From: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org (mad-mission-digest) To: mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Subject: mad-mission-digest V2 #377 Reply-To: mad-mission@smoe.org Sender: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-mad-mission-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * mad-mission-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Patty's tour dates, go to: * http://www.spectra.net/~ducksoup/pattyg/patttyg.htm * OR * go to http://www.amrecords.com * then click "tour" and fill in the blanks :) * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. mad-mission-digest Thursday, December 10 1998 Volume 02 : Number 377 Today's Subjects: ----------------- MM: Right on sister Heather! [Howard Howard ] MM: Right on sister Heather! [Howard Howard ] MM: RE: Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #375 Expletive Etiquette [Mark Cicero] MM: indoctrination [Wendy J ] Re: MM: indoctrination [rblack1@io.com (Ronda Blacksher)] Re: MM: indoctrination [Joshua Lilley ] Re: MM: indoctrination ["J. Pruitt / C. Minter" ] RE: MM: indoctrination [rblack1@io.com (Ronda Blacksher)] MM: Patty/Tony [Joshua Lilley ] MM: Patty/Lucinda/recording? [Joshua Lilley ] Re: MM: indoctrination [Clavin Girl ] MM: Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #376 [Heather Swain ] Re: MM: indoctrination [Peter Dangerfield ] RE: MM: indoctrination [Margaret Cvercko ] RE: MM: RE: Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #375 Expletive Etiquette [Peter D] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 23:30:06 -0800 (PST) From: Howard Howard Subject: MM: Right on sister Heather! Right on sister Heather! Sing out sister, pass the ammunition. Howard _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:26:36 +0800 (SGT) From: Howard Howard Subject: MM: Right on sister Heather! Right on sister Heather! Sing out sister, pass the ammunition. Howard _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:59:01 -0600 From: Mark Cicero Subject: MM: RE: Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #375 Expletive Etiquette Heather writes:"I'm really confused about is this facist attitude here in regards to the intollerance of freedom of experssion displayed by this group of Patty Griffin fans". "I mean,frankly, you are sensoring someone's freedom of expression, a fundamental right to all Americans". Mark responds: Heather, Nobody is censoring Howard. He can say what ever is on his mind and in any manner he chooses. But by the same token, we don't have to like it and the same considerations that you would like us to extend Howard should be extended to those whose views of proper netiquette differ. When anyone posts anything to a public forum they can safely anticapate three responses. Some will agree, some will not and some won't care. Email lists have a way of govering themselves based on the responses of the participants. It has been my experience that it's usually not "what" you say, but "how" you say it. Don't get the wrong impression of the people on this list. We are not easily catagorized. Most of us are good decent people with a strong intest in Patty's music. But, just as in the real world, if you get enough people together in one place the percentages dictate that you'll have your fair share of jerks as well. So hang in there. Regards, Mark Nashville,TN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:56:41 +1100 (EST) From: Wendy J Subject: MM: indoctrination Greetings from Washington, D.C.! i'm a new member to this list and have a burning (pun intended) question: what do you all make of the line "call up a best friend who is a queer" in the song Moses? Is patty being sarcastic? PC? homophobic? ironic? or was it simply a convenient rhyme? - ---Mark Cicero wrote: > > Heather writes:"I'm really confused about is this facist attitude here in > regards to the intollerance of freedom of experssion displayed by this group > of Patty Griffin fans". > > "I mean,frankly, you are sensoring someone's freedom of expression, a > fundamental right > to all Americans". > > > Mark responds: > > Heather, > > Nobody is censoring Howard. He can say what ever is on his mind and in any > manner he chooses. But by the same token, we don't have to like it and the > same considerations that you would like us to extend Howard should be > extended to those whose views of proper netiquette differ. When anyone > posts anything to a public forum they can safely anticapate three responses. > Some will agree, some will not and some won't care. Email lists have a way > of govering themselves based on the responses of the participants. It has > been my experience that it's usually not "what" you say, but "how" you say > it. > > Don't get the wrong impression of the people on this list. We are not > easily catagorized. Most of us are good decent people with a strong intest > in Patty's music. But, just as in the real world, if you get enough people > together in one place the percentages dictate that you'll have your fair > share of jerks as well. > > So hang in there. > > Regards, > Mark > Nashville,TN > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:25:25 -0600 From: rblack1@io.com (Ronda Blacksher) Subject: Re: MM: indoctrination Hi Wendy. Welcome! Well, I don't think it's homophobia - she's her "best friend" (not that necessarily implies the absence of such ... but anyway ...). However that line strikes me the same way the song 'Tony' off of Flaming Red does. My interpretation is that Patty is calling attention to the subject sympathetically - "I knew that story; I was sitting right behind you" - but she seems to do it in a mildly strange way. Let's face it, the word queer isn't the preferred term (at least as far as I've ever known). Maybe I've missed posts - but does anyone know where 'Tony' came from? Is it a real account? Anyone ever heard any comments on it from PG? Regards from Austin, Ronda Wendy J wrote: have a burning (pun intended) >question: > >what do you all make of the line "call up a best friend who is a >queer" in the song Moses? > >Is patty being sarcastic? PC? homophobic? ironic? >or was it simply a convenient rhyme? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:06:54 -0600 (CST) From: Joshua Lilley Subject: Re: MM: indoctrination Ronda Tony is a part fictional account based some on a real person. I don't think the "suicide" story is related to anyone specific (other than anyone of the many gay/teen/adult suicides), but the song itself, as I recall reading from the list somewheres...is based on a some one. And as far as the "faggot" word in Tony, I've always felt that she in no way is using it to hurt, but instead to say that when Tony looked in the mirror all he could see was the "Faggot" everyone had always told him he was...and along with that came a lot of negative and hate-filled perspectives. If some one tells you negatively that you are ugly, stupid, clumsy (fill in blank) all your life and they never focus on the good in your character, only attack you with social slurs, only put you down, only hurt you, and no one is ever there to tell you how wonderful you are, then eventually, maybe you would only see things from there negative perspective to...and you'd convince yourself that you are (fill in blank). People called him a little faggot forever, and eventually that was all he could see as well. No one ever helped him feel that his being gay was all right. "I guess you finally stopped believing that any hope would ever find you. I knew that story, I was sitting right behind you." Clearly she feels and defends. Joshua ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:07:20 -0800 From: "J. Pruitt / C. Minter" Subject: Re: MM: indoctrination I've thought about this one too as the word "fag" makes me cringe. I think that's the reaction that Patty is trying to evoke, though. "Fag" and "fagget" are very harsh words and they show the real hate that is behind homophobia. It shows the hate that Tony felt for himself for being gay. Like Patty sings, he looks and sees only "that little fagget staring back at him." He's incoporated everyone else's hate for homosexuals and internalized it. Cristina - -----Original Message----- From: Ronda Blacksher To: Wendy J ; mad-mission@smoe.org Date: Thursday, December 10, 1998 11:46 AM Subject: Re: MM: indoctrination >Hi Wendy. Welcome! Well, I don't think it's homophobia - she's her "best >friend" (not that necessarily implies the absence of such ... but anyway >...). However that line strikes me the same way the song 'Tony' off of >Flaming Red does. My interpretation is that Patty is calling attention to >the subject sympathetically - "I knew that story; I was sitting right behind >you" - but she seems to do it in a mildly strange way. Let's face it, the >word queer isn't the preferred term (at least as far as I've ever known). > >Maybe I've missed posts - but does anyone know where 'Tony' came from? Is >it a real account? Anyone ever heard any comments on it from PG? > >Regards from Austin, > >Ronda >Wendy J wrote: >have a burning (pun intended) >>question: >> >>what do you all make of the line "call up a best friend who is a >>queer" in the song Moses? >> >>Is patty being sarcastic? PC? homophobic? ironic? >>or was it simply a convenient rhyme? > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:07:46 -0600 From: rblack1@io.com (Ronda Blacksher) Subject: RE: MM: indoctrination Implies proximity ... and I take it as "Geez, I was right there - couldn't I have done something"??? Certainly, you can take any term and make it friendly - even faggot (Sorry Cristina!) - but doesn't necessarily mean Patty is using it that way. She's depressed when she says her best friend's a queer. I don't think she meant it in the Queer Nation kind of way. I myself am not offended by the term either - but every once in awhile I'll be in the car with someone hearing 'Tony' for the first time, and I'll wonder if they get it ... at all. At 03:22 PM 12/10/98 -0500, Margaret Cvercko wrote: >Ah yes, but what does "sitting right behind you" actually mean? > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:33:38 -0600 (CST) From: Joshua Lilley Subject: MM: Patty/Tony Hmmm....what does "sitting right behind" you actually mean? I'm not sure. There is the literal translation but... I recall a highscool acquaintance of Patty's posting about how amazed he is that this woman who came froma part of the country that presented her little hope of "making it" is now on the brink of major superstardom. That makes me wonder what more he could tell us about the town Patty is from and Maine. Given one of those really small town scenarios, we could feel inclined to say that any anti-gay feelings were pretty intense. And, I think that Patty attended a Catholic Highschool. Is that correct? If it is, then...jeez..imagine being gay in small town and going to a Catholic school...with priests and what-not and all those religious ideas being discussed every day. So...I'm not sure if it is clear, but maybe the "I knew that story , i was sitting right behind you" has to do with patty feeling kinda pained by the smalltown/little hope of getting out of it/Religious school/ all i want to do is sing...scenario. So, she in turned felt hindered, felt maybe she couldn't be what she felt she was...a singer, a songwriter. I doubt people were very supportive of her dreams...She "hated everyday of highschool" afterall...so I guess she also "stopped believing that any hope would ever find {her}". Anyone? But, let me just conclude by saying that I feel suddenly like I'm intruding...even though she has shared with us these things through her music...I suddenly get the wiggins writing about her private life.... Josh (running fast away from his computer....) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:46:55 -0600 (CST) From: Joshua Lilley Subject: MM: Patty/Lucinda/recording? Hello... TO EVERYONE WHO HAS MAILED ME, REQUESTING A COPY OF THE PATTY/LUCINDA/KGSR SHOW.....I've lost track of who has my addy and who don't. So, word to your mother and here it is... josh 119 Blanco San Marcos, TX 78666 Happy holidays... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 06:49:03 +1100 (EST) From: Clavin Girl Subject: Re: MM: indoctrination - ---Wendy J wrote: what do you all make of the line "call up a best friend who is a queer" in the song Moses? Is patty being sarcastic? PC? homophobic? ironic? or was it simply a convenient rhyme? - ----------------------------------------------------- My guess would be ironic. I know I thought so when I heard it - fit in with my life a little too well! ;) == And I wonder what of this will have meaning for you when you've left it all behind. I think I'll even wonder if you meant it at the time... -- Ani DiFranco _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:40:21 -0600 From: Heather Swain Subject: MM: Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #376 Hey, Thanks to all of you who responded to my email. Now I'm a little cleared on what's happening here. I also have been reading some previous stuff and you all know so much about what's going on. It's great! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:33:21 -0500 From: Margaret Cvercko Subject: MM: RE: indoctrination I think that maybe, and I could be going out on a limb here, she actually had a best friend who was/is a queer. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 98 14:07:22 -0600 From: Peter Dangerfield Subject: Re: MM: indoctrination Re: MM: indoctrination 12/10/= 98 As a gay man, I don't consider "queer" a slur, and to be honest -- it = rhymes with beer! And to me, her use of the word faggot in "Tony" showed = the self hatred that Tony had for himself -- "looked in the mirror saw = that little faggot staring back." Patty seems to me to write about gay = themes with great sensitivity. rblack1 wrote: >Hi Wendy. Welcome! Well, I don't think it's homophobia - she's her "= best >friend" (not that necessarily implies the absence of such ... but anyway >...). However that line strikes me the same way the song 'Tony' off of >Flaming Red does. My interpretation is that Patty is calling attention = to >the subject sympathetically - "I knew that story; I was sitting right = behind >you" - but she seems to do it in a mildly strange way. Let's face it, = the >word queer isn't the preferred term (at least as far as I've ever known). = = > >Maybe I've missed posts - but does anyone know where 'Tony' came from? = Is >it a real account? Anyone ever heard any comments on it from PG? > >Regards from Austin, > >Ronda = >Wendy J wrote: >have a burning (pun intended) >>question: >> = >>what do you all make of the line "call up a best friend who is a >>queer" in the song Moses? >> >>Is patty being sarcastic? PC? homophobic? ironic? >>or was it simply a convenient rhyme? = > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:10:37 -0500 From: Margaret Cvercko Subject: RE: MM: indoctrination I think you guys are taking that line waaaaay too seriously. Both Tony and her "best friend" just happened to be gay men. It actually happens a lot. Or maybe she's just a fag-hag. As far as "queer" not being preferred - None of the labels given to a group of people as labels with intent to ostracize are preferred!!!! But if you use the derogatory terms to refer to yourself and people you care about, then you're making it your's, and not something somebody else's, to use against you. - -----Original Message----- From: rblack1@io.com [mailto:rblack1@io.com] Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 1:25 PM To: Wendy J; mad-mission@smoe.org Subject: Re: MM: indoctrination Hi Wendy. Welcome! Well, I don't think it's homophobia - she's her "best friend" (not that necessarily implies the absence of such ... but anyway ...). However that line strikes me the same way the song 'Tony' off of Flaming Red does. My interpretation is that Patty is calling attention to the subject sympathetically - "I knew that story; I was sitting right behind you" - but she seems to do it in a mildly strange way. Let's face it, the word queer isn't the preferred term (at least as far as I've ever known). Maybe I've missed posts - but does anyone know where 'Tony' came from? Is it a real account? Anyone ever heard any comments on it from PG? Regards from Austin, Ronda Wendy J wrote: have a burning (pun intended) >question: > >what do you all make of the line "call up a best friend who is a >queer" in the song Moses? > >Is patty being sarcastic? PC? homophobic? ironic? >or was it simply a convenient rhyme? ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 98 12:26:37 -0600 From: Peter Dangerfield Subject: RE: MM: RE: Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #375 Expletive Etiquette RE: MM: RE: Re: mad-mission-digest V2 #375 12/10/= 98 I am new on to this list, and in just 2 days I have received enough = pointless, non-Patty e mails to last me through the millenium. Please, if = it has nothing to do with Patty, don't send it -- and spare us all the = wasted time. Mark Cicero wrote: >Heather writes:"I'm really confused about is this facist attitude here in >regards to the intollerance of freedom of experssion displayed by this = group >of Patty Griffin fans". > >"I mean,frankly, you are sensoring someone's freedom of expression, a >fundamental right >to all Americans". > > >Mark responds: > >Heather, = > >Nobody is censoring Howard. He can say what ever is on his mind and in = any >manner he chooses. But by the same token, we don't have to like it and = the >same considerations that you would like us to extend Howard should be >extended to those whose views of proper netiquette differ. When anyone >posts anything to a public forum they can safely anticapate three = responses. >Some will agree, some will not and some won't care. Email lists have a = way >of govering themselves based on the responses of the participants. It = has >been my experience that it's usually not "what" you say, but "how" you = say >it. = > >Don't get the wrong impression of the people on this list. We are not >easily catagorized. Most of us are good decent people with a strong = intest >in Patty's music. But, just as in the real world, if you get enough = people >together in one place the percentages dictate that you'll have your fair >share of jerks as well. > >So hang in there. > >Regards, >Mark = >Nashville,TN = > ------------------------------ End of mad-mission-digest V2 #377 *********************************