From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V8 #39 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.pattygriffin.net/PattyInConcertDB.php * OR * go to http://www.atorecords.com * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V8 #___ gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. * Also, PLEASE do not quote an entire digest when you reply to the * list. Edit out anything you are not referring to. mad-mission-digest Friday, February 27 2004 Volume 08 : Number 039 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: MM: Politics and Art ["Willms, Gregory" ] Re: MM: Politics and Art ["Ira Post" ] MM: Politics and Art ["Ira Post" ] Re: MM: Politics and Art ["Bonnie Lombard" ] Re: MM: Re: Politics and Art [ShmephSasso@aol.com] MM: RE: Politics and Art ["April Fritz" ] RE: MM: Politics and Art ["April Fritz" ] MM: Jewel/Matrix/Song interps ["McGuire, John" ] MM: RE: Jewel/Matrix/Song interps ["Willms, Gregory" ] Re: MM: RE: Politics and Art [Jon Crouse ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:56:31 -0600 From: "Willms, Gregory" Subject: RE: MM: Politics and Art The fact of the matter is, there are two topics that will always create discussion/controversy... and those two topics are religion and politics. There are some who believe that politics should be left out of art entirely. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I do believe (as do many others) that there's a fine line between expressing your political views and being overbearing (a la U2 and/or Coldplay). There comes a point when the message overpowers the art and the art suffers because of it. That's when I lose interest. I think the music starts to become difficult to listen to, it becomes a chore. I would never accuse Patty of falling into this category, even if her new album does have a political tone. She's not so heavy-handed that anyone would feel weighed down by listening to it. I guess it all boils down to the old adage... everything in moderation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:09:37 -0500 From: "Ira Post" Subject: Re: MM: Politics and Art Well said, Gregory. There's a fine line between legitimate artistic expression and pushing a specific political agenda. Patty doesn't cross that line. Ira ----- Original Message ----- From: Willms, Gregory To: Charles Ott ; Rach2414@aol.com ; ken@kensonger.com ; mad-mission@smoe.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 9:56 AM Subject: RE: MM: Politics and Art The fact of the matter is, there are two topics that will always create discussion/controversy... and those two topics are religion and politics. There are some who believe that politics should be left out of art entirely. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I do believe (as do many others) that there's a fine line between expressing your political views and being overbearing (a la U2 and/or Coldplay). There comes a point when the message overpowers the art and the art suffers because of it. That's when I lose interest. I think the music starts to become difficult to listen to, it becomes a chore. I would never accuse Patty of falling into this category, even if her new album does have a political tone. She's not so heavy-handed that anyone would feel weighed down by listening to it. I guess it all boils down to the old adage... everything in moderation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:17:16 -0500 From: "Ira Post" Subject: MM: Politics and Art As a singer, Patty reminds me most of Marc Chagall - the painter. She seems to portraying dreams of thoughts rather than the thoughts themselves. April, give me a break. You should have been around in the sixties. Valid artistic expression requires an artist to be open and honest and say what she or he actually feels. If you want canned music listen to top 40 trash. Ira ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:41:02 -0500 From: "Bonnie Lombard" Subject: Re: MM: Politics and Art The music is about exactly what April THINKS it's about- and doesn't that say a whole lot more about April than it does about Patty? Bonnie - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed Marketplace. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:31:18 EST From: ShmephSasso@aol.com Subject: Re: MM: Re: Politics and Art THANK-you - I'm more upset that so many of you seem to have heard the new album than about it's content. How have you been able to do so? Steph ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:32:12 -0800 From: "April Fritz" Subject: MM: RE: Politics and Art Dear Ira, Before resuming my usual lurker status I just want to say that your attack about listening to Top 40 Music seems unwarranted. All I mean to say is that I wish that artists would not get into politics. It alienates some of their fans. I didn't say that they couldn't do it or that it should be banned. I just said that I wish they wouldn't. I think that I have the "right" to say that or feel that, don't I? I also want to say that while I would find it quite enjoyable to have a debate about whether or not peace is possible without the possibility of war I am aware of the fact that those types of discussions are forbidden on this list so I have not taken anyone's bait and delved into those territories. It is out of respect for the rules of this list and I assure you that this has not been easy. The people on this site have turned me onto some great music and for that I am grateful. In the same spirit I would like to turn you on to a great writer. If anyone is interested in educating themselves on a perspective that they may not hold there is a very eloquent writer on the topic. I encourage you to give him a read. His name is Victor Davis Hanson. Here is a link to his most recent article. http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200402270800.asp Peace and Prosperity to you all, April - -----Original Message----- From: owner-mad-mission@smoe.org [mailto:owner-mad-mission@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Ira Post Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 7:17 AM To: mad mission (mad mission) Subject: MM: Politics and Art As a singer, Patty reminds me most of Marc Chagall - the painter. She seems to portraying dreams of thoughts rather than the thoughts themselves. April, give me a break. You should have been around in the sixties. Valid artistic expression requires an artist to be open and honest and say what she or he actually feels. If you want canned music listen to top 40 trash. Ira ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:42:52 -0800 From: "April Fritz" Subject: RE: MM: Politics and Art Easy Ken, I didn't say it was artistically invalid, at least I don't think I did. I just said I wish she wouldn't go there. Why so much venom? - -----Original Message----- From: Ken Songer [mailto:ken@kensonger.com] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 12:51 AM To: Roy Larsen; april@aprilville.com; mad-mission@smoe.org Subject: RE: MM: Politics and Art You were right on target, Roy. Aside from the fact that some of the finest and most lasting musical expression of the past sixty years has dealt squarely with politics and war, it's self- absorbed to think valid artistic expressions are produced with the viewer's appetites in mind. Perhaps this album isn't written with you in mind, April - but if it's honest, than it's sure to speak to someone else. To say it's artistically invalid work because it wasn't crafted to delight your topical fancy is not reasonable criticism. Any respectable artist would tell you to sod off. On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:37:01 -0800, Roy Larsen wrote > "....there is sadly no possibility > of "interesting discussion" > (as you put it) with you". > > Sadly April, it appears not....... > > Peace (if that's not too political) > Roy > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "April Fritz" > To: "'Roy Larsen'" , > Subject: RE: MM: Politics and Art > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:55:07 -0800 > > Roy - if you cannot see the difference between the lyrics to "As Cold as it > Gets" and "Tony" or "Poor Man's House" then there is sadly no possibility of > "interesting discussion" (as you put it) with you. Perhaps you mis-spoke. > If the song were about the "human condition" of war that would be one thing > but it seems to me to be more of an attack on one individual. > > For the record, I am exposed to distasteful ideas and emotions on a daily > basis. The silliness of Patty's lyric only saddens me. I think it is > beneath her. Hopefully the whole album will not be this trite. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roy Larsen [mailto:roy_larsen@hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 6:37 PM > To: april@aprilville.com; mad-mission@smoe.org > Subject: RE: MM: Politics and Art > > I would suggest that the whole purpose of art is to evoke emotions. Those > emotions could be associated with personal relationships, such as finding or > > losing love, as well as the human condition, such as poverty, war, and > injustice. Poor Man's House, Shells, and Tony would be classic examples > from Patty on the human condition. And of course, the problems, causes, and > > solutions to the human condition are by their nature political. > > It's true that you can't debate with a painting, or a song, or a sculpture, > but art can certainly spur a lot of interesting discussion between open > minded folks. I believe this is the reason good art exists. But I also > feel that for one to appreciate Art as an expression, one must be willing to > > be exposed to ideas and emotions that are distasteful. I would hope that a > few distasteful experiences with an artist would not invalidate his/her > whole body of work if it brought much more pleasure and comfort than not. > > Roy > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "April Fritz" > To: > Subject: MM: Politics and Art > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:51:23 -0800 > > I am so sad to hear that Patty's new album is political. I love Patty's > music and she has helped me get through many sad times. She was the first > person I was able to listen to after I lost my own record deal. For a year > afterward I couldn't even turn on the radio. One thing I love about her > music is that she makes it so personal that I find many universal truths in > her words and thus don't feel quite so alone. I'm not saying that artist > don't have a right to use their platform to speak their minds politically > it's just that for me politics is something that needs to be debated, to be > talked about. Listening to politics in music is like listening to a sermon > and if you don't agree with the premises there is nothing you can do but > turn the person off. Further, at least for me, it has the effect of > tainting the artists other work. I can't listen to them without thinking > about how much I disagree with their politics. This happened to me with > Kris Delmhorst. I refused to see her live show because I knew it would be > littered with attacks against what I believe in politically and > philosophically. I just wish with all my heart that these artists would > leave the politics aside so that we can enjoy their art and feel the human > connection with them. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-mad-mission@smoe.org [mailto:owner-mad-mission@smoe.org] On > Behalf Of Becca Jarry > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 4:09 PM > To: mad-mission@smoe.org > Subject: MM: As cold as it gets > > I just read the review for Impossible Dream on the ATO records site and sure > > enough it does mention some political flavor to the album. No doubt Patty > is speaking her mind through the music and this song is meant for Bush. > Pretty cool. > Becca > > _________________________________________________________________ > Say good-bye to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- free trial > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying Guide. > http://special.msn.com/home/firsthome.armx > > _________________________________________________________________ > Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage  4 plans to choose from! > http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ - -- Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:57:50 -0600 From: "McGuire, John" Subject: MM: Jewel/Matrix/Song interps There is no spoon! Cant a song just be a song? As a songwriter, a producer, a recording engineer, a music fan, and everything else, I am constantly amazed when I hear stories about how people interpret songs. Its about war. Its about love. Its about heartbreak. Its about how corporate America is ruining the world. What if the songwriter was staring at his or her coffeepot and saw a strange reflection, and that's where it all came from?? Maybe there is a message? Maybe there isnt? Maybe you are supposed to find your own message in it? Over on the Richard Shindell list, there was a loooooooong discussion about one single song, a song that had some pretty heavily veiled lyrics. Sure, there was a religious theme in there. Sure, there was a personal allegory in there. Sure, there was a human condition theme in there as well! And on and on it went. And there were the "well, I see your point, but what if this means this, and not that?" In the end, I don't think anyone other than Shindell himself will ever know exactly what it all meant! But it was fun trying to see who came up with the next great divination of a particular line of the song lyrics! I think its great to find your own meanings in songs or poems or anything, either your own, or someone else's. A little lively discussion is all good too! But lets not start with the slander and personal attacks. Nice to see some action on this list though!!! Woo-hoo! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:11:40 -0600 From: "Willms, Gregory" Subject: MM: RE: Jewel/Matrix/Song interps Now seems like an appropriate time to point out to everyone on the list the fact that Jewel's music is horrible. Thanks! P.S. If you been a member of this list for more than 10 months, you'll see the humor in that comment and realize that it's for humor's sake, not because I want to start a debate. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:31:57 -0800 (PST) From: Emily Kite Subject: MM: Simmer, people!! Musicians are not here to give us what we want to hear, they're here to express themselves and their place in the world. By a musician leaving out of their material something that meant something to them, whether it be politics or poverty or midgets, because of their audience's feedback, they would not be doing their 'job'. We want an open, raw expression of their minds and hearts, as long as it's not too political? Come on. How about some gratitude for them having the bravery to put it out there, and giving it to us to hear, no matter what the message is? Everyone is free to interpret, but I think we need to bring it back to basics for just a moment: Artists would be artists whether or not the audience was there to applaud (or in this case refuse to go to shows and renounce their devotion). Let's have some respect and gratitude for the fact that we all love an artist who isn't afraid to express herself; Let's remember that we love musicians for their MUSIC, not their message. FEEL THE LOVE! Emily Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:52:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jon Crouse Subject: Re: MM: RE: Politics and Art April, your struggle to respect the rules of the list is pretty evident and not what I would call successful. At any rate, I think most folks probably get your drift without having to consult the National Review. April Fritz wrote: Dear Ira, Before resuming my usual lurker status I just want to say that your attack about listening to Top 40 Music seems unwarranted. All I mean to say is that I wish that artists would not get into politics. It alienates some of their fans. I didn't say that they couldn't do it or that it should be banned. I just said that I wish they wouldn't. I think that I have the "right" to say that or feel that, don't I? I also want to say that while I would find it quite enjoyable to have a debate about whether or not peace is possible without the possibility of war I am aware of the fact that those types of discussions are forbidden on this list so I have not taken anyone's bait and delved into those territories. It is out of respect for the rules of this list and I assure you that this has not been easy. The people on this site have turned me onto some great music and for that I am grateful. In the same spirit I would like to turn you on to a great writer. If anyone is interested in educating themselves on a perspective that they may not hold there is a very eloquent writer on the topic. I encourage you to give him a read. His name is Victor Davis Hanson. Here is a link to his most recent article. http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200402270800.asp Peace and Prosperity to you all, April - -----Original Message----- From: owner-mad-mission@smoe.org [mailto:owner-mad-mission@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Ira Post Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 7:17 AM To: mad mission (mad mission) Subject: MM: Politics and Art As a singer, Patty reminds me most of Marc Chagall - the painter. She seems to portraying dreams of thoughts rather than the thoughts themselves. April, give me a break. You should have been around in the sixties. Valid artistic expression requires an artist to be open and honest and say what she or he actually feels. If you want canned music listen to top 40 trash. Ira Get better spam protection with Yahoo! 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