him a great deal. He played with Robert Plant in a band called Led Zeppelin. The Indigo girls even say on their first album about Joni and I quote...*Thank you Joni Mitchell for the inspiration. I don't think Annie Lenox just wanted to do a Joni song. From the way she sings it is obvious that she was greatly influenced by Joni. (Annie Lenox played with a band called The Eurythmics). All those new little pop girls out there all were influenced by Joni but obviously can't match up. This is just my opinion and I may be wrong! Catgirl ps Joni and David wrote a song together called Yvette in English...it is one JM Tubulent Indigo and DC Thousand roads ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 18:53:52 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: the Right Joan gets the credit (due her). Angela Takats writes ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >Hi Listers, > >At the risk of offending Joan Baez fans and I'll try and keep this >tame ... Can i just say that it REALLY pisses me off when people talk >of her being THE female singer of the sixties/seventies. I have read >several books and seen docos on music from that time and why is it that >this woman seems to get so much "page space" when she was so average in >>comparison to Joni? I had a big fight with someone the other day about >female artists from that era ... they said Baez lead the way! > >So what's the deal ... was she just on the scene before Joni? is that >why she seems to get such credit? I don't even like her version of >Blowing in the Wind! What is so good about her? was she a great >songwriter? How does she manage to be put in the same catergory as Joni? > > Ange, Sydney >__________________________________________________________________________ Ange, i'm not sure who's making the statements and comparisons you object to, but it's clear that Joan Baez is rightfully due the praise that come her way. she was a Major performer and influence on the entire "Folk" movement of the early '60s, in may ways setting the scene and bringing authentic Traditional Folksongs and Child Ballads to the attention of a larger audience that actually thought the hokey-folky of the Kingston Trio was the real deal. her influence was pervasive. she was in fact the archetype of what the female folksinger was about. All others were in many ways, followers of Joan's in that she was the first, the most influential and the most popular. any new female singer coming up in those days would immediately be compared to Joan. this includes Judy Collins and Joni Mitchell. Joni herself has stated that the 'high-soprano' voice on her early albums was a stylistic-affectation and an attempt to sing in the then current style of Joan Baez and to a lesser extent Judy Collins. Joan's influence IS clearly established as an integral part of the 60's. musically! as well as culturally. however, by the 70's she'd clearly been eclipsed in popularity and influence by both Joni and Judy. however, it's would be inaccurate to cite Joni Mitchell as a major influence on the music scene of the 60's. she only released two albums in the 60's. the first of these (STAS) in March 1968 and CLOUDS in May 1969. kinda late for a time period beginning in 1960. although Joni started out as a Folk singer, she was performing 'original' material (only) very early in her career. in fact, i don't have and can't find any written record of the folksongs performed when she was first starting out. although the Folk Music Scene was on the wane as Joni was on the way up, she was definitely performing on what was still left of the old Folk Music Circuit. a circuit of clubs up and down the Atlantic coast of the US and spreading out into the midwest thru Ohio and Michigan, as well as Canada. Toronto and Montreal in particular. this circuit of clubs grew out of the early 60's popularity of Folk Music and performers like Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Tom Rush, Odetta, Cynthia Gooding and others. other 'older' performers who were being re-discovered and enjoying 2nd careers were also performing on this circuit, as well as in concert halls and college campuses. people like Mississippi John Hurt, the Rev. Gary Davis and Mance Lipscomb to name just a few. i guess it's only natural or at least it seems to be the case on some discussion lists to think that *your* performer is the greatest thing since sliced bread. BUT Joni Mitchell did not arise or arrive in a vacum. she had predecessors. others who came before and set the scene she found in place. praise of one performer does not carry with it any inherent criticism of another. at a time when it mattered, at a time when it counted, at a time when it could get you Killed! Joan Baez stood up and made a difference. i first heard her sing 'Live' at the "March On Washingtion" (8-28-63). she sang "We Shall Overcome." other performers that day included Bob Dylan, Odetta, Marian Anderson as well as Peter, Paul & Mary. BTW: did you know that "Blowin' In The Wind" was one of the most popular Anthems of the Civil-Rights movement? second only to "We Shall Overcome" and "Oh Freedom." the highlight of the day was obviously the "I Have A Dream" speech delivered by the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Joan Baez was an early champion and $$$ supporter of the Civil Rights movement of the early 60's. she was also a close friend of Dr. King and his family. whenever the *call* went out, whenever there was a march, a movement, or a campaign ... whenever there was a need for fund$, the first people Andrew Young and the Rev. Wyatt T. Walker called were Harry Belafonte and Joan Baez. these calls were always answered. Joan didn't just sing in Washington though. she sang in Black churches and schools throughout the south. she sang in the streets and from the beds of pick-up trucks with sharecroppers for her audience. whenever and wherever the 'cause' needed her, she was there. there are numerous photographs of Dr. King leading marches and demonstrations. if you look closely, you'll see Joan Baez in many of these. most of these activities were at the expense of her career. it didn't matter to Joan. it is this larger context that must be brought to light when discussing the career and influence of Joan Baez. Ange, i hope this doesn't sound angry. i'm not angry or offended and i don't intend to be critical either. a person should never be blamed for what they don't know. you may well be one of the many members of the JMDL born in 1970 or after and therefore have no personal knowledge or recollection of these events and realities. hopefully you'll find some of this information useful and interesting. another post follows. yours in friendship. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- * Remember, if you don't stand for something ... you'll go for anything. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #87 ***************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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