From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V1 #25 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, April 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 025 TapeTree #8 is ready to roll. To sign up go to: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Colorado/Fiddle and the Drum [dsk ] Joni's aura, office drunks and stunted butterflies ["Tube" ] Re: Joni's aura [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Bonnie and Joni [Gellerray@aol.com] Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 [Gellerray@aol.com] Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch ["paul tyrer" ] Today in Joni History - April 28 [Today in Joni History ] 100% JC and JMDL Content [Bounced Message ] Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ] Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 [Randy Remote ] Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 ["Kakki" ] Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] COLUMBINE TRAGEDY PLEASE READ AND RESPOND [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch [Randy Remote ] Which of us is Joni?? ["paul tyrer" ] Fw: Joni's aura ["Tube" ] Religion/private time [Vince Lavieri ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:12:42 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Colorado/Fiddle and the Drum For the past week, this is how I've heard Joni singing this song, and no longer with her younger, innocent voice: You say we have turned Into enemies not earned But we can remember All the good things you are And so we ask you please Can we help you find the peace and the star Oh, my son We have all come To fear the click-ing of your gun. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:24:01 +0200 From: "Tube" Subject: Joni's aura, office drunks and stunted butterflies >i heard >someone say once that having children is like letting your heart climb right >out of your chest and walk around in the world. This I like. It's true. (My kids, boy and girl, aged 6 and 8) I also liked the butterfly parable somebody sent in. **************************************** >There has been one instance where a co-worker had been so >completely out of control for over a years time, that she was truly becoming >a danger to people around her. She would come into work stoned and drunk in >the morning and was starting to knock over huge shelving units in the office >while screaming and sputtering at her subordinates. I ultimately reported >her to the appropriate people because I felt no one should have to be >subjected to this and she was transferred to another office and then quit to >go onto teaching - (argh). But it it was a long time of living with an >extreme situation before I felt enough courage to do something proactive >about it. My wife was recently slapped across the face (hard) by a colleague at work. There were no witnesses, and her superiors told her to just forget about it. The woman who slapped her has been there 35 years, and is widely acknowledged at work as a drunk, an office thief (I'm not talking about paperclips here, she takes colleague's purses) and a slacker. She doesn't have a senior position at all - (my wife has only just joined the company, at the same 'rank' as this older woman), yet nobody does a thing to reprimand, or better still, fire this woman! What does the team think? ************************************** 'Joni's Radiance': I don't doubt that it's true: There's a lot of talk about filmstars looking very ordinary and unappealing in the flesh, with the makeup and the flattering lighting off, but I think that's probably just sour grapes. I used to work at Harrods, the big store in London, so I've seen a lot of superstars face to face, as well as conversed with them. A typical conversation would be: "How would you like to pay sir/madam" "American Express okay?" "That will do nicely madam. That's a nice pen madam" "Thank you, are you done with my card yet?" "Yes madam" "Okay, thanks. Goodbye" "Thank you madam. Good afternoon madam." Not very thrilling conversation, but it did give me time to get a good look at most of them, and I can safely say that most stars are even more stunning in the flesh than they are on film, even without makeup. Some are positively electrifying. Admittedly it's not always the purely physical beauty that is the thing, it's something else - an aura, charm, something in the eyes, or maybe just something in the voice. At Harrods I met a lot of hip, now, happening, Vogue/Rock'nRollin kind of stars, but you know the one who made the deepest impression on me was Julie Andrews - Little Miss butter wouldn't melt in her mouth Apple Pie herself, a little bit wrinkly now, and hair just tending to greyness. But wow! When she asked me to show her some heated pie cabinets, I felt enveloped in a kind of warm glow. Man the PRESENCE she threw out around her was incredible. Some years later three of Sister Sledge came to our church, along with their mum. They came unannounced and just slipped into the congregation like ordinary folk. As my eyes drifted across the congregation, I first noticed them, not because I recognised them, but because there were these three stunningly beautiful people, like goddesses, that had caught my eye. Especially Kim, the tall one, who looked tired and jetlagged during that british tour and was dragging her swaddled little new-born baby around with her like any old travelling mum, but wow, what a presence, what a beauty she had, her long straight nose and her big-hair extensions lending her that timeless cleopatra-like egyptian beauty appearance. After the service we did talk some, they were very warm and down to earth, but nevertheless divertingly ethereal in their collective beauty. Okay, next part - Movie agents and producers, talent scouts and record company people look around specifically for performers with these kind of qualities, because they know it will project somewhat, on screen, on video, on billboard. It's like copying a tape to another tape or medium - if you start with a fuzzy original, the copy will be even worse quality, so the thing to do is begin with the best quality original possible, then your copy will be more sparkly. Ordinary ugly-bugs and personality dullards like us ain't never gonna get picked up off the street by Howard Hughes and made into stars, because any slight beauty that we have will be lost in the grain after the first-generation film-print copy! Stars like Joni get discovered while they're working cheap (without fancy lighting) because they naturally emit some quality of physical, sensual or spiritual beauty that gets them noticed in the first place. Joni's beauty is not conventional beauty, but it is stunning. The aura, halo, whatever it is that you noticed when you met her the other day was the same aura that got her noticed in the first place and helped her to make a favourable impression with all the people she would need to impress to kickstart her career. Other equally talented musicians without the same kind of aura are still working cheap in bars. This observation is in no way a disparagement of the apparant triumph of glamour over talent. I'm simply saying, 'that's entertainment'. The market always favours the beautiful. And furthermore, as i've inferrred above, it's not necessarily only physical beauty that gets people noticed - Some of the stars I met were not conventionally beautiful, but they were fascinating or interesting, riveting my attention in other ways. I'm a straight man and am not sexually atracted to men, but I have met many men who I considered beautiful and fascinatingly attractive to watch and listen to. This is just another example of the 'aura' thing. Call it star-quality, whatever, some people have it, some don't. I also met Germaine Greer in Harrods (I sold her a vaccuum-cleaner.) She was approaching middle-age then, and knowing her reputation as someone who does not suffer men gladly, I as a shy 24 year-old boy was somewhat intimidated by her, especially as she is tall (and has enormous hands!) I was not physically atracted to her, but I did have one of the most fascinating and fulfilling conversations with her that I've ever had in my entire life (about design and ergonomics). She fascinated me and I felt I could have talked all day and all night with her. Now, I take every opportunity to watch her on TV or read her newspaper articles, interviews etc. Here again, an example of star quality, charisma, call it what you will, but doubtless it is this appealing 'X-Factor' in celebrities that helps them enter, rise and succeed in their chosen fields, as well as the actual talent they possess or the hard work they put in. If Joni Mitchell appeared to have an aura when you met her, it'll be because she DOES have an aura. Never be ashamed to think it. Tube. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:50:18 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Joni mention by B Raitt in 1988 (JC & BC) >that won ANOTHER Grammy for her "I'm in the Mood". Oh, and btw, "Longing in >Their Hearts" was the next disc after "Nick of Time" and that was superb as >well, her covers are to die for Sorry - just had to correct you (since I love Bonnie about the same as Joni!) - Luck of the Draw was the album after Nick of Time! Bonnie has covered some great songs over the years, but I always think of them as hers, since she doesn't really cover really well-known songs, except "Burning Down the House" on Road-Tested - almost better than Talking Heads did it themselves! And I totally agree, Fundamental is a GREAT album - highly under-rated! Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:17:39 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Worst Lyrics Ever (according to Music week) >UK trade rag Music Week have included some familiar lyrics in >their "worst ever" survey. >'Richard got married to a figure skater >and he bought her a dishwasher and a coffee percolator' - anon This annoys me, not because I think the lyrics above are wonderful, but because they're taken entirely out of context! Of course they look silly when you take out one or two lines of the song. There are lots of lines in songs (if not most of them!), which taken out by themselves sound silly, for example "He sat down on a river rock and turned into a toad". Sounds a little silly as it stands, but when you here Carole King sing "Tapestry", you get the full impact! Another example, "If you use this shampoo, true love will come to you", or "Life would be easy if I had that new appliance. Food processors for all of us." - both sound pretty inane, but if you listen to "The Reoccurring Dream" you understand that it's sarcasm at it's best! I'm a little surprised no one else has responded to this, or is it just too obvious to comment on! Helen NP - Bonnie Raitt - You (one of my favourite Bonnie tracks) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:34:39 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: Joni mention by B Raitt in 1988 (JC & BC) Helen said: <> Uhhh, yeah, Helen, I knew that, I was just checking to see if anyone was paying attention...;~) Thanks for picking up on the blooper, I guess as a Bonnie fan I just don't Raitt... Bob The Who, "You Better You Bet" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 05:43:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Worst Lyrics Ever (according to Music week) - --Helen M. Adcock wrote: > > >UK trade rag Music Week have included some familiar lyrics in > >their "worst ever" survey. > > >'Richard got married to a figure skater > >and he bought her a dishwasher and a coffee percolator' - anon > This really pisses me off. Not so much the disrespect for the lyrics, as Helen points out, taken out of context, but the lack of acknowledgement of the author of those lyrics. Who died and left the editors of Music Week as the final word on anything?? In a real pissy mood this morning, Brian === "No paper thin walls No folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:33:15 EDT From: Kleronomos@aol.com Subject: my first post hi. my name is Dan, and I think Joni is one of the greatest artists of our time. I'm quite an anomaly, though, as I haven't even heard any of her albums since C&S, but I'm looking forward to hearing them for the first time. (the reasons for this are complex and would require a REALLY long post) I think I'll start with Hejira (based on what I've read here) and then the Herbie Hancock album. I've seen Joni perform live twice: once in the 70s in a little theater in Southern Calif, and then again last November in NYC (with Bob Dylan). I have been reading this list for about a week now (not all of the posts... there's such a volume of them, I can't keep up!) and I suppose, not surprizingly, there's quite a diversity amongst her fans. A few snippets from me: I would vote Joni's For The Roses as album of the Century, There are few real artists in "the arts." In our times, musically, I'd include Dylan, CSN&Y, Hendrix, Joplin, Raitt, Coltrane, Holiday, (and others, but the list is pretty short) Wally's web site and Sue's TAB page are fantastic. Thanks for the great work there. I spent hours reading the "testimonies" of the participants of the Day in the Garden concert. What fantastic, heartmoving stories! The music at Sue's site has helped get me back into guitar again after many years, and I've performed several of Joni's songs at Open Mic nights around here (This Flight Tonight, For The Roses, Cold Blue Steel..., Case of You, Both Sides..., Circle Game, Urge for Going) I want to do "Woman of Heart and Mind" but I'm a guy, and it doesn't work! But I'm working with a singer on that one. It would be easier to read all these posts if there wasn't so much NJC in them, but of course, we all care about other things as well, and in particular, the recent shootings have caused a lot of hearts to hurt, and wonder what can be done. Everyone (Joni fan or not!) has strong feelings about this tragedy. Personally, I subscribe the the old adage "guns don't kill people; people kill people". I have a concealed carry permit, my 3 teen girls all know how to use my 9mm semiauto pistol, and they all know how to respect the damage it can cause. There are free handgun courses available at many clubs throughout the country. The one I took had about 30 guys in it and about 45 women, and it was fantastic, with emphasis on safety and responsibility. It included a police officer's advice on the legal use of deadly force. Where states licence citizens to carry concealed weapons, crime goes DOWN, and everyone benefits, whether they choose to carry or not (it's a very personal decision). You may remember that it was a teacher with his own gun who apprehended without incident, a boy who did one of the shootings a few months ago. We ALL want to do SOMETHING, and so gun control becomes a fresh topic all over again (leave it to Clinton to capitolize on the situation to push his agenda). But the problem is insanity. That's right. If we don't help kids from going insane, they're gonna find a way to wreak havoc. They'll find weapons to do it with, gun control or not. Shall we ban deer rifles? I know you all appreciate the power of music to move the soul. Have you listened to Marilyn Manson? (a favorite of our most recent shooters). It's "censorship" to legislate against freedom of expression, so we don't do it, but we must do SOMETHING, so take away the guns, right? We can't pass laws against the "Gothic" lifestyle that Manson pushes, Dungeons and Dragons, depraved violence in film, but we have to do SOMETHING, right? Consider this: we as a country have systematically pushed God out of the schools in the name of "separation of Church and State". When our forefathers wrote those words, did they mean "separation of God and State"? Not at all. Just read the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. These people realized that without God, there would be no worthy or useful State. "with firm reliance on Divine Providence, we pledge our lives.. fortunes... sacred honor..." "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." Push God out of the schools? What's gonna happen? We shouldn't be surprized. The Mansons of the world are ready to rush in and fill the spiritual void. I disagree with Joni's line "guru books, the Bible... only a reminder that you're just not good enough..." (the next line is something else, though! and delivered so meaningfully!). I know many of you have found real answers in God's Word, as I have. As I said, there is quite a diversity among us. Thanks for listening to my two cents. Feel free to email me if you wish.... I may miss your response if you post. ((((((((( you all )))))))))))) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:59:42 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: my first post Dan introduces himself: <> That's just because you haven't heard Hejira yet! :~) <> Only if God is pushed out of the HOME as well...let the schools do what they do best, (like teaching us how to spell "surprised") ;~) Welcome Dan! This was quite a meaty first post - and don't worry, we do talk Joni a lot but right now this ugly Colorado thing is looming in the foreground - in the meantime, get out there and get those Joni records! Bob, also God-fearin' but not gun-totin' in South Carolina... NP (Now Playing) John Hiatt, "I Can't Wait" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:13:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Colorado/Fiddle and the Drum - --- dsk wrote: > For the past week, this is how I've heard Joni > singing this song, and no > longer with her younger, innocent voice: > > You say we have turned > Into enemies not earned > But we can remember > All the good things you are > And so we ask you please > Can we help you find the peace and the star > Oh, my son > We have all come > To fear the click-ing of your gun. > Yes, and equally chilling in the Colorado context ... Cheap guitars, eye shades and guns Aimed at the hot blood of being no one ... Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:04:30 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Joni's aura - -----Original Message----- From: Tube >Stars like Joni get discovered while they're working cheap (without fancy >lighting) because they naturally emit some quality of physical, sensual or >spiritual beauty that gets them noticed in the first place. >Other equally talented musicians without the same kind of aura are still >working cheap in bars. Interesting thoughts Tube, I wonder would Joni be famous if she had the songs but not the stunning beauty, presence, personality and general aura. I don't know. In the crazy world of showbiz there seems to be no rules, only exceptions. Alanis Morrisette looks a mess but sells millions. I read somewhere that The Cranberries have sold 28 million records. To me it's scary to think that 28 million homes around the world contain records by a group who can't sing, can't play or write, who look crap and have no personality. Maybe it's better just to accept it as one of life's mysteries. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:33:04 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: Bonnie and Joni In a message dated 99-04-26 19:48:25 EDT, you write: << I didn't watch the Grammys the year Bonnie won for "Nick of Time," unfortunately. However, what I do remember is the look of pure joy and pride on her face as she stood up to clap the year *Joni* won, twice, for "Turbulent Indigo in 1996. She seemed happy as a clam!! Although, IMO, Joni and Bonnie have different strengths as artists, I was quite impressed with Ms. Raitt when I heard her at Milwaukee's Marcus Amphitheatre in the early- to mid-90's. She's an engaging, compelling performer who certainly sang her heart out at that particular concert. >> Mary, o yeah i forgot about bonnie's face when joni won that year. also, i worried that by comparing her to (great not just good) "beer" to joni's "seer" that I might be somehow putting bonnie down...i didn't mean to be at all. I have the greatest respect for her, which, as I think more about it these last couple days, only grows. For me though, for whatever reasons, joni has 'gone in' deeper. but i needn't defend that i am sure--in general here, i'm sure i'd be preaching to the converted... regards, r ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:51:37 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 In a message dated 99-04-26 15:55:56 EDT, you write: << This is the first I've read that the lien was placed on her *publishing* royalties. Without making any comments about the legality of this, I must say that this is really, really low-down stuff. No wonder her attitude. >> And not that i disagree, but what about Geffen's "reply" in the same details where joni was interviewed (i think) where he said that she had taken "millions" in advances from the company, against earnings her albums were supposed to make? Not that i trust Geffen frankly because of who he is (a buisness executive), but let's suppose he was telling the truth--or some part of the truth--do you think he has a point at all--a leg to stand on, at all? I sincerely want to know because I don't really know jack about how that business works; I only know that i grew up loving joni! raymond in illinois ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:20:49 +0100 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch Sorry to go on about this again - it's all Bob's fault! Dan introduces himself: <> and Bob replies: That's just because you haven't heard Hejira yet! Paul replies to Bob: I wonder though whether people can move from thinking FTR is album of the century to preferring Hejira... They're very different animals... Does anyone rate FTR and H as equally brilliant - or does someone who likes one like the other a lot less? I mean, I love H, whereas I only love bits of FTR and it comes fairly low on my list - below Blue, TI, LOTC, STAS, C&S, HoSL and NRH. Is it possible to be a Hejira-bunny AND a Roses-queen?! PX By the way, does anyone have any goss on who 'the priest' was in - surprisingly - 'The Priest'? (I really love the drumming on that track...). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:42:27 +0100 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: Worst lyrics Clearly the person who thought up the worst lyrics piece has no sense of irony! Richard got married to a figure skater/ and he bought her a dishwasher and a coffee percolator These are magical lines, as has been pointed out already - profoundly wry in the context of the song. But another inclusion completely misses the point as well! 'Some girls are bigger than others, some girls are bigger than others, some girls' mothers are bigger than other girls' mothers..' - The Smiths Morrissey was mocking the british tabloid press's obsession with breasts. (One of the worst aspects of Brit culture - topless women splashed across the pages of the best-selling newspapers...). M writes: 'From the ice age to the dole age there is but one concern... Oh I say! Some girls are bigger than others! Some girls are bigger than others! some girls' mothers are bigger than other girls' mothers...' Morrissey's lyrics are *deliberately* funny. Unlike Desree's, unfortunately. I'd also like to see Duran Duran included somewhere in that list. Take this line from 'Is there something I should know' (I think) - 'They say you're easy for me - you're about as easy as a nuclear war'. How true. I almost wept when I heard that, remembering the many times I'd screamed that very line down the phone at some recalcitrant lover... PX ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:38:00 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - April 28 1991: (from Wally's bio): [Today], music channel VH-1 aired a "VH-1 to 1" special called "NIGHT RIDE HOME" that was a full half hour of interview, video bits, and teasingly short peeks of Joni playing the instrumental part of "Cherokee Louise." The special also featured a display of quite a few of her paintings from various eras, and many shots of the double exposure photographs that she and Klein had taken in Canada in 1990. - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:41:15 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: 100% JC and JMDL Content From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 02:57:51 -0400 Well, I finally got my VHS copy of "Painting With Words etc." CD Now screwed up my order so I got it locally. Anyway, I think the sound is pretty good. I'm not sure that I like the wisssssspy, hissssssy reverb on the vocals. Or was it the mic itself was sss'y? (Hi Michael P.!) I think she could have brought the vocals up and drums up and taken the guitar down a bit. (Hi Chuck E.!) She's obviously in love with the sound from her VG-8. What did she call it in a tape tree? A modified Stratocaster sound? Then again, the credits on screen say that Joni herself mixed the sound so I can't complain. I noticed the extra chord change in Amelia. Jesus, is Brian Blade a great drummer or what? What a light touch that guy has! Brian Blade for President. I recognized Pearl right away (Hi Pearl W.!). Who else is in the video and at what time? Where's Wally B.? (Hi Wally B.!) Was Julia Roberts there or does she have a twin? (mmmm) Did I see that cowgirl k.d. lang in the shadows? I'm wondering how the NJC-free list is working out. (Hi Steve D.!) Holy cow in the past year, I found a great job, there's a gold release of "Blue", TTT came out, I saw Joni and Margo Timmins, I got the video, and there's a super Tape Tree gestating. (Hi simon!) Oh, yeah, I almost forgot- the new tape tree includes a great performance at "A Day In The Garden" from the sound board. I've heard a tape from the audience at this show: her performance of "Trouble Man" is.... (insert superlative here). np: Memories of the video & Sarah's "Surfacing" album All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** "Time moves swift an' ya know, happiness is the best facelift." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:58:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch On Tue, 27 Apr 1999, paul tyrer wrote: > > Is it possible to be a Hejira-bunny AND a Roses-queen?! Well this queen goes for the Roses! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:15:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: henry diltz exhibit in L.A. The Photography of Henry Diltz at The Sutton Place Art Gallery The Sutton Place Hotel 4500 MacArthur Blvd Newport Beach, California. Sunday April 25 to Sunday May 16. There will be at least 40 of Henry's photographs on exhibit including many of his classics and a few surprises. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:26:07 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 Gellerray@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 99-04-26 15:55:56 EDT, you write: > > << This is the first I've read that the lien was placed on her *publishing* > royalties. Without making any comments about the legality of this, I must > say that this is really, really low-down stuff. No wonder her attitude. >> > > And not that i disagree, but what about Geffen's "reply" in the same details > where joni was interviewed (i think) where he said that she had taken > "millions" in advances from the company, against earnings her albums were > supposed to make? My understanding is that no matter how much she owes the record company from advances, publishing royalties are supposed to be untouchable, so it sounds like a low blow to me. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:10:03 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 Ray asked: > > And not that i disagree, but what about Geffen's "reply" in the same details > > where joni was interviewed (i think) where he said that she had taken > > "millions" in advances from the company, against earnings her albums were > > supposed to make? Randy answered: > My understanding is that no matter how much she owes the > record company from advances, publishing royalties are > supposed to be untouchable, so it sounds like a low blow > to me. Randy is correct. Awhile back we had a few people expertly explain the recoup/royalties system. I particularly recall Fred Simon's explanation as the most complete. I'm not going to try to explain it here again, but basically there are different types of royalties and only one kind that can be used to recoup advances. Publishing royalties are completely different and are untouchable. Joni owns all her publishing, not Geffen. It is putting a lien on her personal property to recoup record advances. Totally improper and most probably illegal in all cases, unless for some reason she assigned those publishing royalties to him, which is not the case. The deal Joni and most artists make is to let the record company apply certain record sales royalties against the negative advance balance. If the record company makes a bad business decision in advancing *too* much money that is their problem and their loss if they don't recoup. Of course, the artist loses, too. But the Geffen label or its successor, will continue to earn money on all the Joni albums because those albums are still selling. When they still are selling 50 years from now the Geffen label/successor company will pick up the money and continue to deduct the proper royalties from any unrecouped balance. In concept, the record company can't go after her personal property now to pay for a potentially bad business decision to advance more money than could be recouped. What makes this all particularly distasteful to me is that record companies are totally aware that this is improper so it makes it seem all the more slimy to me. There are also musician and performing artist unions and other entities that function as semi-legal entities overseeing the protection of the artists and keeping tabs on the record companies. The record companies are constantly made aware of the rules/laws by these entities. There's no good excuse for impropriety. However, none of us know the complete facts on this so this is all basic speculation, but on the face it sounds pretty rotten. I also question his statement of "millions" in advances to Joni. Joni herself has been quoted as saying advances for each of the albums in the 80s (under Geffen label) were around $300,000. That sounds more reasonable. It is also far less than many other well-known artists receive. And she did sell some of those albums so some amounts have certainly been recouped. It makes absolutely no sense that Geffen would have continued to shell out "millions" in advances to her when none of her albums on his label sold very well, nor were they well-promoted, which would indicate not much belief in them to begin with. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:19:38 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch In a message dated 4/27/99 2:44:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul@tyrer23.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Does anyone rate FTR and H as equally brilliant - or does someone who likes one like the other a lot less? >> FTR and Hejira are my two top Joni albums, for different reasons, but I think in part because to me they each demonstrate her biggest "growth spurts" from her previous works. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:39:44 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch <> Well, you said it yourself, it's strictly a personal thing...the difficulty I think is that in Dan's case FTR looms large for him, and he's listened to it countless times and it's been a close friend in times of crisis and all that. Hejira will never be able to fill that same role, just like for me, I didn't hear FTR til the 90's, but I had Hejira next to my heart since '75, so it's on a pedestal too high to knock off. Everyone's situation is going to be different...and of course I was just being funny in the first place! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:00:21 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: COLUMBINE TRAGEDY PLEASE READ AND RESPOND - --part1_e37670d0.24577f65_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone is interested...your support would be most apppreciated it! internet virtual memorial to the victims of columbine high tragedy > - --part1_e37670d0.24577f65_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) by air-zd04.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:34:37 2000 Received: from onelist.com (pop.onelist.com [209.207.135.229]) by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id BAA11523 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 8008 invoked by alias); 27 Apr 1999 05:08:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 7988 invoked from network); 27 Apr 1999 05:08:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailsorter-105-1.bryant.webtv.net) (209.240.198.119) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 05:08:13 -0000 Received: from postoffice-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net (postoffice-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.35]) by mailsorter-105-1.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.gso.08Dec97) with ESMTP id WAA02928; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production@localhost) by postoffice-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/po.gso.24Feb98) id WAA09065; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:34:33 -0700 (PDT) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQHiRFiiL+J0r0pS700AWTiOeAv4wIUFWt/treLkpyE0Ce+SCcAlCGTNAo= From: PrairieMoon@webtv.net (prairie stock) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:34:33 -0700 (PDT) To: 1_The_Circle@onelist.com, 4windschat@onelist.com, acrystalwaterfall@onelist.com, ravenwings@gorge.net, antieau@fvrl.lib.wa.us, pagan_parents@onelist.com, romannba@modempool.com, lucasw@netcnct.net, WillowWebs@aol.com Message-ID: <27292-37254C69-26746@postoffice-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mailing-List: list 4windschat@onelist.com; contact 4windschat-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list 4windschat@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: 4windschat@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-1428873396-7034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Subject: [4windschat] Fwd: COLUMBINE TRAGEDY PLEASE READ AND RESPOND - --WebTV-Mail-1428873396-7034 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - -------------------- Received: from mailsorter-101-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.97) by postoffice-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by mailsorter-101-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.graham.14Aug97) with ESMTP id WAA29298; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:12:31 -0700 (PDT) From: AFindore@aol.com Received: from AFindore@aol.com (8058) by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id oYRHa18652; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <17402993.24569dae@aol.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 00:57:18 EDT Subject: Fwd: COLUMBINE TRAGEDY PLEASE READ AND RESPOND To: bow4it@juno.com, tdewey@catskill.net, lyndagriek@yahoo.com, marlohelton@yahoo.com, Kiznash@aol.com, alice@telenet.net, prairiemoon@webtv.net, KensGrl12@aol.com, sabae@catskill.net, shampoesmom@yahoo.com, stw01@ibm.net, MCWRN@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_17402993.24569dae_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Reply-To: AFindore@aol.com - --part1_17402993.24569dae_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part1_17402993.24569dae_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Tirerim@aol.com From: Tirerim@aol.com Full-name: Tirerim Message-ID: <17402993.24566a3f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:17:51 EDT Subject: Fwd: COLUMBINE TRAGEDY PLEASE READ AND RESPOND To: AFindore@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_17402993.24566a3f_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: Tirerim@aol.com - --part2_17402993.24566a3f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part2_17402993.24566a3f_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: NYFIREMAN3@aol.com From: NYFIREMAN3@aol.com Full-name: NYFIREMAN3 Message-ID: <17402993.2455ceb5@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:14:13 EDT Subject: COLUMBINE TRAGEDY PLEASE READ AND RESPOND To: CapriWax@aol.com CC: Tirerim@aol.com, RPPlumber@Juno.com, LotsaPets@aol.com, Lotsapets3@aol.com, Silligrams@aol.com, Honiee6881@aol.com, Angels678@EMAIL@MSN.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 15 Reply-To: NYFIREMAN3@aol.com internet virtual memorial to the victims of columbine high tragedy Subject: Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch How about this for an oversimplification? FTR is more the emotional statement, Hejira the more cerebral. Of course there are some exceptions in individual songs. This could relate to whether you respond more to lyrics or music. Also, the infamous 'white lines' are known to produce excess thought patterns. Another difference is in song structure. I find more variation and experimentation on FTR. The song structure on Hejira is AAA: long verses with the song title (usually) at the end of the verse, and no bridge or separate chorus, similar to Dylan's "Tangled Up In Blue" and "Simple Twist Of Fate" period songs. Some people seem to interpret this as boring, but it logically serves the wordiness of these songs. If there was a chorus between every verse or two, there would only be two songs on the whole album! I am one of those that holds both of these amazing records in the highest regard, but if pushed, would probably choose FTR. On a scale of one to ten, they both rate eleven with me. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:26:21 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch <> A pretty good oversimplification Randy, but I think Blue is more emotional than FTR & DED is more cerebral than Hejira...I'd hate to put any of her records in a category, they're all such wonderful head/heart combos... <> Very true, and a greater variety of sounds on FTR - Of course, Hejira's "songs" are more "ambient poetry with acoustic jazz accompaniments", or something that defies description, certainly not any song structures that anyone else would come up with. Bob NP: Talking Heads: "Pull Up The Roots" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:33:07 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: my first post In a message dated 4/27/1999 9:39:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Kleronomos@aol.com writes: << Where states licence citizens to carry concealed weapons, crime goes DOWN, and everyone benefits, whether they choose to carry or not (it's a very personal decision). You may remember that it was a teacher with his own gun who apprehended without incident, a boy who did one of the shootings a few months ago. >> Like Homer Simpson said....But I am angry now!!! Catgirl...not wishing to respnd to the rest of what you had to say because you BLEW ME AWAY! And if an unarmed theif takes your gun,,,then where will you be? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:48:16 -0700 From: Patrick Mead Subject: CD's on Trees At 23:48:45 4/26/99, CaTGirl wrote: >We are in the process of discussing this at this very minute. It appears >that there are a few members who have Cd burners, etc. The main problem is >however, a tape has 45 minutes on one side hence, 90 min. tape. A Cd has 74 >or 80 minutes on a CD, depending on which one you get. There would have to >be alot of overhauling of everything to make it all fit perfectly. Whoever >is going to take on the task has his hands full. I would love to get all of >Joni trees on Cd. I will be painstakingly putting DAT onto CD, keeping in >mind the difference in format. Once I get all mine done. It will then be >very easy to just *run off* a CD. It is the wave of the future, so I think >it will eventually happen! :) >Catgirl Just a couple of more thoughts on this subject to avoid any confusion: There exists an adequate number of people on this list with the ability and the willingness to make CD masters of the material we tree. That is NOT the barrier. I assume that there an adequate number of people who can clone CD's to serve as branches, but to my knowledge that assumption has not been tested. Michael's original post was accurate, all that is involved is a little time working with the source material, the subsequent cloning of the branch and leaf copies is very simple. Mastering a new CD can be fairly laborious on a computer, but it is relatively simple on an audio device. I can master a CD from analog material in a pleasant evening's work. Most of the material we have treed comes from analog source material, so it would not have to be mastered from DAT. Our tree administrator has concerns about distribution of the tree material on CD-R. As I don't share those concerns, I will not try to capture the argument here, as I do not want to mis-state it. Since our tree administrator provides the source material, his wishes will of course be respected. I have made CD "remasters" of a couple of the branch tapes from prior trees and I am sure others have as well. So while CatGirl says CD's are "the wave of the future" I think they are actually the wave of the present, and I think Michael's post on this subject raises a valid question. best wishes, /Pat mailto:pmead@pacbell.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:32:41 +0100 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: Which of us is Joni?? Hi y'all I was reading an interview with Suzie Quattro in the Guardian the other week. Suzie enjoyed a brief spell in the 70s as a glamish Rock-n-roller in the UK with great hits such as Can the Can and Devilgate Drive... Anyway, during the interview, SQ admitted that she sometimes took part in her own discussion pages under an assumed name! And I was wondering (you can see where this is going can't you) whether any of us has ever suspected any of us of ACTUALLY BEING JONI in disguise... At first I wondered whether it might be Don Rowe (claiming not to have heard of Cher since 1972 ('Girly Guile') seemed very Joni-ish to me - *and* very admirable to boot) - but then maybe Ashara's absence is due to a lengthy recovery after touring with BD... Or is Colin REALLY a cat-lover from near Cambridge - or is he IN TRUTH a glamorous folk-jazz singer-songwriter from LA with beautiful long blonde hair (all the cat refs on TTT suddenly make sense - don't they??)!? What do other people think?? PX ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:44:10 +0200 From: "Tube" Subject: Fw: Joni's aura - -----Original Message----- From: Tube To: philipf@tinet.ie Date: 27 April 1999 23:20 Subject: Re: Joni's aura >I wonder would Joni be famous if she >>had the songs but not the stunning beauty, presence, personality >>and general aura. >She probably would, I'm not saying that an 'aura' is an absolute necessity >to get ahead in showbiz - after all, beauty's in the eye of the beholder >anyway. It just helps to have it though I think. > >>Alanis Morrisette looks a >>mess but sells millions. > >Yep but she has a real interesting face and a ton of hyperactive energy > >>I read somewhere that The Cranberries >>have sold 28 million records. To me it's scary to think that 28 >>million homes around the world contain records by a group >>who can't sing, can't play or write, who look crap and have no >>personality. Maybe it's better just to accept it as one of life's >>mysteries. > >Yeah, didn't they play Woodstock 94 as well? Weird! With bands I guess it >can be different. The right combination of band members makes a chemistry >all of it's own, and if they get a following of people who have caught their >live act and loved it, well things can quickly build from their, even if the >musicianship is non-existent. Punk proved that. > >That reminds me, I once saw Siouxsie and Budgie pushing a trolley of >groceries in a supermarket in London once - They looked like immortals. >DEFINITELY a combined aura there man! > >Tube > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:19:25 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Religion/private time paul tyrer wrote: > In fact, > that's exactly what the first Christian patriarchs were aiming at when they > began to put the New testament together (maybe you have holy ancestors??). > Sorry, I'm about to go into lecture mode now! These Christians believed > that the New holy book should serve as a fresh theological basis from which > individuals could deduce their own moral standards. Thus, the purity codes > of the O.T. - demanding particular standards from the Jewish people enforced > by Jewish tradition and religious practice - were utterly against the spirit > of the New. I have written about religion here before and am hesitant to keep doing so... I suspect the spirituality level of the JMDL has sparked because of Littleton, Colorado, and Joni's fans are precisely the type of caring people who respond. Without wanting to keep going on and on about religion, I must differ from Paul above, as a Christian. Nothing in our faith is to be seen as being superior to Judaism. Jesus is of the faith confessing in the Prime Covenant (not the "Old" Testament, with its pejorative implications). While I am well aware of the discussion of being free from the law, remember that we Christians are the branches grafted on to the tree of faith, in other words, of Judaism. I could go on at great length about the Levitical purity codes, etc., and their relationship to Christianity, but I won't... suffice to say, we as Christians must be people of the Prime Covenant as we understand our Christian Covenant (New Testament) and be very careful to not think that somehow the Jewish faith is an unfulfilled or lacking faith that we have the answers for; indeed, we need the revelation of Jesus to know the God that they already know. I am a Christian, and my faith is rooted in the faith of Jesus, which is rooted in the Prime Covenant. And now for something completely different: even clergy have private time with their spouse, and last night I put Hits, Misses, TI, C&S, and TTT in the cd player and put it on shuffle... and what a delightful sound track that was to an evening of love. I recall some discussion here as to what of Joni's songs were sexy... after last night, I would say, all of them! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V1 #25 ***************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe onlyjoni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?