From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #75 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, June 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 075 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: lyrically challenged ["P. Henry" ] after ashara's bash ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: lyrically challenged ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Joni Covers.. for the boys?? [M.Russell@iaea.org] The Boho Dance [evian ] Re: MRI Music [dsk ] RE: lyrically challenged ["P. Henry" ] Re: MRI Music [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Joni covers ... for the boys? [Howard Wright ] Re: The Boho Dance (long) [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: The Boho Dance [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Joni News in Canada [James Leahy ] Re: MRI Music [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: MRI Music [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Joni Covers.. for the boys?? [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: MRI Music [TheHotelNH@aol.com] Re: MRI Music [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Jazz Snobs [Jerry Notaro ] Re: The Boho Dance (long) [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Springsteen/Ticket prices [Susan McNamara ] why people don't post [Clancyhart@aol.com] Re: Second Fret Sets 1966-1968 [Susan McNamara ] Re: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz [Don Rowe ] Re: FTR Songbook SJC [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: MRI Music [Heather Galli ] Re: Joni News in Canada [Phyliss Ward ] Re: The Boho Dance (long) [Heather Galli ] RE: MRI Music ["Wally Kairuz" ] Record Collector's list out there? [DreamZvil@aol.com] What's in a Name? Take 2 ["Paul Castle" ] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #251 [hdavis@american.edu] Lurker [Suzanne Simpson ] Re: The Boho Dance [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: E.T.'s Crest and Quest-ion ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: The Boho Dance [Ken Corral ] Re: Writing...& the Postless [DreamZvil@aol.com] A boho dancing his way to Chiacgo [CarltonCT@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 00:09:41 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: lyrically challenged wal, LoL! no not at all! *I'm* grateful there are people who care about Joni's music enough to want to get it right. heck, it's been so damn long ago and I played that song so much all over Michigan and Canada, some people probly thought it was mine! could be *I'm* the one who changed verses/words, not Joni! look, wal, I just really hope somehow you and some others learn and keep this song alive... if you can clearly hear Joni use another word on the tape, use it, by all means! I would! no offense taken! we're both in this for Joni's music. pat NP: Sweet Baby James - JT - -- On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:43:58 Wally Kairuz wrote: >Pat! What a ungrateful amoeba I am !!! Of course the first verse is a >priceless contribution. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was nitpicking. I >value your first-hand experience very much indeed. Thanks for your help. >WallyK >-----Original Message----- >De: P. Henry >Para: wallykai@interserver.com.ar >CC: joni@smoe.org >Fecha: Miircoles 9 de Junio de 1999 07:43 >Asunto: Re: lyrically challenged > > >>wally, >>as for the lyric, all I can say is: although 33 yrs ago, that's the way she >taught it to me... > > Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 04:24:10 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: after ashara's bash hi party-goers! I was wondering if any of you plan to stay in the boston area or maybe in ny after ashara's bash. i'm making up my mind about the date for my return ticket and i thought it would be a shame not to hang out a little longer in the us after the party. what's everybody else doing? also, how much is a vg8 nowadays. i might be buying one while i'm there. michael, can you show me how to use yours? i suppose there are plenty of places where i can get one in the boston area. well, let me know what you plan to do, so that i can make my plane reservations as soon as possible. love to you all, wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 04:30:48 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: lyrically challenged oh pat! you read my thoughts! i so want to preserve this gem for other singers that would otherwise never get to know it. besides, just like me is all about ME, so i MUST let the world know, eh? WallyK - -----Original Message----- De: P. Henry Para: Wally Kairuz CC: joni@smoe.org Fecha: Jueves 10 de Junio de 1999 01:17 Asunto: RE: lyrically challenged > look, wal, I just really hope somehow you and some others learn and keep this song alive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:07:03 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Joni Covers.. for the boys?? On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:48:57 EDT TreyCozy@aol.com wrote: > ...See, I myself am male, and I find that it poses quite a > problem in singing most of Joni's tunes... so many of her > songs require almost the entire use of the neck of the > guitar. "Amelia" for example - if you try to use a capo, it's > nearly impossible to maneuver around the chords. > My question is: has anyone found a solution? Any ideas? > Marian? Sue? Terry? Gentlemen? I also find a lot of her songs (especially the early ones) a bit too high for my vocal range, so I generally tune anywhere from 1/2 to several steps lower than the tunings on her recordings. This is a problem when the bass notes go below about B, because the strings start to buzz. If you could afford an electric guitar, amplifier and VG-8 system, you could tune the guitar (via the magical VG-8) to anything. So in your case, you could set the VG-8 to make the strings sound like they were capoed at the 6th fret, but be able to play the guitar as though it is in a normal tuning with no capo. I think this is probably the best solution, really - I would certainly do it if I could afford it. I could almost afford it if I stayed home this year from Boston, but I really want to see everyone again. I banking on winning big time in the lottery this year! Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 02:17:34 -0600 From: evian Subject: The Boho Dance I am REALLY enjoying this Boho Dance thread! It's one of my favorite Joni songs, and I actually think it surpasses "Don't Interupt the Sorrow" as my fave HOSL track... better go back a retabulate the votes, Bob! I agree with Marian about the subterranean line. This is also one song that always seems to speak to me, as in I've appropriated that song with my own personal experiences. The "cleaners press was in my jeans" always meant to me that Joni is saying "yeah, I am trying to be this cool bohemian mama, but I still am, deep down, a product of middle-class North America, and I sort of feel like I really am not a part of this scene, or I don't want to be pigeon-holed into this scene" or whatever. When I was 18, I ended up living in Edmonton with some friends for the summer in this crumbling rat-hole apartment downtown that I now lovingly call the projects. My friends were as bohemian as you could get, and of course I thought they were cooler than hell. Anyway, to make a rambling story short, even though I was trying to be so much like them, and to fit into their "scene", I always felt like "the cleaner's press was in my jeans", you know (both figuratively AND literally... I still shopped at The Gap when they weren't around ;) I was trying to fit into their scene, spiking my hair, wearing gobs of black eyeliner to get that Robert Smith look down (it was the 80's... it was cool then), pretending I was into Ethiopian cuisine, pretending that it didn't annoy the hell out of me that a bottle of wine and some butter were the only things in the fridge and that I liked sleeping on the floor of the creepy apartment without furniture because, as we all knew, home decorating was "pretentious". And, although it was a ton of fun, they WERE subterranean by design, carefully constructing their lives to fit into their underground notion of coolness. As for me, the cleaner's press was in my jeans, and I was missing my clean white linen and my fancy french cologne (which was actually a given -- even back then you could tell I was hopelessly an Eddie Bauer fashion victim). Anyway, that's my little sharing time with you all about the Boho Dance. Evian np: You really won't believe this at all... but I've had George Benson's greatest hits in all night, and someone posted something about him.... sometimes the syncronicity on this list creeps me out! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 05:01:41 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: MRI Music Lori wrote: > > Hi, all. I'm having over 5 hours of MRIs done next week, and they said I > could bring my own CDs that they'll play for me. What Joni (or non-Joni) > would you bring that would be calming and encourage stillness. I'll be > allowed no moving to the beat! 5 hours! wow, that's a long time; it's a great idea to break it down into easier to tolerate CD-length periods. Almost all of Joni's music calms me, mostly because it's so familiar and yet even after so many years, I usually can't do anything while hearing it except be still and listen closely. The CDs I'd most want to hear are Hejira because by the end of it I always feel like I've come through a very difficult time and yet am sure that things will be OK (and there's so many words to hear and images to see and those subtle sounds to be surprised by); For The Roses because I always feel stronger and nourished and inspired by the end of it; and Taming the Tiger because it's just such a sweet gift and very soothing. Without knowing why right now I'd probably also want to hear Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm. I don't think I'd want to hear Blue or the earlier albums because I'd be tempted to sing along, which is probably a big MRI no no, and also because they're so intimate. The MRI space is small enough; the idea of Joni being RIGHT THERE, just voice and guitar, would make be feel extra crowded (or so I imagine anyway). Other CDs I'd probably take are the Chieftains Tears of Stone and Herbie Hancock's Gershwin's World, mostly so I could look forward to hearing Joni's voice on them. And then for a change maybe some choral music would be calming, some Durufle? or Bach? or some Gregorian chant? (although that chanting can really get on my nerves sometimes, so maybe that's not such a great choice). Whatever you choose, I send you my best wishes -- hope all goes well. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 02:00:28 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: lyrically challenged *S* GO for it! truth be known, this is one of my favorite Joni Mitchell songs... for obvious reasons and for others as well... at 17 I was really digging 'FWIW' by Buffalo Springfield and what was cool about that was that I'd already been into their sounds, not realizing at all that they were basically a Canadian band but definately knowing who Steve Stills was and Neil Young were and how each one sounded and when she said she wrote the song about Stills it blew my mind! I mean here we were, just a couple of folkies talkin' and here she KNOWS Steve Stills! (ie: she was *not* a big star then but very happy to just be one of us) (not to say that she wouldn't be/isn't now...) I think she said she went to school with him... an' I'm goin' 'wow, cool! really? wow, you KNOW him?!?' it's really a trip, thinking of it now... after all this time and the way things have turned out... (yeah... I know she was still a really great artist... and I was blown away by her completely... but she's just that way! when you're with her you feel just like you feel for any other, close, trusted friend... relaxed and happy... no worries) ya know, probly like yourself, I'm in agreement with Joni that she has not received the recognition she should have and, for many, remains a well kept secret... but, as a friend of hers who knows her and cares about her, like Brian Moss and Michael Heath, I am grateful for the exposure she and her music *have* rec'd and so glad there became a 'stage' where you all could experience the beauty that we saw and heard back then... I wish I could share it as to get the idea across right... what she was like..? how she was..? it's different when nobody is a star... anyway, I'm rambling; I fully expect that her music will be around for a good long time... in fact I think that maybe someday Canada will not be the only place her music is taught in college! *S* thanks for helping make sure this song doesn't get lost between the cracks. pat NP: FTR - -- Wally Kairuz wrote: >...i so want to preserve this gem for other singers that would otherwise never get to know it. besides, just like me is all about ME, so i MUST let the world know, eh? >-----Original Message----- >> look, wal, I just really hope somehow you and some others learn and keep this song alive >> Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:12:44 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: MRI Music Joni songs I would want to listen to if I had to stay immobile for 5 hours: Michael From Mountains Sisotowbell Lane Tin Angel I Don't Know Where I Stand Ladies Of The Canyon Woodstock All I Want Blue A Case Of You Barangrill Electricity Court and Spark Just Like This Train Sweet Bird Shadows and Light Hejira Blue Motel Room Paprika Plains Otis and Marlena God Must Be a Boogie Man The Wolf That Lives In Lindsey Chinese Cafe Love My Secret Place A Bird That Whistles Night Ride Home The Only Joy In Town How Do You Stop Yvette In English Love Puts On A New Face Here's To You (My Best To You) Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:18:06 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Re: Joni covers ... for the boys? From: TreyCozy@aol.com >I have a question for all you folks out there that enjoy covering Joni's >music - specifically on the guitar - especially the men. See, I myself >am male, and I find that it poses quite a problem in singing most of >Joni's tunes. > >... so many of her songs require almost the entire use of the neck of the >guitar. "Amelia" for example - if you try to use a capo, it's nearly >impossible to maneuver around the chords. > >Trey Trey, You're exactly right! It is *very* difficult (and rather frustrating) for men who want to play and sing Joni's songs. You describe the exact problems I have: The vocal parts of many Joni songs just don't suit my voice, i.e they're much too high, and if you try singing them an octave lower it just doesn't work - it just sounds too low and grumbly. Another possible way out is to use a capo to change the key on the guitar. But, because you often need to play chords right up at the 12th fret on the guitar, there's no way you can use a capo or you'd end up trying to finger chords way up at the 18th fret or something! The only way to make things a bit easier is to tune a little lower or higher than normal. If you tune much lower the Joni does the strings are just way too slack, and it sounds pretty bad. Tuning up is possible, by a note or two, but risky. Joni's tunings already put extra stress on the guitar. Tuning higher still could be dangerous! There are a few Joni songs which I love to play, and can sing an octave lower than Joni does. It ends up suiting my voice quite well at this pitch - - this works with "Refuge of the Roads", "Hejira", "The Wolf that lives ..." and a few others, but there are so many where my voice just cannot cope. Its either too high to sing or too low! I've tried "re-inventing" the melody a few times, e.g with Cherokee Louise, but you do lose much of the character of the vocal that way ... I guess the VG8 is the solution - you can tune the guitar up or down as you like so it matches the key for your voice! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:34:48 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: The Boho Dance (long) Deb's suggestion that Chuck is the subterranean is fascinating and probably correct. It disappoints me a little because I always imagined that she was addressing an edgy, alternative, avant garde type, whereas Chuck is merely unsuccessful (in.relative terms anyway). Thinking about it now, the Tom Wolfe reference may be slightly misleading. She probably only mentions it to indicate where she got the term Boho Dance from, which in the book refers to critic /artist relationship in the art world. Philip - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:45:45 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: The Boho Dance Evian says: <> For the record, DITS got 6 votes for "Most Favorite Song from HOSL", only "Sweet Bird" had more with 7. DITS also garnered 2 votes for "Least Favorite"...(yes, I saved all my records from that vote, so I win the "Mr. Anal Retentive" trophy for today! :~D) << You really won't believe this at all... but I've had George Benson's greatest hits in all night, and someone posted something about him.... sometimes the syncronicity on this list creeps me out!>> I know what you mean, Evian...sometimes I feel like "Close Encounters" where we're all in our homes building the same mountain... Bob NPIMH: Those 5 tones from Close Encounters... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:01:20 -0500 From: James Leahy Subject: Joni News in Canada A couple of news items on Joni in Wednesday's Toronto papers: This from the Globe and Mail (sorry if line wrapping is odd; this story IS online): Joni Mitchell gets solo art show in Saskatoon Deirdre Kelly Wednesday, June 9, 1999 Singer-songwriter Joni Mitchell is to have a major exhibition of her painting at Saskatoon's Mendel Art Gallery, The Globe and Mail has learned. The exhibition, her first art show in her native Canada, is planned for the summer of 2000 and will examine links between her writing, music and painting. Los Angeles-based Mitchell, who considers herself a regional Prairie artist, grew up in Saskatoon and has always maintained a connection to the place and the surrounding area. The Mendel plans to offer the exhibition for tour regionally, nationally and internationally. Gallery director Gilles Hébert, curating the project, said yesterday the show will satisfy a couple of objectives. "I am interested in investigating the nature of regional art production and people who are working in multimedia -- someone who is a painter, a writer and a musician but who has not consciously made linkages in a formal way. And Joni Mitchell is a remarkable example." According to the Toronto Star's Rita Zekas, Joni was in Toronto recently and dined at Joso's restaurant (Joso was part of a husband-wife singing duo in the 60s, Malka and Joso). Accompanying her was Malka (the other half of the singing duo and now a radio producer who conducted a two-hour interview/profile of Joni back in 1979). Zekas goes on to say that Joni was about to go to London to work on an album with the London Philharmonic. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:10:09 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: MRI Music When I fly to Europe I bring my trusty walkman with my best pair of mini headphones and I bring at least two Joni tapes. One has STAS, Clouds, and LOTC. The other has C&S, TI and TTT. Throw in TTT and NRH and that only leaves an hour or so to play The Last Waltz, Live at leads, and Robert Johnson's 29 Songs. Thats five hours about but I have a huge problem as far as an MRI goes.....How do you remain totally still listening to some of those songs. marcel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:20:58 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: MRI Music Lori says: <> Lori, Debra Shea really gave some good advice I thought, I would go with Clouds, TTT, Mingus, for non-Joni I would go with anything by Tuck & Patti or Montreaux. Be sure and remind us specifically when this is happening so we can all lift you up in our thoughts during the ordeal - the awesome power of this group can be pretty amazing... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:28:31 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Covers.. for the boys?? In a message dated 6/9/99 5:52:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TreyCozy@aol.com writes: << My question is: has anyone found a solution? >> Trey, I'm not a guitar techie either, but the two ideas that come to mind are 1. Try them in standard tuning- not the same sound, of course, but it offers more flexibility 2. Try playing on a cutaway so you can get your fingers higher up the neck. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:29:29 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Marty spins: << We're fortunate to live in the Philadelphia area>> Sounds like we need to plan a "Philly Jonifest Part II"...Marty? Glen? Catgirl? Brian? (Well, I KNOW Brian will be up for it...) <> Hopefully you don't consider this spam...:~) And I know what you mean, I've been around for about 18 months and still can't decide if I want to stay or not! LOL! Bob NPIMH: Maurice Williams, "Stay" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:39:25 EDT From: TheHotelNH@aol.com Subject: Re: MRI Music Joni music for an MRI.... Well, the first thing that comes to mind would be "Hejira." The melodies and rhythms are very relaxing, and the travel theme might serve to sort of take you to another place while you're listening. As far as music goes, I think Clouds and TTT would be good in that situation too. Good luck with it... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:38:40 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: MRI Music That's a great setlist Marian...now she'll have to persuade you into coming over and playing them for her! :~) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:02:13 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Jazz Snobs Wally Kairuz wrote: > In the 70's, I attended a jazz conference in Buenos Aires. Mingus had just > come out, and I couldn't understand what all the bad reviews were about. I > asked this American panelist what he thought about Joni's work on Mingus and > he saud, "Well, she isn't really a Jazz singer. She's blond you know..." Maybe this American panelist never heard of Peggy Lee????? np: Chieftains - Tears of Stone (guess which cut?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:59:45 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: The Boho Dance (long) My one brief reading of your post will not allow me to do it justice right away (I'm saving it in case there's more time) but I hadtwo reactions immediately. The line about the parking lot? The parking lot is outside/removed from the main action. If you're in the parking lot, you're "there" but you haven't got your foot in the door. "Subterranean" reminded me of "The Subterraneans," a novel by Kerouac, who of course is perceived as one of the architects of the Boho Zone by most cultural historians. I think JM is telling someone that there is a ritualized quality to the bohemian lifestyle, even while its practitioners claim to be rejecting precedent and custom. The lifestyle, when IT becomes more important than the creative work which, it is claimed, necessitated it, is open to legitimate questioning. For me, the most memorable line is "the cleaner's press...," where the singer tells us that the lifestyle was not an end in itself , that she's not ashamed of having always wanted to succeed. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:18:25 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz I have to be careful here. I'm thinking of "rhythm" in two ways. Except for "Blue Motel Room," I'm not aware of any JM songs recorded in a rhythm that is also customary in jazz. Likewise, there is very little improvisation on her records with the scope of a jazz solo; one exception would be that amazing multi-percussion thing on DJRD. So, no I don't think her recordings are jazz. However, when I listen to her vocals on many, many cuts, I hear a strength, variety and inventiveness that any jazz singer, IMO, should admire. In most pop songs, the melody for each verse is identical--same note values, same accentual pattern, etc. But JM is hardly ever found adhering to this kind of repetition. Good example: "Black Crow" on HEJIRA. LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:29:29 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Springsteen/Ticket prices I'm sorry but I'm sure the Ghost of Tom Joad is turning over in his grave. And I agree that seeing the boss and the E street band in Jersey is a classic life experience, but Ma and Rose of Sharon won't be there. (I saw him in Jersey in '92! I think I paid 50 bucks at the most and he was there for at least a week. Inflation, I guess.) > $200 or $250 is probably a lot for any concert, especially since they're >playing 15 dates there, but if you've never seen Bruce and the E Street Band, >you haven't seen the best show in rock and roll. > Joni was great in concert, but the Boss is a whole different thing. > I've seen Bruce and the boys four or five times; I'm sure there are others >on the list who may have seen him more and can attest to what I say. > I'd love to see them again. > >Paul I ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:49:26 EDT From: Clancyhart@aol.com Subject: why people don't post i have been thinking about why i don't post more. sometimes i have strong opinions about what is said, but by the time i formulate my thoughts, someone has already expressed what i was going to say anyway. but that is sort of a cop out...i think that i consider writing and posting a message a creative endeavor, and my creative energy is just so low these days. i don't know if other moms on the list have experienced this, but raising my children really takes so much energy, physical and emotional. and i guess it surprised me to realize that being a mom is a creative outlet, as well. i realized a few years ago, right before my marriage hit the rocks, that so many of the women i admire most are single, or have had several marriages, or don't have children. i started to wonder if being married with kids was stifling to a woman's creative fires...or maybe it satisfies the creative urges? i don't know. sometimes i feel so torn between wanting my family to be my life's work, or wanting my life's work to be something that will satisfy my personal, intellectual self. some days, after just being a great mom, going hiking with the kids, washing the dogs, picking veggies from my garden and cooking them, cuddling with my youngest while she falls asleep...after all of that beautiful living, i'll just lie in my bed and cry my eyes out because i feel so lost in it. okay, i don't post because i always end up getting too personal and way off track! and in a way, this has something to do with joni because she is one of those women that i admire... i ran into my college creative writing teacher last week, when i was at the local farmer's market with my kids. and she said "are you still writing, amy?" and i said "i haven't written a story in eight years." and she just shook her head and said," come back to it someday. it's still there." and i guess that's true--maybe right now i need to be learning the lessons that i'm learning, about love and giving and finding fulfillment in the happiness of my children. and i just have to have faith that i won't disappear, and that i won't resent them for those nights that i cry myself sick, and when all of my prayers start with "please, god, please," and end with "thank you, thank you." because i feel both of those things--infinite sadness, infinite joy--all of the time. is that just what being a parent is? walking around all of the time with my heart in my throat... but having said all of that, this list is one of the ways that i remind myself of who i still am, and who i want to be. what a gift we give to each other...amy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:03:46 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Second Fret Sets 1966-1968 I was listening to tape tree #3 the other day and there is an interview with her and Chuck Mitchell where she says that a number of people were recording her songs, and also that some people were comparing her voice to Baez. She says something like she is in the process of discovering her lower singing range and that may differentiate her from other folk singers. I think even back then, Joni had a problem being compared to other artists. I am sorry for the inaccurate paraphrase of the interview. I'll try and listen to it again tonight when I get home and transcribe the conversation. By the way, I think it's important to say as many times as possible for newcomers to the list that Tape Trees are wonderful rare tapes of Joni that we trade with each other for the benefit of list members. Tape tree #3 includes the Second Fret sets you mentioned in your email. GREAT STUFF!! Take care, Sue >I just got this for $46 on my first and maybe last trip to my beloved ann >arbor since I moved away almost a year ago... maybe last because everyone >I love there is moving away. But they sure have better record stores than >Atlanta... I'd only ever read about some of the songs on here before and >I'm so happy to finally have some pre-STAS document. The versions of many >of the familiar songs here are a revelation, mainly because she sings >several of them much lower than she would on record 2-3 years later. I >would not have expected this, but I like it very much. In fact I've long >felt better about her lower range post-mid 70s than her high range. Now I >know that she made something of a different kind of effort going to that >range in the studio. There was a discussion a while back about how her >voice on STAS sounds more like her later voice than the high stuff on >Clouds and Ladies, and how the recording technology (or lack of) on STAS >played a part, and that may be true but I now wonder if she just went >through a phase in 1969-71 of singing very high, and if perhaps, earlier, >it was normal for her to explore her low range? ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:10:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz - --- Dflahm@aol.com wrote: > I have to be careful here. I'm thinking of "rhythm" > in two ways. Except for > "Blue Motel Room," I'm not aware of any JM songs > recorded in a rhythm that is > also customary in jazz. The only other one I can think of off hand is "Crazy Cries of Love" -- but nobody's going to mistake me for a Joni PhD anytime soon ... let alone a jazz afficianado. Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:07:55 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: FTR Songbook SJC Russell encourages: <> Actually, Russell, Marsha previously did a parody on this on the JMDL tribute tapes. You can proceed and finish the job, but I'm not about to go head to head with the mistress of parody...:~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:26:40 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: Re: MRI Music Hi Lori! I would definitely include Hejira amongst your selection. Gee .... you could listen to Joni for 5 hours .... can we quiz you on the lyrics afterwards?? ;-D All the best to you ... Heather >Hi, all. I'm having over 5 hours of MRIs done next week, and they said I >could bring my own CDs that they'll play for me. What Joni (or non-Joni) >would you bring that would be calming and encourage stillness. I'll be >allowed no moving to the beat! (This may be a good excuse to get a few >Joni records on CD that I still only have on vinyl.) > >Lori Allen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:34:44 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Joni News in Canada Wow James! Thanks for the scoop! Hmmm. Joni fest 2000 in Saskatoon? I like the sound of that. And it sounds like the album of standards is making progress. I'm looking forward to that being completed. I'm sure it will be great. But when it's done she can start working on another original album - which I *really* look forward to. Please don't throw things at me! James Leahy wrote: > A couple of news items on Joni in Wednesday's Toronto papers: > > Joni Mitchell gets solo art show in Saskatoon. > Joni was about to go to London to work on an > album with the London Philharmonic. - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:41:29 -0500 From: Heather Galli Subject: Re: The Boho Dance (long) Deb wrote: >I always associated the envious bohemian with Chuck Mitchell. He never >strayed from the folk purist path, did he? And he lives in obscurity (which >is what I thought Joni was getting at with the word "subterranean.") And >Joni has described Chuck as being contemptuous of her. > Can we skip down to the last lines of the BoHo Dance ..... "Nothing is capsulized in me On either side of town The streets were never really mine Not mine these glamour gowns" What is Joni summarizing here? Is she stating that she sits on the bohemian/glamour fence never claiming either side? I think she reiterates here ... before she says "the cleaner's crease was in my jeans" and then in these last lines "the streets were never really mine" Ahhhh ... I love the way Joni weaves words and feelings! Textured thoughts! Heather PS - Deb, I just love this little saying! >~there are only three kinds of people: >those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:32:54 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: MRI Music Lori, don't forget to play VITA NOVA by GAVIN BRYARS, especially the first two tracks. Also Nancy Argenta singing music by Henry Purcell. Healing stuff, believe me. All the BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:10:50 EDT From: DreamZvil@aol.com Subject: Record Collector's list out there? Howdy folks... Maybe someday I can rejoin the ranks of frequent posters...til then, I've been enjoying the dialogue! :) Does anyone know of any listservs out there for record/vinyl collectors ('50's-90's)? We have a collection of about 5,000 albums and 2,000 singles, and while trying to determine it's worth, became even more thoroughly addicted to collecting! Have a great day, y'all... Susan of Dreamzville ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:18:27 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: What's in a Name? Take 2 I'm having one of those "why did I ever hit the send button?" moments - I hate having to explain things that were supposed to be funny when someone takes them seriously. In answer to Ange's post where her friends were calling her ridiculous for planning to name her daughter 'Joni', I wrote (perhaps a little too flippantly, it would seem), >"My sister went to school with a girl whose surname was 'Boyle'. Her parents had named her 'Iona' - now that's ridiculous!!" Let me stress that I totally agree that whatever you name your children and whoever you name them after is not for me to criticize and, as has been pointed out to me, "what's the big deal?" However, in this particular case, the parents had named their daughter 'Iona Boyle' which, when said aloud, sounds like 'I own a boil' - a 'boil' being a red painful swelling with a hard pus-filled core caused by bacterial infection of the skin - perhaps Americans know this better as a carbuncle. Giving your child a name that sounds like "I own a Carbuncle" would seem to me to be unnecessarily thoughtless (and ridiculous!). I would have no problems with 'Joni Carbuncle' mind.;-) Blushin' PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:34:44 -0400 From: hdavis@american.edu Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #251 "I've always seen this song as a reply to someone envious of her success. She saying a part of her wants/wanted to be bohemian but the category doesn't totally fit because she enjoys, has always enjoyed, the finer things in life, the cleaner's press in her jeans and "lace along the seams". She is the "lady in a Paris dress with runs in her nylons" from too much dancing. But she's also saying that she's not attached to any of it ("nothing is capsulized in me") - that she can take it or leave it - that fame and fortune just happened to her kind of like luxury coming "as a guest to take a slave" - whereas this other person is so stuck on being subterranean (underground, alternative, bohemian) - determinedly being an artist in noble poverty - that they couldn't change "even if good fortune allowed". And yet, in spite of being determinedly bohemian, this person is totally envious of Joni's success. I've always wondered who this person is. Marian Vienna" BEAUTIFUL INTERPRETATION!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:37:11 -0500 From: Suzanne Simpson Subject: Lurker Tough story about the lurker who's a breast cancer survivor and under a great deal of stress at work. I have been distressed thinking about it. Just a note to say that the Americans with Disabilities Act should apply; if you feel your employer is trying to force you out through excessive work, shouldn't you consult an attorney? What do the attorneys on the list say? It may not be easy to get another job, as someone suggested, for someone with such a serious medical history, because of employer discrimination about potential insurance costs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:30:13 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: The Boho Dance Heather skips along: <> And she similarly sets it up with the bit about the "Priest with the pornographic watch, looking and longing on the sly". Even before I tried to figure out the song, I loved the originality of that lyric. And it sends the same message - Joni feels like she doesn't belong in the Boho dance any more than the Priest with the watch "stricken from (his) uniform". btw, I've never heard of a pornographic watch, pornographic writing pens, yes, drinking glasses with girls that strip as the glass "sweats", but never a watch. I assume there's a nude girl (or 10-year old boy in the Priest's case :-D) on the face of the watch... Bob, looking for hidden penii on his Dr. Seuss watch... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:39:14 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: E.T.'s Crest and Quest-ion << Eric-which is it Crest or Quest? >> Hi Catman, Actually it's both. *Crest* contains 18 songs, one from each album, which I felt my friends would like. *Quest* contains my personal favs like Paprika Plains & The Wolf.... I'm working on a third CD, The Blest of Joni Mitchell, comprised of all piano songs. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:50:41 -0700 From: Ken Corral Subject: Re: The Boho Dance Here is an excerpt from a radio interview circa 1980. This was recorded 5 years or so after it was written so it doesn't speak to the origin of the song, just a general application. Jim Ladd: Like other artists who’ve started poor and went on to achieve the material trappings of success, Joni Mitchell has taken her knocks from people whose career has not yet done so well. JM: “Wait until they make some money, they’re gonna turn into hypocrites real fast. Ya know, what are ya gonna do with it?....that’s a boho dance. The poor artist is always contemptuous of the rich artist and there are a lot of good things to poke at, ya know...and it does corrupt some people. It depends on what you were motivated [by], if you were money motivated in the first place, when you get your money you’re going to have reached your goal in a certain way, ya know...but, if you’re an artist, ya know...look at Picasso, he was fabulously wealthy and it didn’t mess with his output at all...but when he first became wealthy his peer group turned on him and attacked him and he was very flamboyant at first and had black maids, ya know in ruffled aprons and drove big cars and did a lot of flashy things, but....that’s an experience, why not? You experience your money, you find out what the pros and cons [are]..you find out the tremendous like...well,...I won’t get into the prejudice against the rich, but I’ve been poor and I’ve been middle class, ya know..and I’ve been very wealthy....none of those...you can be happy or unhappy in any financial situation.” Ken C- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:42:04 EDT From: DreamZvil@aol.com Subject: Re: Writing...& the Postless In a message dated 6/10/99 1:52:43 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Clancyhart@aol.com writes: << she said "are you still writing, amy?" and i said "i haven't written a story in eight years." and she just shook her head and said," come back to it someday. it's still there." >> Amy- This made me stop and think. Then I realized - there is so much more to writing than just *writing*. There will be whole chunks of time that you will just be living, experiencing, challenging and being challenged. And occasionally, after a certain amount of time - there will be one day that you sit down in front of a big pad of paper, pen in hand. Or in front of a blank screen, hands poised above the keyboard. And then you leap... Be grateful for and happy in the times of experience and quiet growth. And all that leads and lends to the writing itself. I have subscribed and unsubscribed to this list more times than I care to count. I learn so much from all of you! Occasionally I become overwhelmed by so much going on around me, and need to go into my shell for quiet time. But I know you are always there for me, when I choose to join in once again! It's a good feeling. Susan of Dreamzville ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:47:25 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: A boho dancing his way to Chiacgo I love Marian's interpretation of The Boho Dance, one of my fave songs ever, just for the wistful trumpets in the background alone. The term "subterranean" was once applied to the Beat writers, Kerouac most prominently. Some of Kerouac's writing and his contemporaries was actually banned as obscene, so they were underground in that sense as well. This thread relates to some other discussions over the past month. In the Boho Dance, Joni (ever the queen of duality) laments the romance of the struggling artist, or what someone once described as the "self-congratulatory dance of the failed artist." There can be a pride in an artist whose work is unrecognized, as if his work is too sophisticated, or remote, or ahead of its time, to grab him any attention. An artist can therefore vault himself to the top of a secret hierarchy where only a choice few can revel in a lofty appreciation. Sometimes only the artist knows just how really special he is - -- and sometimes he may be right. The common mistake is assuming that what's popular is bad. THE PAINTED WORD, from which the term Boho dance is taken, is a brilliant book in which Wolfe documents how much of modern art is a sophistic enterprise which requires both an artist AND a critic to lend meaning and interpretation to an empty canvas, or erased pencil marks, or a single yellow line down the middle of a blue field. These experiments in abstraction need a text to justify them -- a painted word, and a critic proves his own mettle by discovering these artists and then explicating their work. This climaxes in the final work of art that Wolfe mentions, in which nothing is offered but words themselves, where the critic has surpassed the artist as the focus of the effort. I'm the first to say that Rothko, Jackson Pollack and the other abstract expressionists will not be hanging with the Van Gogh's, Rembrandts and Picasso's in the museums of the future. And those modern painters have had their musical counterparts, some of whom would think they had failed if their music were ever to be embraced by the masses. If I had to mention a Joni album as my ultimate fave, it would be C & S, but I know that even back when it was released, that some Joni lovers lamented that our treasured goddess was no longer an acquired taste, but the flavor of the month. I was like that, snotty/snobby little teenager that I was. Just what kind of people were showing up at her concerts? Madonna for one. But for me C & S will always be sacred music because one of the qualities of great art is sincerity. The most sophistic construction which is void of any real feeling or expression is less interesting than a genuine folk effort. I think every hit song on C & S is as sincere as those on Hejira or Turbulent Indigo if less complex or cerebral. Setting out to please a critic and titillate someone on a purely cerebral level is all about struggling up some elitist ladder - it's not about art. Anyway, I will be in Chicago from the 15th to the 20th for the opening of my play SELF HELP, described by one critic as "A brilliant and excoriating satire on the psychotherapy industry." Ever the enlightened self-promoter, I say come and see it. I hope it is a smashing success and will leap to a New York stage and end my boho status forever! For any current boho's who need to use their money for food, there are a few comps around. The play was very well received here in LA and had four runs. It will make you laugh, especially if you have ever been in therapy, and it has Joni content! Oh, and it should have a fair amount of male nudity which has nothing to do with trying to sell tickets. A couple of Chicago JMDLers contacted me a few weeks ago. Regardless of the play, perhaps we could all meet for lunch or a drink? Let me know, I hear you are a nice group! And if anyone can tell me where I might go to sing my own stuff on guitar at some open mike, I would really appreciate it! peace to you all (and in Kosovo finally!) Clark Carlton NP: David Lahm, Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell (Solid Love just makes me smile!) ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #75 ***************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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