From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #72 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, June 9 1999 Volume 01 : Number 072 The Laborday JoniFest is happening this fall! For information: send a message to Join the mailing list at: ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni Moment [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: New Contest? [MDESTE1@aol.com] RE: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Georgia and Joni [Scott Price ] Re: Confessions of a Non-Poster ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Joni Moment [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Confessions of a Non-Poster [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Joni & Drugs [simon@icu.com] Georgia and Joni [Scott Price ] Re: New Contest? [CaTGirl627@aol.com] The Boho Dance (long) [davidmarine1@webtv.net (David Marine)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:05:49 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Joni Moment Pearl relates: <> It must be that whoever Publix buys their music from is a Joni fan, because I've heard "Circle Game" in the Greenville Publix... <> I think hearing Joni instantly is a soothing force, like a breath of cool, fresh air on a hot day. For the ones who don't get it, well, they just have to stay stressed out! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:53:20 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: New Contest? The jokes off this thread could be endless. reminds me of when I was about 8 and someone explained to me why all the older guys in the room laughed when my mom said let me tell you about the pussy in the willow. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:21:58 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: RE: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz Harper Lou said: <> Actually, from what I learned in my Jazz history class @ NC State, Jazz began as a not-very experimental thing at all, but rather very structured. Louis Armstrong, Sidney Bechet, King Oliver, etc. all played a 12-bar blues structure allowing for so many bars of improvisation at certain intervals in the song. Obviously, over the years, jazz has grown from that "structured" mode into the experimental mode you allude to, with the innovations of Be-Bop, Free Jazz, etc. Nowadays, Earl Klugh, Dave Koz, etc. is considered jazz when it wouldn't have been back in the 20's. Personally, I agree with Duke Ellington "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing", and that applies to all music as far as I am concerned. I'm certainly not a jazz snob, I'm just inserting some information I was told a while back. I also think it would serve Reprise & Joni better if her albums could be in the folk, rock, pop, jazz, new age, and whatever other sections the stores segment artists into. Bob NPIMH: Duke Ellington, "Take The A-Train" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 16:27:05 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Georgia and Joni At 03:21 PM 6/8/99, Heather Galli wrote of a Georgia O'Keeffe quote: >>(Kind of sounds like a reflection on Joni's life) It would seem that O'Keeffe and Mitchell share many of the same views on art and music and how they affect one's senses. While I'm anxiously awaiting the long-rumored Joni Mitchell writing project (her autobiography) for each and every word, I'm especially interested to read about Joni's visit to meet Georgia at the latter's home and what the experience taught each of them. My guess is that Joni found a true kindred spirit...a woman with an amazingly keen eye for detail who envisions vibrant colors where others only see shades of gray. Each has shown such a tremendous depth of vision in their chosen fields and I consider both virtually peerless. O'Keeffe, the artist, said she felt music was a more effective medium for stirring human emotions and in one personal letter expressed remorse that her work in the visual arts could not usually move her audience as much as a musician's songs could. Joni being both artist and musician would no doubt have some interesting theories about which form of expression is more inspiring. Once again my guess is that Joni finds painting more personally satisfying, but agrees with Georgia that music more easily reaches a broader audience. I don't know when Joni first "discovered" O'Keeffe but suspect it was during her formative years in school. And I've further wondered how much Joni looked to O'Keeffe as a role model...from her ability to immortalize people and things in "everyday" life by painting pictures (or in Joni's case, writing songs), right down to posing in the nude for the FTR album...something O'Keeffe had done many years before. It would be truly special to read Joni's own thoughts not only on O'Keeffe and their apparent similarities but all the other chapters in her life too. I hope this project comes to fruition soon. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 18:42:20 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Confessions of a Non-Poster > Jenaya, > > I've always enjoyed your posts very much and am amazed you received some > snarky (I love that word and stole it from Evian) replies! When you get > stuff like that, please try to ignore it and keep on posting. > > It is true that many of us do a lot of writing in our jobs and perhaps a > professional type of style may seep over into our posts to the list. But I > wish that would not intimidate anyone or put them off from posting! We > can't help it that we are wordy and long-winded! ;-) > > Another thought I had about this thread - I've received a number of posts > from lurkers who have never posted to the list and always been so interested > and impressed with them. Some have some magnificent Joni and other personal > stories to tell. I've always encouraged them to post but they don't seem to > ever appear. Come out, come out - we want to listen! > > Kakki > > My good friend Kakki always knows just what to say but I want to add two cents or maybe a nickel here. So many of the recent 'why people don't post' messages remind me of the feelings I had when I first started posting to this list. I went through the whole gamut. Should I say this? Will I piss somebody off? Geez, am I ever dull, why would anybody want to read anything I write? Why doesn't anybody ever respond to anything I write? These people are all so intelligent and creative and talented. *I* certainly don't belong here. I voiced some of these thoughts at one point in time and had several wonderful responses from people encouraging me and telling me how much they enjoy what I write. So I have kept on trying to express myself and speak my own truth in the best way I know how. Sometimes my opinions aren't the most popular ones. But they are my honest thoughts that I write here and I think most people respect that. One of the wonderful things about this thread has been all of the very eloquent and well-written posts that have come from people who all seem to think their writing skills are lacking! What nonsense! And Marian Russell? And Terry? These are two people who have made some of the best contributions to this list. Don't ever be silent, Terry & Marian! You matter a great deal to many of the members of this group! So to Jenaya and others who have felt that their words have gone unnoticed or that they have been brushed off I say: Keep posting! I for one read just about every post. Some more closely than others. There isn't time for any of us to respond to each and every one. But sooner or later you'll be right in the thick of things! Mark in Seattle > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:43:03 +1000 From: "Takats, Angela" Subject: re: knocked for joni-love Lisa wrote: <> I hope you are feeling ok Lisa, thanks for taking time to post the list, I enjoyed hearing from you. I can really relate to what you were saying about having to "ask permission" to play joni CD's and stuff like that. I'm so sick of my friends rolling their eyes when I tell them I've bought another joni CD, or I found a joni album - it's always the same old "Oh Ange, when are you going to get over her". And you know when someone comes over for a chat and you want to play background music...what better music to play than joni - but it's always like "don't u have anything else ange?" "how 'bout you put one of my CDs on"...ARRRGGHHHHH Every time I mention this list they are like "I can't believe you do that"...I am now called "joni wanna be" by several people..(And then I made the mistake of telling a bunch of friends how I wanted to call my daughter (if i have one) JONI...they laughed and said "you are not serious, are you?" "that's ridiculous"...) SO, I FEEL YOUR PAIN LISA OH WELL...tough titties I say, I'm going to keep living and loving all things joni for a long time to come YAY ;) Ange ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 22:12:11 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Thomas Ross, Joni and Jazz Bob, your post raised a couple of very interesting issues. First, I have to say that what decade a certain recording is from is not what determines whether or not it is experimental. Same applies to whether or not a jazz musician adheres to the twelve-bar blues or some other traditional form. There were/are experimentalists in every era of jazz. Charlie Parker, the oft-repeated story goes, was jamming on "Cherokee" when, in his own words "I came alive" over some of the things he found he could do. The late Martin Williams (with whose comments I was very impressed) was one jazz critic who continually maintained that the great innovators in jazz were almost always those who were deeply into the blues and who gave priority to the rhythm over the harmony. As for Earl Klugh being considered a jazz musician...well it's rather a sore point with me. I'm not really familiar with his work or that of the other fusion successes, but I'm loath to call a music jazz when it has a prominent rock beat rather than our beautiful American swing. But calling fusion by the name of jazz is basically a MARKETING tactic very successfully practiced by entrepreneurs who have either done research or know intuitively that the word jazz has had, from the 50s on, very positive connotations. It emblemizes individuality, courage, integrity, creativity, sensuality (you can name other qualities). In the marketplace, this tactic has marginalized the traditional jazz values, the practitioners and faithful listeners who have invested emotionally and esthetically in jazz. We are too often blown off as cranky elitists and this is something that I am resigned to living with. Language is a very, very powerful force and the corruption of language is just as powerful. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:18:53 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Moment In a message dated 6/8/1999 9:36:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com writes: << As I walked to the car, I couldn't determine whether Joni's music calmed the crowd, or whether my ears were just soothed by something beautiful and desperately needed. Supermarkets should be required by law to play Joni music non-stop at all times. "Help me, I think I'm shopping in this store again..." Regards, Harper Lou >> What a great post. You made me smile. I always have my *Joni ears* on when I am out. It is amazing how much I hear her. When I do, I get like yoi and everything seems different! We are all lucky that we have this *Joni ability*...OH YEAH!!! Cat...... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:39:13 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Confessions of a Non-Poster In a message dated 6/8/1999 11:32:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, M.Russell@iaea.org writes: << It's easy for me to agree with something someone writes in JMDL, to find it interesting or enlightening, and not feel like I have to write a reply or make a comment. This is especially true if I'm really busy or if I have a backlog of digests. I'm trying to be more responsive, just because I know how much I appreciate it when people respond to me. >> I have to agree here as well. I read so many wonderful posts. John Van Tiel's post about his trip was wonderful and wanted to make a comment but did not know what to say. I find myself nodding in agreement most of the time and then hit delete or even save the wonderful post to my off line mail box. Now, if this list was more like my Joni list where we get a post once every few weeks I could see doing more responding. BTW, if anyone want to join my list and it would be mainly to get cool pictures that sometimes show up (thanks E.T. btw) you can go to JoniMitchellfans@onelist.com. Eric has put tons of pictures of joni from her songbooks and from his own personal archives. I now have tons of pic of her to put on my CD's that I make for myself. I feel so lucky to have this great invention called a computer and now that I have a Photo quality printer, I can make pics of Joni that look like real photos even better because they are MINE! WHOOOOO-HOOOO! Catgirl....looking at her very cool poster of Joni I got from Steve Polifka. It is huge and right over my computer! YEA!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:47:08 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Joni & Drugs on Wed. May 5, 1999, Zapuppy@webtv.net wrote asking ... >________________________________________________________________________ >I was in Barnes and Noble yesterday and browsed the book on Jaco. Only >had time to read a couple of pages, but it sounds like there was quite >a bit of druggin' going on when Jaco was working / touring with Joni. >I realize our sweet Joan is no saint, but does anybody know how much she >was into a drugs back when coke was all the rage? No judgements, mind >you, just curious. > >Later all, Penny >________________________________________________________________________ maybe the following will shed some light. Q Magazine May 1988 JONI MITCHELL: "CHALK MARK IN A RAIN STORM" by Anthony Quinn ____________________________ Q: Where did drugs figure for you? A: I was late to try everything. I was so over-protected within this stable. When Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young did their first album all I knew was suddenly all their personalities were changing. Graham was getting thin: he wouldn't eat and he stayed up all night. I didn't know any of them was doing drugs. They would hide them and whisper when I was around. Q: But you eventually tried them? A: Oh yeah, I tried everything. Well, I never tried heroin because I thought, "What's the point? The worst that could happen would be you'd like it. But altered consciousness is completely tempting to a writer. I did some good writing, I think, on cocaine - Song For Sharon (Hejira), but it kills your heart, takes all your energy, puts it up in your brain and gives you the arrogance that, you know, ruined Jaco Pastorius. (After destitute years of drink and drug problems the former Weather Report and Mitchell band bassist died last September after being beaten up outside a Florida club.) I watched it ruin a lot of people. Q: Were you aware of being "the spokeswoman for a generation"? A: You mean via the song Woodstock? If I was a spokesperson nobody heard me, so big deal. - ------- simon - ------- * Remember, if you don't stand for something ... you'll go for anything. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 20:55:43 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Georgia and Joni At 03:21 PM 6/8/99, Heather Galli wrote of a Georgia O'Keeffe quote: >>(Kind of sounds like a reflection on Joni's life) It would seem that O'Keeffe and Mitchell share many of the same views on art and music and how they affect one's senses. While I'm anxiously awaiting the long-rumored Joni Mitchell writing project (her autobiography) for each and every word, I'm especially interested to read about Joni's visit to meet Georgia at the latter's home and what the experience taught each of them. My guess is that Joni found a true kindred spirit...a woman with an amazingly keen eye for detail who envisions vibrant colors where others only see shades of gray. Each has shown such a tremendous depth of vision in their chosen fields and I consider both virtually peerless. O'Keeffe, the artist, said she felt music was a more effective medium for stirring human emotions and in one personal letter expressed remorse that her work in the visual arts could not usually move her audience as much as a musician's songs could. Joni being both artist and musician would no doubt have some interesting theories about which form of expression is more inspiring. Once again my guess is that Joni finds painting more personally satisfying, but agrees with Georgia that music more easily reaches a broader audience. I don't know when Joni first "discovered" O'Keeffe but suspect it was during her formative years in school. And I've further wondered how much Joni looked to O'Keeffe as a role model...from her ability to immortalize people and things in "everyday" life by painting pictures (or in Joni's case, writing songs), right down to posing in the nude for the FTR album...something O'Keeffe had done many years before. It would be truly special to read Joni's own thoughts not only on O'Keeffe and their apparent similarities but all the other chapters in her life too. I hope this project comes to fruition soon. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 00:57:34 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: New Contest? In a message dated 6/8/1999 3:15:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << As he related, Joni, being in a rebellious mood, put a rather > obvious penis in the psychedelic STAS artwork - and the Reprise > censors never spotted it! I see it now!! It was so obvious but escaped me completely - here all along I thought they were cactuses, a peacock and a duck head!!! Kakki >> Are you guys trying to say that the above mentioned items are really that??? catgirl...trying to see beyond the Cactus, duck and peacock...I need a better imagination...that Herjira thing is way far fetched! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:20:14 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine1@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: The Boho Dance (long) Hi list! -- I've been listening to the Hissing session tape and it's extraordinary. I won't go into detail as the tape has not yet been widely circulated, but it has me once again thinking about THOSL. There's been much discussion here about the lyrics from this album. In general I would say that the lyrics on some of the Hissing songs are triumphant, on others uneven. In particular the deliberately cryptic nature of Don't Interrupt The Sorrow strikes me as ultimately weakening the power of the song, as does some of the imagery which reads to me as a little cliched (e.g. God goes up the chimney/Like childhood Santa Claus). Still I recognize the song's place among the ambitious and bold lyrics on this album, and I think often she hits the high mark she's aiming for, especially on Sweet Bird and Harry's House. At any rate I applaud the characteristic fearlessness of her approach. I've read some fascinating and detailed takes here on Sweet Bird and DITS, and though Boho Dance has been mentioned I've missed any in-depth discussion. The song is especially powerful to me at this moment as I am struggling with the same general issues. Also the session version has some surprising and beautiful chords which add different colors to the song. It has been suggested that the Boho dance is the relationship between critic and artist? I can see that as part of it. I would be interested to hear from those who have read the Wolfe book "The Painted Word." My sense of her meaning is that the Boho dance is more generally the flirtation/fascination with a life of austerity, outside the normal constructs of society, as contrasted with a life of luxury and refinement. In other words, the artist as Bohemian. It seems to me that Joni is wrestling with class issues as she does throughout the album, and more specifically with the dichotomy within her of privilege and marginalization, especially as an artist (which she has spoken to in Real Good For Free, Furry Sings The Blues, etc.). "But even in the scuffle/The cleaners press was in my jeans." It struck me that this is the same image that Joni details in her description of her odyssey in Greece. It seems that she was perhaps self-conscious about it and I imagine her being fully a part of the experiences there yet fully separate (as she was again, in a different sense, with the drifters in Refuge Of The Roads). Joni has always -- intuitively, I think -- fought against the divisiveness of these and other distinctions (Both Sides Now, Shadows And Light, Borderline) because ultimately they are aspects of a whole which is so deeply integrated in her and her art that to focus on them is to miss the bigger picture. Who was it here who coined the phrase "Our Lady Of Duality?" In her work she is always herself (embracing and transcending all distinctions), exposing herself endlessly to the criticism of the "elite'" whether it be the jazz, rock, folk elite, the art world elite, or even the literary elite. "Critics of all expression........Saying it's wrong/Saying it's right." The lines that confuse me most are "And you were in the parking lot/Subterranean by your own design." I've always read these lines to mean that literally the person being addressed was the architect of the building, which would imply to me a certain prestige, and that it was a style of architectural refinement and subtleness (subterranean) the virtue of which was inscribed upon contempt for Joni's style (!). In the following verse again the implication is that the person being addressed has affected a style of simplicity ("Sure it's stricken from your uniform"), and that in fact this style was a function in part of not being "rich" ("You couldn't step outside the Boho Dance now/Even if good fortune allowed"). I am left to wonder why this working architect is not financially successful and what his relationship is with the Boho dance, the romanticizing of austerity. Any insight? Is this a complete misreading of the song? "A camera pans the cocktail hour/Behind a blind of potted palms/And finds a lady in a Paris dress/With runs in her nylons." Symbolically legs can represent the ability to conduct oneself with strength and confidence in society, and the stockings, perhaps, a kind of shield or armor. The metaphors of legs as social and personal strength/vulnerability and stockings as shielding or armor appear in many songs: Come In From The Cold, Help Me, All I Want, You Dream Flat Tires, Love Or Money, etc. I believe that at some deep level these images are probably tied to her polio. Polio, like AIDS, is described by people like Caroline Myss as a disease that reflects cultural ideas of weakness and victimization. I will not speculate as to the nature of the spiritual victory which allowed Joni to transcend her affliction. I'm not sure she has ever directly discussed it, though we have over 30 years of work which illuminates the heart of that victory. Well those are my random and rambling thoughts about the song. I have no conclusion, I'm just hoping to hear the views of others, and really this is the only place I can have this conversation. All the best, David (choosing SEND over DELETE) ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #72 ***************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?