From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V3 #152 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.spectra.net/~ducksoup/pattyg/patttyg.htm * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com * then click "tour" and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Thursday, May 20 1999 Volume 03 : Number 152 Today's Subjects: ----------------- MM: RE: Does it matter if Tony Was Gay or a Geek? ["Laine Proctor" ] RE: MM: what do you all think this really means... ["Gould, Rachel L." ] MM: Tony w/etymology [hilah@ix.netcom.com] Re: MM: confused!! [Jindh@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:43:51 -0700 From: "Laine Proctor" Subject: MM: RE: Does it matter if Tony Was Gay or a Geek? No it doesn't, that's an excellent point (and kinda what I was trying to get around to in my post). I just always assumed he was because one of my best friends is gay and this song could have literally been written about him. (He came very close to killing himself AND to being killed or permanently damaged by other kids in high school). And he is just the most striking example among many people I know who went through similar things. And you are absolutely right, many people don't realize they are gay or identify as gay in high school. Especially if they're raised Catholic. :-D Ha Ha. Anyway, maybe it doesn't matter if Tony is gay, but I would still consider the song to be a strong statement against oppression. And for the record, I think this discussion has been extremely interesting and thought provoking (especially the boy crotch girl crotch part) :-). Patty's songs are so complex - each one is a gift that keeps on giving! Patty is a Goddess! Laine >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-mad-mission@smoe.org [mailto:owner-mad-mission@smoe.org]On >Behalf Of Han >Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 8:17 AM >To: mad-mission@smoe.org >Subject: MM: Does it matter if Tony Was Gay or a Geek? > > >Does it really matter what Tony was? Perhaps Tony was too young to even >know himself. Maybe he was gay, maybe he wasn't. The point being: if you >show any signs of being different as an adolescent, you are *strongly* >discouraged from exploring who you are at best, and heavily influenced to >hate and loathe things that may or may not be fundamental to who you are >before oyu even get a chance to know... > >It seems to me Patty's intention was to convey the intense pain of Tony, >and cruelty of the world toward "difference" of any kind. It never has >mattered to me whether he was gay or not. > >Patty is even clever enough to point out the way there is a slot in every >community (at least one slot) waiting for "the local fag"... "death comes >to the local fag" is like: well, you know our town has a pathetic, lost >adolescent who everyone thought was gay, and he shot himself--there's the >proof..." > >to me, that just shows the mercilessness of the socital paradigm of >conformity: i.e., Tony couldn't be "fat" and different" w/o being picked >on, and then he's "the tormented homosexual boy who killed himself" in "the >local rag..." Tony probably wasn't even sure of who Tony was. > >That's why it's damn brilliant, I think! (Especially acoustic at the Iron >Horse in Northhampton) > >Han > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:35:57 EDT From: Flakeybird@aol.com Subject: MM: Re: mad-mission-digest V3 #148 In a message dated 5/19/99 5:00:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org writes: << I definitely feel the same way. I met her last week when she performed in Pontiac, MI. She seemed if as she would rather be having all her teeth pulled out rather than been meeting her fans. She really was attempting to be gracious, but I don't think she is good at faking it. As I talked with her about being an aspiring musician her eyes lit up a bit--but I still don't think she is comfortable at all with dealing with fans. Stephanie >> Wow, that wasn't my experience at all. She actually started getting pretty wacky with Dave and I, posing in dancing postures for the camera and having very easy conversations about cold remedies and voice coaches and Patty Stock. Of couse, I'm pretty wacky myself and probably got her "in the mood". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:42:33 -0400 From: lgrady@LNMTA.bentley.edu Subject: MM: Patty at Newport Hi All! I'm behind on reading my patty digests, so I don't know if this has been discussed or not, but... Patty is playing at Newport Folk! There are lots of other great artists on the the list - catie Curtis, Martin Sexton, and the Indigo Girls, to just name a few... Check out their website - www.newportfolk.com I went last year for the first time - we only went for one day, and had a good time - the crowd, traffic, and walk to the site was overwhelming - but there's lots of great music, and the festival is help up against the side of an old fort overlooking the water - it's a nice place to spend a day or two! We're planning on making a weekend of it this year - hope to see some of you there! Laurel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:00:28 -0500 From: "James P" Subject: MM: confused!! If " Life is stories and stories include all kinds of people!! " that includes homosexuals, not all of whom like to be referred to as "queer". That word still means strange and I am not strange. I just like boy crotch and not girl crotch. Okay, someone, anyone, please clarify something for me. There IS a field of academia called "queer studies," right? I just read a book by Alexander Doty called _Making Things Perfectly Queer_ which is about "queer" representations/readings/narratives in television. Doty has trouble explaining the term "queer" himself but uses it as a blanket term (even though he says that's what he's trying to avoid) to be all inclusive when discussing someone or a group who is/are non-straight. He does acknowledge that it is still a painful word to some but that organizations such as Queer Nation are, as Han said, reclaiming it. So what do I say when I talk about "queer" issues? I really don't want to have to say or type out "gay/lesbian/bi-sexual/transgender/etc...." Is there another blanket term used among this community that is non-offensive (although I realize that many are perfectly comfortable with it)? I plan to do several studies in the future of "queer" representations in film and I would like to know what an appropriate term would be. And please, no one tell me "can't we all just be called human" because that does not work in the field of cultural studies and serves no purpose in clarifying the issue. -Cristina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:37:00 -0400 From: "Gould, Rachel L." Subject: RE: MM: what do you all think this really means... "if you had the real thing how would you tell, liars can say it all just as well every single word you've heard in vain." it's a great song, but a friend of mine says she has an issue with this line. what do you think it is saying and/or means? ********************************************************************** This email message and any files transmitted with it are subject to attorney-client privilege and contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom this email message is addressed. If you have received this email message in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone or email and destroy the original message without making a copy. Thank you. Testa, Hurwitz & Thibeault, LLP tel:617-248-7000 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:33:49 -0400 From: "Darren" Subject: RE: MM: what do you all think this really means... I sometimes take things a bit too much at face value, but it appears to me that this means someone is lying to someone by leading them on, letting them believe that this person is in love with them. Saying all the right things, writing all the right letters, planning the perfect rendezvous, all just to keep this person under his/her spell in order to command devotion, when it is not reciprocated. What is your friends "issue"? >"if you had the real thing how would you tell, liars can say it all just as >well >every single word you've heard in vain." >it's a great song, but a friend of mine says she has an issue with this >line. what do you think it is saying and/or means? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:54:22 PDT From: "Sean Palen" Subject: RE: MM: what do you all think this really means... Christina Onasis was extremely rich and had many gentlemen callers after her money, thus this line, thus ... love letters and none of them true, thus most of the song. Take it easy Sean >From: "Darren" >To: "Mad Mission" >Subject: RE: MM: what do you all think this really means... >Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:33:49 -0400 > >I sometimes take things a bit too much at face value, but it appears to me >that this means someone is lying to someone by leading them on, letting >them >believe that this person is in love with them. Saying all the right >things, >writing all the right letters, planning the perfect rendezvous, all just to >keep this person under his/her spell in order to command devotion, when it >is not reciprocated. > > >What is your friends "issue"? > > > > >"if you had the real thing how would you tell, liars can say it all just >as > >well > >every single word you've heard in vain." > > > >it's a great song, but a friend of mine says she has an issue with this > >line. what do you think it is saying and/or means? > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:12:33 EDT From: NuAgeThnkr@aol.com Subject: Re: MM: what do you all think this really means... In a message dated 5/20/99 3:39:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, GOULD@tht.com writes: << "if you had the real thing how would you tell, liars can say it all just as well every single word you've heard in vain." it's a great song, but a friend of mine says she has an issue with this line. what do you think it is saying and/or means? >> I think the best songs mean something different and specific for everyone that hears it, so I'm if your friend has an "issue" with some lyric, the "issue" is probably some connection to something they're uncomfortable with in their own life... but that being said... My opinion (and it may be completely off-base) is that Christina is about Christina Onassis (or some similar Christina) who grew up in a situation where her money and station in life put her in a position where it was difficult to determine if someone honestly loved "her" or loved what she represented (money, fame, etc.)... thus other lines like "Everyone's paid well and does what they're told for the simple daughter of a simple man" should ALL be looked at when trying to determine what the song is about... Christina Onassis was surrounded by people purported to be interested in "her best interests", some claiming to love her, but in actuality she never found happiness, and eventually killed herself... In relation to the previous postings this last week or so, it takes on particular importance for artists gaining notoriety--Patty has switched from the "regular Joe" who could determine if someone's attention was directed at her because of "her" to the position where now she has to wonder if someone is paying attention to her because of her celebrityhood... and in that way I'm sure she finds common ground with someone like the "Christina" of the song, whoever it may be... All that aside, the academic, critical evaluation of lyrics (like paintings and other forms of art), though sort of interesting and fun, defeats the purpose of art--which is to make you feel... So, even though I took the time to post these observations, I don't agree that dissection is always a good thing for art, unless after all the cutting, dicing, and evaluation, you can put it all aside and just experience the art... I think you're friend should accept whatever happens with the song, and enjoy the feeling that arises with it--whether it be joy or pain--taking the time to feel it completely and everything in their life that seems attached... and they'll find themselves to be a richer person because of the experience. - --Keith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:53:21 -0400 (EDT) From: shoes Subject: MM: Re: copying tapes hi all.. this is in response to rachel's post about copying tapes.. i guess i'm guilty of the very thing i'm defending, so i'll just say that up front, i *have* asked for people to copy stuff for me. but in fairness, i've also done a lot of dubbing for other people, on this list as well as another. in my own humble opinion, i think sharing boots is cool, a great way to spread rare covers, live tracks, and unreleased songs that so many patty fans would not otherwise hear. also, IMOHO, i don't think it's cool to charge people for this... as long as the sweet soul who does the work doesn't have to pay anything out of pocket, it seems fair. and eventually the good deed comes back to them some way or another... maybe by having someone else dub something for them. maybe if these posts get to be too common on the list and people don't want to read them, we could set up something else so everyone wouldn't have to read them all time..? i don't know, i'd just hate to see a stop put to the sharing of bootlegs, under whatever terms each individual wants to have for themselves... :) peace circles and circles again, chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:07:58 -0700 From: hilah@ix.netcom.com Subject: MM: Tony w/etymology Hello All, um, let's see. i reckon "does it matter if tony was gay or a geek" could have been the title of my original question posting. hereby hope to say outloud, gee, yes and no. no in that the song is powerful independent of our understanding of t's sexuality and at the same time yes, in that reference to sexuality as a personal/political reality/topic is a fundamental consideration to many of us and it is compelling to think that the song could specifically, in the t is gay case, represent some crucial concerns. this is what i've gathered from the interactions. i am sorry if i somehow conveyed that the song was "less powerful" for the possibility of t being het or of unknown, (to him or us) disposition. to me these interactions prove the song is wellmade for its multifaceted possibilities along these lines. certainly patty didn't have to be a boy or gay to note her retrospective communion with t. wellmade song. sung well. i am thankful for it. and was just curious that i had "missed' the implicit t is gay aspect that many seemed to assume in their posts. and so i asked. and so. perhaps the following will be of some interest: fag. n. 1. A cigarette. cW.W. I use, seldom heard now. (note: except in Britain). 2. A homosexual; an effeminate man; since c1940 specif. a male homosexual. Common since c1920. It has been suggested that "fag"=homosexual comes from "fag"=cigarette, since cigarettes were considered effeminate by cigar and pipe smokers when they were first introduced at the end of W.W. I. Although this may have been reinforced by the use of the word "fag"=a boy servant or boy lackey has been common use since before 1830. fag along. to ride fast. cowboy use. the above from c1969 dictionary. and so the cigar renaissance etc. with women encouraged to join in, have some cojones and so forth. and so. the fin de siecle. ok well so long, senor seth. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:45:17 EDT From: Jindh@aol.com Subject: Re: MM: confused!! i go to wesleyan university- i just finished my first year and was/am active in the 'queer' community. i never gave thought to the blanket term because it's cool to be queer- it's cool to have green hair which is not normal, it's cool to wear white face paint and black clothes and that's not normal. and of course there's the fact that ani is an icon of the 'queer' community and many artists define themselves as queer. recently my girlfriend and i had a huge discussion about queer issues and the queer community and she tried to explain the complexity of the term. she took queer studies which informed her that queer is all about a lack of definition. perhaps the term does not ecompass everyone, perhaps transgendered people cannot belong to one group: we discussed the difference between leslie feinberg- who began passing because she was being seriouslly physically and emotionally oppressed by society when she wasn't passing- and a girl who just really feels as though she's a boy and is thus perpetuating gender stereotypes and labels which the 'queer' community is supposedly working to break down. thus, people are not all united in their personal politics and the queer community does not pretend to represent all of our concerns. anyway, my conclusion is that... just as transgendered or straight does not speak for the politics of every single person in that group, queer too is just an umbrella for 'not straight'. ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V3 #152 *********************************