From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V8 #38 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.pattygriffin.net/PattyInConcertDB.php * OR * go to http://www.atorecords.com * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V8 #___ gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. * Also, PLEASE do not quote an entire digest when you reply to the * list. Edit out anything you are not referring to. mad-mission-digest Friday, February 27 2004 Volume 08 : Number 038 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: MM: Politics and Art ["hugues" ] MM: uh oh [Danalee7@comcast.net] RE: MM: Politics and Art ["Ken Songer" ] Re: MM: Politics and Art [Rach2414@aol.com] MM: the politics and the person [sharon G ] MM: MM Politics and Art [TimSharp63@aol.com] MM: RE: MM Politics and Art ["Kunkel, Robert G" ] MM: Cold As it Gets [Danalee7@comcast.net] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:56:04 +0100 From: "hugues" Subject: Re: MM: Politics and Art > The silliness of Patty's lyric only saddens me. I think it is > beneath her. Hopefully the whole album will not be this trite. You certainly realise that what you said here is a bit... dislikable? Hugues ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:19:52 +0000 From: Danalee7@comcast.net Subject: MM: uh oh I wrote my lyrics post that has been on my mind all week and went off to work this afternoon and just got home to find out I stirred you guys up again. I guess that is good- better than nothin' which is what this list has been doing since about the holidays. The new Cd is awesome- I love it- Patty's best so far IMHO and I love them all so far. It is not political, most of the songs are relationship songs or life story songs- just beautiful and soulfully done. So are the 2 what I consider to be political songs and she makes a strong statement for her position which is just for peace basically- she is not into war. Either am I after what my generation went through with Viet Nam and I hate seeing my children's generation go through it again. I appreciate Patty's lyrics about it- she is just expressing herself but she in this case speaks also for me. There is no attack on anyone, whoever she is singing about- she is hoping to see whoever recognize and regret what they have done. The song really touches me- I just had to share it- my friend opened my eyes to it- I had not gotten it until she did. Maybe we are all wrong- who really knows what a songwriter is thinking about really- it all becomes personal to the listeners' own experience anyway. Chill- you will love the Cd when you get it. Dana ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 03:50:58 -0500 From: "Ken Songer" Subject: RE: MM: Politics and Art You were right on target, Roy. Aside from the fact that some of the finest and most lasting musical expression of the past sixty years has dealt squarely with politics and war, it's self- absorbed to think valid artistic expressions are produced with the viewer's appetites in mind. Perhaps this album isn't written with you in mind, April - but if it's honest, than it's sure to speak to someone else. To say it's artistically invalid work because it wasn't crafted to delight your topical fancy is not reasonable criticism. Any respectable artist would tell you to sod off. On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:37:01 -0800, Roy Larsen wrote > "....there is sadly no possibility > of "interesting discussion" > (as you put it) with you". > > Sadly April, it appears not....... > > Peace (if that's not too political) > Roy > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "April Fritz" > To: "'Roy Larsen'" , > Subject: RE: MM: Politics and Art > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:55:07 -0800 > > Roy - if you cannot see the difference between the lyrics to "As Cold as it > Gets" and "Tony" or "Poor Man's House" then there is sadly no possibility of > "interesting discussion" (as you put it) with you. Perhaps you mis-spoke. > If the song were about the "human condition" of war that would be one thing > but it seems to me to be more of an attack on one individual. > > For the record, I am exposed to distasteful ideas and emotions on a daily > basis. The silliness of Patty's lyric only saddens me. I think it is > beneath her. Hopefully the whole album will not be this trite. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roy Larsen [mailto:roy_larsen@hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 6:37 PM > To: april@aprilville.com; mad-mission@smoe.org > Subject: RE: MM: Politics and Art > > I would suggest that the whole purpose of art is to evoke emotions. Those > emotions could be associated with personal relationships, such as finding or > > losing love, as well as the human condition, such as poverty, war, and > injustice. Poor Man's House, Shells, and Tony would be classic examples > from Patty on the human condition. And of course, the problems, causes, and > > solutions to the human condition are by their nature political. > > It's true that you can't debate with a painting, or a song, or a sculpture, > but art can certainly spur a lot of interesting discussion between open > minded folks. I believe this is the reason good art exists. But I also > feel that for one to appreciate Art as an expression, one must be willing to > > be exposed to ideas and emotions that are distasteful. I would hope that a > few distasteful experiences with an artist would not invalidate his/her > whole body of work if it brought much more pleasure and comfort than not. > > Roy > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "April Fritz" > To: > Subject: MM: Politics and Art > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:51:23 -0800 > > I am so sad to hear that Patty's new album is political. I love Patty's > music and she has helped me get through many sad times. She was the first > person I was able to listen to after I lost my own record deal. For a year > afterward I couldn't even turn on the radio. One thing I love about her > music is that she makes it so personal that I find many universal truths in > her words and thus don't feel quite so alone. I'm not saying that artist > don't have a right to use their platform to speak their minds politically > it's just that for me politics is something that needs to be debated, to be > talked about. Listening to politics in music is like listening to a sermon > and if you don't agree with the premises there is nothing you can do but > turn the person off. Further, at least for me, it has the effect of > tainting the artists other work. I can't listen to them without thinking > about how much I disagree with their politics. This happened to me with > Kris Delmhorst. I refused to see her live show because I knew it would be > littered with attacks against what I believe in politically and > philosophically. I just wish with all my heart that these artists would > leave the politics aside so that we can enjoy their art and feel the human > connection with them. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-mad-mission@smoe.org [mailto:owner-mad-mission@smoe.org] On > Behalf Of Becca Jarry > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 4:09 PM > To: mad-mission@smoe.org > Subject: MM: As cold as it gets > > I just read the review for Impossible Dream on the ATO records site and sure > > enough it does mention some political flavor to the album. No doubt Patty > is speaking her mind through the music and this song is meant for Bush. > Pretty cool. > Becca > > _________________________________________________________________ > Say good-bye to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- free trial > offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying Guide. > http://special.msn.com/home/firsthome.armx > > _________________________________________________________________ > Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage  4 plans to choose from! > http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ - -- Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:36:02 EST From: Rach2414@aol.com Subject: Re: MM: Politics and Art In a message dated 2/27/2004 2:58:25 AM Central Standard Time, ken@kensonger.com writes: > To say it's artistically invalid work because it wasn't crafted to delight > your topical fancy is not reasonable criticism. I totally agree. I also think that this whole discussion is a little flimsy because it is based on someone else's interpretation of the song, which may or may not be what Patty intended for the song to say. In an interview with Patty I recall her saying something about the fact that there are often many different stories/inpirations/references/people that manifest themselves in her songs. So perhaps half the song is political and the other is personal... but we don't (and probably won't ever) know! Either way, it's her opinion so obviously it's going to be present in her art. It's like Patty said one time (i am probably misquoting a bit so forgive me), "no matter what your politics are, whether you think everyone should be purple and eat ice cream everyday, you have right to express yourself!" (i apologize if this made little or no sense, or if it made anyone overly angry but it's late and i have a paper to write so i'm a bit loopy) - -rachel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:13:49 -0500 From: sharon G Subject: MM: the politics and the person If an artist writes what is true in their heart, then their view of the world, from their experiences, where they were raised, and enviroment are going to come thru in their music. There are artists whose beliefs are different than mine and I will never be able to grasp them or agree but that doesnt mean that they are not a brilliant songwriter.. I am thinking specifically about julie miller.. so much of julie's work is christian in nature.. I have to overlook many of her religious references in her lyrics. but that doesnt negate her as one of the best songwriters that i have heard... Recently Mary Chapin Carpenter was at a benefit and she addressed this topic.. She said whenever "she" mentions her political views, she receives emails slamming her for making her concert into a political event.. She doesnt answer the mail, not because she is a coward, because she doesnt have an answer.. so she warned the crowd that she wasnt going to answer their email... i think artists have a responsibility to use their art and forum to convey their views... Russell Simmons is right strict drug laws and he and Sean Combs are encouraging people to vote... Dylan did it, Joan Baez did it and still does... the stage is a powerful format.. I understand how april feels... she has a right not buy a ticket or buy a cd but she would be missing some wonderful music... if i didnt buy an artist because i didnt agree 1/2 of my cd collection would be empty... sharon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:09:11 EST From: TimSharp63@aol.com Subject: MM: MM Politics and Art Maybe it's about Jewel? Sorry, I just couldn't resist. Remember people that just because one or more of our listers interpreted it to be about Bush doesn't mean it is about Bush. Perhaps everyone should reserve comment until after they have made a determination of their own? Sometimes a banana is just a banana. Could it possibly be that it is not about any one individual at all? Maybe its about hatred or racism or poverty or war in general. No, I think I am sticking with Jewel. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:45:55 -0500 From: "Kunkel, Robert G" Subject: MM: RE: MM Politics and Art HA! =D Or maybe it's about Agent Smith (of the Matrix) and she fancies herself as Neo. Look at the repeated line from the first stanza: << I am the one who'll crawl through the wire. >> She says it all right there! "I am The One" (the capitalization was just missing) She'll "crawl through the wire" - i.e. get plugged into the Matrix. And there are references galore throughout the song as to the doings of Agent Smith and to the world of the Matrix! It's so obvious!!! Rob PS It's kind of funny/sad because I can actually see more references in the song that make sense in the context of The Matrix than I can in the context of George Bush. PPS On a more serious take, who's to say it's not about Milosevic or any other brutal dictator of our time? - -----Original Message----- From: TimSharp63@aol.com [mailto:TimSharp63@aol.com] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 8:09 AM To: mad-mission@smoe.org Subject: MM: MM Politics and Art Maybe it's about Jewel? Sorry, I just couldn't resist. Remember people that just because one or more of our listers interpreted it to be about Bush doesn't mean it is about Bush. Perhaps everyone should reserve comment until after they have made a determination of their own? Sometimes a banana is just a banana. Could it possibly be that it is not about any one individual at all? Maybe its about hatred or racism or poverty or war in general. No, I think I am sticking with Jewel. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 05:52:10 -0800 (PST) From: David T Subject: MM: Politics and Art (or "Not another Jewel discussion") Tim, That reply was a riot! BTW, where are all these people getting a hold of this song? DT - --- TimSharp63@aol.com wrote: > Maybe it's about Jewel? Sorry, I just couldn't > resist. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:12:18 +0000 From: "Charles Ott" Subject: Re: MM: Politics and Art Rachel and all in this discussion, This is a head shaker for me. Why in the world would a difference in opinion on anything at all affect your listening of great music??? That IS what art is all about, and honesty in art (which is so lacking in muzak today), that's what we are drawn to Patty for. It's her realness. NO MATTER what that song is about, if it's presented in a sensitive, unique way, well done artistically, if I connect to the heart in the artist, I'm there. I'm in it for the whole kit and kaboodle, I trust her choices, the ride, and the destination. Patty can take me where ever she wants and I'll close my eyes and just enjoy, or I will cry along with her or glimse a little corner of someone or something I've never seen or felt. It's about being real to me and I wouldn't want her, or any musical artist, any other way. Julie >From: Rach2414@aol.com >To: ken@kensonger.com, mad-mission@smoe.org >Subject: Re: MM: Politics and Art >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:36:02 EST > >In a message dated 2/27/2004 2:58:25 AM Central Standard Time, >ken@kensonger.com writes: > > > To say it's artistically invalid work because it wasn't crafted to delight > > your topical fancy is not reasonable criticism. > >I totally agree. I also think that this whole discussion is a little flimsy >because it is based on someone else's interpretation of the song, which may or >may not be what Patty intended for the song to say. In an interview with >Patty I recall her saying something about the fact that there are often many >different stories/inpirations/references/people that manifest themselves in her >songs. So perhaps half the song is political and the other is personal... but >we don't (and probably won't ever) know! Either way, it's her opinion so >obviously it's going to be present in her art. It's like Patty said one time (i am >probably misquoting a bit so forgive me), "no matter what your politics are, >whether you think everyone should be purple and eat ice cream everyday, you >have right to express yourself!" > >(i apologize if this made little or no sense, or if it made anyone overly >angry but it's late and i have a paper to write so i'm a bit loopy) >-rachel - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying Guide. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:48:28 +0000 From: Danalee7@comcast.net Subject: MM: Cold As it Gets A lot of Patty's songs are not about her own life and and they are crafted generally enough to allow for the listener's own life experience to fill it in. Maybe this song is from the eyes of a refugee survivor-( the millions of sad stories frozen in the mud, on the side of the road, that will never be told), a Palestinian bomber- -( crawl through the wire), an illegal immigrant, trying to make it into the US- about any political figure anywhere responsible for many ruined lives. Maybe it is about Saddam Hussein. Could be lots of interpretations. If it is going to get a lot of angry response, she probably isn't going to tell us, might not even sing it for us live. I hope she does- I love this song now. She does have a heart for other people whose lives are difficult, for sure. Her songs are not all self-centered self ananlysis. My interpretation still stands, means something to me. Maybe it is different for you. Can't wait for the tour announcements. I hope they don't collide with other plans I am making in May and June, Aug. Dana- back off to work this morning- tired. ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V8 #38 ********************************