From: owner-navy-soup-digest@smoe.org (navy-soup-digest) To: navy-soup-digest@smoe.org Subject: navy-soup-digest V5 #10 Reply-To: navy-soup@smoe.org Sender: owner-navy-soup-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-navy-soup-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk navy-soup-digest Monday, January 14 2002 Volume 05 : Number 010 In This Digest: ----------------- RE: Album release? ["Kelly Goodlad" ] RE: Album release? ["Kelly Goodlad" ] RE: Album release? ["M. Lucas" ] Re: Album release? [meredith ] Re: Album release? [JewelEDA21@aol.com] Re: Album release? [Songbird22@aol.com] Re: Album release? ["Jon Wes" ] Re: Album release? ["Elizabeth Weber" ] Re: BST: Ted's Wrecking Yard update - The Final Chapter? ["Julian C. Dunn] RE: Album release? ["Julian C. Dunn" ] clever conspiracy theory [Paul Schreiber ] Re: clever conspiracy theory ["Julian C. Dunn" ] Re: clever conspiracy theory [".-) Chopper One Eyed =W=illy =W=onka" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:21:29 -0500 From: "Kelly Goodlad" Subject: RE: Album release? >(I'm a cynic by nature, but never more than concerning major labels and >their "deals"... if Sarah isn't dropped before the album hits the streets, >thus ensuring the record never, ever sees the light of day, I'll be >***very*** surprised.) > What do you think they're waiting for? Why would they take her this far only to drop her? I mean, I can come up with a lot of reasons, but what do you guys think? I've been having trouble imagining how they would promote her, being so different and original and well, good. > >======================================= >Meredith Tarr >New Haven, CT USA >mailto:meth@smoe.org >http://www.smoe.org/meth >"an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma >gandhi >======================================= >Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series >http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:27:04 -0500 From: "Kelly Goodlad" Subject: RE: Album release? >meredith wrote: > > >Kevin responded: > > > >>The Warner site lists it for release on March 19th now. > > > >Ah, yes. Let the major-label screwage begin. :P :P :P > >er, continue. i think the album was done last july or something. > Poor Sarah...nothing like getting an awesome deal and then being messed with like this. Let's hope against hope that they don't put it off much longer! > >Paul > > shad 96c / uw cs 2001 > / mac activist / fumbler / eda / headliner / navy-souper >fan of / sophie b. / steve poltz / habs / bills / 49ers / > >"It's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission." > -- Cliff Stoll, "The Cuckoo's Egg" _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:32:00 -0800 From: "M. Lucas" Subject: RE: Album release? I knew one case where this awesome singer/songwriter, Karissa Noel, who wrote very radio-friendly material had her debut pushed back indefinitely, until she was dropped from the label. She said that her single didn't do as well as the execs had wanted. I asked if she could release her debut independently, or through another label, and she said that the major label she was on had the rights to her songs. So she couldn't release her album at all. If Sarah does get dropped, I hope she doesn't get totally screwed over like Karissa did. Mirah ************************************* "Kelly Goodlad" wrote: >Poor Sarah...nothing like getting an awesome deal and then being messed with >like this. Let's hope against hope that they don't put it off much longer! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:47:32 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: Album release? Hi, Tab responded: >Far be it for me to start defending the majors, but I think folks may be >forgetting that there could be myriad reasons for the delay - Sarah's >mentioned more than once that she doesn't want the album to come out at a >time when the label can't give it its full attention and support (e.g. at >a time when they've got other, 'bigger' releases planned, for instance) - >she's waited far too long for it to simply get lost in the shuffle (which, >obviously, could still very well happen). That's long been record company-speak for "we're going to push you back as far as we can until it's been too long, and then we'll either force you to make a completely new album or drop you altogether". This happened to Jewel -- the real reason why there was such a gap between _Pieces of You_ and her next album wasn't because she didn't have any material: she had a second album all ready to go and in the can. Atlantic decided they didn't want to release it, instead they wanted to milk absolutely everything they could out of the success of "Who Will Save Your Soul" and "You Were Meant For Me". By the time they were done, they decided they didn't like what she'd done and made her go and do it again. That album, and the songs on it will never see the light of day. >So, yeah, it's been ages since the album's been done and ready to go, but >if extra time means that the label is willing to step up to the plate and >ensure that the album gets a proper push, then I for one welcome that. I desperately hope this will be the exception, and they really are pushing it back with the best of intentions, but history teaches us not to get our hopes up. Kelly inquired: >What do you think they're waiting for? Why would they take her this far >only to drop her? I mean, I can come up with a lot of reasons, but what >do you guys think? I've been having trouble imagining how they would >promote her, being so different and original and well, good. I shudder to think how they might want to promote her, in this age of Britney and Christina. Mirah added: >I knew one case where this awesome singer/songwriter, Karissa Noel, who >wrote very radio-friendly material had her debut pushed back indefinitely, >until she was dropped from the label. She said that her single didn't do as >well as the execs had wanted. > >I asked if she could release her debut independently, or through another >label, and she said that the major label she was on had the rights to her >songs. So she couldn't release her album at all. This is what happens. Just one example of many I could list: Brenda Kahn had two albums released by a subsidiary of Sony, and her third was in the can and ready for release. She had just gotten back from her first cross-country tour, and then was informed that she had been dropped -- not only that, but she had to pay back the money the label had paid for her tour, and on top of *that*, the label owned the rights to her work so not only would her new album not be released, but she couldn't sell any of her old albums any more, either!! She literally had to steal a copy of her third album from a closet on her way out the building, which she made copies of and sold at shows for years after, to help pay back the $15,000 she owed the record company. Signing a major label contract almost always equals selling your soul. You no longer own the rights to your own work - the label does. If you put out an album independently in the past and license it to the label for re-release, if/when you get dropped, you no longer can do anything with that old album either. It is *very* rare for an artist to keep the rights to their own work. They have to be a pretty big name with huge sales figures in their past to have enough clout to do that, and even then sometimes it doesn't happen (see the period when Prince changed his name to -- that was a record company contract issue too). Jane Siberry still can't offer most of her older titles for sale on her web site because Warner Bros. owns them and refuses to give the rights to her, even though the titles are getting deleted one by one, so it's not like they're going to be making any more money off them anyway. The only story like this I've ever heard with a happy ending was that of my favorite band, The Nields. They were signed to a subsidiary of Mercury that re-released their album _Gotta Get Over Greta_. Shortly before their new album was supposed to come out, that subsidiary went under. All the artists on it were suddenly out in the cold, yet Mercury still owned the rights to their recordings. The Nields' contract had signed over the rights to their other previous releases as well, with the thought that they too would be re-released someday. So there they were, with no new album and no way to sell copies of their older albums to make money. Nerissa Nields, the band's main songwriter made one last-ditch attempt, by writing a heartfelt letter to the president of the company explaining just what this loss meant to them, and why they felt they should get their masters back. Unbelievably, the president was so moved by her letter that he called her and said "You win. You can have your masters back." (File under "miracle" and move on.) >If Sarah does get dropped, I hope she doesn't get totally screwed >over like Karissa did. Again, it's my fervent hope that Sarah doesn't get screwed, and Atlantic Records will do everything they can to make her a million-selling success ... but the odds are definitely stacked against her. ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "an eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" -- mahatma gandhi ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:58:02 EST From: JewelEDA21@aol.com Subject: Re: Album release? In a message dated 1/14/02 6:51:57 AM, meth@smoe.org writes: << That [Jewel's "Fitz Creek Store" as it were"] album, and the songs on it will never see the light of day. >> actually all that material has seenthe light of day, just not the light of day shining down from lights in a record store. But all that material is accesible, with 3 songs from that CD on her new one, "This Way". Furthermore, 2 songs from the scrapped 2nd album have been released on singles and one other song was released on the live Poetry/Song EP from Circuit City. Anyways just correcting facts. peace, seb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 18:48:50 EST From: Songbird22@aol.com Subject: Re: Album release? Meth writes: > re-release, if/when you get dropped, you no longer can do anything with > that old album either. It is *very* rare for an artist to keep the rights > to their own work. They have to be a pretty big name with huge sales > figures in their past to have enough clout to do that, and even then > sometimes it doesn't happen (see the period when Prince changed his name to > -- that was a record company contract issue too). The same thing just happened to Patty Griffin (who was on A&M, and is now on ATO Records, which is Dave Matthews new label) and she can never release the album she did for A&M or the songs that were on it (one of which, "Little God," is one of my favorites of hers :( ).... They pushed the release of her album back continually and it never saw the light of day... For any Patty fans out there, she did a whole new album called "1000 Kisses" and it'll be out on ATO on April 9th. Jess www.jessicaweiser.com | www.aftersilence.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 18:52:49 -0600 From: "Jon Wes" Subject: Re: Album release? I can understand people getting nervous, but the deal Sarah has with Atlantic seems pretty unique to me. From what I understand, they let her release an album (Blue Parade) on her own before she started work on her upcoming album. It seems to me if they were willing to make such a deal then they REALLY want her and thinks she's talented. Now, barring any major shake-ups in personnel at Atlantic or some mega-merger I think it's pretty safe to say it will be released. Now what kind of promotion it gets... that's anyone's guess. I honestly don't know how an artist is supposed to get noticed in the mainstream these days if they don't fit into the narrow-minded view of radio programmers and their phone polls based on 10 second audio clips. Think about the last year - how many major new artists were introduced in 2001? Now think about how many of them have had a successful follow-up hit. The ONLY artist that comes to mind is Nelly Furtado, though Turn Off the Light wasn't anywhere near as big as I'm Like A Bird. Also, an artist that has enough resources COULD conceivably get an album back from a record company. Aimee Mann did it, but the problem is the artist has to BUY back the masters. I shudder to think how much that would cost. Of course, there's always those nice stories like Lorrena McKennit who started her own record company. She became so successful she got to sign a cushy distribution deal with Sony so that she retained the rights to her work but got national exposure. Jon _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:16:13 -0500 From: "Elizabeth Weber" Subject: Re: Album release? >release an album (Blue Parade) on her own before she started work on her >upcoming album. It seems to me if they were willing to make such a deal >then >they REALLY want her and thinks she's talented. the face of popular music has shifted since then (wasn't Lilith Fair rather popular at that time?). and Atlantic is seemingly going in a completely different direction (see below). >Now, barring any major shake-ups in personnel at Atlantic or some >mega-merger I think it's pretty safe to say it will be released. There has already been an executive shake-up at the label. Artists that have recently been dropped by or left Atlantic: Tori Amos Poe Collective Soul Rod Stewart Sinead O'Connor Anita Baker elizabeth _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:47:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Julian C. Dunn" Subject: Re: BST: Ted's Wrecking Yard update - The Final Chapter? On 12-Jan-2002 Tab Siddiqui wrote: > The term 'just desserts' seems to apply here. I'm normally not one to gloat > , but there's some comfort to us Ted's regulars that we won't have > to see our beloved haunt taken over after all. Okay, so we've still lost a > great club, but there'll be no neon palms to add insult to injury. ;) Well, if Tab isn't one to gloat, I certainly am; although we're not back where we were before this whole debacle started, at least Yvonne has a gig booking shows at Rancho Relaxo (although that venue is less than optimal) and Dan Burke gets his ass kicked, deservedly. Still, things aren't ever going to be the same; judging by the fact that Ted's was operating in a grey zone regulatory-wise, it's unlikely that even if Ted was to get the lease back on the place we'd see a live music club there again. Still, it's amusing to see Dan is now saddled with a five-year lease on the building (that he didn't deserve in the first place), and it will be interesting to see how he's going to extricate himself from that. I wouldn't be surprised if there are further developments. The saga continues... - - Julian [ Julian C. Dunn * ] [ WWW: http://www.aquezada.com/staff/julian/ * PGP: 0xFDC205B9 ] [ "There is a world outside of this room, and when you meet it, ] [ promise me you won't meet it with a gun." -- 10,000 Maniacs ] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:59:34 -0500 (EST) From: "Julian C. Dunn" Subject: RE: Album release? On 13-Jan-2002 Kelly Goodlad wrote: > What do you think they're waiting for? Why would they take her this far > only to drop her? I mean, I can come up with a lot of reasons, but what do > you guys think? I've been having trouble imagining how they would promote > her, being so different and original and well, good. My feeling has always been that the EP was a marketing test for them; release an EP because it's cheaper (most of the material was already recorded), see how it does, and if it doesn't sell well, kill the full-length by neglect (or by other means, including delaying it indefinitely). Admittedly, the material on the EP would encourage only existing fans to purchase it (in addition to its total lack of promotion), but perhaps they were trying to use it to estimate the size of the existing fan base before deciding whether to release the full-length. Yes, I'm aware that it's a stupid marketing ploy and there are so many things wrong with it. It may come as a surprise to many, but there are lots of industries in which completed (or nearly completed) products are never released because of prior marketing fuck-ups, political reasons, or other. I know, I worked for a company where we had a product pretty much ready to ship and it was killed by higher-ups (leading to a mass exodus of employees, but that's another story.) It's only distressing in Sarah's case because we are fans of her music and if the product isn't released those tunes will never see the light of day, but such is life. - - Julian [ Julian C. Dunn * ] [ WWW: http://www.aquezada.com/staff/julian/ * PGP: 0xFDC205B9 ] [ "There is a world outside of this room, and when you meet it, ] [ promise me you won't meet it with a gun." -- 10,000 Maniacs ] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:07:41 -0800 From: Paul Schreiber Subject: clever conspiracy theory Okay, imagine this: you're a major record label. you spot some promising young talent. while she doesn't fit in with the current style of popular music, you worry that one of your competitors might snap her up. you know, they might have the guts to do something unconventional. so what do you do? sign her anyway. bury the album. due to contractual obligations, she can't creat another album elsewhere. why, if that were true it could spark an antitrust investigation. :) Paul shad 96c / uw cs 2001 / mac activist / fumbler / eda / headliner / navy-souper fan of / sophie b. / steve poltz / habs / bills / 49ers / "Some questions are logically nonsensical because the querent thinks they know more than they do. A lot of these have the form "How do I use X to accomplish Y?" There's nothing wrong with this, except that sometimes X is a chocolate-covered banana and Y is the integration of European currency systems." -- Mark-Jason Dominus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 22:29:22 -0500 (EST) From: "Julian C. Dunn" Subject: Re: clever conspiracy theory On 14-Jan-2002 Paul Schreiber wrote: > Okay, imagine this: you're a major record label. you spot some promising > young talent. while she doesn't fit in with the current style of popular > music, you worry that one of your competitors might snap her up. > > you know, they might have the guts to do something unconventional. > > so what do you do? sign her anyway. bury the album. due to contractual > obligations, she can't creat another album elsewhere. > > why, if that were true it could spark an antitrust investigation. :) I don't think that's the scenario anyone's envisioning here... more likely is that Atlantic signed Sarah on a whim/dare/risk-taking venture, but various circumstances in the intervening time have made it uneconomical (read as: not they would lose money but they'd not be making as much as they want to) to release the album. I mean, the current state of the economy has got to have something to do with it. So they put off releasing the album until things "get better". But eventually they're going to get sick of sitting on it. On the other hand, your scenario, with a few modifications, is what I suspect a lot of labels have done; they gamble on an artist in order to keep them away from the competitors, and even if they lose and s/he doesn't pan out, they don't lose a lot of money. - - Julian [ Julian C. Dunn * ] [ WWW: http://www.aquezada.com/staff/julian/ * PGP: 0xFDC205B9 ] [ "There is a world outside of this room, and when you meet it, ] [ promise me you won't meet it with a gun." -- 10,000 Maniacs ] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 22:41:25 -0500 (EST) From: ".-) Chopper One Eyed =W=illy =W=onka" Subject: Re: clever conspiracy theory i think you are all jumping to conclusions far to quickly about all of this. release dates get pushed back all the time. it doesnt matter if you are sarah slean, weezer, p. diddy, or the dixie chicks. just because her release date was pushed back about a month does not mean atlantic is dumping her or is scamming her out of the rights to her music. the fact that there even IS a release date is the most promising aspect of this whole scenario. later..... ************************************************************************ * ok * * bye bye * * steve-o-reeno * * ~spiderman~ * * ~superstud~ * * ~the tell-tale-hearted man~ * * Steve - The Rockin' Guitar Guy * * http://listen.to/FMGreen * * smlopez@naz.edu * ************************************************************************ * "If you can't keep it clean, keep it green." * * FMGreen Online * * http://listen.to/FMGreen * ************************************************************************ * "i'm a music major, i dont have time to deal with your crap." ----me * ************************************************************************ * "grammar sucks!" ----melissa & me * ************************************************************************ * "a composer is a guy who goes around forcing his will on * * unsuspecting air molecules, often with the assistance * * of unsuspecting musicians." ----frank zappa * ************************************************************************ * "farewell, and may the forces of evil become confused on the way to * * your home." ----george carlin * ************************************************************************ * "reverb is bad for the kids." ----matt sharp * ************************************************************************ * "nothin's cool nothin' matters...." * * ----john davis (superdrag) * ************************************************************************ * "it will be tough, but i'm invincible: i'm wearing a weezer shirt" * * ----rhiannon * ************************************************************************ * "i'll bring home the turkey if you bring home the bacon!" * * ----rivers cuomo * * * * RRRR O CC K K * * R R O O C K K * * R R O O C K K * * RRR O O C KK * * R R O O C K K * * R R O O C K K * * R R O CC K K * * * * \\\\\\\\\\\\\\ ////////////// * * \ \ / / * * \ \ / / * * \ \ / / * * \\\\\\\\\\\\ \ / //////////// * * \ \ /\ / / * * \ \ / \ / / * * \ \/ /\ \/ / * * \ / \ / * * \/ \/ * * * * M M U U SSSS IIIIIII CC * * MM MM U U S I C * * M M M M U U S I C * * M M M U U SS I C * * M M U U S I C * * M M U U S I C * * M M UUU SSSS IIIIIII CC * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:32:51 -0500 From: "Kelly Goodlad" Subject: Re: Album release? > > re-release, if/when you get dropped, you no longer can do anything with >that old album either. It is *very* rare for an artist to keep the rights >to their own work. The same thing happened with Juliana Hatfield and the album "God's Foot". I think it was some of her best work, but it never saw the light of day due to label issues. This would have been the follow up album to "Only Everything" on Atlantic/Mammoth. I really really hope this doesn't happen to Sarah. I mean, she has tons of amazing songs besides the ones on the album, but it would suck if tunes like "Duncan" and "Drastic Measures" weren't released. Keep your fingers crossed they don't give up on her before she's even had her chance. They have to be a pretty big name with huge sales > > figures in their past to have enough clout to do that, and even then > > sometimes it doesn't happen (see the period when Prince changed his >name >to > > -- that was a record company contract issue too). > >The same thing just happened to Patty Griffin (who was on A&M, and is now >on >ATO Records, which is Dave Matthews new label) and she can never release >the >album she did for A&M or the songs that were on it (one of which, "Little >God," is one of my favorites of hers :( ).... They pushed the release of >her >album back continually and it never saw the light of day... > >For any Patty fans out there, she did a whole new album called "1000 >Kisses" >and it'll be out on ATO on April 9th. > >Jess > >www.jessicaweiser.com | www.aftersilence.net _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ End of navy-soup-digest V5 #10 ******************************