From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #81 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, June 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 081 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Sisotowbell Lane [Susan Chaloner ] Re: HOSL demo ["P. Henry" ] re: responding to posts about Joni Mitchell [waytoblu@mindspring.com] re: responding to posts about Joni Mitchell [Don Rowe ] one reson why... ["dayn-castello" ] Re: challenge to British JMDLers [AzeemAK@aol.com] re: responding to posts about Joni Mitchell [Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@f] Re: responding to posts about Joni Mitchell [JRMCo1@aol.com] California Dreams ["Peter Holmstedt" ] Joni Lyrics Game [Lindsay Moon ] RE: responding to posts about Joni Mitchell ["Wally Kairuz" Subject: Re: Sisotowbell Lane Don Rowe wrote: > Now isn't that just like Joni to send us off on a > snipe hunt. Kind of makes you wonder what other sorts > of red herrings we're fishing for here on the jmdl ... > ;-) Pickled ones perhaps? ;~) One things for sure: no one will catch any herring in Sask :~D Susan L.A. Honey McBabe-"...the nets were overflowing in the Gulf of Texaco They were overflowing in the Potholes of the roads..."-that Joni altered lovingly ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 06:32:20 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: HOSL demo Stephen wrote: >>Many thanks to Kakki and Scott for helping to make this tape available to us. I really appreciate the efforts that both of you are going to and want to express my gratitude. I'm very excited to hear this tape--thanks.>> (way behind) musta missed this... this tape is available??? somebody??? pretty please??? Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:34:45 -0400 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: re: responding to posts about Joni Mitchell I don't know who you are but I completely fail to see what your point is or what you are trying to prove. If you're not interested in what someone has to say then you don't need to respond. Also, you shouldn't make judgements about someone you know nothing about. In response to your diatribe, I wouldn't have been interested in joining you, I did stay to hear Bob Dylan perform, who happens to be one of the best songwriters of this era, who also put on an excellent show, though quite different from Joni's. Instead of wasting time with inane comments, why don't you try listening to Nick Drake, who released his first album, Five Leaves Left, the same year Joni Mitchell released her first record. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:51:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: re: responding to posts about Joni Mitchell I like a good lightsaber duel as much as the next Jedi knight -- but you two might want to think about taking this one private ... airing this personal dispute out on-list can only serve to increase its fury -- with predictably unpleasant results. Just a gentle suggestion. Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:56:25 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: The Boho Dance (long) Boy, it didn't take me long to get hopelessly behind on posts. Please forgive me if someone has responded in the same way long ago! David, I'm so glad you decided to 'send' instead of 'delete' on this one. Great post! I'd like to comment specifically about this paragraph in your post: >The lines that confuse me most are "And you were in the parking >lot/Subterranean by your own design." I've always read these lines to >mean that literally the person being addressed was the architect of the >building, which would imply to me a certain prestige, and that it was a >style of architectural refinement and subtleness (subterranean) the >virtue of which was inscribed upon contempt for Joni's style (!). In >the following verse again the implication is that the person being >addressed has affected a style of simplicity ("Sure it's stricken from >your uniform"), and that in fact this style was a function in part of >not being "rich" ("You couldn't step outside the Boho Dance now/Even if >good fortune allowed"). I am left to wonder why this working architect >is not financially successful and what his relationship is with the Boho >dance, the romanticizing of austerity. Any insight? Is this a complete >misreading of the song? > I always saw the line "Subterranean by your own design" as describing this person as a follower of the "Beats" and their hero Jack Kerouac. He wrote a book called "Subterraneans" and he was also a big influence on Dylan (hence Subterranean Homesick Blues). The main characteristic of a Beat was the fact that he was a drop-out from society and disdained any recognition, wealth or status from "squares." He was revered as a holy acsetic while at the same time living completely free of any "hangups" like the chastity or sobriety usually associated with saints. I always saw this song as a sequel to "The Priest." Now the Priest is fed up with his roof ripped with hurricanes and wants a piece of the action but it's too late. (You couldn't step outside the Boho dance now even if good fortune allowed). My measly two cents. Take care, Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:00:16 -0400 From: "dayn-castello" Subject: one reson why... Patrick, et al If Joni's "Carey" was James, then I guess it was James who always had the "'caine", and Joni had the "silver" spoon. Yes? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:44:23 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: challenge to British JMDLers In a message dated 14/06/99 20:28:23, Gertus@AOL.COM writes: << James read in Canadian press:- < Zekas goes on to say that Joni was about to go to London to work on an album with the London Philharmonic. Well, what are we doing about it, guys?! Someone must know someone in the London Phil with some inside information. Where do they hang out, rehearse etc etc. How about you, Azeem, surely you must have some contacts in the London orchestra world. >> I know a couple of people who might be able to help (although Colin's lead sounds very promising as well). Chiefly a friend of mine's other half used to play with one of the big orchestras, so I'll get onto it as soon as I can; as you say, this is IMPORTANT! Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:40:26 -0400 From: Bob.Muller/GV/FD/FluorCorp@fluordaniel.com Subject: re: responding to posts about Joni Mitchell Hi Victor! Are you new to the list? I assume so, so welcome! You're a musician, which instrument? Do you play Joni's music? There are lots of fellow musicians here (me NOT included), so you're in good company. Don't be too miffed by Paul's comeback - I was a part of the group that was also at that show (I live in SC). We all gathered to eat, greet & meet, which was a lot of fun putting faces with names, and after the show some of us managed to connect with Joni at her hotel. In your case, you connected with your gift, and that's a great story - I know it meant a lot to you for her to acknowledge your gift! For the record, I too was a bit taken aback when you said you were late to her show (although I don't know the reasons & it's none of my business) after saying that you would pay 100$ to see her.Speaking for myself, I was afraid I wouldn't be able to find a parking space on Georgia Tech's campus, I ended up parking illegally in a student lot but figured I'd risk the car hassles to make it to the show in time. It was the first time seeing her live after being a fan for over 25 years, and I wasn't about to let anything get in my way!! :~) I was also lucky enough to just recently (and thanks to a fellow lister I met at our "meet n' greet) obtain a copy of the beautiful rendition Joni did of "Both Sides Now" as well as all of us singing 'Happy Birthday' to her. You wouldn't happen to have a copy of the ENTIRE show, would you? (Just thought I'd ask). Anyway, thanks again for sharing your "Taming the Tiger" story...sometimes as you see the discussion here isn't always as tame... Bob in Greenville SC (although right now in NJ...feh!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:50:11 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: responding to posts about Joni Mitchell Victor: Thank you for recalling Joni's concert in Atlanta on her birthday last year...I went to two shows on the West coast mini-tour, but my heart still aches from having missed Joni's birthday concert. I'm glad providence allowed you the pleasure. I'm going to have to look up that photo of Joni holding the gifts you presented her with. Must have been a thrill! Not to make excuses for any listmembers, but you may find that some folk come across somewhat persnickety at times...although I'm convinced that, for the most part, they mean no harm. For what it's worth, you couldn't have been all that late...I believe "Night Ride Home" was the first song. Anywho, thanks for sharing. - -Julius np: "If I Needed You" - Townes Van Zandt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 22:47:16 +0200 From: "Peter Holmstedt" Subject: California Dreams This is an email update from Henry's Diltz's web site: Henry's Gallery Feedback - http://www.powernet.net/~peterb Happy Summer to all of our friends in the Northern Hemisphere. All others keep warm by the fire. A lot has been going on with Henry and friends over the last weeks. Check out the review in this months Yahoo Internet Life Magazine on our site. In August, any of you flying United Airlines will find a 6 page layout of henry's photographs in the United magazine. We are in production on our TV special and DVD release. The TV special called, "California Dreams" will air sometime at the end of this year or January. We will let you know when we have a certain date. Also we interviewed Stephen Stills, Gerry Beckley and Dewey Bunnell last week and will interview Jackson Browne in the next two weeks for the special. We would like your comments back to this mailing on what you would like to see, hear or find out about on our special. We will listen to your comments...Till Next time. Henry & Peter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:50:41 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Joni Lyrics Game Whoo-eee! Got 9 out of 10 on Level 1; 10 out of 10 on Level 2; and 9 out of 10 on Level 3! What fun! I always knew I'd find a purpose for this strange brain of mine! Lindsay Moon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:34:28 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: responding to posts about Joni Mitchell victor, thanks for your story! i don't know whether you're new to the list. in any case, glad to hear from you. wally k ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:34:02 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Red Herrings Don Rowe recently posted ... >_________________________________________________________________________ >- Steve Dulson wrote: >> >> My dear friend Rin and his girlfriend spent a day searching Saskatoon >> for Sisotowbell Lane. That was before we found out that it was a relic >> from Joni's acronym days: Somehow In Spite Of Trouble Ours Will Be Ever >> Lasting Love. >> >Now isn't that just like Joni to send us off on a snipe hunt. Kind of >makes you wonder what other sorts of red herrings we're fishing for here >on the jmdl ... ;-) > >Don Rowe >_________________________________________________________________________ the elusive 'Penis' hunt immediately comes to mind. it's amazing what people can 'fool' themselves into seeing. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:34:23 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: JONI, Leonard Cohen recently while catching up on some un-read JMDL Digests, i came across the following post from Susan Chaloner >______________________________________________________________________ >>John Low wrote: >> >>Does anyone know if Joni made it into any of Leonard Cohen's work? >>John. > >I don't know much but that never stops me ;~D If Joni didn't make it >into Leonard Cohen's "Suzanne" she should have ... Maybe there's still >time? > >Susan L.A. >______________________________________________________________________ frankly i don't know whether Joni Mitchell is the subject or inspiration for any Leonard Cohen songs. however, i do have a friend lurking on the list who is a Cohen 'collector' and quite knowledgeable regarding Leonard and his work. perhaps he'll enlighten us. this much i do know, Joni Mitchell is definitely not the subject of the song 'Suzanne'. there are, in fact, two ladies named Suzanne that loom large in Cohen's life. From: "Various Positions: A Life Of Leonard Cohen" by Ira B. Nadel (ISBN 0-679-44235-9) While in Montreal, Cohen met Suzanne Verdal, a dancer who was one of the inspirations for two poems that would appear in 'Parasites Of Heaven' in 1966. He first saw her dancing flamboyantly with her husband, sculptor Armand Vaillancourt, at 'a boite' in Montreal called Le Vieux Moulin. The first poem, beginning "Suzanne wears a leather coat," celebrates her dangerous beauty. The second, better-known poem is a version of his well-known song "Suzanne," from his first album, SONGS OF LEONARD COHEN (1968). He wrote the poem in the summer of 1965, although it lacked focus until Suzanne took Cohen to her loft near the St. Lawrence river. She remembered that they would spend hours talking by candlelight. Cohen maintained that they "were never lovers, but she gave me Constant Comment tea in a small moment of magic." Images in the song were drawn from a visit to the seventeenth-century La Chapelle de Bonsecours, the mariner's church in old Montreal with the figure of the golden virgin at the top with her body turned away from the city to bless the departing mariners. Inside the sanctuary, hanging from the ceiling of the triple-steepled church, are votive lights suspended in model ships. Yafa Lerner can remember walking with Cohen in September 1965 and his excitement about the poem. In a 1986 interview on the life of John Hammond, the Columbia Records excutive who gave Cohen his first record contract, Cohen explained that the opening verse of his song was more or less 'reportage': "Suzanne takes you down / to her place near the river / you can hear the boats go by / you can spend the night beside her." Verse two represented the religious symbols of Montreal, a city filled with religious iconography. "And Jesus was a sailor / when he walked upon the water / and he spent a long time watching / from his lonely wooden tower ... forsaken, almost human / he sank beneath you wisdom like a stone." Cohen summed up verse three as the "compassionate attention that a man looks to receive from a woman": Now Suzanne takes your hand and she leads you to the river she is wearing rags and feathers from Salvation Army counters And the sun pours down like honey on our lady of the harbour And she shows you where to look among the garbage and the flowers And you want to travel with her you want to travel blind and you know that you can trust her for she's touched your perfect body with her mind (pg. 125) --------- Leonard Cohen met nineteen-year-old Suzanne Elrod in an elvator at the Plaza Hotel in New York. Cohen was there to attend a Scientology session, one of the potholes on his road to enlightenment, and Elrod was living at the Plaza, supported by a businessman. Elrod stepped out of the elvator as Cohen was going in. He looked at her, spun around and quickly introduced himself. Their relationship began almost immediately. She soon left the Plaza and moved into Cohen's downscale apartment at the Chelsea. Their difference in age never affected their relationship, although once when Cohen was doing an interview and gave his real age, 34, she interrupted to say, "Leonard, don't say how old you are." He laughed and quoted John, 8:32: "The truth shall set you free." In their first year together, Cohen and Suzanne were itinerant, living on Hydra, at the Chelsea in New York, and briefly in Montreal where, after a short stay with Robert Hershorn, they rented a small house in the Greek section near Mount Royal. He wrote and composed, while she dashed off a pornographic novel, written "to make us laugh." He gave Suzanne a filigreed Jewish wedding ring, although they never actually married. They eventually settled in Nashville. (pg. 163) --------- Suzanne Elrod is the mother of Leonard Cohen's son Adam (born in 1972), and a daughter Lorca (born in 1974). as for Leonard in JONI's work, well that's a little easier. once again, From: "Various Positions: A Life Of Leonard Cohen" In 1967, Cohen began a romantic relationship with Joni Mitchell, whom he first met at the Newport Folk Festival. He would visit her at the Earl Hotel on Waverly Place in the Village and since Mitchell frequently played in Montreal, she would spend time with Cohen there, writing the song "Rainy Night House" about their visit to his mother's home. When Cohen went to Los Angeles in the fall of 1968, he spent nearly a month with her at her new Laurel Canyon home. Cohen, Mitchell acknowledges, inspired her, giving her another standard in songwriting, although sometimes his presence surprised her---as when she found his name inscribed on the back of a heavy pendulum that fell off an antique clock she owned. He and Dylan, she has remarked, were her "pace runners," the ones that kept her heading to new and higher musical ground. Cohen characterized their relationship as "the extension of our friendship," a friendship that has endured. (pg. 156) --------- Following his father's death, Cohen won a significant dispute with his mother over custody of Nathan's pistol, a military souvenir. Cohen had been fascinated by his father's military exploits and at one time Nathan had spoken of sending Cohen to a military college, an idea Cohen eagerly accepted. The FAVORITE GAME describes the dispute over the gun, presented as an important talisman: a "huge .38 in a thick leather case ... Lethal, angular, precise, it smoldered in the dark drawer with dangerous potential. The metal was always cold." Cohen has always been fascinated by weapons, reflected in his novel BEAUTIFUL LOSERS. "I loved the magic of guns," the character F. declares. For several years Cohen himself kept a gun. In her lyric to "Rainy Night House," Joni Mitchell describes how she and Cohen took a taxi to his mother's house in Westmount during her absence: "she went to Florida and left you with your father's gun alone." (pg. 17) --------- RAINY NIGHT HOUSE It was a rainy night We took a taxi to your mother's home She went to Florida and left you With your father's gun, alone Upon her small white bed I fell into a dream You sat up all the night and watched me To see, who in the world I might be. I am from the Sunday school I sing soprano in the upstairs choir You are a holy man On the FM radio I sat up all the night and watched thee To see, who in the world you might be. You called me beautiful You called your mother-she was very tanned So you packed your tent and went To live out in the Arizona sand You are a refugee From a wealthy family You gave up all the golden factories To see, who in the world you might be. -------------------------------------- Leonard Cohen also 'inspired' ... THE PRIEST The priest sat in the airport bar He was wearing his father's tie And his eyes looked into my eyes so far Whenever the words ran dry Behind the lash and the circles blue He looked as only a priest can, thru And his eyes said me and his eyes said you And my eyes said, let us try He said, "You wouldn't like it here No it's no place you should share The roof is ripped with hurricanes And the room is always bare I need the wind and I seek the cold" He reached post the wine for my hand to hold And he saw me young and he saw me old And he saw me sitting there Then he took his contradictions out And he splashed them on my brow So which words was I then to doubt When choosing what to vow Should I choose them all-should I make them mine The sermons, the hymns and the valentines And he asked for truth and he asked for time And he asked for only now Now the trials are trumpet scored Oh will we pass the test Or just as one loves more and more Will one love less and less Oh come let's run from this ring we're in Where the Christians clap and the Germans grin Saying let them lose, crying let them win Oh make them both confess ------------------------- for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- PS: Do you believe in telekinesis? Raise my hand! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:35:54 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Joni's little WILLY recently someone posted to the list wondering about a sexual 'connotation' to the title of Joni's song 'Willy'. i didn't save the post but do remember there weren't any of those little smiley faces :~) indicating humor or an attempt at speaking in a 'tongue in cheek' manner. it's hard to believe the post was serious but, just in case ... WILLY is/was a nickname for Graham Nash. the song was written about Graham during his relationship with Joni. ___________________________________________________________________________ the following is from an interview with David Crosby, Wally Breese was the interviewer. DC: Yes, it was very difficult for me. I'd sit there and struggle over one song, like 'Guinevere' for a month, and she would have written 5 songs that week. WB: After you and Joni stopped being a couple, she moved in with Graham (Nash), and they wrote all those songs about their relationship like 'Our House,' 'Willy,' etc. It seemed as if you all were writing about and to each other. DC: You know, we did write a lot to each other back then. She was one of the three women I wrote "Guinevere" about. WB: I guess another was Christine Hinton? (Christine was David's lover who was tragically killed in an auto accident in 1969). DC: Uh-huh. WB: And who would the third one be? DC: Oh, someone that nobody knows. WB: Keeping that fact to yourself, David? DC: Yeah. the Complete Interview can be found on The Joni Mitchell Homepage, at URL: ___________________________________________________________________________ Graham Nash has written several songs about Joni, including OUR HOUSE, SIMPLE MAN and MAMA LION. here's what Graham had to say about 'Our House': Written for Joni Mitchell, about her house that we shared in Laurel Canyon, on Lookout Mountain. It was written on her piano. Such a charming house. She had a collection of multicolored glass in the window that would catch the light--the 'fiery gems.' There was a fireplace, and two cats in the yard. It was like a family snapshot, a portrait of our life together. Graham Nash RE: 'Simple Man' From: CSN ~ Boxed Set Booklet: "The day before the Fillmore East show in June of 1970 i broke up with Joni Mitchell and my whole world fell apart. The afternoon of that show i wrote this song and that evening i performed it live for the first time, with Joni sitting in the audience. i don't know how i got through that." Graham Nash From: "Songs For Beginners" (c) 1971 SIMPLE MAN I am a simple man So I sing a simple song Never been so much in love And never hurt so bad at the same time. I am a simple man And I play a simple tune I wish that I could see you once again Across the room like the first time. I just want to hold you I don't want to hold you down I hear what you're saying and you're spinning my head around And I can't make it alone. The ending of the tale Ss the singing of the song Make me proud to be your man only you can make me strong like the last time. I just want to hold you I don't want to hold you down I hear what you're saying and you're spinning my head around And I can't make it alone. -------------------------- 'MAMA LION' The horns in the fog could be heard if not seen helping to guide the blind in a dream And down by the seashore, a banquet she gave She was feeding and needing a soul she could save Mama lion, Mama lion I'm starting to sink beneath the sunshine and the icicles in the things that you think There's a hole in my destiny and I'm out on the brink Mama lion, Mama lion She bounces off the boulders, she runs on the rocks She's taking her time from her grandfather clocks And over the border and down on the land She's living in the future and it lies in her hand Mama lion, Mama lion I'm starting to sink beneath the sunshine and the icicles in the things that you think There's a hole in my destiny and I'm out on the brink Mama lion, Mama lion for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:22:41 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Joni spotted at Shawn Colvin concert Thought I'd pass this on from the Shawn Colvin discussion list (small-repairs@smoe.org) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patti Moran Subject: Joni Mitchell (NSC) I suppose this has some sort of abstract Shawn content given her admiration of Joni Mitchell.... Last night I went to see Seal here in Toronto, and walking into the ampitheatre right next to me was Joni Mitchell. She is beautiful ! I almost thought it wasn't her because she looked too young, but it is hard to mistake her distinctive features. I stayed cool and opted not to approach her. About halfway through the concert I went to get a drink, and I walked right by her. So much for being cool ! I could not resist talking to her - I am a huge fan, and she is such an icon ! She was very sweet and gave me an autograph. Wow !!! - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bravo for Patti! Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:24:33 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni spotted at Shawn Colvin concert I wrote, without thinking: > Subj: Joni spotted at Shawn Colvin concert Correction: That should have said "Joni spotted at Seal concert." Sorry! Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:04:30 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: responding to posts about Joni Mitchell In a message dated 6/15/99 4:57:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JRMCo1@aol.com writes: << For what it's worth, you couldn't have been all that late...I believe "Night Ride Home" was the first song. >> NRH was the third song. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:14:12 -0400 From: tolstoy@freent.com Subject: Re: Sisotowbell Lane On the origins of "Sisotowbell Lane"----Steve, my man!! That little goldnugget belongs in the glossary project! Deborah ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #81 ***************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. 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