From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V5 #185 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.quackquack.net/pattyg * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com * then click "tour" and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V4 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Wednesday, August 1 2001 Volume 05 : Number 185 Today's Subjects: ----------------- MM: digital out [mark_fitzgerald@keybank.com] MM: Re: Taping [BCiesemier@Celtic-Net.com] MM: Taping ["donhenn" ] MM: Atlanta ["donhenn" ] MM: greetings from a new fan ["Scheiner, Andy" ] MM: Taping ["Eric Southward" ] MM: Re: Taping ["amber bass-patterson" ] Re: MM: Taping [FlamingRed74@cs.com] Re: MM: Taping [Mooodeee@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 06:52:29 -0400 From: mark_fitzgerald@keybank.com Subject: MM: digital out When MD first came out, all the recorders had digital out. When they brought it to the consumer level, the RIAA (I think) made Sony take it away because they were all bent about the ability to go digital-digital to CD. There is still some pro gear that offers it. >Just a tech check here. When I was looking into a booting device i was told >that DAT's are nerfed so that they only have an analog out and not a digital >one so the result when burned to a CD (though the minidisk is better) is >dependent on an analogue signal which is the same quality a tape makes. >Anyone have a minidisk with a digital out? if they come out with those I'm >getting one!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 08:14:36 -0500 From: BCiesemier@Celtic-Net.com Subject: MM: Re: Taping I remember several months ago when someone posted about a Patty bootleg for sale on E-Bay. I thought Patty's management got involved in this to put a stop to it (which was successful), but maybe this is where Patty's recent concerns about taping stem from. Barbara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 12:44:18 -0400 From: "donhenn" Subject: MM: Taping MMers , Before I take on trying to write reviews for the shows , (which could take all day , or even longer) I'd like to add my comments on taping. The "very anti-taping" comment was a surprise to me also. I thought that Patty was more or less indifferent to it. The only time I ever talked to Patty was on the cruise last year , when I asked if I could videotape her performances. She said something about the label having the rights , & that was enough for me. I just wanted to go with her instinctive reaction , but she didn't seem offended , or personally against it , in spite of the fact that seemed put off b/c of me approaching her while she was eating. I have a hard time understanding why any artists would be against taping live shows unless they anticipate releasing them on CD. Those who tape & trade live shows , are among the artist's biggest fans , who circulate their music , & gain new fans for them. I think that the number of people who obtain boots so they don't have to pay for CDs , are negligible. As far as Patty , & other artists in a similar situation , I would think that they should encourage recording , as long as it's discreet , & doesn't distract from the performance. Since I've been on this list , I've seen many Patty fans rave about Rarities & LFML , which makes it more likely that they will stay with Patty's music , going to shows , & buying anything she releases. I often wonder why it seems that Patty isn't all that interested in promoting her music. She rarely has her CDs for sale at her shows , & the only time I saw a T-shirt for sale , was at a Chix show. My guess is that they talked her into it. But if Patty never makes it big , you won't see me complaining. That would mean the end of the shows like Cat's Cradle & Starr Hill , where I was within 10 feet of her while she was performing. I met an 18 year old , new fan of Patty's who thought her performance at Cat's Cradle was great , & by now , I'm sure , is even more hooked b/c I gave him a copy of LFML. He is also a RABID Dylan fan. When I told him that "Tomorrow Night" was a cover of a Dylan cover , he told me the name of the album it was on , & that it was cut # 9 . So I'll end with a Dylan quote that reminds me of Patty's (& Bob's) lyrics. And every one of them words rang true And glowed like burnin' coal Pouring off of every page Like it was written in my soul From me to you Bob Dylan "Tangled up in Blue" Don ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:44:51 -0400 From: "donhenn" Subject: MM: Atlanta MMers , Thanks to Paul's delightful review for saving me a lot of time. I loved the "obey me , black" comment. As he noted , between the picnic theme , the "loud- mouth yaps" , & the walking around , Chastain is not a music venue , it's a social venue. We were fortunate to catch the show at the tail end of a huge storm that was drenching the South , & Atlanta. There was a very hard rain that morning & afternoon , but not a drop fell during the show. I'm not sure where "Ten Million Miles" was in the set b/c I didn't know the name of it , & wrote down a few lyrics away from the set list , forgetting to mark the spot. My best guess is that it was right before "Mary". Set list: Carry Me Truth # 2 Poor Man's House Be Careful Chief Top of the World Ten Million Miles Mary w/Emmylou With Emmylou My Baby Needs a Shepherd One Big Love Met up with Tracey from the list & her friend Jeff , (Thanks for picking me up at my hotel) & we saw the show together. I just got a cell phone & wanted to stay for Emmylou , so they left , & I figured I had everything covered b/c I could call a cab. The first one said I was out of their service area , & the 2nd one never showed , so I had to walk a mile or two. Since we were in the nosebleed seats also , & the "loud-mouth yaps" were out in full force , I couldn't pick up on any subtleties , but one thing that wasn't subtle was the volume level of Doug's guitar on "Carry Me" , competing with , & occasionally eclipsing Patty's voice. I had the same problem at the end of "Top of the World" , & in general , thought that the volume level was too high during Patty's vocals. On the other hand , Doug's playing during "Be Careful" was soulful , in line with Patty's voice , & lifted the song. His addition to "Mary" was also excellent , & gave it that ethereal sound that Patty's voice gives it , & is even more apparent with the full band. "Chief" is near the bottom on my list of Patty songs , but Doug's melodies & playing lifted it up. There are no Patty songs that I dislike , but after hearing her great , live , soulful versions of "Twisted Road" , the raucous music on the soundtrack cut makes that come close. When Patty was doing "One Big Love" with Emmylou , I noticed her seeming to reach for more passion in her voice than flowed naturally , & not getting there. I see that often in artists , even among the best of them , but that was the first time I noticed it in Patty. I hoped it wasn't a precursor , & fortunately , it wasn't. She never came close during the 4 headline shows. Usually , I get the impression that she consciously subdues her own voice when she sings with others. The only other time I recall her voice sounding unrestrained while singing with someone else was when she & Emily did "Let Him Fly" during a Chix show , alternating verses. I'm really not a big fan of the Patty/Emmylou version of "One Big Love" b/c Emmylou takes the lion's share of the verses that I'm used to hearing out of Patty. On the other hand , "My Baby Needs a Shepherd" is an excellent song , & Emmylou does a great job on it , with Patty's voice adding a lot to it. The rest of Emmylou's set was up to her high standards , but I was hoping to hear "Bang the Drum Slowly" , a song that she wrote for her father , that I noticed the first time I saw her when Patty opened in Greensburg. Speaking of Greensburg , the first thing Emmylou said there , was that is was a treat to be on the same bill as Patty Griffin.When I saw them in Philly , she said that , after being in the business as long as she has , (20-25 years ?) & thinking she'd seen everything , somebody like Patty comes along , with such beauty & poetry in her music , & makes her wonder how she ever got along w/o it. So anyway , when Emmylou came on stage , I was waiting to see what she had to say about Patty. She was talking for quite awhile w/o mentioning her , & I starting to wonder if she was going to. Then she started saying how happy she was to be in Atlanta b/c it was a great music town , & that she was happy to be in Atlanta b/c she also went to a Braves game. "But the main reason I'm glad to be in Atlanta ( I knew it was coming) is b/c Patty Griffin is opening for me here". I know Paul told you that , but it was my longest note , & I didn't want to waste it. One more note that I just recalled. Emmylou did "Sweet Dreams" , & did a credible job on it. Taking on a Patsy Cline song is a daunting task for anyone , even for Patty. When I first heard Patty's version of "Crazy" I didn't like it at all. When you love a song for 40 years , different is bad. After awhile , Patty's voice helped it grow on me , & I convinced myself that it was as good as Patsy's. With more passage of time , retrospect is always more accurate than momentary , emotional perceptions , & Patsy is still safe. No one has ever done a cover of her songs that I like as well..Hopefully , the same will hold true for Patty. No one has even come close so far. Most of Patty's covers surpass the original. Well , I'm out of notes & memories , so it's time to go. I'm a little worried about getting the reviews done this week. If the Atlanta opening is this long , how long will the headline shows be ? Now where are my Cat's Cradle notes ? The farther I come The farther I fall Whatever I knew It was nothing at all Just making me small Smaller & smaller Patty Griffin & Jay Joyce "Blue Sky" Don ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:53:26 -0400 From: "Scheiner, Andy" Subject: MM: greetings from a new fan Hi All, I just joined MadMission today, and I thought I'd say Hi to everyone. I (along with my wife and six-year-old son) saw Patty live for the first time this past Saturday at Starr Hill in Charlottesville. It was an amazing experience (though I probably don't have to tell all of you folks that). By a fluke, I caught Patty on a Sessions at West 54th broadcast in Oct/Nov of last year. I say it was a fluke because: (a) the show aired at 11:30 PM on a Saturday night on our Charlottesville PBS station, and if I'm awake past 10PM, it's a *very* late night for me; and (2) I'd never seen nor heard Patty before so I wasn't at all knowledgeable about her, but just happened to be channel surfing when the show started. I loved the show, and my wife got me LWG and FR CD's for Xmas this past December. As with the Sessions at 54th show, I loved the CD's (particularly FR), but nothing I saw on Sessions or heard on the CD's prepared me for the show at Starr Hill. I was expecting a good show, of course, but, not only did it hugely exceed my expectations, but, in many ways, it exceeded any musical performance/event I've ever attended (which, at age 40, surprised me indeed; the only thing that I can equate it to was my first Springsteen show back in 1978, but when you're 17, it's not so surprising when you have an experience like that; it is when you're 39. Also, when I saw that Bruce show, it was from a relatively long distance with 19,000 other folks at the Capital Centre, not from 10 feet away like I was at the Patty show; didn't have cool fan email lists back then either). News items from the show (although, these have probably already appeared on the list): (1) she mentioned that she and Doug Lancio (and others, perhaps?) are working on her next CD release. Did not mention on what label the CD would be, however. (2) she performed a few new songs that she mentioned she had written within the past few days/weeks (presumably, to be included on the new CD), "Florida", "Chief", and "10 Million Miles" were the ones that I recall. I'm looking forward to hearing the news on MM, and, if by chance, any of you have any Patty recordings (video or audio) other than LWG and FR that you'd be willing to share, that would be wonderful, and I'd be most grateful. - Andy Scheiner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:25:08 +1100 From: "Eric Southward" Subject: MM: Taping No mattter the intent behind taping a show or what you plan to do with it (personal use), it does not matter that you don't plan to make a profit. A musical performance is just as much a copyrighted event as writing a song or recording one to a CD. There are about 7 categories of copyrighted events. Most of these an artist can license or sell to someone else for money. One of the them is the right to perform a song. You as a member of the audience do not have a right to tape a performance without a) permission of the copyright holder (not necessarily the artist) or b) paying a royalty to the copyright holder. Most people think (wrongly) that just because they don't intend to sell or make a profit, that makes it ok to record an artist's show. When VCR's first came out, the act of taping a show off of the tv was considered a copyright infringment. And it truthfully was. It wasn't until after a Supreme Court decision allowing private owners to tape shows that we could do so without violating copyrights. Your purchase of a CD allows you the right to make as many copies as you want for your own personal use. However, it doesn't allow you to make copies of that copy or literally, to give that copy away to a friend. The act of handing a copied CD to a friend is literally a copright violation. I just wanted to clear the facts. Many people have a misconception about whether or not a copyright violation ocurrs. A lot of people think that it is only a violation if they intend to sell or distribute it make money from it. But it isn't what you intend to do with the recording that determines if it's a violation or not, it is literally the pure act of making that recording that violates copyright. Eric Southward Indianapolis, IN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:51:37 -0500 From: "amber bass-patterson" Subject: MM: Re: Taping - ----- Original Message ----- From: "donhenn" > I often wonder why it seems that Patty isn't all that interested in promoting her music. i've wondred about this too. mostly i can't understand why she so rarely performs here in austin. lots of austin artists who are known nationally play at least once a month here. she hasn't played a full set since last summer, and show that wasn't advertised. her name is never mentioned in articles about the local music scene and i was more than surprised to hear she had been on the radio recently. yet even that interview, or so i heard, was to promote another musician. i can understand an artist wanting to live a "regular" life while at home, but i can't figure out why she remains so absent in such a thriving music community. any thoughts? amber "Through Movement We Find Health" The Nia Technique ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:32:49 EDT From: FlamingRed74@cs.com Subject: Re: MM: Taping Eric said: >. A >musical performance is just as much a copyrighted event as writing a song or >recording one to a CD. There are about 7 categories of copyrighted events. >Most of these an artist can license or sell to someone else for money. One >of the them is the right to perform a song.>> So you're saying that anyone who plays a cover song in concert has to ask the copyright holder to perform the song? I've never heard of such a thing! There are thousands upon thousands of cover bands out there who have certainly not asked all those different artists for permission to perform their song(s) live. I've never heard of a concert being "copyrighted material" either. Wouldn't you have to submit a recording of each and every concert and pay for it to be copyrighted? If an artist comes out and says "don't record my shows" that's one thing, & since you're paying to be in their audience then you simply follow their (or the venues) rules. Otherwise, if an artist is indifferent to it I can't see how you are infringing on any "copyright" rules. Dave Just curious. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 18:04:59 EDT From: Mooodeee@aol.com Subject: Re: MM: Taping Eric sed: <> You're absolutely right. But is it punishable? a fine? maybe the royalty fee of $0.0755 a song or $1.45 a minute for every song over 5 minutes in length? How about if the song and that version of the song have never actually been copyrighted nor any clearance obtained from the artist's performing rights organization as with most of LFML? How are you in violation of the copyright law when the material has never been copyrighted? I don't mean to be complicated. As an infrequent bootlegger and a trader, I honestly would be interested to know what enforceable consequences there may be to such a copyright violation on a personal-use basis. The presumed harm is negligible, so I imagine is the consequence. How would you go about successfully enforcing that punishment against a fan trading bootlegs for personal use at no profit? (other than catching them in the act and stomping on their sad little $5 sony walkman with a mic?) I am VERY pro-bootlegging for very deep personal reasons. Speaking for myself, I think record producers rarely ever capture the raw, genuine emotion that comes from a live performance in front of a deeply enthralled audience. The energy and emotion reflected from a big, living breathing room full of people who are connected to the sounds you are making right in front of them has a magic that can rarely ever be captured standing all by yourself in a bathroom-sized studio looking at the engineer and producer in the big window wearing headphones perched in front of a giant mic that can pick up the sound of your clothes moving. Full rock band, solo acoustic or even a capella---if given the opportunity, I will ALWAYS buy a live cd over an uncaptured, over-layered, cold, unemotional, un-ALIVE rendition of the same song. To me, all the extra layers upon layers of noises and tracks played on top of each other instead of WITH each other in the same room at the same time en conspirare to me is merely an artistic collage made to grab your attention---in most cases, because the song itself probably doesn't. There are many exceptions, but for me personally, I only enjoy production if it is complimentary, not supplimentary. I wouldn't know where to begin at explaining the difference. I guess your mileage may vary. In the case of LFML, I believe it wouldn't need to exist at all if Patty made and sold clean recordings of these songs, live or otherwise. I think it exists as a matter of survival, if not for preservation of quality songwriting that is being abandoned by it's mama, if not just for posterity's sake. Like most of you, I will buy every Patty CD put in front of me, and talk every person I've met into doing the same. The whole label thing just makes matters worse because it means it could be at least another year before our appetites for new Patty get whetted. Bootlegs and live recordings help me get my fix of pure raw live emotional experiences. As the word "record" implies, it is a record of an event, a capturing of a moment. I think sometimes that spirit is lost or underappreciated. Does anybody know if Patty might be interested in releasing a live CD? Mimi ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V5 #185 *********************************