From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V3 #149 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.spectra.net/~ducksoup/pattyg/patttyg.htm * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com * then click "tour" and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Wednesday, May 19 1999 Volume 03 : Number 149 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: MM: A Question At The end of the Paragraph ["Gould, Rachel L." ] Re: MM: A Question At The end of the Paragraph [rblack1@io.com (Ronda B.)] MM: NPC: "What's the world coming to?" -- A Question At The end of the Paragraph [Wendy J ] [Fwd: MM: Was Tony Gay?] [hilah@ix.netcom.com] MM: RE:Was Tony Gay ["Shelley Miller" ] MM: Live Tapes [Packiderm@aol.com] MM: NPC: No requests policy [EveryLittleBit@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:59:00 -0400 From: "Gould, Rachel L." Subject: Re: MM: A Question At The end of the Paragraph not everything is an attack or a vindictive stereotype. that's the problem with e-mail i guess. i'm not speaking for wendy, but the way i read her e-mail was not in a manner that i found offensive (and i'm not saying you should feel the same way i do, i'm just stating my opinion as did you). i can understand where wendy is coming from. it always puts a little more curve in my smile when i see people i assume (which is probably a fault of mine) to be "straight" (whatever that really is) holding hands, kissing, what-not. it's always a pleasant surprise when your "gaydar" doesn't pick everything up. and yes, there is a society defined stereotype of people who are gay/lesbian which makes it all the more appealing when society's definition of how a "queer" individual should look/act is completely off. it's an act of dismantling extreme definitions, and i think it is pretty cool when i see individuals i perceive to be straight outside of that societal element. i took wendy's post as sincere, and by no means should you take this reply as an attack. i completely respect your opinion and feelings, i just think that wendy's e-mail was taken the wrong way. again, it's a huge problem when conversing with people you don't really know over e-mail. [again i hope no one takes reads this e-mail with a disillusioned tone. i don't mean to disrespect anyone's opinions or feelings, i just wanted to add my own.] take care. ---------- Judy Lev wrote: this is a bit irritating....... can someone say stereotype? i could go on and say many things explaining why this comment irritated me, but I think I should just leave it alone..... i'm not sure why its necessary for you to judge these "gap/j-crew looking guys" and then decide that they are "cute" if they're gay?????? what has the world come to? ********************************************************************** This email message and any files transmitted with it are subject to attorney-client privilege and contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom this email message is addressed. If you have received this email message in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone or email and destroy the original message without making a copy. Thank you. Testa, Hurwitz & Thibeault, LLP tel:617-248-7000 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:03:31 -0700 From: "Laine Proctor" Subject: MM: rainbow patty? For the record, I am a lesbian and a huge Patty fan also (is there a pattern emerging here?). I agree with the other posts that many gay, bi, lesbian, etc. people probably identify with the emotion and grit in Patty's music. I was blown away when I heard Tony because you don't hear many artists who are trying to achieve commercial success singing about gay issues in such plain terms. But, I loved Patty way before I heard that song. I do, however, as someone else pointed out, have an abundance of female musicians in my music collection. That might be a contributing factor as far as the number of women who like her, but I can't really say. I don't think my sexuality necessarily affects my taste in music. As far as Patty being a "voice for gays", I would say that writing a song like Tony would cause many people to see her as such (even people who don't love her music) because there are so few songs that deal with such issue - especially gay teen suicide, which is a very real and massive problem in the U.S.A. Seeing her in that light is probably more of a political thing than a strictly musical things. Of course, some people really identify with musicians because of their politics, and some musicians are pretty famous for them (Ani, Bonnie Raitt). I'm not saying that that was Patty's intention. In fact, I think she was just singing about a sad thing that happened and relating it to how stifling and horrible high school was for her (and a lot of other people) . But, the song is very raw and intense, and for me, as a gay person, I am very glad that it is out there and someone who has the fame (and vast potential for even greater fame) as Patty is talking about it. You won't see me waving a rainbow flag with Patty's face on it, but I do think she did a great thing! Patty is a Goddess! Later, Laine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:13:03 -0500 From: rblack1@io.com (Ronda B.) Subject: Re: MM: A Question At The end of the Paragraph Wow, Judy, this is really harsh. I liked Wendy's post and don't think it said anything horrible. Since when did saying they looked like "JCrew guys" become offensive? There's a number of ways that could be taken. Lighten up. Ronda At 03:30 PM 5/19/99 -0500, Judy Lev wrote: >Okay.... > >Wendy J wrote: > >> " I was particularly >> touched when I saw her last winter in georgetown and >> these two very gap/j-crew looking guys who I assumed >> were straight preppy college kids put their arms >> around each other and started swaying back and forth >> when she played "sweet lorraine." it was so cute!" > >this is a bit irritating....... can someone say stereotype? i could go >on and say many things explaining why this comment irritated me, but I >think I should just leave it alone..... i'm not sure why its necessary >for you to judge these "gap/j-crew looking guys" and then decide that >they are "cute" if they're gay?????? what has the world come to? > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:14:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Wendy J Subject: MM: NPC: "What's the world coming to?" -- A Question At The end of the Paragraph Hmm...a very good point! I guess I should clarify by saying that the guys would've been "cute" whether they were gay or not, but I found them to be particularly "cute" after realizing that they were together and seemed to be in love. It was a sweet moment. I was surprised and touched and in awe to see two men being affectionate in public. It's a rare thing given the hateful climate we live in. {Remember the vehemently anti-gay Matthew Shepard killing? Remember how the media was at first so quick to label the Columbine High School killers as disgruntled and alientated "gay" youth just because the kids in school called them "fags?" --- Perhaps that answers Judy's question, "What is the world coming to?"} I called them "cute" b/c they were taking a real chance by being openly affectionate in a part of town that is definitely NOT known for its tolerance, never mind kindness, towards queers. I called them cute because it's nice to see examples of my own life on display....just as it must be nice for straight people to plan a bridal shower for a coworker, or to admire another's wedding ring, or to gripe about the in-laws. So did I find them more "cute" becayse I realized they were gay, and, to me, much MORE than merely a buncha straight, preppy, white kids from an elite Catholic college scoping out girls at a concert? you bet yer ass i did. - -- Judy Lev wrote: > Okay.... > > Wendy J wrote: > > > " I was particularly > > touched when I saw her last winter in georgetown > and > > these two very gap/j-crew looking guys who I > assumed > > were straight preppy college kids put their arms > > around each other and started swaying back and > forth > > when she played "sweet lorraine." it was so cute!" > > this is a bit irritating....... can someone say > stereotype? i could go > on and say many things explaining why this comment > irritated me, but I > think I should just leave it alone..... i'm not sure > why its necessary > for you to judge these "gap/j-crew looking guys" and > then decide that > they are "cute" if they're gay?????? what has the > world come to? > > > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:24:55 -0400 From: "Luca, Joseph" Subject: MM: Living Room Tour Howdy. I'm not really sure how relevant this is anymore, but I'm including a snippet from a February '98 post to this list: "I finally saw Patty for the first time in Providence a couple of weeks ago; she was, as expected, awe-inspiring. She was also quite friendly and accessible after the show. After raving to her, I said, `I have three words for you: Living Room Tour.' She said that she had heard that rumor from her manager, but that she herself hadn't started the rumor. As for whether it would happen, she said, `We'll see.' So we can still hope." All I can add now is that during this exchange, Patty didn't seem distressed or intimidated by or uncomfortable with the notion of a living-room show (although neither did she express unbridled enthusiasm). Nonetheless, while it would be an incredible event, I don't get the feeling-based on the management direction she seems to be getting, and her burgeoning popularity-that it's going to happen. But it sure would be nice. Ciao, Joe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:24:14 -0700 From: hilah@ix.netcom.com Subject: [Fwd: MM: Was Tony Gay?] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------C32D5EAC60ABDAA695DE2B11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --------------C32D5EAC60ABDAA695DE2B11 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <374347D1.836A9B97@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:22:57 -0700 From: hilah@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Laine Proctor Subject: Re: MM: Was Tony Gay? References: <199905192101.RAA24862@smoe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all: Question: is tony a song about gay suicide? i ask because i didn't hear it that way. i am all too familiar with the term "faggot" being applied somewhat generically to boys and men who didn't quite represent the prevailing american (+british and more for all i know) stereotype of a Man. growing up in new england i found this term regularly applied to heteroboys and even sometimes girls, "drama fag" being widely used for those who were in plays, played music, and didn't engage in the socially lubricated sports programs. even amidst certain segments of the sporting community boys would episodically call each other "faggot" as what seemed to be a synonym for "weakling" or "oversensitive" (or sensitive at all, or even conscious). gymnasts were often fags to wrestlers etc. i recognize these are generalties, yet i think they accurately represent the context i was familiar with. i maybe too quickly put patty in new england and heard her reference to tony as seeing himself as a faggot, as seeing himself as he found others to see him, ie in a derogatory way. the fact that he was always finishing homework, raising his hand, pledging allegiance etc. struck me as enough to earn the title of faggot where i came from, independent of sexual orientation. like Wendy J mentioned, faggot as used by the highschoolers in colorado didn't mean gay, per se. i know i'm confused, but am i confused about this too? was tony gay? s. Laine Proctor wrote: > For the record, I am a lesbian and a huge Patty fan also (is there a pattern > emerging here?). I agree with the other posts that many gay, bi, lesbian, > etc. people probably identify with the emotion and grit in Patty's music. I > was blown away when I heard Tony because you don't hear many artists who are > trying to achieve commercial success singing about gay issues in such plain > terms. But, I loved Patty way before I heard that song. I do, however, as > someone else pointed out, have an abundance of female musicians in my music > collection. That might be a contributing factor as far as the number of > women who like her, but I can't really say. I don't think my sexuality > necessarily affects my taste in music. As far as Patty being a "voice for > gays", I would say that writing a song like Tony would cause many people to > see her as such (even people who don't love her music) because there are so > few songs that deal with such issue - especially gay teen suicide, which is > a very real and massive problem in the U.S.A. Seeing her in that light is > probably more of a political thing than a strictly musical things. Of > course, some people really identify with musicians because of their > politics, and some musicians are pretty famous for them (Ani, Bonnie Raitt). > I'm not saying that that was Patty's intention. In fact, I think she was > just singing about a sad thing that happened and relating it to how stifling > and horrible high school was for her (and a lot of other people) . But, the > song is very raw and intense, and for me, as a gay person, I am very glad > that it is out there and someone who has the fame (and vast potential for > even greater fame) as Patty is talking about it. You won't see me waving a > rainbow flag with Patty's face on it, but I do think she did a great thing! > Patty is a Goddess! > > Later, > Laine - --------------C32D5EAC60ABDAA695DE2B11-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:47:53 PDT From: "Shelley Miller" Subject: MM: RE:Was Tony Gay >>faggot as used by the highschoolers in colorado didn't mean gay, per se. I don't know that I'd agree with this. Even when the term is used in reference to someone who is perceived straight-but-not-fitting-"normal"-hetero-standards, it is still based on the stereotypes about gay men...I don't think that the slight against gays is any less because it is addressed to someone who is straight...its like saying to a boy, "You throw like a girl." The underlying assumption is that girls are weak, or that girls can't throw as hard as boys...to put down one group of people (or one individual), the person speaking compares him to someone/a group of someones that (the speaker thinks/assumes) is inferior. >i know i'm confused, but am i confused about this too? was tony gay? I think he was, but that's my opinion. He could very well have been an outsider who didn't fit the gender roles/traits expected of him by those around him. In either case, its still the fear and hatred of the "other", of "different" being "bad", of rigid gender roles that too often define who is "in" or "out" in middle school or high school. My 2 cents. Peace, Shelley _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:19:20 EDT From: Packiderm@aol.com Subject: MM: Live Tapes I am very interested in trading for live and unreleased Patty Griffin tapes. I have a few radio performances of Patty's and hundreds of hours of stuff from other related artists to offer in trade. Please send me your lists. Troy Packiderm@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:30:12 EDT From: EveryLittleBit@aol.com Subject: MM: NPC: No requests policy A couple of the other lists I'm on instituted a semi-official policy about writing to the list requesting live tapes. The basic premise was that the best way to get copies of tapes is to make friends with other list members, and then get tapes from them. It was partly a security issue for the artists- tape traders who sell the live tapes could sign on the list, ask for tapes, get some nice soul to offer them, then sign back off and make money off of it. If the people had to make friends to get these tapes, it was kind of a check to make sure they were really fans. I know that's an unlikely scenario, but it did help form lots of relationships. People wh posted about getting copies of live tapes would recieve replys from people on the list encouraging them to make friends and stick around, kind of to "earn" the tapes. Hey, if they're fans they'll stick around anyway, right?I personally have been on this list for it's entire lifespan, and I've never posted asking for a tape, but I've made friends and gotten around 5-10 concerts (no, I don't have dubbing materials, so I can't make copies, before anyone asks!). Does anyone have an opinion about instituting such a policy here? Sure, Patty's tapes won't make much money for tape traders now, but they may soon. And we're not that big of a community yet, so it may not be that big of a hassle, but I always have to stop myself from writing to people and asking them not to ask for tapes on the list. It always seems kind of rude to me- but that's just because of the policy on every other list I'm on. What do you guys think? Am I way off base? Rachel:D ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V3 #149 *********************************